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Is it just me or is the Greeter Hat causing a lot of questionable upvoting and trivial editing?

Perhaps I'm growing cynical, but it seems like I've come across a lot of polished turds with single upvotes this morning.

Greeter
edit and upvote another user’s first post, which must have been made during Winter Bash

enter image description here

While I understand the intent of this hat, it may be sending the wrong message to new users who've posted low quality questions.

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  • 56
    That would seem like an extremely ill-conceived hat, as awesome as Winter Bash is otherwise
    – Pekka
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 15:11
  • 28
    I suggest adding "I'm upvoting only for the hat, your post is not really good. Please improve it". Just kidding..
    – Maroun
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 15:15
  • 7
    I think they try to motivate a gentle approach of new questions/answers... I think they are failing
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 15:16
  • 42
    BTW, trying to get the greeter hat without feeling guilty is proving to be a hurdle...
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 15:21
  • 11
    Maybe after this is all over they can take everyone who has the greeter hat and look for posts that have a negative score or are closed and suspend everyone who got it for voting fraud :-) Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 15:26
  • 2
    @psubsee2003: You mean suspend them for fraudulent hatting?
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 16:45
  • 9
    "While I understand the intent of this hat, it may be sending the wrong message to new users who've posted low quality questions." But it might send the right message to new users who have posted good quality questions with minor typos or poor question form, in that it shows the user how to properly format a question if done right.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 16:51
  • 2
    @KevinB That would hopefully be the intent of the hat, but it doesn't seem like many hat chasers are getting that.
    – apaul
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 16:53
  • 8
    A much better indicator for being a good greeter would be editing plus having a comment on a first post with a score of at least 1.
    – Pekka
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 16:54
  • 2
    I wondered if the person editing had to upvote, or of someone else had to, which would be a better algorithm...
    – user1228
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 16:59
  • 5
    @Braiam Upvote first, then edit (unlocking your vote). Wait until the hat is awarded, then reverse the vote.
    – user3717023
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 17:19
  • 43
    After going through the First Post queue (and downvoting/flagging most) I finally came across one that was good enough to get an upvote. So I upvoted it... Stupid audit. Missed the hat :(
    – user2535467
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 18:21
  • 2
    I see now why the awful made questions I've downvoted are upvoted immediatly, lol... Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 18:28
  • 21
    Hatters gonna hat
    – ivarni
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 5:55
  • 4
    why oh Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late?
    – gnat
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 19:47

3 Answers 3

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I came up with this hat. The original idea here was that we wanted to be helpful and welcoming to new users with edits. And since people aren't supposed to submit junk edits, the posts generally should be upvote-worthy after they've been edited, so that was made part of the trigger as well.

I understand that not all first posts will qualify. Sometimes an author will, for example, leave out critical information that a third party editor has no way of knowing. So, edit, comment, don't upvote, and try again for the hat on a different post. Other times, questions are just unsalvageable for a given site. Those should just be closed. (Hey, we even have hats for that too.)

Unfortunately, some people will always ignore the good behavior the badge hat was trying to encourage, and take the easiest possible way out. And that is why we can't have nice things. Seriously; at this point (not just because of this hat), I'm not entirely sold on holding Winter Bash again next year.

But to actually answer you: after the event ends, I'll see if I can somehow sift through the data to find out how the hat (and other hats) actually affected overall behavior and quality. I don't have a specific plan for how I'm going to do it yet, though.

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    Change the criteria to Edit another user's first post, which never receives a down vote, close vote or flag afterwards!.
    – user177800
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 20:09
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    @JarrodRoberson Does "never" mean that the user loses the hat if one is awarded? If we don't want to take away awarded hats, then perhaps the criteria could be refined to Edit another user's first post, which does not receive a down vote, close vote or flag in the first X hours. I suggest 12 hours, which seems like long enough for both SO and the lesser-known SE sites. Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 20:17
  • @Thunderforge - sounds reasonable to me to lose something if you did not do what the intended effect is, your suggestion will just cause people to edit and upvote in the middle of the night when the least amount of people are going to see it in X first hours. Anything short of a full circadian cycle would be exploited.
    – user177800
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 20:19
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    I would say it "where the post retains a positive score". People downvote for all sorts of silly reasons, I've personally seen my questions and answers with double-digit or higher scores get an occasional downvote for some indiscernible cause. However, as long as the question doesn't drop into negatives, there's obviously some value to it. Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 20:20
  • If it receives another down vote maybe it was most likely a poor choice and unsalvageable to begin with?
    – user177800
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 20:21
  • 2
    @JarrodRoberson I'm more concerned with someone being awarded the hat on a genuinely good question (say, one that gets 10 upvotes because it is really a good question), then a week later someone spoils it by casting a single downvote for a bad reason (e.g. vindictive downvoting). I think that Chris Pratt's suggestion of "where the post retains a positive score" seems like a good compromise. Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 20:22
  • Either way it is unlikely that any change will be made.
    – user177800
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 20:34
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    Things are indeed pretty much locked in for this year. Good ideas for the future, though!
    – Pops Staff
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 20:41
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    "people aren't supposed to submit junk edits, the posts generally should be upvote-worthy after they've been edited" BUAHAHAHA
    – bjb568
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 20:53
  • 3
    I don't dislike the sentiment behind the hat at all, even though its current incarnation may be flawed. A "greeter" hat (or even badge!) could be an awesome thing if we could find a metric to define "Added a helpful comment to a first or early question". The best I can think of (as others have, too) is "a comment with one or more upvotes, and no flags"
    – Pekka
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 21:16
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    I don't mean to be rude, but SO has existed for quite a long time now (in Internet terms, at least), so you know how people react to gamification. Why couldn't you anticipate the unintended consequences of this hat? Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 23:01
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    We always knew there would be some. It's a question of how much.
    – Pops Staff
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 23:23
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    "I'm not entirely sold on holding Winter Bash again..." -- Noooo.. don't get swayed just because there are some who are finding the easy way to abandon good behaviour. Nothing is perfect. There will always be outliers, but that shouldn't mean we stop doing things that are fun! Just tweak the criteria here and there, and the world will be good again.
    – Abhitalks
    Commented Dec 16, 2015 at 7:11
  • @JarrodRoberson According to this post on Meta StackExchange, some unmentioned rules like the ones you talked about exist.
    – Athafoud
    Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 15:12
  • oh come on - its a good hat! you cant blame the guy who offers you a special .gif for proactively supporting the distribution of information if you covet that .gif so well that you stoop to the distribution of misinformation in an effort to gain it. that problems all yours.
    – mikeserv
    Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 18:27
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I agree, this hat is definitely problematic. I think the intent behind the hat (more positive feedback to new contributors) is great, but in practice the hat all too easily just encourages robo-reviewing and mindless upvoting of bad questions.

Based on personal experience I'd even say that, even for people trying to review carefully and responsibly, the existence of the hat does create extra pressure to upvote new questions that perhaps don't quite deserve it after all. In some cases this may be a good thing (as many people do tend to be excessively stingy with upvotes), but it can also lead to poorly written and essentially unanswerable questions getting upvoted and sticking around, when they really should've just stayed at score 0 until the roomba sweeps them away.

For this year, we're probably stuck with the hat as it is. If a similar hat will be included in 2016, however, may I suggest changing the criteria to something like:

Edit another user's first post, which then reaches a score of +2 (+3?).

and/or possibly (inspired by Pekka's suggestion above):

Comment on another user's first post, with the comment receiving at least one (two?) upvote(s?) and no flags within 24 hours.

This would add an element of community feedback to the awarding criteria — not only do you need to upvote the question, but someone else also has to agree that the question (or your comment) deserves an upvote as well. This should hopefully discourage people from trying to gain the hat just by editing and upvoting random unsalvageable questions.

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    "in practice the hat all too easily just encourages robo-reviewing and mindless upvoting of bad questions" So it "encourages" the norm?
    – GEOCHET
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 19:38
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    Yup, it encourages it even more. That's bad.
    – Pekka
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 19:38
  • 1
    I don't think the second suggestion would work, either. Some pretty negative comments can get heavily upvoted without actually being bad enough for a flag. I like the first.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Dec 14, 2015 at 20:54
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    Bad questions getting upvoted is a much much bigger problem than good questions that don't get an upvote with alacrity, IMO. "as many people do tend to be excessively stingy with upvotes" I see just the opposite "as many people do tend to be excessively generous with upvotes". I suppose my cup is half empty. Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 5:02
  • 1
    @RobertCrovella and all our cups are tainted with Escherichia coli.
    – bjb568
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 20:57
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Last year we had a similar hat: Warm Welcome. Unlike this year, it was a secret, which might be why it didn't cause any noticable problems. But the other difference is that it did not require an edit. Therefore it was impossible to detect the posts that people were voting on to obtain the hat. Even with full voting data, it's difficult to determine which votes were motivated by the hat and which were organic.

This year we can use internal data to estimate how many more people performed these actions in order to gain a hat. Specifically, we can look for people who vote and edit on first posts and compare that number to the rate last week or so. On the first day of Winter Bash 2015 (December 13), there were 407 Greeters awarded across all sites and 224 on Stack Overflow. Over the same time period a week earlier, there were 92 examples of Greeter behavior and 28 were on Stack Overflow. In other words, on SO the hat added roughly 200 extra "upvote and edit" actions.

Over the course of Winter Bash, the rate of extraneous actions should decrease as more people go from wanting the hat to owning it. We also can't easily tell which edits were frivolous and which votes were careless. Certainly I don't see any hard evidence that the hat did any damage at all. Maybe that could be added to your question at some point.

In "6-8 weeks" I'll take a look at the stats again. Because of the holidays, it probably makes more sense to look year-over-year rather than the previous period.

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  • You could compare the eventual score of "greeted" questions after, say, 48 hours. (I could almost do that in SEDE, except that I can't tell if a user who edited a post also upvoted it.) If more bad questions are being edited and upvoted for the hat, that should translate to a lower average score for such questions. Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 1:59
  • Do you also have stats on how many people adds a comment to your posts compared to the previous weeks? :)
    – Bart
    Commented Dec 18, 2015 at 13:53

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