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Note: This question was inspired by a hat but it's actually about your experience interacting with the site in pursuit of a hat.

During Winter Bash 2014, I spent a lot of time thinking about hats. In particular, I gave a lot of thought to the Red Baron. For reference, the requirement to earn this hat was:

answer +5 a -3 question that goes to +3

According to the Winter Bash wrap-up blog post, only 26 users earned the Red Baron across the entire network, making it quite a difficult reward to achieve. This had already become clear toward the end of the event, as the Leaderboard began to fill up with aspiring Cubbinses, and it got me thinking: as the most difficult hat to earn, does the Red Baron represent an exceptionally high standard for contributions to the site? So I wanted to ask directly of those users who actively tried to earn the Red Baron: Do you feel that your attempts to earn this hat made you a better user on Stack Overflow? Do you feel that you went above and beyond in order to curate an unappreciated or misunderstood question?

Or, do you feel like you polished a turd? If you looked for questions at -2 or -3 to answer, did you find them all to be uninteresting, unhelpful or otherwise not worth answering? If so, did you answer them anyway, and try your best to polish and promote them, to turn them around?

There's always talk about whether some rewards encourage bad behavior (e.g., The Sumo Judge hat is disruptive). Actively pursing the Naruto hat late in this season's Bash left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth; I didn't even take a shot at Selfie because I didn't feel I had anything important to share, though I've had success with self-answers a few times in the past.

If you didn't attempt to earn the Red Baron, or if you tried, but without any particular strategy, or if you just didn't give much thought to the requirements themselves, here's the question I chose as a likely candidate for earning the hat myself. the first revision was not very good but the author was responding to comments and trying to address them with edits; the basic level of OP investment required to turn the question around was there. Thanks to the particular experiences I've had, I felt able to see the diamond in the rough—the interesting, useful question hidden inside a somewhat broad and unclear problem statement. So here's what I did:

After all this, I put a 200-rep bounty on the question to try to give it a "second first impression" (and hopefully, to earn myself a hat). In the end, the question remains a little too broad and not quite clear enough to be top-notch, but I think I've taken it as far as I can as a third-party editor. I think it's unarguably a better question than it was but I still wonder: Is this type of aggressive revision something we should aspire to accomplish—like earning a rare Winter Bash hat? Or did I go too far?

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  • 8
    As an aside, it was my interpretation that the Red Baron hat was a bit of an experiment to see how a suggested change to the Reversal badge rules would go (since the method for getting it was awfully close to one of the suggestions). Commented Jan 5, 2015 at 22:52
  • @BradleyDotNET That hadn't occurred to me. I'm looking forward to this year's winter bash wrap-up blog post, where that sort of thing might be discussed. (For the lazy and/or forgetful: "Provided answer of +20 score to a question of -5 score.")
    – Air
    Commented Jan 5, 2015 at 22:55
  • 1
    For reference, here is the suggestion from Shog: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/277781/1783619 Commented Jan 5, 2015 at 22:58
  • Forget everything, it doesn't do it already :D
    – nicael
    Commented Jan 6, 2015 at 0:04
  • For the record, I was looking for the candidates the enter Winter Bash but never found a suitable one. It's the only hat I didn't get :( But other than that, I didn't really do anything special to try to get it.
    – tckmn
    Commented Jan 6, 2015 at 2:25
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    If I did that on every question I answered, I'd burn out in a week or two.
    – user1228
    Commented Jan 6, 2015 at 14:56
  • 5
    Related: So long Winter Bash 2014. I'll probably have more to write in the coming weeks as we take a look at how the hat was earned.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Jan 6, 2015 at 18:34
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    @BradleyDotNET: Dude, that's not Shog's suggestion.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 6, 2015 at 23:05
  • 2
    @BenVoigt Yes, it was your suggestion he was going off of, then tweaked a bit (which gets closer to what the hat was requiring). I mostly was indicating that I was linking to his post. Sorry for the mis-attribution. Commented Jan 6, 2015 at 23:07
  • 1
    @BradleyDotNET: Looks like the blog made exactly the same mistake :-p
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 2:25
  • @BenVoigt: I considered linking to your answer but Shog's fleshed out the idea in more detail. The credit is all yours.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 2:32
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    It seems those hats had a strange effect on people, either good or bad. I am glad I was too busy eating holiday foods to notice them :P
    – axwcode
    Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 10:20
  • 2
    It should be worth noting that there is at least one user who formed a voting ring to get the Red Baron. Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 14:42
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    What does "answer +5 a -3 question that goes to +3" mean in English? Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 18:19
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    @DavidConrad You must submit a new answer to a question when the question's net score is -3 (or lower), after which the question's net score must reach +3 (or higher) and your answer's net score must reach +5 (or higher).
    – Air
    Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 19:00

6 Answers 6

19

I did not get the hat, but I can add a bit of data to the discussion. Here are the questions that earned Stack Overflow users their Red Barons:


Now there are a few voting oddities that I noticed:

  • Since the answerer's votes count, it was possible to find a question at -2, downvote it, answer the question, and upvote it later. While this didn't happen on SO, I believe it was even possible to take advantage of the grace period to manipulate the votes; no question edit was required. Not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but it might be worth excluding the answer's votes from the calculation.

  • I didn't see this with these questions, but I do know that there was some chatroom activity around potential Red Baron questions encouraging upvotes. It's sort of a more purposeful version of the meta effect. We see this occasionally with other badges ("Oh, I'm one vote away from a Great Answer: ") and it's not a huge deal. But it would be easy to imagine a room coordinating to downvote and then upvote a question for the sake of badges. That would be pretty annoying to the asker who gets jerked around for no real benefit to them.

Overall, however, I think this experiment went well. Certainly Stack Overflow got 8 fine answers that would not likely exist otherwise. I'm going to look through the Red Baron hats on other sites and, if I don't see any major problems, suggest we use this criteria for a gold badge. (Not yet sure if replacing Reversal is the right plan, however.)

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    Appreciate the follow up; here's a green check mark for tasty, tasty data.
    – Air
    Commented Jan 17, 2015 at 4:35
73

As one of the lucky few who earned a Red Baron hat, I can say that yes, I think the hat did motivate me to become a better Stack Overflow user. At first, I didn't use any particular strategy to try to earn the hat, nor did I expect I would be able to achieve it having never gotten +7 for any of my previous answers, for questions of any quality. However, with the Red Baron hat suggesting it was possible a good question could fall through the cracks, I decided I would carefully consider the potential of all questions I saw being down-voted, before following suit.

When I stumbled upon the question I ended up being awarded the hat for answering, it had already received many down-votes. I clicked on it, expecting to find a poorly worded question that was nothing more than an inquiry on a typo in someone else's code. I thought I would simply vote to close it like everyone else, probably down-vote as well, then leave.

What I found however, was an interesting and completely valid question that talked about a new feature I was not previously aware of. Some research and a little experimentation later, I determined that the question was completely valid, and something I'm sure that I and many others would be curious of in the coming months.

The question could use some TLC for sure, so in addition to answering the question, I also edited the question to show exactly what the person was seeing and up-voted the question to counter one of the many down-votes it received.

Had I not stopped to carefully consider the question, I too may have down-voted and/or voted to close. This answer has since become my highest-voted answer on Stack Overflow. If that is any indication of being a better Stack Overflow user, then I definitely think the Red Baron hat helped me to get there.

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    That question is a brilliant example of something that's perfectly understandable if read closely (yes, even the initial revision), but was downvoted to hell by, I guess, people rolling their eyes at the bad grammar and spelling (presumably because OP is not a native/fluent English speaker). Commented Jan 6, 2015 at 22:01
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    @Two-BitAlchemist I'm not sure it's safe to assume that; a lot of people know English just fine, but prefer to write in "txt-spk" because they don't care enough to put in the effort. Those not fluent in the language generally note that in their question; I think in this case it was just a general misunderstanding of Stack Exchange quality standards (as is common with new users) and the kind of questions that are allowed here. Subsequent edits made the question acceptable and, while I don't doubt the role of Alexander's answer in improving it, the question wasn't the best to start out with.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Jan 6, 2015 at 23:48
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    I don't really get how people could downvote that question. Even before being edited anyone who actually knows the answer surely could understand it. I'd go as far as saying, except for adding a screenshot, the other edits are bad. But then that's the point -> no one who knew the answer actually had the opportunity of seeing it. (It was downvoted because the answer requires some very obscure CSS knowledge. People that know CSS saw it, did not understand it, and felt it must be wrong). Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 10:48
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    @Sergiu "anyone who actually knows the answer surely could understand it" - that has nothing to do with being a good question.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 11:19
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    Sooo, what? A good question is one that anyone with google search skills can answer by copy-pasting the title? As far as I can tell no rule has been broken with the original question. The answer was not trivial either. Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 13:27
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    @SergiuParaschiv No, that's a bad question.
    – GolezTrol
    Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 14:42
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    Exactly my point. Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 14:45
  • 3
    @Sergiu all I'm reacting to is your statement "anyone who actually knows the answer surely could understand it". If you have to know the answer to understand a question, which is what you're saying, it's most likely not a good question. A good question poses the problem in such a way that someone without knowing the exact answer from the top of their head, but who has at least some experience in the subject or knows how to Google, can do the research necessary to answer it. The first revision of that question was crap.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 16:58
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    I agree that the first revision was crap. The problem statement was not good. After revision, the problem statement is good. This is separable from whether the underlying question is good.
    – Air
    Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 18:05
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    @AstroCB 'Has anyone idea what is "i" in atribute selector?' -- Why would someone lazily using 'txt-speak' bother to quote a letter mention or write out anyone (as opposed to 'ne1' or the like)? "Has anyone idea" is pretty clearly the construction of a non-native speaker. It's perfectly understandable, but idiomatically stands out as something no native speaker would likely ever say. Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 2:55
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    @Two-BitAlchemist That's certainly possible; my comment was directed in a general sense, as I see this excuse used in a lot of cases where it's not warranted.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 2:59
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    @CodeCaster: I did not say you have to know the answer. I did not know the answer but was able to come up with a google query that does not contain "case" or "insensitive" and took me to this: stackoverflow.com/questions/5671238/… Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 8:19
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    @CodeCaster: But I honestly cannot see anything wrong with the first version of the question. Most people mistakenly thought it was gibberish because they did not take the time to understand it. That's plain wrong, alongside most "gramer fixes". Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 8:55
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    Very nice job, and just FYI: You were the very first user to earn this hat anywhere.
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 14:55
  • @AstroCB I know what you mean and in the general sense I agree with you. :) Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 20:21
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No hats motivated me to do anything, because I opted out of hats. Several times, because they seem to need to be shucked once per site. Hats are intended to be fun and avoid undesirable incentives; what's the point of closely tuning inventives for a two-week goof?

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    What's the point of even having a two week goof? Why not closely turn incentives so you can collect data on usage? Rewarding particular behaviors is fundamental to how StackExchange works. Why pass up the opportunity to experiment with it?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 6, 2015 at 2:58
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    Maybe I spent too much time talking about the hat. The carrot itself is not important; the question is, what does the carrot lead to and why?
    – Air
    Commented Jan 6, 2015 at 5:20
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    @AirThomas it leads to a pointless waste of time... and Unicorns
    – r3wt
    Commented Jan 6, 2015 at 9:29
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    The blog mentioned that 2 of the hats were experiments for possible future badges. One was a success and probably will become a badge, the other was not.
    – Izkata
    Commented Jan 7, 2015 at 23:07
  • I like unicorns!
    – QHarr
    Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 10:27
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No.

At first I thought hats were fun, but it became too confusing about what was acceptable fun and what was not allowed even though it was fun, and some of the hats clearly invoked bad behaviour - either in response to them, or in response to the actions they encouraged or advertised, so I opted out

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Caveat: my hat wasn't on SO. But my answer really applies to most sites I am active on, SO included.

Im my case, earning Red Baron did NOT in any way change how I operate. I found a question that my SME allowed writing up a decent answer for (it wasn't a perfect answer, but the best one possible given known information - a frequent occurrence on a "soft" site like SFF); and did a minor edit, which combined with a prior edit by someone else improved the question a bit [1].

However, earning it reinforced my depressing impression (expressed by the fact that I was 100% sure I would easily find a question to earn that hat on) that certain SE sites are overran by negatively-minded people who don't bother thinking before criticizing a question as "unanswerable"/"bad" simply because those people can't imagine an answer; or down-vote perfectly good questions over minor cosmetic issues. I'm happy to get the hat; yet extremely sad that I have been proven right by it.


Do you feel that your attempts to earn this hat made you a better user on Stack Overflow?

No. I earned the hat on SFF, but I have done similar things before, as a matter of my normal modus operandi, on both SO and other sites.

Do you feel that you went above and beyond in order to curate an unappreciated or misunderstood question?

No. I figured out 2 minor cosmetic issues with the question, one of which was already fixed by an edit prior to my arrival. My edits were truly un-epic.

Or, do you feel like you polished a turd?

No. It was a pretty good question in its core, so not a turd. It required minor polishing.

If you looked for questions at -2 or -3 to answer, did you find them all to be uninteresting, unhelpful or otherwise not worth answering?

Some were rubbish and unanswerabe. I was pretty sure I'd find at least one that was not, based on past experience, and was correct in my expectation.

If so, did you answer them anyway, and try your best to polish and promote them, to turn them around?

I did not answer the rubbish ones. I downvoted them even further; and almost 100% of them were either already closed, or I VTCed them. We have very rare case on SFF of questions that are at -3 or below and NOT VTC-worthy.


P.S. I would like to add my "metoo" to the chorus of people noting that Naruto and Pizza hats were awful ideas that at best promoted bad behavior.

  • I got Naruto basically by accident (found an obscure question from a new user that was mis-tagged with an obscure tag I was interested in; and thus not getting any attention); and did not bother editing it to improve the tags to avoid up-votes after answering.

  • I posted a question that I knew was going to generate controversy to get a Pizza hat (and didn't even get it, for my troubles!). It was a not a bad question, just too general and underspecified specifically to attract a bit more answers than it otherwise would have. I felt so annoyed I decided to not try again.


[1] In this case, the question was percieved poorly to the tune of -3 simply because:

1. The user asked a movie-specific question - a very valid one - for something that didn't happen in a book, but didn't add "movie" tag to it.

2. the user didn't remember a minor detail from the movie (character name) and didn't bother doing detailed research on what the name was, considering the question had nothing to do with said character. As I noted in a comment, I - an acknowledged SME on the subject - didn't remember the character name off the bat either

3. It was a plot hole question with no clear explanation

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While I always enjoy the annual hat dash, and managed to get quite a few across many sites (think I came in 9th overall, and 1st on Information Security) this was one of 3 hats that I felt didn't really meet the spirit of 'demonstrating good behaviours' (the other two being Pizza and Naruto)

So while most of my hats were achieved through generally doing what I do every day: posting, editing and moderating, the Red Baron wasn't. It required finding a candidate question that in reality was not worth that 5 minutes effort, and a bit of rounding up some votes.

So this wouldn't be one I'd like to see next year.

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  • In your opinion, was the CSS question used in the wrap-up blog post as an example of a Red Baron award not worth the effort, given the end result?
    – Air
    Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 14:56
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    I hadn't read through it (CSS is not in my skillset at all) but it does seem like a good question and good answer. So my experience may not have been the same as everyone's.
    – Rory Alsop
    Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 15:02
  • What was wrong with Naruto? We have two normal badges with similar criteria. Pizza was a bit ridiculous. Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 20:56
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    Naruto criteria aren't that likely to happen on security, my main site
    – Rory Alsop
    Commented Jan 8, 2015 at 22:28

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