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A question on the style of commenting on answers from low-rep users.

Prompted by the comment today on this answer: https://stackoverflow.com/a/29271849/1927206

I don't remember seeing much discussion directly about what to do with this type of answer from a new user.

I know of "downvote and move on", but I'm not sure that works (in that I'm pretty sure it doesn't) in low-volume tags.

I try to be clear when I comment. If the answer has some worth, but is wrong, I comment. If the user takes note of the comment, I try to tidy them away and suggest that the user does so with any of their responses.

If the answer is just plain wrong and has no worth in its current state, but is an attempt at an answer, I do the same. The "no worth" means not much encouraging in the comment, for sure.

So, for someone who blandly kicks in a one-line assertion that is easily disproved, should we attempt to get improvement/removal by the user by being straight, or... something else?

Here's some background on why I don't downvote: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/287647/1927206

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  • You still just downvote; on blatantly wrong answers I usually leave a comment, and then move on. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 10:13
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    We don't need to try and have the answer removed. By downvoting we indicate that the answer is wrong and unhelpful. If the OP wants to keep the answer there than there is at least a record of how not to solve the question. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 10:14
  • @MartijnPieters I suppose my stance on downvoting means my thought that the situation is common to other users (commenting on wrong answers) does not bear up well under testing :-) Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 10:17
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    I prefer to comment such answers like as follows: without an explanation, this answer may become useless in case if someone else posts an opposite opinion. For example, if someone posts a claim like "32bit compiled Cobol program will run on windows 64bit. you will not need windows 8 32bit", how would this answer help reader to pick of two opposing opinions? Consider editing it into a better shape, to fit How to Answer guidelines
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 11:23
  • @gnat, that all looks fine, except the answer is already useless, not "may become", due to the pre-existing answer and comments. I'm not so much worried about this answer specifically, but in general. I'm not sure that something requires "if someone posts a claim" is required, or even desirable, when an answer is factually wrong. Perhaps it is difficult when "a person's understanding of fact" is conflated with being an actual fact? But my unsurety is why I asked the question. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 11:41
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    well I prefer to stick with comment like above even when I believe that answer is incorrect (FWIW when I think it's correct, I still stick with it). I think in cases like you describe it is much more important to first teach answerer explain their reasoning prior to diving into specific technical matters
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 12:46
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    @gnat OK, fair point. I don't want to discourage people from answering, but I don't want to encourage just any-old-answer. Usually the answers I see are language-factual incorrect, rather than this type. Not sure this is a duplicate, as I'm interested in how new users should be received in comments when their answers are wrong. Specifically without downvoting involved. Realised after Martijn's comment this probably makes it something of an Off-community question. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 13:14
  • Woo. Now I have to edit my question to explain how it is different? Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 13:16
  • "I don't want to discourage people from answering, but I don't want to encourage just any-old-answer" -- I think you nailed it. Useless answers are worse than wrong in my book. (Side note wrt explaining the difference, it's a recent feature, see New UI encourages askers to confirm or dispute duplicate votes)
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 13:23
  • @gnat thanks for that link to the answers. Took me a while to spot they were even different... I watched the discussion on the new UI, but I don't see how I can be obliged to edit my question if I think the suggested duplicate is wrong :-) I missed that interpretation in the original discussion, so serves me right now... Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 14:03
  • you're not alone in being confused with these answers: Top answers duplicated on community wiki question :)
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 14:39

2 Answers 2

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I'll very gladly leave a comment to help an answerer to improve his post. But, hmya, what could possibly be done with this post to improve it? As-is, it is rather harmful to anybody that reads it and actually thinks it is accurate. Not just a little harmful either, re-installing an operating system is an enormous time drain. And there isn't any way they can tell it is accurate either, the claim isn't backed-up with any reasoning, secondary evidence or supporting links.

In a case like this, Mr Spock would exclaim that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few. Or the one, it isn't like the poster is going to lose any rep over this.

Afaict, you are only asking this question because you interacted with another SO user that is very strongly inclusionary. That is his personal belief, it isn't exactly a mainstream approach to how we deal with bad answers. We vote on posts, not people. I'd recommend you follow your gut-feeling, it is surely the correct one.

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My particular comments there were in the spirit that Can We Please be a bit nicer to new users doesn't just apply to the questioners...but to the answerers too.

(Maybe even moreso, because they're "trying to help"? But I dunno, probably just equal.)

The system is disorienting to people who are unfamiliar, and the evolution of StackOverflow has sort of Craigslist-style stagnated for years now. Most new features surround making new sites and triage, plus dev cycles for winter hats and april fool's jokes...not basic usability improvements, or tending to feature suggestions or even trying them on Meta. What-color-is-the-icon or what-font-in-the-CSS is taking precedence over helping new users have a good experience. This is a gripe for me, personally. (See also "Triage All Feature Requests")

We shouldn't really have to be the ones who prod and poke and get the discoverability of the "edit" button into the consciousness of the person with the Q or A. If you get downvoted it should have a "what does this mean, what do I do about it" that points that out. But until such magic comes online, I think that sometimes the best service to a bad answer is to make a pointed comment asking for clarification and bring their attention to the edit button.

I agree with you that this was a poor answer that needed some help. So I looked around for a good generic resource link to help. For bad questions there's a fair amount to bring up...but it seems for answerers less. This is what shows up in the help center:

https://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-answer

If I had a downvote to put on that, I would. It doesn't address this kind of thing at all, and is a bit useless. So I'd suggest making that page better would be a good start.

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  • What-color-is-the-icon or what-font-in-the-CSS is taking precedence over helping new users have a good experience. Citation required. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 10:34
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    @MartijnPieters Examine the feature request tag and lack of triage. Count status-declined or status-implemented, and that's not the meta.SE. Yet there was plenty of time for hats, tamagochi jokes, and new site design. My feature mentioned hasn't been tried, no fixed width replies in chat. Deleting upvoted content with no warning speaks for itself. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 10:39
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    @MartijnPieters But me trying to bring attention to it in this answer is off-topic, but only because another tool was cut off...you can't bounty meta posts any more. I'm forced to slipstream it. That said, I think a little bit more of the "WAIT! DON'T PUSH THAT BUTTON!" checklist for NEW users, giving them a chance to have a second thought...reminders that they can edit...would improve both questions and answers. But I can't try that out, because SE won't. And I personally am too busy to make my own competing Q&A site. Stalemate. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 10:44
  • So if I'd commented, "Actually this is not the case, as the already existing answer and comments from 11 days ago indicate" it would have been better? I think "new answerers" are different from "new questioners". Questioners want an answer. Answerers want..., well, much, much more difficult to tell, when their first answer is, um, lacking. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 10:50
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    @BillWoodger I obviously think you had teachable points, I was encouraging "teach" vs. "turn-off". If you were going to take time to personally engage with written words, I'd suggest seeing that as an opportunity. And taking advantage of that opportunity might be best framed as a question that makes people think, vs. an attack plus "you are of no use to anyone, Q.E.D." - I told you what I would have said. "I built program X with compiler Y and it worked. So this isn't always true...want to clarify? (you can edit your question)" Otherwise downvote and move on (if that's your style). Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 10:54
  • Yes, but I haven't done that (I don't have access to Windows8 with any bits) I've read the comments and the answer (11 days previously) and know that even if by some odd fluke Windows8 just plain doesn't run any 32-bit compiled programs (of any language, from any previous Windows operating-system, even Windows 7) then I know there are options to be attempted. The answer is flat wrong without my having to have a single shred of physical proof, which I don't have. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 11:01
  • @BillWoodger You're nitpicking about something you haven't tried yourself? :-/ What if all existing COBOL compilers for Win32, due to some dependency fluke...make executables that won't run w/o VM on Win8/64? Answers can be wrong. Plus I can theoretically answer every question on StackOverflow that doesn't posit something uncomputable or paradoxical is possible that the answer "No you can't do that" is wrong...you can inject code..Turing completeness/etc. At the level of "I don't need physical proof to say your answer is wrong" in something you've not tested... that's not useful. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 11:06
  • I am plenty active here on this Meta and on Meta.SE; you may have missed this post, or perhaps this tag or se-quality-project. The fun you refer to was either developed in people's spare time (StackEgg) or aimed at keeping users engaged at a time of low visitor numbers. I for one appreciate those efforts. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 11:13
  • No :-) Even if there were some weird dependency which were to somehow affect all COBOL compilers for 64-bit but none for 32-bit (let's put that at some phantasmically small percentage, but possible) then the comments and answer, from 11 days previously, already address that such that a diktat to uninstall Windows 8 64-bit and install Windows 8 32-bit if you want it to work is nothing but baloney. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 11:14
  • @MartijnPieters I don't recall questioning your involvement in talking or commenting about stuff on meta. (?) And I, too, like the StackEgg and Hats. But it would feel better if the system felt like it was constantly improving the cycle of sign up, join, participate in a healthy way and A/B testing that. It doesn't feel like that ATM...and for me the SE quality project looks like this Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 11:24
  • @HostileFork: my mistake; I meant se-quality-project; I linked to the Stack Overflow tag (which doesn't exist) vs. the tag here on this Meta. You were implying the developers are not doing anything helpful, I disagree. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 11:26
  • @MartijnPieters Well, as a closed-source effort that people choose to trust I've been frustrated w/feelings my past trust was unfounded. Notice my response to my blog being pasted into SO and shrugging it off and saying okay...and then reversing my opinion as the system seemed less and less accountable. I'm not saying you aren't doing the best you can, but I'm saying this site acts and behaves like it did years ago...and there's a clear absence of "with great power comes great responsibility" thinking from whoever is in charge now. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 11:39
  • @HostileFork: hrm, I am more and more convinced that discussion with you is not going to be very fruitful. I'm stepping away from this. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 11:44
  • How to Answer could definitely use some love. If you have concrete suggestions, please post a discussion or feature-request on either Meta Stack Exchange or this site (the latter if your suggestions are very SO-specific).
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 17:44

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