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Should I, or should I not, attempt to coach users with reasonable reputation on the merits of closing a duplicate instead of answering it?

I left comments to a user where I attempted to do so, and the user debated with me the merits of closing.

My question is not about the merits of closing duplicates. I believe I am clear on that. It's about the value of attempting to coach users who clearly are building some reputation and investing in the site.

In my comments I pointed the user at the best Meta post I could find about closing as duplicates: Remove the incentive for FGITW to answer well known dupes

Am I wasting my breath? Is this an effort worth making? Do I downvote? Comment? Just cast my close vote and leave? Or something altogether different?

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    IMHO yes. I will normally leave a comment when it is a really blatant dupe. The subtle ones I give them the benefit of the doubt. Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 20:54
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    They don't care. Nobody cares. It's much easier to answer and earn free points than find a dupe, earn nothing and being yelled at because you closed a question. I've tried, and failed. Gold badgers are the worst. But that won't stop me from using my hammer.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 21:05
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    I just wish it was easier to find the duplicates in that little window. I can't find anything, even if the same user already posted the same question verbatim an hour earlier.
    – Laurel
    Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 21:06
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    What @Tunaki said. We can't even train users to do write their own code instead of copying it, do any testing of their own or do any debugging of their own. Getting the 20k+ users to not repwhore is sensibly impossible. Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 22:00
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    From the perspective of a lower-tier VTC'er, finding dupes is easily the hardest part of any close. Unless I'm 100% confident OP's question/code match an existing question, I'm not going to VTC dupe. I'm also not familiar enough with existing questions to know a dupe offhand; I end up looking at the Related list for suggestions. This essentially means, if the existing question doesn't show up in the half-a-dozen Related questions or isn't an obvious enough dupe, I won't VTC on the new question. I'm not sure if there's a good way of improving the system though.
    – cf-
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 4:46
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    As I've said several times before on this topic: If only people could score rep &/or badges for finding dupe targets...
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 7:33
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    @Tunaki: There is also the risk of getting your wrist slapped with a "flag declined" because the duplicate you found wasn't an exact exact duplicate. (Fortunately, most of my not-helpful-enough duplicate flags just age away.) Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 11:22
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    @computerfreaker "finding dupes is easily the hardest part of any close" I have an internal heuristics for it. If I feel the question is so simple that the likelihood it has already been asked is very high, I take the title and google it and if there is another stackoverflow question in the first five search results, I look at if it is a dupe and if it is, I close vote. Isn't very difficult, but takes time and time is valuable. That's the problem. Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 13:32
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    @Trilarion The problem with that is the majority of questions isn't general enough. They often differ in specific details from the dupes, which makes the dupes very hard to find.
    – Mr Lister
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 13:40
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    I think it would be a good start if system would do something like this automagically as explained eg here: "showing a modal popup to the answerer if the question is voted / flagged as duplicate..."
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 21:03
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    How about training people to do basic research before posting questions by giving a considerable punishment for posting dupes..? Downvotes doesn't hurt those who don't care...
    – T J
    Commented May 1, 2016 at 5:09
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    I'll toss out as a general note that the dupe interface is a serious pain on mobile and actively discourages me from finding a duplicate except for one of my standard three or four. Commented May 1, 2016 at 9:12
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    This assumes that you have ready access to a suitable duplicate, which in my experience is not always the case - in fact, it often isn't. I'll recognize the same question asked at least once a week, but still not be able to identify the true original even after weeks or months of seeing the same question (then I'll regret not bookmarking the first I saw). That said, of course I frown on users answering known duplicates, whether they do so by answering with a link to the duplicate, or by straight up stealing the accepted answer for themselves. Especially if they possess close vote privileges.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 1, 2016 at 18:08
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    See Jeff Atwood: Dr. Strangedupe: Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love Duplication Commented May 2, 2016 at 14:48

7 Answers 7

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Your desire to encourage people to look for dupe targets is laudable, but I'd prefer it if you were a little more diplomatic in your approach. Those three comments from you on that answer all have a rather negative tone, and although I can't see the answerer's deleted comments in response, I can imagine that they felt justified in dismissing your criticism simply due to your tone.

(BTW, it's generally not possible for normal users to view deleted comments (except maybe on a cached version of the page, if you're lucky); only diamond mods (and I assume Stack Exchange employees) have access to those).

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic but I believe that people are more likely to accept (and act on) criticism when it's constructive and presented in positive language. OTOH, the persistent offenders are unlikely to change their ways no matter what criticism they receive, or how it's framed.

I must confess that I have posted comments like "Don't you think it might have been a Good Idea to search for an appropriate dupe target before attempting to answer this?" when I see an answer posted to a question that must have been asked many times before, written by someone who's been around SO long enough to know better.

Occasionally I've found myself enthusiastically answering a dupe question, and only after I've posted do I think to myself "Hmmm... maybe I should look for a dupe target for that...". That can happen when it's a slow day and most of the questions are rubbish, and then you see a well-written question with good grammar and spelling; a clear, coherent problem exposition; a properly-formatted MCVE, complete with sample input data and expected output, and an error trace (also nicely formatted); and a summary of the OP's attempts to solve the problem. When you see such a gem how can you resist answering it? :)

Sometimes it's actually quite ok to post an answer to a duplicate question. If the answers in the dupe target apply to the new question but the question itself isn't a close match to the new question, then it can be helpful to give a specific answer to the new question. This is especially true if the OP is clearly new to the language / framework / problem domain, so they may not fully understand how the dupe target applies to their particular situation. Sometimes that can be adequately dealt with in a comment or two on the new question, but not always.

However, that situation is relatively rare compared to the vast number of answers to dupes that get posted by FGITW rep-farmers. New users see people with high rep doing it, so they figure it must be ok, and so they also adopt this undesirable behaviour. But of course those high-rep users would only have a fraction of that rep if they didn't FGITW everything in sight. :(

No amount of persuasion, constructive criticism, or downright insulting language is going to stop such people. The only thing they respond to is rep, and obviously they're happy with their average upvote / downvote ratio. But perhaps they might be persuaded to modify their habits if they could actually earn rep by finding good dupe targets...

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    I appreciate the diplomatic encouragement. As an aside, I tend to be much kinder and more patient with new users, but when someone has over 1k reputation, my response is less patient (although I agree it should always be patient and kind). Ironically, I tend not to give this sort of feedback to users with more rep than I have, I expect that they understand the goal of SO better than I do.... Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 12:33
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    @cale_b Thanks! The newbies may respond to guidance from the old hands with more rep, but the hard core rep-farmers are unlikely to respond positively, and may even retaliate if you criticize them and they suspect you of downvoting their answer. And of course, if the answer is technically correct it shouldn't be punished with downvotes merely for being an answer to a dupe - that distorts the impression that future readers will have of the technical merit of the answer. So I generally try to ignore those answers, and find a good dupe target or two and get the question closed ASAP.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 12:52
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    "But perhaps they might be persuaded to modify their habits if they could actually earn rep by finding good dupe targets..." Or if their contributions would be ahem downvoted. They might not be so happy anymore if the upvote/downvote ratio goes down. Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 13:36
  • @Trilarion: True, although personally, I prefer positive reinforcement to negative, although I suppose a combination approach could work too. I don't think that a purely punitive approach would be good for site morale, as I suspect that a purely punitive has more potential for abuse if it's implemented manually (i.e., via voting). And if it's implemented automatically there's the potential for unwarranted punishment of good answers in those situations where answering a dupe is justifiable.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 13:47
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    @PM2Ring: "But perhaps they might be persuaded to modify their habits if they could actually earn rep by finding good dupe targets..." Let me make this perfectly clear. I do not come to this site to search for duplicates; that's not a thing I want to do. Even if you gave out 200 uncapped rep for every duplicate, I would be no more interested in searching for them than I was before. Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 17:33
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    @Tunaki: That's a problem best solved by changing our technology, not by trying to change users. Improve the searching system so that it implicitly merges duplicates as part of the search, or just explicitly merging duplicates in some way. There are many tech solutions to the issue of duplicates that could be applied. Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 18:30
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    @NicolBolas Automatic duplicate-identification is unlikely to be accurate enough: How many errors would be acceptable, and how to correct them? As to merging, in the case that a new duplicate actually has an answer adding to the master, that's what mod-flags are for. In the vast majority of cases, it would just result in a deluge of duplicate and low-quality answers on dupe-masters. Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 23:43
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    Maybe rather than closing a question as a duplicate, we could find a way to inline answers from other questions, effectively duplicating the question, but showing the answer both places? Commented May 1, 2016 at 5:30
  • @ClausJørgensen: That could be confusing, unless the new question is almost identical to the original. But I guess it could work if it was clear that it was an inlined answer, eg by using a different background colour, and there was an obvious way to link back to the original question. On a related note, when searching for dupe targets if I find a question that's not a close match to the new question but which still has relevant info I mention it in a comment so that it gets added to the "Linked" sidebar. And the new question will also appear in the old question's "Linked" sidebar.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 1, 2016 at 11:03
  • @Claus Jørgensen: I remember seeing a suggestion for this either here or on MSE...
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 1, 2016 at 18:13
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    "then it can be helpful to give a specific answer to the new question. This is especially true if the OP is clearly new to the language / framework / problem domain, so they may not fully understand how the dupe target applies to their particular situation." - YES Commented Nov 1, 2017 at 17:00
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The vast majority of people who come to this website for the purpose of answering questions are not doing so because they enjoy spending 5 minutes using a crappy search engine to look for a duplicate that may not exist. They want to find questions to answer, preferably interesting ones.

Maybe they do it to get a bigger score. Maybe they find the work itself interesting. Maybe they enjoy solving problems, whether it's their own or other people's.

I don't come here to do cleanup work. I don't spend time in the review queue or on other tasks. If I see a crap question, I will downvote and/or close vote as appropriate. But I do not actively seek such questions out.

Similarly, I'm not going to spend a non-trivial amount of time trying to verify if an interesting question has been answered before. If I know a question was asked before, I'll probably search for its duplicate.

But life is way too short to be spent looking for duplicates of every question I see.

If you want to do that, that's wonderful. Just like if you want to spend time with the review queue, I sincerely commend you for your efforts. But these are not things that people should feel they have to do. People should not be punished for providing an answer in good faith.

So no, we should not "train users" to donate their free time doing stuff that they don't want to do.

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    ... or spending 15 minutes using a crappy search engine to look for a duplicate that they know exists (having written it themselves, remember key words and/or phrases and still cannot locate it).
    – user4039065
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 13:17
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    I totally understand the reasoning of this answer. If it's faster and more fun to answer questions instead of searching for possible duplicates then that's what people will do and should do. But nevertheless, there is value in linking duplicates helping future visitors and there is not much value in answering questions that have already been answered wasting resources. So giving incentives for more useful behavior (less/no rep for answering duplicates, giving rep for linking to duplicates) and better technology (easier search for dups) won't hurt either in my opinion. Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 13:42
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    @Trilarion: "less/no rep for answering duplicates" I recognize a difference between answers to broad, opinionated, or generally crap questions and answers to duplicates. In the former case, you can tell from the question alone that it's garbage. In the latter case, the question itself is (in theory) fine; the only problem is that it was already asked. Answering a clearly bad question is acting in bad faith. Answering a not-bad question is acting in good faith. And we should not punish people who are acting in good faith. Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 15:09
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    Stack Overflow is moderated by you.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 17:50
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    @Tunaki: OK, but I don't really see how that's relevant to the discussion. If you want to spend your time looking for duplicates for every question you see, that's fine. But I'm not going to, and there's nothing wrong with that. Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 18:00
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    There is a difference between looking for duplicates for every questions you see (which I perfectly understand that you don't want to do) and answering them when you perfectly know that they are duplicates.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 18:01
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    @Tunaki: Do you have any evidence of that? Can you point to an instance where you are certain that someone had knowledge that a particular question was a duplicate? Even if they actually answered that duplicate question before, you can't be sure they remembered doing so. I operate under the presumption of good faith. So without direct evidence to the contrary, I will assume that if a person answers a question that is later found to be a duplicate, that they did not know it was at the time. Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 18:25
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    @NicolBolas Can you point to an instance where you are certain that someone did not had knowledge that a particular question was a duplicate? This is a pointless question since it is impossible to answer it and you know it perfectly well. So, yes, I assume that, for example, someone that has a gold badge on a tag, they know a little bit about this tag. Search is a thing. You can search. And there are a lot of duplicate questions so this should be step 1. Fun fact: I dupe-closed at least 20 questions today in about 3 hours.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 18:33
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    Easy, take a look at the related questions. Hang around in a tag. Pure example, but if you're saying that someone who has a gold badge cannot tell that a NullPointerException has a very high probability of being a dupe of the canonical, I cannot agree.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 18:39
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    @NicolBolas Yes, a lot of times it comes down to having already seen that question. And this is my point: there are a lot of users (at least in the tag I hang out) that have already seen "that question" and still answer it, even "that question" comes 10 times a day. So this is actually a race between me, closing as duplicate, and other users typing as fast as they can to post an answer.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 18:51
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    @NicolBolas Agree, but a user that wants to participate in a tag, that earns badges in that tag, meaning they are "more trusted" in that tag, have a knowledge of what questions are coming up. And this is my point all along: even though they have that knowledge (or should have it, this is the reputation and badges system that is correlated to "trust" on SO), they do not care and continue to answer.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 18:57
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    @NicolBolas In your tag. Not every questions on SO. And, yes, I believe that if you're trusted in a tag, you should know better and have knowledge of at least some canonicals in this specific tag. Funny you mention that list, a lot of chat rooms (like the Python room) do have such a list. I'm sorry, did you sign up to answer dupes all day long? I don't think so.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 19:03
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    @NicolBolas And I said it before, I do not expect people to dupe-close (which is a form of moderation) the questions that come up. I expect them not to answer when they perfectly have the knowledge that this is a dupe.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 19:07
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    @NicolBolas "Answering a not-bad question is acting in good faith. And we should not punish people who are acting in good faith. " Really? FGITW answers on questions that are highly likely duplicates is acting in good faith while answering on somewhat deficient questions (cases are seldom 100% clear).is acting in bad faith? I think the difference between the two is much smaller than you think. Commented May 1, 2016 at 9:15
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    @Trilarion: "answers on questions that are highly likely duplicates is acting in good faith while answering on somewhat deficient questions (cases are seldom 100% clear).is acting in bad faith?" It's a matter of assumptions. I can look at an question and see if it's bad. I can therefore assume that anyone who answers it can also look at it and see if it's bad. I feel comfortable judging people's judgement in those cases, since we all have the same info. I do not feel comfortable judging whether or not someone knows something not present in the question. IE: whether or not it is a duplicate. Commented May 1, 2016 at 20:27
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Yes, because in the computer science world, we see duplicate code as a bad practice. "Don't Repeat Yourself" is an actual phrase for this acronym: DRY. The reason is that duplicate content creates more long term maintenance work for us to do. It's really frustrating having to change a hyperlinked email address in 100 .html pages using Notepad or some HTML Editor, which doesn't have an automatic search & replace feature that scans multiple nested levels of sub-directories. To fix that... we place code into templates, where we can edit the email address in 1 spot.

In the search engine world, we call duplicated pages... click farms, where the pages are copied repeatedly - usually programmatically - and then linked in a circular referential way. All with the hope of boosting clicks for useless pages of duplicated text. Usually the links are SEM based (not SEO based) & have click tracking codes in them. So the sites want people to click on the links or the bots to click on the links, so that they get paid per click. The only things that those link click farms do is trap bots & annoy people who get stuck there too. So bot writers - like me - have to tune bots to avoid getting stuck in those traps.

Along those same lines... duplicate questions would also be bad, as search engines will contain multiple pages with the exact same set of links. Imagine 10 to 20 links duplicated vertically down the Search Engine Results Page known as a "SERP" & then replicated that content 5-10 pages horizontally. SERPs full of duplicate results are useless to users. We see that problem appear frequently on e-commerce shopping sites, when searching for tech parts in the $100+ range, which also have small consumer items listed in the $1-$10 range. It's a common problem when trying to compare 10-30 listings to find out which company has the cheapest item, when the prices are all over the map. Some are $200. Others $125, Some $300. I don't want to pay a maximum $500 for a part, if I can get it for $110. Not all websites sort them by relevancy to our needs + search terms & by lowest price to highest price. Seeing 15-20 pages of $1 stickers, $5 heat sink glue tubes, $10 transistors is not a fun user experience. What I might be searching for is, who has the cheapest video card for my games? But I don't want card games, board games, old arcade games, nor any little items, which can appear in a checkout aisle... like a rubber red ball + jacks, which is still a sidewalk game.

That's why search engines ding websites for duplicated content. It annoys users. It annoys bot writers... who have the power to ding. It annoys business owners, when their sites disappear from SERPs... as it translates into less revenue for the business owners. So sites which misbehave get dinged on their SEO relevancy scores. Obviously, the owners & developers at Stack Overflow want to avoid that. So they have built the checks & balances into this site, to prevent having their pages get dinged in search engines. When I talk to people at work, they love using this site too... because it's helpful & easy to find real answers, to real problems. It's not a useless spam bot-filled chat room from the early 1990's. Chat rooms used to be good places to ask questions, until they filled up with ANSI & ASCII art.

So YES, tell people that they can only earn 200 reputation per day anyhow. From what I've seen, if an answer is posted & then left on this site for a few years, then reputation gradually increases while doing something else fun in life! Reputation is simply a number. It makes us feel good when someone thanks us for helping them out, but reputation is a number. It's the feeling of being helpful that people like. A little tough love, helps people be more loving towards other people in the future.

It sounds like you are doing the right thing while training people to Close as Duplicate vs. Answer. Keep up the good work!

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  • Are the 3 first paragraphs related to the question? I'm sorry but I don't understand your answer.
    – A.L
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 11:02
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    @A.L AFAICS the very first word in this answer is the answer to the question title.
    – Mr Lister
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 13:30
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I think that part of the problem is that we have people who will try their hardest to answer these questions, and fight back tooth and nail when you try to deny them "their" rep.

The other answers cover this well, so I'll address another (probably smaller) factor in this.

But another part of the problem is that it's a super huge pain to try to find dupes you know exist.

The normal search has its own problems. It's impossible to search for a number of things simply because they have special characters in them (like !@#$%^&*()). As someone who answers a lot in , I might as well just type the answer into the answer box instead of typing it into the search box. Also, it's intolerant of typos and it's impossible to search comments. Correction: use code:"<<" to search code (in this case for <<).

But the "find a dupe" search box is much worse than that. There are some posts I found about this, but they all seem to be from an earlier time, when it was even worse (not sure if that's possible, it's really bad now).

I type in some keywords; I get either highly voted irrelevance, or nothing. I try to use my special advanced searches, and they don't work (there's no reference list of tricks either).

There are a number of users that post the same question over and over and OVER again (but change the title by 1 character). You might think it would be easy to find this, but nooo.

Assuming you actually find something, it's likely you can't submit it as a dupe. It might not have an answer. It might have an answer that sits at 0, but you can't see the score breakdown or simply vote it up without going to another page.

Seriously, let's improve the search. I also think that adding a little bonus for finding dupes wouldn't hurt either. People need an incentive to prevent them from reposting from the answer, which is far less tedious than trying to mark it as a dupe.

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    I think that the current search box places too much weight on question title and tag. I've found that the best way to locate a duplicate is to open up Google in another tab. Commented May 1, 2016 at 17:32
  • What works best for me when dupe closing is typing '/' then letting my browser autocomplete it for me so i can choose one of my top 10 used dupe targets.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 1, 2017 at 18:49
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Many of the people who come here asking questions are looking for some active hand-holding. They're at the end of their rope. Sure, there might be another question right here on Stack Overflow that answers something very close to their question -- but then, there's also a good chance there's an answer to their question somewhere else out there on the Internet, or in their textbook, or wherever, "if only they would look for it". But they're frustrated, they're tired of looking, they may be trapped in a yak-shaving exercise. What they would really like, rightly or wrongly, is in fact a brand-new hand-tailored answer to just their question.

So to me the question again comes down to, to what extent are we here to help people (and on their terms), and to what extent are we here to build a high-quality (duplicate-free) repository of answers?


P.S. I'm not suggesting that users are always right to ask for, are always deserving of the tailored hand-holding I'm talking about -- plenty of times they should be sent packing, told to do their own work, regardless.

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    And today I learned the term "yak shaving."
    – Thriggle
    Commented May 2, 2016 at 16:17
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There's another reason people answer IMO. It's because they feel they'll answer best and if they don't answer someone else will answer poorly. The duplicate question is bound to get an answer and that answer stays visible forever. I'd even argue that answer is more likely to get viewed before the user clicks through to the linked duplicated. Therefore there's some incentive to try to answer it with a good answer before a bad one gets submitted.

Lots of questions don't get enough traffic to be closed as duplicates in a reasonable amount of time so duplicate questions end up with bad answers attached if not countered with good answers.

Could a technical solution solve that? No Idea. Just pointing out VTC happens too slowly to stop the answers.

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    "Automatically merge duplicates?": Very bad idea, if there ever is an answer for the master which adds something useful, it will be burried somewhere after page 10. Perhaps easing and incentivising deletion of answers on duplicates, if you really are concerned about a dupe having a bad answer... Commented May 1, 2016 at 19:54
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We should give out points to people that successfully find duplicates, but less then a good answer.

This reflects the time investment of finding a duplicate vs answering, and still provides incentive for people doing cleanup work.

I think that the 'accepted answer' bonus should also be awarded, should the original author of the question mark a duplicate question as 'accepted as a duplicate with solution'

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