175

I run out of close votes a lot. In fact, in almost any given day in which I actively participate, I use up all of my close votes! And I am really, in the grand scheme of things, not a very active user on this site.

Here is a graph of the number of unclosed questions with close votes per month:

There are too many poor questions coming into the site at too fast a pace for the current userbase to close them all.

So then, when was the last time this was addressed on meta? As far as I can tell, it was here, in 2011, when the number of close votes on SO was increased to 50. I have placed a bounty on that question, but since this is really a Stack Overflow-specific problem, a discussion here makes more sense.

A certain Cody Gray commented this on the above question back in 2011:

Or possibly, they could increase based on the individual closer's past history, much like has been recently implemented for flagging. If questions that you vote to close are frequently closed (meaning 4 other users agreed with you), you're obviously voting to close in the appropriate circumstances, and your daily allotment of close votes could increase accordingly.

This seems like a reasonable compromise if scaling based on reputation is deemed unfair. Really, though, there's nothing "unfair" about giving people more close votes. Each user still gets a chance to vote exactly once on each question. Users don't get any more weight than they used to (especially, of course, those with gold tag badges).

Now, sure. We need a limit on close votes. But I'd argue that the current number is not enough. Especially with the new Triage queue, it's far too easy to burn through close votes in the close votes queue, then to be left entirely unable to do anything in Triage.

It's already been noted plenty that once we run out of close votes, Triage becomes relatively useless. If no triage-specific improvement gets implemented, I feel that the total number of close votes really needs to be raised. Currently, we're forced to choose between close votes and triage.

What about the robo-reviewers? Well, yes, we should still impose a cap on how many questions can be reviewed in a queue per day to handle that. And yes, there still needs to be a reasonable limit on how many close votes can be cast per day. But even if I spend my daily duty in the queues, I should still have enough close votes left over to close the questions I come across "organically" simply by monitoring the (dismally low-quality) popular tags.

Whether it's an increase across the board, an increase scaled by reputation, or an increase scaled by past close vote history, we need an increase.


Edit

I discussed this in the comments, but I thought I should note it in the question to clarify.

I'm not really complaining about a failure to close all the questions. That won't ever really be fixed. But frankly, I want to be able to close questions that I deem poor. When I run out of close votes, I stop trying to answer questions in poor-quality tags because I'm frustrated I can't close the awful ones. This actually reduces my positive contributions to the site, and I don't imagine I'm alone in that.

I'm actually discouraged from answering questions once I run out of close votes. Is this my problem? Maybe. But it does cause frustration, and I don't think I'm the only person who feels that way.

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  • 3
    Wow. Perhaps we wade through different tags, or you're just on the site more than myself, but I seldom go through more than 25 if I'm concentrating.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:08
  • 96
    Run for moderator - then you get infinity!
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:08
  • 47
    Too many people automatically vote-to-close when they don't understand a question. A lot of questions are closed that should not be.
    – xpda
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:09
  • 2
    This isn't anything new. SO has basically never been able to close all of the questions asked that merit closure. It's been an issue for the entire history of the site (or at least close to it).
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:09
  • 28
    @xpda People should be voting to close a question if they can't understand it. If a question isn't being understood, then it's not clear, which is a reason for closing it. If the author edits it such that it becomes clear what they're asking, then the question can be reopened.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:10
  • 17
    @Servy I'm not really complaining about a failure to close all the questions. That won't ever really be fixed. But frankly, I want to be able to close questions that I deem poor. When I run out of close votes, I stop trying to answer questions in poor-quality tags because I'm frustrated I can't close the awful ones. This actually reduces my positive contributions to the site, and I don't imagine I'm alone in that. Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:12
  • 12
    @Servy I can run out of close votes without using the queues. The popular tags are awful these days. It does not take long for me to run out. Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:14
  • 5
    From another meta site: provide 10k users with more close votes. I'll also point to meta.stackexchange.com/questions/237386/… on MSE which may help too.
    – user289086
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:31
  • 19
    @Servy, I think xpda meant that some users vote to close when the close-voter lacks the necessary knowledge to realize the post is answerable as written (vs. where the poster failed to make it clear enough for someone to answer). Not saying he or she is right; just clarifying what I think was meant there.
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 18:01
  • 6
    @Jaydles Sure, people will always make mistakes. That's true of basically everything, ever. It's why there are 5 votes needed, and why there's a reopen process. If they can't understand the question, but the other readers can, then the question won't actually end up being closed. If it gets closed anyway, it can be easily reopened if lots of readers can understand it. one should always be voting to close a question that they feel isn't understandable. If they're wrong, then things will still work out just fine.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 18:03
  • 10
    Isn't the biggest problem still that ALL users who have the close vote privilege actually use it? Giving more votes to the few that care doesn't provide enough scale to get enough votes on questions. Only orchastrated close vote effort for example as demonstrated by the looking for effort really ensures questions get enough attention to get rightly closed. I don't see that problem solved with your proposal.
    – rene
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 18:12
  • 4
    "perhaps 5 at the bronze level, so people can actually do stuff right away. Then perhaps 15 more at the silver level, which becomes even more useful when you hit gold and unlock the other ability..." (Empowering tag-badge holders part II - let's look at silver?)
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 18:41
  • 12
    @Servy, there are lots of SO questions I don't understand, and it's not the fault of the questions.
    – xpda
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 20:52
  • 6
    @xpda People should be voting to close if they think that the question isn't understandable, not because they don't understand it. Of course, they can still be wrong in their belief that the question isn't understandable. Again, this is why it takes 5 votes to close.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 20:53
  • 2
    Compulsory XKCD reference...
    – nico
    Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 0:05

7 Answers 7

84

Both the number of close votes one can cast and the number of review tasks one can complete in a day are limited. So far as I know, this is a "no, really: stop staring at the screen" measure. But right now the two intersect; any (close) votes one casts in /review also count against your full daily total.

This is what should be changed, and it would make the system easier to understand, if anything. Tying it to badges or re-introducing flag weight for close votes is more complexification than is necessary.

Close votes cast in /review are already limited by the number of review tasks you're allowed to perform, and they should be limited only by that. Close votes cast outside should have their own count, unaffected by /review. Avid reviewers -- who I would think are generally also active voters outside of review -- would no longer be hampered by their own avidity.

Indeed, why not go further? Votes of any kind in each queue should be limited only by the queue's daily task limit; they should not be deducted from one's pool of that kind of vote.

7
  • Something I've mulled over before, and this seemed like a good opportunity to present the idea. Happy to see what holes get poked in it! Fire away.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 21:06
  • I'd like this a lot! People have just seemed reluctant to special-case the queues in the past. Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 21:08
  • 9
    It would solve the "I can't approve this edit suggestion I stumbled on even though I could make the edit normally" problem too. Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 21:18
  • Ah, that might actually be one rough spot for this idea, @JeffreyBosboom; there's no limit on suggested edit votes other than the queue as far as I know. That might make implementation difficult.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 21:24
  • 10
    The Low Quality queue uses up nearly 20 of my 21 delete votes each day... This'd definitely help with that too...
    – Ben
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 4:28
  • 3
    @Ben And to make it worse, the queue wastes those delete votes: you could just as well have none of them.
    – user3717023
    Commented Mar 9, 2015 at 7:35
  • I actually agree with this.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 21:13
57

I've been thinking about this for a long time... Hitting the cap is frustrating.

That said, very few people hit the cap regularly - in the past 90 days, only 160 voters have hit the cap even once, and only one person on Stack Overflow has used 100% of their close votes every. single. day. Lookin' at you, bluet.

Accuracy is all over the map too. Some of our most prolific close voters routinely toss votes at questions that don't get closed in a timely manner - or at all. Lookin' at you, user with name made from arbitrary unicode characters presumably to discourage me from using it.

I calculated what we'd have to gain from varying the cap based on accuracy; giving you up to twice the current daily limit of votes if you were 100% accurate with your close-voting. Using fairly moderate criteria for accuracy, and assuming everyone who hit the cap during that time would've still hit the cap if it had been higher, we'd have seen a bit more than 11 thousand more close votes during that time period (a good chunk of those from bluet). That's not peanuts, but... At Stack Overflow's scale, it's not a whole lot either.

Ultimately, I'm kinda pessimistic about this. I don't want to be - it irritates me that this limit is fixed while flags scale with use - but I just don't see it doing much beyond contributing to faster burnout from the handful of people it would affect.

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    For myself, I know that I only hit the cap when I use /review -- and (paradoxically?) that's part of the reason I don't use /review much. Burning through the queues -- and thus my votes -- doesn't take all that much time compared to the rest of the normal browsing day. Sure, I could stop reviewing early, and save myself more votes depending on the time, but then I'm putting way too much strategic thought into, as Will likes to say, mopping up the sick on the floor. (And I'm not even sure there's a displayed counter of daily close votes.)
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 2:31
  • There is a counter. Ask me how I know... Also, I recommend not reviewing until you're about done for the day - I used to leave that sort of thing for about 23:00 UTC.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 2:49
  • Oh, yeah, that counter; duh. /me blushes I had the old "activity" popup menu stuck in my head, and I couldn't find the number in my profile.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 2:49
  • What about not counting close votes in the review queues towards the limit, as @JoshCaswell suggests? Also, I'd be curious to see the data on my "close vote accuracy." I'd guess I'm a little overzealous, but I hope I'm not wasting votes needlessly. Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 4:01
  • 1
    I really do agree about the review queues, though. I often don't use the review queues because they burn through votes. By the time it gets close to the end of the UTC day, I have so few votes left I sort of wonder what the point even is. I wonder if changing that would make more people use the queues...? Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 4:03
  • 5
    As a final note, I just want to point out the gamification aspect. Voting to close a question is satisfying! It's much more satisfying than simply downvoting it. It says "I've done what I need to do here," and then one can move on to a new question. As I mentioned in my question, I actually lose interest in looking at new questions after I run out of close votes because I feel unfulfilled. If this is such a rare occurrence, anyway, what's the harm in increasing the cap for the few that actually hit it? It can't really worsen things, right? Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 4:06
  • 8
    @Shog9, not reviewing until the end of the day, dose not work well for people in different time zones. I think part of the problem is that the RISK of running out of close vote is putting people off form reviewing a lot, even when most of them do not run out of close votes. Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 15:05
  • 1
    @IanRingrose, he didn't say end of the day. He said when you are done for the day. If your day finishes at 14:00 UTC, do your reviews then. Since you aren't around when it becomes a new day, you've still utilized your reviews at the end of your day.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 15:32
  • Dangerous proposal. Might lead to intentional group think. Undermines objectivity.
    – usr
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 17:06
  • 8
    I appreciate that you try to protect us from burning-out but isn't it also true that I'm responsible for letting that happen or not? Aren't the users hitting the cap all long-time voters and with that perfectly aware of the danger getting stuck in the quick-sand called review queue? I don't recall that Animuson did need to be hospitalized after doing 1000 reviews in the close vote queue on one day....
    – rene
    Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 12:34
  • 1
    Not so much that I want to protect you, @rene, as that I don't want to invest time into systems that are doomed to fail due to a lack of protection. Worth noting that animuson, while having quite a lot of reviews under his belt, is not even close to being a top reviewer; slow & steady wins the race...
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 13, 2015 at 5:02
  • 1
    Despite being the top CV reviewer there, I "seldom" use the CV queue on ELU because then I run out right away. Yes, I get a few more but I still run out of CVs there on most days I'm an active voter. I bet if you look at the site stats, you'll see this isn't rare. I try to treasure them up and look for canidates in the 10k queue as need be. Just too many need closing to squander my CVs, which means I don't use them enough as much as I should. But burn out? Maybe; think CORRECT GRAMMA.
    – tchrist
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 3:06
  • 4
    @Shog9 - What harm would increasing the close vote count on Programmers (or SO for that matter) cause? I understand the concerns about burning out voters, but the Progs community has been begging for this change for quite some time. Jon has indicated it's a trivial configuration change to make. And as we're in the (understandable) 6-8 week delivery window for any major update to the flagging system, I can't help but wonder what harm it would create. At a minimum, it would be one less set of (semi-vocal) whinging you'd have to hear.
    – user1345223
    Commented Nov 3, 2015 at 16:05
  • 1
    I've been patiently listening to people on progse whine since the site was launched, @glen. Sometimes they say useful things too, so it's always worth listening.
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 3, 2015 at 17:57
  • 2
    Can we revisit this? faster burnout from the handful of people it would affect What is it going to take for you to trust us? I stay on SO for hours a day, and run out of votes within a couple of hours. I have to favorite other "bad" posts I see so I can get to them in the next rotation. That's insane! Commented Jan 23, 2017 at 16:36
33

Here's my suggestion, though I'd love to see other suggestions, too. Let's give more close votes to people who both vote to close questions that get closed and also very consistently pass audits.

Robo-reviewers are real, and they are a problem. Audits seem to be a pretty good tool to stop them. Banning people from the review queue is a good, though temporary solution. Why not use audits as a metric to help decide which users are "worthy" of additional close-vote powers?

Personally, I can't imagine that giving people more close votes would be much of a problem outside of the review queues, as long as there is some reasonable upper limit. Still, even though the queues have a daily limit, too, note that there is currently no actual incentive to participate in the review queues (badges excluded).

Let's add gamification to the review queues. Vote to close questions that get closed and consistently pass audits? You get more close votes (obviously still capping out at some reasonable limit)! But fail audits? You actually get penalized if you fail too many. Permanently. But fear not, because passing more audits in the future can undo that penalty.

This would add an additional level of depth to the audit system. Since, currently, failing audits is relatively meaningless (the penalty is quite transient), plenty of robo-reviewers don't care about failing an audit here and there. This would make people more wary about failing audits, and therefore, they'd spend more time focusing on all questions they encounter in the queue.

Let's tap into the data we have to make users more powerful moderators and more effective ones at the same time!


As an update to clarify, I don't encourage scaling close votes based on audits alone. Rather, I'd view passing audits as a sort of "enabling" mechanic. The number of close votes you can get is entirely determined by your close voting history. However, passing audits allows those extra votes to be "unlocked", tapping into your pool of extra votes. Does that make sense?

I don't recommend scaling purely based on audits because audits are easy to pass as long as you're kinda-sorta paying attention. I'd just recommend using it as a metric to make sure people aren't entirely irresponsible with their votes.

Plus, more gamification is good, right?


As a final aside, wouldn't this just bring more people to meta complaining about failing audits? Yes. But people do that plenty already. If it becomes a problem, vote them down and close them as dupes. People are already allowed to post whatever they please on meta with little permanent penalty. This does not change that.

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    Keep in mind the audits are basically just there to make sure you're actually reading the question to some degree, not that you're a particularly good reviewer who is well versed in the site's standards. It's really more of a bot check than anything. People who consistently pass audits are actively trying to review posts; whether they're actually good at it is something that it's not really testing.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:12
  • @Servy That's mostly why I suggest scaling it based on both people who vote to close questions that get closed and audits. The former is to check that people aren't closing questions willy-nilly, and the latter is mostly just to penalize those who are truly irresponsible. Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:13
  • 4
    Using percentage of votes cast to questions closed is simply going to encourage more pile on voting. Given that, as you yourself have shown, there are lots of questions that merit closure that don't end up being closed due to a lack of voters means that it punishes people for casting the first close vote on a question by going out and actually finding a close-worthy question, and benefits people going around rubber stamping questions others have already voted to close. In short this is giving more votes to people that need less, and less to people that need more.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:23
  • 1
    @Servy Then only consider the votes that people cast when there aren't existing close votes on a question? That would actually encourage people to close questions that don't have close votes yet. Just don't count the "confirmation" votes toward increasing the voting power. Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:25
  • (That would also slow the growth of close voting power, which is probably a good thing.) Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 17:26
13

This is a perfect example of what is dragging the site down. And why this request is pretty realistic. Those that clean up are out numbered by those that trash the site by at least 2 orders of magnitude.

https://stackoverflow.com/users/4228174/reedwilliams19842004?tab=questions&sort=votes

enter image description here

2
  • 1
    That's a very nice example of cherry-picking! (and I'm glad I don't read the java tag at all!) If you look at other tags, such as javascript, r or jquery the situation is completely different. If I look at my main page I see 7/50 questions with negative score, mostly -1, one with -3.
    – nico
    Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 10:45
  • 2
    all but 2 of those questions are from Jan 20 or newer!
    – user177800
    Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 14:42
9

Can we have more than 60 (50) close votes please?

Or can at least some users get more based on some algorithm.

Some are worried that having more close votes would be damaging because closing questions is exhausting procedure and we would wore ourselves out.

I disagree. There is so much really bad questions that you can vote to close in matter of seconds and new ones will keep coming in.

I have used 60 votes today.

I just visited main page and I picked up following questions in less than 2 minutes, all of them were on first page, but I have no more votes left....

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36505733/how-can-i-make-an-android-floating-app-i-need-some-codes-pls

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36505721/squarespace-link-issue

Where to filter state?

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36505708/ipad-4-restore-stops-unexpectidly

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36505689/allowing-a-thread-to-shut-itself-down-gracefully

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36505674/scrollbar-issue-with-prism-wpf-application

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36505655/how-to-greyscale-a-picture-but-keep-color-in-part-of-it

4

Yes, I think we should have more. Stack Overflow gets too many questions per day at this point for us to be able to "afford" to keep low-quality questions around for long.

It seems like a good determiner would be people who have badges for review tasks. Gold badges for review tasks could (and definitely should) increase your close vote limit. At a minimum, a gold badge in the Close queue should automatically give you 10 more close votes per day, and gold badges in other queues could give you 5 extra votes per day.

Short of that, we could use reputation too - e.g. each 1000 rep beyond 3K gives you an additional 5 close votes (obviously, up to a maximum. E.g. 3k = 40 close votes, 4k = 45 close votes, 5k = 50 close votes, etc. (up to a maximum of, for example, 70 votes; I'm not sure what the actual maximum number should be).

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  • 2
    We don't need more votes (very few people use them all regularly.) What we need is for the votes that are cast to have a bigger effect, or, to get more people interested in closing questions that need to be closed. The dupe-hammer privilage helped the problem for example.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 22, 2017 at 15:07
  • 1
    @KevinB I agree with this. I know that there's been discussion of having certain people's votes have more an effect (e.g. if you hold a silver or gold badge in that tag), but I'm not sure if someone's written a Meta post "formally" proposing that. (If there is a Meta post suggesting that I'd definitely vote for it). I also think that they should reduce the number of close votes required for closure to 4 (or possibly even as low as 3). Commented May 22, 2017 at 15:26
-18

In the spirit of community moderation, perhaps we could be allowed to delegate our close votes to people we think do a good job of closing questions?

I am not going to cast any close votes myself until I can be sure my close reasons will not be misreported. That means I have a complete quota of votes going to waste each day.

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    "Misreported"? You mean closed for a reason other than the one you chose? That's pretty rare.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 2:49
  • 10
    This is super complicated Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 2:51
  • 5
    @Shog9 What matters is not that a question was closed for a reason other than the one I chose, but that SO falsely claims I voted to close for a reason I don't support. It may be rare, but it has happened to me. Not casting close votes is the only way I can be sure it won't happen again. Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 3:03
  • 9
    Strictly-speaking, any time you're the 5th voter choosing a reason you can be sure. Any time you're the 5th voter for a question and at least the 3rd choosing a given reason, you can be sure. Any time you're the 3rd choosing a given reason you can be reasonably sure (a moderator or gold-badge holder could still override you). Not really advocating that strategy, but if it matters...
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 3:07
  • Soooo.... how would you prevent the vote of your delegate from being misreported? Seriously, who cares whether the "final" closing reason is different that what you chose? A bad (for whatever reason) question is closed, end of the story.
    – nico
    Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 0:03
  • 4
    @nico I don't care at all whether the final close reason is the one I picked. I do care, a lot, about having my position on anything misrepresented. The problem could be solved completely by simply rewording the message to make it clear that the close reason is merely the majority reason. Presumably, the delegate doesn't mind having their close reasons misrepresented, because the delegate is still casting close votes. Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 1:48
  • You've got 10k rep - you can go to the 10k tools and only vote on questions which already have 4 close votes and meet your criteria for bring in the majority of close voters.
    – user289086
    Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 5:39
  • 4
    @PatriciaShanahan But then your solution won't solve the problem, it would just move it to another person... Anyways, I think people get upset too much for such minor things. If the question is bad for whatever reason it should be closed/deleted. Still, if you care so much about having your exact opinion voiced, then leave a comment saying "I voted to close this because xyz" and you're done. However, the point of casting a close vote should not be that of showing your opinion to the world, but rather to make the site better by getting rid of a bad question.
    – nico
    Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 10:41

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