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This is a critic for all meta users that for some reason or other rejects the notion that "code" in answers can be edited to make improvements or small fixes that keeps them up-to-date.

TL;dr: can we be more diligent3 and sensible4 when recommending people to not edit posts


I don't know when it started, but there has been a increasingly preoccupying issue here on meta around edits. They say that any edit shouldn't "change code unless it's a very clear typo", which goes against everything Stack Overflow have said is good for: keeping up-to-date, verifiable, authoritative answers.

Now, while the team is aware that there is a problem around obsolete content, which most people can easily fix right away in the form of editing, an action that is so encouraged that we even give 2 reputation for each accepted edit, and despite all of this is being discouraged by people here, on meta?

Why?

This is the gathering of the most well informed users of all Stack Overflow (or at least that's the impression we want to give), which can solve almost every issue users face on the main site, using our collective knowledge of the sites guidance, written and unwritten rules, debates, etc. yet we cannot allow a single update that can prevent issues in the long term with an answer, making us looks like we don't know what we are doing, dropping our rankings from search engines, keeping the internet from being a little better.

Why?

We, that know how important is keeping information accurate at all times, tend to put OP in a pedestal by not allowing anyone but themselves to edit their content on one side, yet we tell them that their content is not theirs if they want it deleted. Where is the coherence in this?

Why?

Whenever we aren't sure if something is beneficial or not, we are asked to not to take any action whenever we find ourselves in this situation* and allow others that may know to take the issue in their hands since there is no shame in not knowing something, yet we hastily tell people what they should do or don't, even when they had powerful reasons behind their actions, and we actually don't.

Why?

Our actions, our words, our opinions are reflected upon the new users. These users learn from us, and I worry for them. They are growing on an ambiance that tells them that one of the attractive features of the site (editing) is a lie, and even when they get their privileges to edit the content on the site they seldom do so, because they were repeatedly told that "don't edit code", when official guidance says nothing as specific as "code" that couldn't be improved.

Because

While I reckon we have problems about editors approving bad edits, that doesn't mean that good edits shouldn't pass through. I think that the most erudite will say that the only way to know if an edit is good and sufficient without deviating of the intent is knowing said intent and being familiar with it.

Because

The only audits on the system are "known bad audits" (aka audits that introduce nonsense) which makes reviewers reject everything. Even the sensible edit cannot pass through. The purpose of audits were that they should teach reviewers what they should (not) do, a teaching tool. But the teaching is too biased. It doesn't have any positive audit action. This is kind of bad for the reasons I explained before. Having a known good audit has been on the table for some time, maybe is time that we pool together our collective knowledge to get something that works.

Because

We are so scared that suggested edits makes a answer a wrong one that is just beyond amusing and into the terrains of being sad. Every author gets notified of any and every edit on their answer, even if they are not suggested edits. Also, there are just hundred of thousands of users that can see a new activity on any tag and can flag/comment if they see something wrong/suspicious and about a couple thousands that can rollback such edits themselves. Thus, there's no need to be afraid about bad users editing posts into wrong answers, be more afraid about good ones not updating/fixing wrong answers.

In summary, can we be more diligent and sensible when recommending people to not edit posts as this reduce the usefulness of the sites and makes a SO worse for all of us.


* yes, that is a chain of 6 links of Shog9 saying that you should skip. Here are more https://meta.stackoverflow.com/search?q=skip+user%3A811
** Sacralizing gerund: imbue with or treat as having a sacred character or quality.
3: having or showing care and conscientiousness in one's work or duties
4: chosen in accordance with wisdom or prudence; likely to be of benefit.

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  • 2
    Not sure what you are saying but an "Public Service Announcement" isn't a Question. This comes off (to me) as a semi-rant (although well formed, polite and exquisitely typed)...but a rant nonetheless.
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 22:36
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    Of course, but I'm not sure I/we follow your logic chain or agree with your assertions and conclusions.
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 22:40
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    @jonrsharpe in the summary: "can we be more diligent and sensible when recommending people to not edit posts"
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 22:42
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    Do you really need all the Whys? and Because ?
    – Just Do It
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 22:47
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    @JustDoIt it was that, or just 8 long paragraphs without syntactical connection. I'm using them more as titles.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 22:51
  • @jonrsharpe well, what can I do. I can't dumb it more than that without losing the meaning I want to transmit.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 22:52
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    What exactly is your goal here? You've pointed out that it is frowned upon to directly edit code in answers. You disagree with that assessment. You however failed to point out the arguments against editing code in answers, thus making this VERY one sided, and likely to just result in a repeat of what has already been discussed.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:00
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    reading this question and discussing it with you is exhausting. I fail to see what your previous comment is trying to prove/say.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:04
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    What we have to be careful of is trying to paint things so broadly that we try to apply "rules" to things that they shouldn't apply to, on both sides of this argument. The difficulty is in where to draw the line. Edits to old answers should NOT be changes that makes the code no longer function in an older version of the application code. This fear is likely the leading edge of why people are so against editing code in old answers. You would have to be a subject matter expert in the language being used to be able to apply that kind of judgement, so skipping is usually the right choice.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:09
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    I have no idea what you're asking; and reading through it it feels like you're asking too much (or trying to pack too much of a point) into this question. If you slim it down a bit (or make it easier to follow logically), you'll probably end up with a better discussion.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:10
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    @JustDoIt exactly my point. If the edit would make the answer wrong for the version it was written for, the edit shouldn't have happened, or should have been done in a way that didn't result in it not working in the version it was written for.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:16
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    @GeorgeStocker I'm not asking anything, in the way of a "question". I'm asking meta not to be so biased towards edits, rejecting everything they aren't sure of. This post tries to point out the possible causes that brought about this bias, and how it goes against the general guidance.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:19
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    @KevinB is already on my question. I was just pointing you out why that doesn't work. "the only way to know if an edit is good and sufficient without deviating of the intent is knowing said intent and being familiar with it" this guidance is ignored.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 1:47
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    @KevinB why are you looking for culprits? I say that is ignored because it's said several times on meta that edits that "edit code" should be rejected without further considerations.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 5:51
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    I recall this discussion from 3 years ago. The community was, and is, very strongly divided on this. @Braiam this seems like a reasonable question, but it unfortunately comes across as a rant and has attracted downvotes.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 11, 2016 at 12:26

3 Answers 3

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I am not sure what you are. We will go with unicorn.

Meta doesn't really negatively prevent edits to posts. The community as a whole seems to have a strong foul taste in their mouth when code is edited because it is often changed from its original intent. There has been strong backlash historically of users feeling their posts were "vandalized" from these types of code edits.

Changing the grammar of a post, or making the slightly vague points more concise and clear, is far often still inline with original intent; coincidentally this also correlates with the largest segment of edits (which meta heavily supports). Changing the code to make it clearer can often mean simply changing the indentation - this does make a large difference! However, this is also supported by meta.

Anyway, here is some historical stuff you probably should have reviewed

https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/104095/178816

How far can I refactor the code in someone else's question?

https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/197407/178816

When is it appropriate to edit someone else's code?

When are syntax errors protected from edits?

etc... this isn't a new topic.

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    "The community as a whole seems to have a strong foul taste in their mouth when code is edited because it is often changed from its original intent." That's precisely what I want to change. There are some valid edits that are not being applied because our misguided fear of "deviating of the OP intent". We don't need to be fearful, there are enough systems in place to prevent damages from spreading and we guiding new editors that comes to meta asking why their conscious edits aren't approved may discourage them into editing anything ever. That would be disastrous for SO.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:45
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    That's precisely what I want to change. Good luck, pal. I, for one, will be out of here the very second this changes. But hey, YMMV. Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:48
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    @Braiam - Editing outlook hasn't changed in a very long time. So whatever that outlook is, it is built in right now and I don't see any disasters with regards to edits - nor really a shortage overall. I really do not want new users to be encouraged to scour old posts with the intent of editing the code found, but perhaps that is my personal opinion... or perhaps not.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:49
  • Well, when I joined (about 5 months before you did), meta sympathized with these kind of edits. And another user that is older than I am, felt the change. Those feelings at least, aren't unfounded. If the outlook changed, it may need to change yet again.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 0:01
  • @Braiam - First, meta did not sympathize with the edits. Your link shows a scenario where an answer was posted instead of leaving the information in a comment - which is radically different from editing someone else's code in an answer. Gilles (the older user) is great, but I am not sure how they "felt the change". In the referenced post they link to from that message you link to the scenario is one of interest. While the post was accurate at the time, someone edited the now "more accurate" version in. In my opinion, this deviates from the original intent (as also as the opinion of the +20
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 0:32
  • vote) answer at the top of that post. What should have happened there was to post another answer, with the "more correct" version which had the opportunity to explain the significance of the change, what led to it, and what makes the other version too narrow going forward or obsolete and some official documentation.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 0:32
  • "an answer was posted instead of leaving the information in a comment" are we reading the same thing? I still remember that the asker posted his "solution" in the comments, Bill edited the comment into the question itself, and I edited the question to remove the content that Bill added. How is that any different from most of the edits that gets rejected here where a lot of text gets added or removed?
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 0:37
  • @Braiam - Text getting added or removed wasn't the topic here though, it was specifically editing code. Have at it with text edits. Code edits? Not so much. Perhaps there are some edge cases where moving code makes sense (such as the asker posting their solution in their question), but overall just avoid making actual changes to code implementation.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 0:39
  • I edited code Travis, check the markdown rendered version.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 0:40
  • You moved code. There is a large difference. Bill placed the code from the comment in the post (from what I can tell without mod ability). Then the code was deleted from the post, and you placed it verbatim in an answer.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 0:43
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    Nitpicking: "simply changing the indentation" - I've seen edits in Python that changed the semantics of code by modifying the indentation :p
    – honk
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 8:05
  • @honk - You are correct, in some languages indentation does effect the code's implementation. Please consider that to be an edge case in this situation :)
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 8:06
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    @TravisJ 'While the post was accurate at the time, someone edited the now "more accurate" version in.' Correction: My edit's version would have been more accurate at the time of posting that answer, and for a few years before that as well.
    – muru
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 9:59
  • @muru - Splitting hairs at this point, I really have no interest in which answer was more accurate because it is not really relevant here. Hence the "more accurate" being in quotes, as to say "if you say so". The point here is editing code, which didn't happen in that example. The point was not to critique the answer and it wasn't my intention to come off as doing that.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 19:22
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I don't think coming up with objective reasoning for approving/rejecting edits is healthy for the network either, however, if we're going to have users (people) approving/rejecting edits, many of these people are going to want to have specific black/white reasoning for approving or rejecting the edits so that when their action is contested, they can easily explain why they did what they did.

That's where the majority of this discussion has come from. People who want to be able to easily say "I should reject this edit because it changed less than n characters" or "I should skip this edit because it's changing the code". The reason these queues are handled by people is that a person can look at the situation and make a judgement call. That can't be done with code (at least, not with code currently available.) So, there's always going to be "guidelines" for those people who want to help with the queue but need justification in what kind of edits should be approved/rejected. The guidelines are there to guide you. You should use them to help you make a judgement. If they were rules, we wouldn't need a review queue.

I don't think anything really needs to change. We can't really help that people look at a guideline and act upon it as if it is a rule.

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  • I use an objective reasoning to accept/reject edits: I know about this stuff and I'm aware that is good? Is exactly what the guidance says. On another topic, you get suspended if you approved a bad edit, why shouldn't you if you rejected a good one?
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:39
  • you should, but i suspect such audits are harder to create in an automated fashion. Remember, suggested edits all come from users with less than 2k reputation. Just because one of them gets approved doesn't necessarily mean it was a good edit. Bad edits on the other hand can be created by an algorithm, and spam edits make really good audits because they're reviewed by moderators.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:39
  • We should then pool resources into thinking how to make working known good audits, don't you think?
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:47
  • I wouldn't be participating in that discussion, but sure why not, if there's enough that do wish to put forth the effort.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 10, 2016 at 0:02
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You are right. Meta discouraging edits is neither wise, prudent or conscientious nor it brings benefits for SO. Using a more sensible metric to approve and/or reject an edit should be approached. The help center, through generic, use the phrase "fundamentally change" the post. Instead of a blanket statement of we should approve/reject X/Y kind of edits, we need to be more sensible than that. There need to be changes on both, our attitude to edits and the system that balance out the bias that editors have of rejecting anything they aren't sure of.

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    Your ability to express yourself in short, carefully crafted paragraphs with lots of references seems to have abandoned you. Are you okay? Commented Feb 9, 2016 at 23:20
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    Did you really reply "You are right" to yourself? That comes off as really, ehm, what's a polite word.
    – Mr Lister
    Commented Apr 26, 2016 at 20:07

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