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One of the greatest assets SO offers to the community is that the forum is contributed to by an international group of contributors.

Recently, there has been a huge influx of users with other native languages (writing from the perspective of being a predominantly English speaker) on Stack Overflow. More often than not, I get the impression that a growing number of these other-language speakers fall into a category defined by two criteria:

  1. Not understanding the culture that Stack Overflow has attempted to define in its help documentation; and
  2. (Consequently) changing the culture of Stack Overflow to be a Question-Answer site where any question receives a fully-fledged answer (see current second answer), regardless of quality or contribution to SO's best-in-class status as a reference site (months ago the linked question would have been blasted away by downvotes; see note, below).

Note: I am aware of and fully support Stack Overflow's attempt to change the community to be kinder and more helpful toward new users; however, despite these positive changes, there is another change happening.

I do not want to be presumptuous or exclusive by saying "Things must be written in the Queen's English" - that is not how I feel and is ultimately a very bigoted standpoint. Some of the best questions often are asked initially in a very choppy manner and then improved later.

So, this question is twofold:

  1. Has anybody else noticed this change (a change in culture1, perhaps driven by a lack of understanding of the standards encouraged by SO and possibly based upon not having access to understandable standards documentation); and
  2. What can we do to better ensure that people are aware of Stack Overflow's question standards as the boundaries of SO's reach continue to expand, particularly for international contributors?

Here's a bit more insight into my discussion-based question based on some of the excellent suggestions posed by answers and comments (here, I am quoting from my own comment, below, as I hope it will be at least mildly clarifying):

I need to reiterate that the problem I am pointing out is not the lacking quality of English in international posts; but rather, a change in the question quality and culture surrounding questions as a result of a lack of a centralized, non-English resource (or resources) that act as a primer for non-English speakers. As an other-language speaker, myself, there are definitely times where it would be nicer reading things in my native language.


1 I include this as I think definition of the term "culture" is helpful for this question. While a relatively simple article, the article (by proxy) extends the definition of culture to mean, "as shared patterns of behaviors and interactions, cognitive constructs and understanding that are learned by socialization." This is a widely accepted, non-pejorative understanding of the term culture and is the intended use throughout the question.

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  • 4
    Well, we have our tools. Your's is downvoting and flagging regarding your rep level. Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 19:18
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    It's not clear precisely what you are asking here; there are plenty of international users that are providing valuable contributions in excellent English. Many of the issues with low-quality questions are not related to language problems (which can generally be edited out) but with users that either don't know or don't care what SO is here for, having not taken the tour or read the copious help documentation available. Could you revise your question to clarify the issue, please (particularly the title, which is not very helpful as it stands)?
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 19:18
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    @jonrsharpe does SO make their help doc.s available in non-English? And, yes, I will make those revisions. It's a tricky question.
    – Thomas
    Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 19:21
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    @Thomas that's an interesting point - SO only supports English (this version, there is also pt.stackoverflow.com), so providing help documentation in other languages may send the wrong message. That being said, perhaps it's easier for international contributors to read the guidance and understand its nuances in their native language, provided that it's clear that Q/As must be in English. A better target might be clear, easy-to-read English in the guidance (are there any current exceptions to this?), given that we require English in the actual contributions.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 19:23
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    @Thomas I think there might be two questions here - your title talks about the international community, whereas the body is mainly about the level of quality. These don't entirely overlap (there are plenty of people with good English that don't bother to engage positively, and plenty that are trying hard to do so despite the barrier of their language skill). Quality has been debated extensively; perhaps it would be better to focus exclusively on the language issue?
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 19:32
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    I find an increasing distance between questions, that has the ultimate qaulity of any "good" SO question: (1) the person has genuinely struggled with a problem, including a simple google search etc. (2) the scope of the question is well within the boundaries of SO. Maybe some kind of filtering of the first question asked at SO would be adequate. How about automatically assigning a mentor to guide the "newbie" with his first question(s) before it is posted (don't know if newbie is still used).
    – Jens
    Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 19:42
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    @Jens: There is a first posts queue, but it's not very helpful. Part of the plans for the triage system include (or at one point included) a "welcoming" step for new users -- there's a Shog9 post about it on the Big Meta. Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 19:52
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    I'd like to know how a site that was primarily targeted towards English speakers, requesting that new users use English is bigoted? Is it bigoted that I'm expected to spell "colour" as "color"?
    – user764357
    Commented Feb 23, 2015 at 5:32
  • @LegoStormtroopr you misunderstand. I think the expectation that perfect English be the sole criterion for acceptability is "bad" and my statement was merely an acknowledgment of the high quality of some questions whose English could use some assistance.
    – Thomas
    Commented Feb 23, 2015 at 13:15
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    Stack Overflow is not a forum. Commented Feb 23, 2015 at 21:01
  • @πάντα ῥεῖ: "yours" doesn't have an apostrophe in it. ;-)
    – martineau
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 2:36
  • aaaaand the linked question was removed.
    – Gaia
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 12:23
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    @Gaia, yeah, I noticed. It is certainly a palm-to-face situation for me. Also, I need to reiterate that the problem I am pointing out is not the lacking quality of English in international posts; but rather, a change in the question quality and culture surrounding questions as a result of a lack of a centralized, non-English resource (or resources) that act as a primer for non-English speakers. As an other-language speaker, myself, there are definitely times where it would be nicer reading things in my native language.
    – Thomas
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 12:51
  • Hi, I'm a foreign speaker and I'm a long-time Stack Overflow (as well as Stack Exchange) contributor. I have a voice in the local programmer community when it comes to SO-related matters. I'd appreciate a cultural review of my profile and any feedback rising from that. Would you take the minute to help make international Stack Overflow better? Thanks in advance.
    – ulidtko
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 15:37
  • @ulidtko I am not sure if you are being tongue-in-cheek; however, I do not mean "culture" to be some hegemonic assertion of a vague cultural notion. SO's community has a "culture" that is clearly defined in its user documentation - we hurt ourselves by not clearly providing that to a wider audience. One commentor writes - for instance - "SO is not a forum". This is a definition of the parameters within which we communicate, ask questions, and answer questions on SO, e.g. no homework questions. It is a protocol definition where "something is seen as acceptable" and something is not.
    – Thomas
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 16:13

5 Answers 5

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I almost tuned out when you said "Recently". Stack Overflow has always been overwhelmingly international and there's no evidence that anything has changed.

That said, you make a very good point that communicating the site's standards, philosophy, and mores to people who are not native English speakers could possibly be done in other languages.

Somebody who is not fluent in English and does not take the time to lurk on Stack Overflow or read our various "guides to asking questions," but who is nonetheless hell-bent on asking their question in English as best as they can, might be far more willing to read a guide on "how to ask your question successfully on Stack Overflow" if that guide was written in their own language.

This actually sounds like a pretty good idea to me. The "localized" guides might just be, at minimum, translations of How to Ask, but might also include local color, and, of course, a friendly reminder that questions and answers must be in English.

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  • Maybe I've just only then become aware of it ("recently" being in reference to my awareness, then?) - as you can see, I haven't been around a long time on SO and still am figuring the question thing out, myself. Thank you for your input.
    – Thomas
    Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 20:43
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    This is what I had in mind; as long as it's explicit that all Qs/As should be in English, localised help would be a valuable resources for our international contributors.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 21:07
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    Related: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/103498/…
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 22:09
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    Perhaps start with the languages whose speakers tend to get into most trouble on Stack Overflow (i.e. Closed, downvoted questions, question bans)? And offer the translated resources based on the user's browser language and region.
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 22:38
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    The first line in every localized Help should say in large, bold, and ALL CAPS (.. not really. The latter is to have some leeway for negotiations) that English is still the only language to communicate in on SO, be it in questions, answers, or comments. Best to cut off that potential loophole right away.
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 22:42
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    I'm not sure how much localized guide would actually help. Users that actually respond to feedback and would read something like this are not the problematic users anyways. My personal guess would be that the language barrier is the least of the problems. It still might be worth to try it, at least for a few major languages. Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 23:08
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    I think the idea of localized help to explain site etiquette is a good one, but I also agree with Jongware - it's important to emphasise that Stack Overflow itself is an English language site. Commented Feb 22, 2015 at 2:00
  • Can we already submit proposals somewhere? I see the common Help pages are not eligible for editing (but my rep may be too low). How will they be judged -- community-wiki style? (An idea: perhaps translations can be put here on Meta and marked Community.)
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 22, 2015 at 22:59
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    I'll gladly contribute a translation as I'm sure many others will. If it can be in wiki format that'd be really nice. I'll tell you what I told every SE team member that'd listen too - you could really benefit from local usergroups. Commented Feb 22, 2015 at 23:12
  • I would also contribute to translating to Dutch Commented Feb 23, 2015 at 13:01
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    The internet is English. You aren't helping anyone by giving them fish and translating everything for them. Like it or not, if you don't know English in today's real world, you'll end up as a second-hand citizen who depends on others. Particularly, it will be impossible for you to function as a programmer if you don't know English. All documentation, books, resources and the languages themselves are in English. English is a prerequisite skill for programmers and it has always been that way.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 12:32
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    reddit.com does offer a localized version of their rules in the most popular languages. Maybe something like that - repeat the starting sentence in 5-6 most common languages, as a hyperlink, so the user can click on it and be taken to the full page localized in their language.
    – sashoalm
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 13:54
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    If people are expected to write questions/answers in understandable English, they should be able to read the guidelines just the same. Most of those who didn't read the rules didn't bother to look for them or consciously chose to ignore them, I'm willing to bet providing help in other languages will not make things better. It might make them worse, though.
    – 2Dee
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 14:06
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    @Jongware I really wish this would help, but as you said, it's just an excuse, the root of the problem is usually that a lot of new users don't really care about what SO is trying to do but rather just about their own problem and its timely resolution through other people's work. Providing localized help would prevent the use of "I don't understand the rules" as an excuse, but wouldn't solve the main problem of complete disregard for what Lundin called "SO culture or standards", which is, I admit it, quite complex.
    – 2Dee
    Commented Feb 25, 2015 at 13:10
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    As others have noted there could be little gain in this since reading an English page (assuming the text is quite easy to understand) rather than a native-language one surely proves to be a bit harder, but if someone intends to read neither of them that would be of no use. Anyway the effort needed shouldn't be prohibitive. It could be worth trying. Just thinking that I've never read any "I not understand rules sry" sentence in my SO experience. Many people just don't care about the rules.
    – Marco A.
    Commented Feb 25, 2015 at 15:51
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In order to have this discussion, I think we'd need some actual proof that language barriers is a real issue. If someone could run a check on users that wrote posts that got deleted and see where the users come from, then there would be something to discuss. For now, it is all just subjective speculation and prejudices.

And since this is all subjective, I can only give my personal observations and opinions:

I have definitely noticed a rapid quality decline in the past 6 months or so. There's a huge flood of crap constantly hitting the site every day, where it was just a small steam of it earlier. Most of it seems to come from completely new users, that don't care about SO culture or standards.

I can however not see any indication about this being related to language barriers. If I unscientifically check a bunch of random crap posts I have reviewed & recommended for deletion in the low quality review queue, there seems to be no relation between the poster's language skills and the crappiness of the post. There is in fact countless complete crap posts which are written in flawless English.

However, not surprisingly I do observe a direct relation between crap and low rep. The vast majority of the crap posters have a rep < 200, where 1 rep users seem particularly frequent.

I would rather suspect that this whole quality decline is because of "generation Google" who are used at getting instant answers with minimum effort. The quality of the answer becomes secondary, as long as you get it fast, with as little effort as possible.

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    "In order to have this discussion, I think we'd need some actual proof that language barriers is a real issue." This proof usually gets erased because it is considered noise in the places it most often appears - within question texts. So, clearly, language barriers are supposed to be irrelevant, or something.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 16:53
  • Btw today I had one occurrence of a crap post in the low quality queue, which only had one fault: it was written completely in Portuguese. I think the sole reason why this post ended up on the site is the existence of pt.stackoverflow.com. My impression was that the user was fully aware of SO posting policies, they merely made the human mistake of posting on the wrong site by mistake. So adding language-specific sites may as well create more crap on the main SO site, instead of reducing it.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 25, 2015 at 15:31
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    I've been told that pt.SO has had the opposite... someone posting an question in English there. You really can't make this up.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 25, 2015 at 15:33
  • @BoltClock Oh? Well that should be equally bad, as far as the Portuguese users of that site are concerned.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 25, 2015 at 15:34
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If you want to encourage behavior you reward it, and penalize the behavior that you don't want to encourage. I think part of the problem is that often very poorly asked questions get answered relatively quickly often providing the solution for the user.

The problem there, is that it is feeding the bad behavior. The end user could quite easily get into the mindset where they can ask a question of any quality and it'll get a good answer helping them along their way.

I think some of this is a side affect of Gamification. Many users wish to compete and earn reputation to stand out from the crowd and work their way up the ladder. Therefore providing good answers (regardless of question quality) is a good way to earn reputation. I often see the same people answering the same poor questions - and I'd describe it as "points grabbing".

I've left comments along the lines of "you shouldn't answer really poor questions with no effort without guiding the user to help ask better questions", which have been received well, but I think preventing these quick answers is one way to discourage poor question asking.

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    Maybe there should be some connection between reputation gains on answers and the quality of the question? That is, if a question is highly downvoted, you get only 5 rep for answering it. If it's upvoted, you may earn 15 points. So people would not be gaining much by seeking out bad questions. Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 12:52
  • @RealSkeptic: I would suggest no rep gain for a deleted answer (don't think that happens already?) or something similar. Then this would encourage the person answering to first improve the question.
    – Ian
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 12:55
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    I think rep is deleted only if the answer is deleted within a certain time frame. But who is to delete the answer? If the answer is good to a bad question, it's the question that should be deleted. And this doesn't happen very quickly. But community opinion on questions happens quickly. Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 13:30
  • If there were even a requirement that (a) if rep is below 100, the question (b) must have at least one SO question citation. Sure, there might be questions posed where no one has tread before on SO, but unlikely and especially for newbie issues. My sense is that it's not a language problem but a laziness problem where a little bit of mandatory research would either help the OP solve their own issue or reduce the quick-crap question, quick-answer syndrome.
    – lawyeR
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 15:34
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    @lawyeR Yeah I think the real problem is help vampires meta.stackexchange.com/questions/19665/the-help-vampire-problem
    – Ian
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 15:38
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Maybe do it as in reddit's welcome message:

enter image description here

The first line says hello in several languages, each word is a hyperlink that takes you to a localized welcome page.

So we could just repeat "How to Ask?" in several languages, and each is a hyperlink taking you to the localized How to Ask page, and only the English How to Ask is not a hyperlink.

-8

Recently

Stack Overflow was launched in August 2008. When is "recently"?

there has been a huge influx of users with other native languages

There are 59 countries where English is the official first language, but about 3 times as many people speak Mandarin.

Has anybody else noticed this change [to a more kindly, tolerant attitude]

Yes, I think it's a good thing. It is far better to either mark a question as a duplicate with a good link or just answer it well than to vote it into oblivion.

What can we do to better ensure that people are aware of Stack Overflow's question standards

Publish them in other languages.

A root of the problem is that there is no FAQ or single place for good answers to common questions, so it's just easier to answer the question than look for a duplicate.

An FAQ could also be translated into many languages so that non–English speakers could benefit more (and perhaps there would be contributions to the English FAQ from other languages too).

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  • I also speak Mandarin, too! That's exciting,
    – Thomas
    Commented Feb 23, 2015 at 13:35
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    A root of the problem is that there is no FAQ or single place for good answers to common questions Indeed.
    – TaW
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 11:54

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