43

In this thread, I had posted two comments. One in reply to the thread, which was along the lines of:

And hypothetically after two or three years when you've finally earned your bronze badge, will you have felt anything? Probably not.

Then a response to another user below:

Because it's a feature request.

However I have just discovered that the OP posted this comment:

I have just requested the deletion and termination of all of my SO accounts. I flagged the comment made by @remyabel up top as "Not constructive" as it was flat out an insult. The flag was declined, and my question about that on Meta was voted down. I was told that the bar is "much higher for Not constructive" on Meta as discussion is encouraged. Apparently, insults are "discussion." It has been wonderful this past year--good luck to all of you in your endeavors. Since, apparently, I was more interested in points and badges than helping people, I'm sure I won't be missed.

Obviously, this is quite upsetting. I have deleted my two comments and was not even aware a meta thread was created (either way, it seems to have been deleted now.) I realize at times that I can post slightly antagonistic comments but it is never my intent to insult or offend anybody. Although I don't want to make this all about me and somehow imply that I am directly responsible for the user's leaving of the site, they did call me out directly and suggest they had a negative experience in the deleted thread.

It's my immediate reaction to post an apology to the user, but I don't know if that is the correct choice. The last thing I want to do is cause more trouble.

If this thread is inappropriate, I will delete it instantly.

6
  • 14
    If you wish, you can always assure the person in question that you did not intend to insult them - sometimes soothing a bruised ego (even if it has been bruised far too easily, as seems to be the case) can help. You are entirely free to apologise if you wish, but within a community, if someone is excessively sensitive and thrives on extracting apologies at a drop of a hat, it may not do them (or the community) any good in the long term to give in to that.
    – halfer
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 20:26
  • 15
    I do sometimes wonder how some people ever survive in the big bad internet. You was being blunt, not insultive, sometimes the truth hurts
    – Sammaye
    Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 13:59
  • 3
    Something of a digital problem. Email is susceptible to this too Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 16:57
  • I don't think I understand your original comment; why is it insulting? I'm not sure what you mean by "felt anything," but if anything, it sounds like you're agreeing with the OP, since (as I read your comment) you're pointing out one of the flaws of the current system. (Right?) Commented Mar 20, 2015 at 18:04
  • 1
    Also, it sounds like you may be suffering from mild scrupulosity. Commented Mar 20, 2015 at 18:06
  • others feelings are not your responsibility
    – user177800
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 0:33

10 Answers 10

34

There are a couple of really good answers already; I think the OPs approach and Carrie Kendall's in particular do a nice job of addressing this particular situation, and how to approach comments in general, respectively.

But I think the answers here are split between two very different questions:

"Should I apologize" is not the same thing as "Did I do something bad?"

Apologizing is often way to express empathy, not necessarily an admission of guilt.

I'd bucket things you might apologize for into three categories:

  1. I was bad. A bad action you knew was bad at the time. (Stealing something you don't need.)
  2. I didn't mean to be bad, but apparently was. An action that you don't know is societally unacceptable, but most others in the community do. (Showing the soles of your feet to someone in much of the middle east as a westerner, or calling an Asian person "oriental" in the US, say)
  3. Someone is acting like I was bad, but it's confusing to me and most others. This is when someone appears to many to be overreacting. An action that most people wouldn't find problematic or hurtful, but is hurtful to someone in a given situation.

A lot of life's little social conflicts fall between #2 and #3. I'll come back to where I personally think this one lives in a sec. First:

When should you apologize?

If you care about doing the right thing, you have to apologize for...

  1. Bad and knew it. Because you owe it - you know what you did wrong, and should own it.
  2. Bad by local standards, but didn't know it. Because you now know that you did something that caused a harm predictable to most, and you'll likely adjust to prevent in the future. But there's no soul searching to do - it wasn't your fault. It's literally "I'm sorry; I meant no offense, but now know how I caused it."
  3. Seems like an overreaction. Well, here's the tricky one. You don't really owe an apology, but that's not the key question. The key question is whether it will help. And much of the time, it will, and can do so without it costing anything:

"It seems clear that my wording offended you. Please accept my apology - that was truly not my intent."

Note that it does all of the helpful things an apology is good for, with no real costs:

  • It's honest
  • It respects that you care about the other person's experience, whether you can relate to it or not
  • It doesn't make it seem like you and the whole community have to adjust to some new level of eggshell-walking
  • It doesn't make the apologizing-for-what-s-wrong-with-you mistake ("I'm sorry you felt that weird way")

Did you do something really bad in this case?

No. Not really, but your probably could do a little better, in predictable ways, which your answer already addresses. I'd mostly put this in category 3 - the reaction you got was, IMO, much stronger than most people would expect from your comments. But it has a little bit of category 2:

While I wouldn't call it "insulting," it's not shocking the OP had a negative reaction to me because it's dismissive. Their question is how to make a thing that they are obviously thinking about work better, and your response sort of implies that thinking or caring about such things at all is a frivolous waste.

To be clear, I think the OP meant no offense, and found their response (linked above) appropriate. But in a case when someone finds a somewhat dismissive comment hurtful, my advice?

Tell them you're sorry, and that wasn't your intent. It helps a lot, and costs roughly nothing.

4
  • 4
    "It helps a lot, and costs roughly nothing" good point.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 22:37
  • 4
    Well said. Being justified isn't always a good reason not to apologize. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 23:07
  • 2
    If you extract everything from the first header to the last, it would make a great blog post! Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 22:31
  • I disagree with the use of the word "apologize"; an apology is "a regretful acknowledgment of an offense or failure," not an expression of sympathy/empathy/etc. You can apologize for your part in the misunderstanding, or feel sorry that the misunderstanding occurred, or perhaps qualify your apology, but IMO the OP's case calls for little more than "I'm sorry you were offended". Commented Oct 23, 2015 at 15:12
92

That is a massive overreaction by the OP, and it has continued in this very thread.

They outright rejected the notion of growing a thicker skin and decided to instead loudly announce that they were "leaving" and had "deleted all [their] accounts". But not before spending a while complaining about some perceived injustice, of course... despite the fact that you had not been noticeably insulting in the slightest. If anything, the only victim of injustice here is you, as the whole drama has clearly upset you.

I would simply ignore this rather than give this issue any more attention.

9
  • 13
    While I do agree with @Eric (and Chris) that the original comment was useless (you can post "Should you care?" under every meta post, it doesn't add to the discussion), his reaction on that comment and everything since is way beyond reasonable.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 11:47
  • 22
    I agree this was an overreaction, and for many people reading this "just walk away" is going to be the best advice. That said, I think you're mischaracterizing the comment that sparked this: any time you speculate on someone else's motivations, there's a strong chance you'll offend or irritate them in some way. Rarely is that the intent - but that doesn't change the reaction... And pretty much all of us have reacted badly to such comments at one point or another, regardless of age.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 22:22
  • 2
    @Shog9: Maybe but if the OP had followed the "assume good faith" rule then there would not have been any problem ;) Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 22:37
  • 7
    Which OP? Regardless, "he started it" isn't usually a great justification; if you're looking to resolve a situation (which the OP here appears to be) then "determine where to assign blame" isn't really a solution. I think remyabel nailed it: regardless of whether or not someone else behaved appropriately, it's worth trying to treat others with respect simply as a way of setting the tone for all those who come after.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 23:27
  • 2
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit: AAGFAAGF.... Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 1:43
  • 2
    @NathanTuggy: There comes a point where assumptions are justifiably overridden by observation. The OP outright accused remy of being a little sh!te then stormed off the entire site over it — that's hardly assuming good faith ;) Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 2:12
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: Sure, I'm just kind of pointing out the back and forth of AGFing. Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 2:14
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: The first objected-to-comment wasn't really asking for thicker-skin-building, but rather for self-reflection about a possible future insight or capacity for self knowledge. The commenter was attempting to reach a set of neurons in that person's humor centers. I completely agree that the reaction was excessive, but I think it could be be seen as an implicit criticism of insufficient perspective. Love your screen-name BTW.
    – IRTFM
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 20:54
  • @42-: So do I :) Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 21:52
38

Sometimes we can post a casual or flippant comment that can be considered offensive. Sometimes people are determined to be offended — some people are just that way, and it's always someone else's fault that they're offended; they've never stopped and considered that they're the one in the wrong. If someone posts something on Meta then they have to be prepared for others to disagree with them; they need to put their big boy pants on and take the disagreement on the chin and move on.

Should I apologize?

That really depends. Was your comment offensive or were you just a bit loose with your phrasing? Is it a cultural thing? Is there any value in tendering an apology?

We don't want comment chains turning into blame and apology fests. Nor do we want to indulge people when they go and rage quit. If a mod saw fit to decline the flag, then chances are there was nothing wrong with the comment.

15
  • 3
    Disagreement and personal insult are not the same. I think your answer here just serves to reaffirm that I am making the right decision to leave.
    – user3174746
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 1:49
  • 25
    @EricTaylor I'm actually glad that you've stuck around and that you're reading this. Lots of people leave Stack Overflow, and they do it for lots of different reasons. We understand that, and it's up to you. But you also need to understand that nobody is going to stop you, nobody is going to say "Wait, come back...". If it's not the site for you, then best of luck - maybe we'll be of use to you sometime in the future.
    – slugster
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 2:03
  • 3
    @EricTaylor I left another Stack Exchange site for similar reasons (in my case I disagreed w/ a mod). slugster: The community should indeed say "wait, come back" - otherwise, the site risks being known as an unfriendly place.
    – Sabuncu
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 9:25
  • 27
    @Sabuncu the community can't realistically say "wait, come back" to every user who rage-quit or, to a lesser degree, decided to take their ball and go play at home. It's one of those things that "doesn't scale." Of course, when there is a meta topic such as this one there are voices that say "wait, don't leave". And the hurdles put in place on purpose to require extra effort in order to delete one's account is the system's way of saying the same. While this is a community, one shouldn't expect to get personalized attention to that degree. SO is free and the Internet is big. Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 9:47
  • 11
    @WilliamPrice Your comment - "take their ball and go play at home" - is an example of patronizing and insensitive attitude towards users which may lead to the perception that might build over time. The Internet is big, but SO is an established site. It may be free for the users, but there is economic/commercial activity taking place nontheless. No one wants to see users being chased away due to hostile activity. I also don't agree w/ your comment about inability to scale - there is hierarchy imposed on the site, and each user is dealt with individually, despite the total number of users.
    – Sabuncu
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 10:21
  • 26
    @Sabuncu I used the "ball" phrase specifically because there are cases where people choose to remove themselves rather than learn to get along despite a mere difference of opinion or perception. When an individual fits in that category, I am indifferent. I don't have time to identify them, hunt down their contact information, apologize for something I likely wasn't a party to in the first place, and beg them to return. If that makes me "insensitive", it is born out of practical necessity not hostility. Nothing I've said was aimed at any individual nor the collective of all users. Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 10:47
  • 26
    @Sabuncu: If you honestly perceived "patronisation" or "insensitivity" in the idiom "take their ball and go play at home", then that is the problem, not SO. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 11:56
  • 5
    If a person doesn't like the smell of cows then they choose not to live in the countryside, rather than asking farmers to stop keeping cattle. It's unrealistic to expect other people to change solely in response to ones own perceptions. To stay happy in life, it's essential to either learn that other people are different and tolerate their remarks, or accept ones own intolerance towards other points of view and distance yourself from them. The "ball" phrase is a poetic way of saying the latter, which is probably why it might be construed by some as being patronising or insensitive. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 16:31
  • 1
    @Sabuncu: the phrase "take their ball and go home" is an established phrase, and I don't think William here was intending to be patronising. It means that, in the act of the leaving, the rage-quitter may be intending to inflict a final act of revenge against the community they perceive to have harmed them.
    – halfer
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 20:29
  • 3
    @halfer Of course I wasn't intending to be patronising, but I do see how it might be perceived as such. I might have communicated it differently, but I was running up against the comment length limit and thought that it fit my meaning succinctly. As I cannot unring that bell, all I ask is that readers give me a little benefit of the doubt. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 21:28
  • @halfer What makes you think I don't know the meaning of the phrase?!
    – Sabuncu
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 22:22
  • 4
    I'd like to share why I became part of this conversation: I love what I learn from the Q/A's on SO. But I am on pins and needles when I come to the site, because it can be very, very unfriendly. That's why EricTaylor's predicament rang true w/ me.
    – Sabuncu
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 22:39
  • 11
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit, "taking one's ball and going home" and "throwing one's toys out of the pram" are belittling. They're idioms, but the point of both of their constructions is to imply that you're acting like a petulant child or baby would. (I'm NOT suggesting this poster intended to be belittling- his comment makes clear he didn't.)
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 22:48
  • @Sabuncu: I did not even know that one could leave a specific SE site? Is this something one could do from its profile page or something?
    – WoJ
    Commented Jun 5, 2015 at 13:46
  • @WoJ I don't remember the specifics but I remember contacting the English stackexchange site via "Contact us" after which I think I was sent a link which also had a short questionnaire to be answered.
    – Sabuncu
    Commented Jun 5, 2015 at 15:44
20

There are quite a few answers here but, in my opinion, a majority of them seem to focus on the culture that frequents meta and main. Let's take out the weird social rules of (M)SO for a second and assume you had to say it to the person's face.

Here is an approach that I've tried to take for a few years now. Ask yourself prior to posting:

Will this be taken the right way? Could it be worded better and mitigate giving someone the wrong idea?

  • If it could be taken the wrong way, then hold off and check your intentions. If you feel like you have the right intentions, then consider rewording it and make sure that your meaning comes through in the text literally. Text-based chat can often lose context.

  • If not, continue on.

This is a lot of responsibility considering that you're just making a comment but, that's the cost of a professional attitude on a social forum like Stack Exchange.

1
  • 4
    Ha ha! I mean this kindly: in a post presenting how to comment with sensitivity and understanding, labelling two communities as "socially inept" might be case of the pot calling the kettle black :-D.
    – halfer
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 21:39
6

I would say that in the context of the post in questions your responses were mild and less of an issue than others. Now I don't think you were particularly constructive (of course I don't know where in the comments you posted - if you were first it would have been more relevant), but certainly not insulting.

The principle of charity, should mean that we allow for the possibility of a gap between intent and interpretation. Most people don't go out of their way to be insulting, however, on the internet it is easy to appear that way.

I believe that the OP should have initially responded in a similar way to how I dealt with the statement that I would be fired for my sloppy code formatting, in that I asked for effort on their part to make their statement constructive by clarifying with actionable points.

Then, when asked for clarification you could've made a statement that elaborated in such a way that showed the intent better.

Of course, we're now at the point where this is a matter that is unlikely to be resolved as it's become a matter of principle to both of you. Nothing good can come of this for either of you so I would apologise and move on with your life.

5

Communication is about what the other person hears, not what you said. If it fails, there is no harm in saying that you wish you had been clearer somehow. A proper statement of that could also wake up the recipient to the possibility that they had been over-sensitive, if that was the case.

"I apologize" expresses an action, taking responsibility for something done or said, or omitted.

"I am sorry" literally means, "I am filled with sorrow" (or possibly regret). This is why people say "I am sorry" when something unfortunate has happened, it is about a feeling, not an action that they took.

It can be appropriate to say I am sorry - that a miscommunication occurred - but it is likely to seem patronizing (as it seems to push it off on to the recipient). I apologize is almost always appropriate within a community. It expresses a desire to do better in the future.

Someday, we will see the internet as a community, and act like we live with each other. Of course, we have been saying that about the world as a whole for a long time now. (I'm not holding my breath.)

1

I fully believe you meant well, but the comment:

And hypothetically after two or three years when you've finally earned your bronze badge, will you have felt anything? Probably not.

I admit -- it's hard to see this comment as constructive, and it's rather trivial to see it as offensive to a party prepared to be injured. I think you've done the right thing by deleting the comment, and I think further conversation with him or her is unlikely to be helpful.

To elaborate, to say "after two or three years when you've finally earned your bronze badge" (emphasis added) just strikes me as plainly ad hominem. Possibly I'm being too sensitive, but my advice would be to shy away from any sort of sentiment that can easily be construed as an attack. And I genuinely think it's not much of a struggle to interpret condescension from these words.

18
  • 2
    I wasn't prepared to be injured. I was prepared to engage in a serious and productive discussion about statistical normalization.
    – user3174746
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 1:47
  • 2
    @Eric, I chose my words poorly in consideration of your viewing of them. :) My intent was not to admonish you for being sensitive, but rather to point out that words can be construed as offensive and the OP should be aware of that. Please accept my apology in that I had no intention of criticizing your behavior.
    – Kirk Woll
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 1:49
  • 1
    No need to apologize. I was just clarifying what I was prepared to do or be. I think you're right, though: Perhaps sometimes we all find ourselves in a position of being prepared to be injured. I'm just saying that, for me, this wasn't one of them.
    – user3174746
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 1:51
  • 21
    I respectfully disagree. My interpretation of when you've finally earned is to read exactly what was written - once that two or three years has passed and you've finally received it (meaning once that time has passed and the badge is awarded). There's nothing offensive here, and there's nothing ad hominem about it. Once the time finally arrives when you've earned the badge, will you have felt anything? is a reference to the badge having no actual value IRL. I've never felt an amazing sense of wonder or relief or reward or glory when receiving a badge (or anything else) on SO.
    – Ken White
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 3:56
  • 1
    @KenWhite It is possible that your interpretation of the poster's comment is correct, now after I've read it a hundred times. But so what? What does the poster's comment have to do with statistical normalization in the merit system? In a proper debate, his comment seems like a bit of a red herring to me. Did the poster intend for me, or us, to conclude that, since there's only virtual meaning and not real meaning in points and badges, there is no valid reason for discussing the soundness of the merit system that awards them, no need to endeavor to refine it?
    – user3174746
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 6:00
  • 9
    @Eric: Perhaps the poster meant to convey exactly what was said, which was that there is no actual impact in deferred gratification when it comes to badges. Perhaps the poster meant to point out that life does not drastically change once you receive the badge. Or perhaps the poster simply meant to post an opinion. The point is that the poster is entitled to express an opinion, just as you are. I can see being offended if the comment were a personal insult, but it was a comment. How, in fact, will your life be impacted if you don't get that badge for two years?
    – Ken White
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 6:27
  • 1
    @KenWhite You're simply missing the whole point of my post, as did the poster of that comment. It wasn't about me, per se, it was about the merit system. I could have used anyone's plight in an unpopular topic to make the illustration.
    – user3174746
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 6:32
  • 29
    @Eric: You're missing the point. Your implication that it was a personal insult is wrong. Your flag was declined, and you're playing the "I'm mad, so I won't play here any more" card. You're right. Your post wasn't about you, and the comment posted wasn't about you specifically either, and your over-reaction to it is just that - an over-reaction. You need to grow a thicker skin and understand that not everyone agrees with you, and that it's acceptable for others to express their thoughts as well. I post in a somewhat niche set of tags as well, and I expect no special consideration for it.
    – Ken White
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 6:47
  • 4
    @Eric: Whether one is a user or a mod, missing the point of a post (or missing the point of a comment) can happen sometimes. I personally don't see this as something worth deleting one's account over. Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 6:48
  • @StephanBranczyk It's not, on its own, and I'm not so petty. It is an accumulation of issues.
    – user3174746
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 6:53
  • @KenWhite No, I do not need to grow a "thicker skin." What I need to do is delete my SO accounts and move on to more productive endeavors. I received a response from SE, and instructions. The deletion should happen soon. Good luck to all...
    – user3174746
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 6:54
  • @Eric: OK. We'll miss you. Be sure to write. :-)
    – Ken White
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 6:58
  • 1
    @Eric: Thank you for noticing the smile and not taking offense. Perhaps you'll find a use for us in the future and we'll see you again.
    – Ken White
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 7:02
  • 18
    Could you elaborate who you see an ad hominem in that, because I don't get it? Do you interpret that "finally" to mean "it will take you, the OP, a very long time to get the badge, much longer than anybody else, haha!"? Even that hardly seems to be a personal attack since the whole base of the discussion was the OP stating that it would take him a long time to get the badge, much longer than many other people.
    – sth
    Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 14:22
  • 18
    @sth This is just another example of people not understanding what "ad hominem" means. Not every insult or personal attack is an "ad hominem" (only when they are falsely used to prop up an argument!), and the comments weren't even those. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 11:44
1

User claims one of my comments was an insult, should I apologize?

If you are sorry for making the comment, then yes, you should apologize. Given that you've removed the comment, it seems you honestly feel bad for making the comment.

If you're not sorry about the comment per se, but sorry that the comment was taken the wrong way, yes, you should apologize. Given that you made this post, it seems you are genuinely concerned that the comment was taken the wrong way.

Personally, I thought the comment was a tiny bit rude, though not terribly so. I can say it two or three different ways in my head, and at least one of those ways comes across as offensive. Try putting emphasis on the word "finally" in the phrase "finally earned your bronze badge", for example. That's the problem with written communication - inflection in your head may not match the inflection in mine.

Being genuinely apologetic takes seconds, and can potentially reap a lot of benefits.

4
  • 5
    Acknowledging that someone else is hyper-sensitive might make one realize engaging them at all was a mistake. Doesn't mean the comment was inappropriate though. And while apologizing for them being hypochonders is fast, doing so will just validate their belief of having been slighted. Sometimes, just walking away is best. (Just a counter-point.) Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 12:51
  • @Deduplicator: what is wrong with validating their belief of having been slighted? I honestly don't see the harm. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 13:22
  • 9
    The problem with validating their belief of having been slighted is they have no reason to re-think their own reaction. As recognition that there is something to learn is a pre-condition to eventually learning, that's counter-productive. Assuming they are reaching, naturally. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 13:52
  • @Deduplicator: ok, thanks for the follow-up. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 15:25
1

This type of response is often used when person A cannot have empathy for person B.

The person obviously cared about the bronze badge. He cared enough to make a post about it trying to get feedback from like minded people, people who might explain why it is the way it is, and then didn't expect the type of rhetoric from you.

You say : And hypothetically after two or three years when you've finally earned your bronze badge, will you have felt anything? Probably not.

What on earth could you possibly be basing that assertion on? Do you know the person well enough to be able to say they will not feel anything when that milestone is reached?

Maybe this person will be ecstatic for working so long and hard on the badge to have finally earned it.

Maybe they don't care and just noticed, why is this badge taking so much longer than the other badges?

So ultimately yes your comment was rude and lacking empathy or even basic understanding of users question.

You reacted the way most people do, you thought, well I wouldn't really care about a silly old bronze badge, so why should this person? It was a quick non-thought out response to an inquiry.

So yes, in my opinion you were being kind of a jerk.

1
  • 2
    Yeah, the offending comment can most charitably be read as "meh," which is like the archetypal non-constructive sentiment. Asking SO mods (or anyone) to police comments for tone and constructiveness is not a good idea (though a blog I like does have a policy of manually deleting "meh"s), but to me it's clear why the OP on that thread was offended.
    – Frank
    Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 18:03
-15

Yes, just apologise - costs you nothing. Even if you are completely in the right and the person does not accept your apology, 'blessed are the peacemakers'. (Anyone whom has been married will appreciate this)

You must log in to answer this question.