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Yesterday, I stumbled upon this question, asking:

Which is the best platform for bootstrap coding ? I have googled but I did not understand.

For me this appears to be a tool recommendation question. Therefore, I flagged it accordingly and commented (as kindly as I could do) that the question is off-topic:

Please note that questions asking us to recommend or find a book, tool, software library, tutorial or other off-site resource are off-topic for Stack Overflow as they tend to attract opinionated answers and spam. Please read How to Ask to learn what we expect from questions. – honk Jul 27 at 17:02

I didn't ask the OP to take the tour, because they already have the Informed badge.

Later, I saw that the question was still open and received an answer which was accepted and got three upvotes. The answer refers to my comment in the first sentence. The first comment on that answer starts with:

Thanks for answering his question and not being a total a-hole about it [...]

I think, this comment (which wasn't from the OP, but another user) can be interpreted that way, that I'm a total a-hole for the comment I left.

Now I'm confused. Was I wrong with my judgment? Was I too harsh on this newbie question?

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    That's fits "too broad" or "opinion-based". It should be closed.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 20:48
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    I don't think so. The only harsh thing I saw was his response.
    – Stryner
    Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 20:49
  • 2
    Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. :p Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 20:53
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    you were actually way more polite than 90% of people commenting when something is Off-Topic. I'd say someone just has a thin skin and got offended for nothing. Don't worry about it, I think you've done exactly what should've been done.
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 20:53
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    In case people missed it, the comment was not from the question poster; just another person who happened to see it.
    – resueman
    Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 20:55
  • Man, that was fast.17 minutes and it's already gone. (It's probably always that fast but I usually don't see these until the question's a few hours old.)
    – BSMP
    Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 21:07
  • @resueman: Thanks for pointing that out. I updated my question accordingly.
    – honk
    Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 21:20
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    I am reading this question at the time the linked question is already deleted and I dont understand it because there's too many dead links. Maybe add what you commented?
    – Loko
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 8:32
  • @Loko comment added by (I assume) Jongware to above post. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:01
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    Not harsh at all. Your comment was on point. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:52
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    I used to have so many questions downvoted, some even now. And I have a history of so many closed questions. You know what, I am glad that there were moderators and users like you who were kind enough to tell me why they did it that I could learn from it. Also, the moderation in SE is very kind, I did not even know there was a ban till I read other answers in this question. So, pat yourself for a good job ;)
    – Lordbalmon
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 19:04

2 Answers 2

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I would say your comment was fine and the question should be closed as either "too broad" or "opinion-based". In addition, the comment you are referring to should be flagged for attention also, as it provides no value at all.

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    Definitely don't use NAA. It is an answer. The problem is with the question. And VLQ? IMO it's not. It offers a good explanation. Again, the problem is with the question.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 20:55
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    I edited it, but only by removing noise. It still had all the same content.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 20:57
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    Leave the answer the hell alone. And why did the whole thing have to be deleted now?
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 21:04
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    @Pekka웃 You don't need an answer to go say, "look up some tutorials on the topic and that will get you started". Without an answer like this around someone looking for tutorials on the topic is more likely to find actual tutorials on the topic when searching, rather than just an SO post saying that they should look at an actual tutorial on the topic.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 21:08
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    @Pekka웃 "Which is the best platform" > opinion based > off -topic > close > cleanup (delete) Commented Jul 28, 2015 at 21:36
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    I think this community in particular is missing the point (in some cases) the user expertise in this community seems uniquely qualified to answer questions that appear to be opinion based. Although the concept of opinion based/subjective answers, and the approach to avoid them seems logical, all too often there appears to be a connection between some responders and the OPs. This may be a dynamic that this community has not considered, think, "You read my mind." There is really no opinion here, but a like (similar) understanding where a solution is easy provided. Its a disservice to not allow.
    – htm11h
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 19:48
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    @htm11h You can undelete your own posts within 90 days of being deleted. You can always edit the question to make it on-topic. But your belief about deletions is naive. What about all of the abandoned questions that are automatically deleted?
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 19:53
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    @htm11h No, you're the one missing the point. The reason that this community is as good/valuable as it is is precisely because it prohibits questions like these. These highly broad and opinion based questions discourage experts from participating in the long term. So by allowing the types of questions that SO permits, it would make SO a poor place to get answers to those questions, (and the questions currently allowed at the same time).
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 19:56
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    @TinyGiant He can't undelete the post himself as it was deleted by 3 10k+ users. He could only undelete it if he deleted it hiimself.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 19:57
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    @servy Oh, thanks for the correction, I was under the impression that only applied to moderator deleted posts.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 19:58
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    @htm11h It's not a valid question. It's content that we don't want here, because the site has determined that they cause more harm than good, and so have considered them out of scope for the site. It doesn't need to be processed differently.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 21:10
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    @htm11h - How you think questions like these should be handled boils down to what you think SO's mission should be. If you think the mission is to answer individual users questions, then you are going to be heavily biased toward allowing just about any question on the site. If you think the mission is to create a repository of high quality content useful for everyone else on the internet, then you are going to be biased toward removing questions that encourage low quality content. Most SO users fit in the second group. Most Yahoo Answers users fit the first.
    – JDB
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 21:19
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    @htm11h "how do I change a tire on my car" is a valid question. Doesn't mean it should be asked on stack overflow. This site was NEVER meant to answer all questions. It became popular because of its quality standards, and because of that it is now completely flooded with people who think anything and everythig should be allowed. Stack became good because it didn't do that. If we turn around, there's a very real risk quality will DRASTICALLY drop
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 21:43
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    @servy You finally make a hint to a good point. But I am not advocating reducing the quality of content of SO. Your argument fails by again grouping all questions as low quality rather than the original statement of Opinion Based, which does not make them in whole, a bad question. My suggestion was simply to not close/delete but to move as is done with many other questions now.
    – htm11h
    Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 17:14
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    @servy you do this a lot, declaring low quality content is inaccurate. The issue was Opinion Based answers which are not automatically low quality. And my point was to allow them to be answered, even if it meant moving them to another community, AGAIN, NOT degrading SO content.
    – htm11h
    Commented Aug 4, 2015 at 14:49
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Less punishment would allow for more enforcement of high-quality content. Imagine if it were easier to close questions, but harder to punish a person for asking frivolous questions, the community might be more receptive to exacting standards. Also, if the user who asked the low-quality question had a forgiveness period to take back their question or change it, there might be less of a perception of "a-hole"-ness.

As it is, with the extreme punishment of basically banishment from the community and the severe nature of language stating that the question is "low-quality" and "off-topic" and should be "flagged for closure," you can't really enforce the standards without being an a-hole.

I mean, for a newbie, the gravity of asking a low-quality question is at or around the scale of a spilled glass of milk. You don't yell at a person and banish them from the kitchen for spilling milk. You tell them they should take care, then you clean up the milk and move on.

So it is pretty much the penalty system. The mission is fine. Why should the mission be sacrificed for the sake of being able to punish people who don't know any better? My first thought, when I started here and was told my question was off-topic, was: what a draconian ahole. I think you can achieve the mission without pushing the standards of civil society to the point where new users have that kind of reaction.

Simple solution: questions with a certain number of downvotes get removed from the site 5 days after the question is answered; asker gets notified that their content isn't welcome, and life moves on--no ban. Everyone wins: newbs get the feedback that they need to improve the content, they get their answer, and you can downvote without reservation: the person isn't going to get banned from the site.

Otherwise, the site will have trouble allowing new people in, depriving us all of a stronger community.

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    Everyone who uses a Stack Exchange site needs to understand that downvotes and question closure are intended as guidance, not as punishment. I don't deny that it can feel bad when it happens, but hey, it's only imaginary internet points, and if it's a new 1 point user they don't even lose any rep. And hopefully, they'll learn from their mistake, improve their question (or answer), and their future contributions will be of higher quality.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 7:01
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    @bordeo If you want to slash (part of) the moderation system, you really need to present a replacement which stays viable in the face of, in your words, a-holes dumping their litter. And if you neglect to remove those not willing or able to pay a minimum of respect to the community whose help they desire and what keeps it alive, you are doomed whatever you try. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 10:01
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    If someone shows up and spills a glass of milk, you take the milk away and say "please be careful with the milk". If they come back 5 minutes later and spill another glass, you say "what are you doing"? If they come back the next day, grab a glass of milk, and pour it all over the floor while looking you in the eye, you banish them from the kitchen. It is true that when faced with the fact that they broke pretty clear rules, people get angry: but SO has a surplus of people asking bad questions anyhow, coddling people who respond to correction with anger isn't needed. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 14:29
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    Your "simple solution" there has a problem: It does not actually teach the users that the content they posted isn't welcome here. They still get an answer, so what do they care if the question is gone? The question ban takes a lot to get to. If you are writing that bad of questions and not learning what you're doing is wrong, you need to be told to take a step back and learn the rules before you try again. New people can get in just fine. They just have to learn the rules of the community, similar to joining a new club. Blatantly ignore the rules, get kicked out.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 14:43
  • @Yakk Anti-social behavior like that is a unicorn case. Most people respond by trying to adapt--otherwise, there would be no community. Trying to make sure the anti-social 5% behaves requires rules that are prohibitive to learning. Instead of implementing more and more severe rules, give the community stronger measures to silence them. If a downvote score of -5 in x hours = removal of the question from the site, then who cares if they stare you in the eye and pour the milk? their anger is their problem...it's out of the scope of SO to confront that kind of behavior.
    – Chris
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 14:44
  • @Kendra It is outside the scope of SO to "teach" the users...that kind of attitude is where the A-holeness comes from. That's why this guy was feeling guilty enough to post this question. It is about informing them that their content isn't welcome. If you want to participate in the community and gain rep, you will still have to "learn" the ways of SO...but if you are just trying it out and you screw up, you won't come away saying those SO people are elitist pricks. SO is big enough and touches enough people that that kind of negative press stymies any kind of extra growth from this point..
    – Chris
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 14:48
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    Sorry, but the OP of this question is just asking for confirmation that they did what they could. And the a-hole obviously felt no remorse at all. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 14:51
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    If you want to kill this site by turning into a personal tutoring helpdesk site, your first update is certainly an efficient way to go about it. But such sites already exist, try yahoo answers or finding some paid tutors in your neighbourhood. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 14:55
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    The question being closed is taking the milk away after they already poured it on the table. See, they wanted to play with milk on the table. Closing the question and downvoting instructs the person who has already failed to read the "do not pour milk on the table" sign that they should not pour milk on the table. The punishment (semi-permanent asking ban) only occurs after you repeatedly ask questions that are downvoted/closed/deleted. That lines up with the person who comes back the next day, looks the community in the eye, and pours the milk all over the floor. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:04
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    "was I too harsh..." is not remorse, it's just asking for confirmation that he did the best he could because the OPs aggressive attack and bad-mouthing rattled him. Such happens, everyone needs a steadying hand and some nice words from time to time, especially in the face of such ungrateful sociopaths with a gigantic sense of entitlement. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:06
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    Closing the question is just cleaning up the milk they poured all over the table. While this might be punishment (they really wanted to play with the milk on the table, taking it away is unfair) in some lights, it is also keeping the kitchen clean. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:06
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    What you are describing implies malice on the part of the asker...are you seriously suggesting that a new user can't ask 4 or 5 bad questions in a row without malice?
    – Chris
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:08
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    @bordeo unanswered questions are already deleted after a period of time when they meet certain conditions. But try to think of the issue in terms of shear volume. Stack Overflow gets so many new questions (good and bad) that good (and potentially good) questions often do not get the attention they deserve because they are quickly pushed aside by the flood of bad question. By trying to prevent the bad questions before they are asked helps people who want to ask good questions but can't get answers because of the noise. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:38
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    @bordeo: Such a noob exchange was already proposed. But if you were a noob, would you really go to the place the experts assidiuously avoid because it's full of repetitive and abysmyl crap and ask the noobs there, instead of to the well-curated clean and shining hallowed site where the expertise resides? Then why are they here and not at yahoo answers or some such? Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:47
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    Meh, maybe you are right.
    – Chris
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 16:00

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