6

I flagged this answer as not-an-answer because it says nothing more than "variadic templates are involved", which is not a sufficient answer (note that the real answer, above, is actually fairly complex and even somewhat surprising, even with variadic templates--and that real implementations of tuple are actually pretty complicated!).

My flag is marked as "disputed." Is this "answer", which amounts to little more than "it's trivial, google [related thing]", actually an answer? Sure, this would be helpful as a comment (since variadic templates are indeed a crucial part of the implementation)--but the contribution of "variadic templates are involved" obvious anyway, since the type of tuple is itself a variadic template.

I realize that "not an answer" flags are displayed to mods without showing the original question, but I can't imagine how "it's trivial, google [related thing]" could ever be a valid answer.

Finally, just as evidence that the answerer really isn't helping OP (even though strictly speaking that shouldn't be relevant for the "not an answer" flag), note this statement from the original question: "I tried to read description in libstdc++ manual and then read template listing, but it's really hard to understand how it works, especially when reading code." Responding to this with "it's trivial" is practically an insult.

EDIT: I overestimated how meaningful the "disputed" dismiss-reason is; see Air's answer. I still don't think this is really an answer, but at least the flag wasn't declined.

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    You are having a beef with an SO user that disagreed. Big whoopie, there were another 11 that would have disagreed as well if they could, the ones that upvoted the post. We don't know who he is, the odds that you'll find him here are zero, it was just a random accident of two people voting at roughly the same time. So, what's the point of this question? Don't like it when somebody tells you that you're wrong? Nobody likes it. Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:24
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    It's somewhere between a half-eaten apple (partial answer) and a signpost to an apple (NAA). Some will see the former, some will see the latter.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:25
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    @HansPassant I take flags reasonably seriously: I interpret the way flags are handled as fairly indicative of what we as a community consider the "right" way to handle various situations. Obviously I disagree with the decision of the "rabble" to upvote the post, but for all I know those 11 upvoters were all new members of the site who didn't yet know what constitutes a good answer. But a 10,000+ user who disagrees with me is another matter entirely. That said, based on Air's answer, it appears that I overestimated the extent of the meaning of "disputing" a flag. Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:31
  • @Radiodef I don't even see a valid signpost, frankly; it's more like a cryptic riddle about apples and maps. Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:35
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    @KyleStrand A signpost is NAA precisely because you don't know if it answers the question until you follow it.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:36
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    Hmm, characterizing people in the [c++] tag as "rabble". Courageous, I suspect we'll see you back at meta soon. Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:36
  • @Radiodef And indeed you wouldn't know if implementing tuples is trivial using variadic templates until you...what, google "variadic template tuple"? Try implementing it yourself? Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:43
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    @HansPassant I thought about explicitly stating that that was a joke, but hoped it would be obvious from the scare-quotes... :) Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:43
  • @KyleStrand Right, but the point I was getting at in my original comment is that it offers enough of a crumb that some will want to keep it around.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:45
  • @Radiodef I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying this is an answer because it's a signpost? Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:46
  • I'm saying some reviewers think that a small hint is an answer, however small. Maybe not an answer worth 11 upvotes, but answer enough not to delete it.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:47
  • @Radiodef But you also pointed out that signposts are considered NAA. Are signposts not the epitome of "small hints"? Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:53
  • Refer to the Q&A I originally linked to. "Please see this Wikipedia article" is NAA. "std::tuple uses variadic templates" is a (possibly crappy) answer even when stripped of the link.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 0:38
  • @Radiodef I have read that Q&A. Asking someone to google something (with this "answer" does) is worse than simply providing a link. Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 0:39
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    That's really your perception. In any case, if you've read the guidelines then I don't think I have much else to add. The point I was originally trying to make was that your perception is just one of many and that's why the flag was disputed.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 0:47

2 Answers 2

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tl;dr; If the Y is a new technology the OP may not be aware of then referring him to Y can be enough of an answer.

As the author the the answer in question, note that the question was asked in 2010 before C++11 was official.

The OP tried to read an implementation of std::tuple which was either:

  1. Written in C++98 thus hard to understand

    The answer lets him know that a simpler implementation is possible with C++11 variadic templates

  2. Used variadic templates which most C++ developers where not familiar with yet.

    The answer gives him the name of a feature he may not recognize (and which isn't very searchable (it doesn't use a new keyword and ... is hard to google)).

In either case I believe the answer I gave was helpful (and as others mentioned, so did several other people).

As for not giving enough information to answer the question. The question is about how an existing C++ class is implemented. As I understand it the "correct" answer is a pointer to where to start reasoning about the answer. After all the only reason that such a question can be asked is curiosity (the OP wasn't facing a problem to solve, he was trying to understand the current situation).

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    I'm somewhat sympathetic to your point that it was a better answer in 2010 than it is today, but I came across the question after trying and failing to implement a quick-and-dirty linked-list style tuple-like class as an exercise. Since you have experience with Alexandrescu-style tuples, I suppose the new style really is trivial by comparison--but for us mere mortals, it is still not, in an absolute sense, trivial! Personally, though, I do not really see a connection between whether or not there's a "problem to solve" and whether a "pointer" constitutes a "real" answer. Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 21:27
3

Yes, it's technically an answer, though that seems to rarely be what users are actually asking when they ask after NAA flags on Meta.

In your own question here, you say it's not a "sufficient" answer and that another one is a "real" answer. Dare I say you think this is a poor answer? Which is an answer, Q.E.D., and I hop off chortling at my semantic victory. (No, that would be much too silly.)

I think what you're really asking here is twofold:

  1. You want to know if flagging this NAA was reasonably correct.
  2. You want to know if this answer should be removed.

First, let's take a quick look at What is a disputed flag? in the MSE FAQ, specifically this part:

  • An edit on a post in the Low Quality Review Queue, will resolve the flags attached to it as disputed.
  • When a post, flagged as NAA or VLQ, enters on the Low Quality Review Queue while being upvoted or accepted, if all reviewers selected "recommend deletion" it will result in a disputed flag.

There's no edit history on the post, but the second scenario is plausible. 11 users found this answer helpful and it has a net score of +9, so even trusted users don't have the ability to vote to delete it, but they may still have agreed with you in the queue that it should be deleted.

I don't know that I would have cast the flag in your place; that said, I think your justification for flagging it is reasonable. It may take a moderator to figure out exactly how the status of the flag came to be "disputed" but speaking generally, I wouldn't take that as a sign you did something wrong.

As for whether the answer should be removed, forget about helping the author of the question—it's almost five years old! Years after the fact, with +11/-2 score, the burden is no longer on the answer to show that it's useful or relevant. The score argues that point fairly well. The burden is on us to show that, for whatever reason, those 11 upvoters were wrong and this really isn't worth keeping around for any reason.

You have a point that "it's trivial" is somewhat dismissive. Have you considered editing the answer to soften that language?

You also have a point that the answer is very short, and would be helpful as a comment. That said, what harm has this answer done in the past five years? It's not spam, it's fairly civil, it's not repeating or displacing better answers.

If you really feel strongly that an old, objectively helpful answer needs to be converted to a comment, a custom flag explaining that directly to the moderators who can perform that action seems like the most effective course of action. Personally, I don't think this needs to be deleted or converted to a comment, but the issue is debatable.

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    "An edit on a post in the Low Quality Review Queue, will resolve the flags..." Does that mean any edit on the post resolves the flags? E.g. if the author of the post edits it, that counts as a "disputed" flag? That seems like...poor terminology. Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:22
  • "a custom flag explaining that directly to the moderators who can perform that action seems like the most effective course of action" No, don't do this. It will get declined. Moderators have better things to do.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:39
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    As for the rest-- what do you mean by "technically an answer"? I really truly do not see an answer to the question here. By "sufficient" I mean "including enough content to be considered an answer." By "real" I mean...well, the same thing. In both cases, the opposite is...*not an answer*. As for editing the answer, I suppose I could change it to just read "the implementation involves variadic templates," but that would be scant improvement. As for harm, I consider (somewhat) highly-voted posts (questions or answers) that are examples of what not to do to be harmful to the community. Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:40
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    I also don't understand your phrase "objectively helpful" in the last paragraph--as noted in my question, this is objectively unhelpful, because it contains no information that isn't obvious from the declaration of std::tuple! Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:41
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    @Kyle 11 upvotes are an objective measure of helpfulness. What you consider to be obvious is subjective.
    – Air
    Commented Apr 14, 2015 at 23:59
  • @Air And votes are based on opinions, so your measure of helpfulness is actually subjective as well. Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 0:01
  • @Kyle individual votes are subjective but the vote count is an objective metric; it is not my opinion that people found this answer helpful.
    – Air
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 0:09
  • Well, that's true. Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 0:28
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    @KyleStrand Sorry if my replies seemed terse, I was on mobile. Re: queue edits, not sure, though I've seen nothing on MSE to suggest the author's edit is special-cased. By technically an answer, I mean that it's not gibberish, spam, another question, a request for clarification or any of the other things that are explicitly considered not an answer. The author asked, "explain the idea to me," and the answer suggests that the inclusion of variadic templates explains the idea. It's an honest (if lazy) attempt to address what's being asked.
    – Air
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 0:32
  • @Air "11 upvotes are an objective measure of helpfulness" Upvotes are not an objective measure of helpfulness!! Upvotes mean what they are: 11 out of 4,000 viewers clicked a button.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 0:44
  • Fair enough, and you didn't seem unpleasantly terse. Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 0:46
  • @Radiodef Sure, and a recording of me singing along to ABBA in the car only means that a microphone intercepted pressure waves in a certain sequence. You can't prove anything.
    – Air
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 0:55
  • You can write off what I just said if you want, but nobody will come by here saying that's a great answer because it's not. Even the user who posted it said it's not. Votes correlate to age and views as much as they do to usefulness.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 1:07
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    @Radiodef I'm not saying it's a great answer by any means but there are a hell of a lot of answers with more views that don't have +11/-2.
    – Air
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 1:14
  • As the author of the post in question I added an answer for this, you may be interested to read it.
    – Motti
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 7:33

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