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Disclaimer: I'm a new user to SO in terms of posting questions and comments, and more generally being interested in the site beyond it being the first hit in Google for my programming question. Sorry in advance if I'm just a noob who doesn't "get it".

Reading comments on SO by high-rep users and many of the discussions here on MSO, there seems to be a consensus that SO is taking a turn for the worst because of the flood of poor quality questions. But I have a hard time of seeing why this is implicitly bad and am interested in finding out exactly why.

One reason I've seen stated is that it decreases the signal to noise ratio. How is that? In my experience, Google has no problem cutting through the cruft and usually delivers me the question and answers I'm looking for, straight at the top. Are there hundreds of duplicates of that question? Probably. Does it affect my user experience in finding what I want? No, never (at least for me).

Are high quality questions being missed because of the others? Doesn't look like it. Every single question, no matter how off-topic/poorly-spelled/duplicate-obvious is immediately viewed/commented/voted-upon/answered by legions of rep-hungry users. It's hard to imagine that anything slips through the cracks.

Is it storage space on the backing servers? Nostalgia of an era before the Internet discovered SO?

Again, I'm just trying to figure out what seems implicitly obvious to a lot of people.

Without an understanding of why concretely the flood of bad questions is bad, I can't help but feel that there's nothing wrong with people answering those bad questions (qualified as whores in a recent topic) - and no good reason why I shouldn't do it myself. At least they are (possibly) helping someone. The poor question will come and go and I fail to see the negative consequence.

I would also like to add that some of these bad questions aren't just students looking for someone else to do their homework. Many of these people are just from different professional fields not related to computers who are discovering that some basic programming can actually help them in a meaningful way. Think of a small time teacher in a developing country who found out that a basic database program could make his life a lot easier. He will post a very basic SQL question that checks every mark on the list of "how not to post questions". I hate to think that changes to SO will automatically prevent him from getting an answer in the future.

Edit

I ran some queries in SEDE and thought I would put the results here. They basically illustrate what people have answered, that good questions are getting lost in the ocean of crap (sounds obvious but at least one indicator here is evolving positively).

        # of HQ questions   % of HQ questions    Avg accepted response time
                                   unanswered     (in days) to HQ questions
2010                88272                 17%                          23.0
2011                97908                 18%                          19.4
2012                72864                 21%                          15.3
2013                39485                 27%                           9.4

(A HQ question is a question with a score over 5.)

If I didn't screw up my SQL (those response times seem very high), although good questions are answered much quicker than before, a smaller proportion of them are answered at all. The increase in unanswered HQ questions is very sharp in 2013. Also, there is a very strong drop in high rated questions altogether.

Edit 2

As mike z pointed out, the previous results for average accepted answer time are skewed tending to give longer response times to older questions. I ran instead the proportion of HQ questions seeing an accepted answered in under a month and indeed they reveal a decrease as well:

2010   75%
2011   73%
2012   69%
2013   64%
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    the teacher who needs help with SQL SELECT or WHERE should not be using SO as his/her first resort (noise), but instead find a decent SQL reference. Later when he/she needs help with a complex UNION query it may be a different matter (signal). IMO too much of the noise comes from users completely unable to grasp concepts: they reject a Duplicate answer as applicable because the dupe answer uses a ListBox and they are using a ComboBox (or similar distinction without a difference). They are looking for personalized debugging etc for their solution which can be pasted (worse than noise) Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:04
  • 23
    @Plutonix I get it, but my question is "where is the harm"? What used to be easy and no longer is? What could you find before that you no longer can?
    – schmop
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:09
  • 40
    conversely, whats the value in the 6,000th question about a NullReferenceException? Is of special value because it involves an X and not a Y as in the definitive answer? Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:16
  • 17
    @Plutonix whats the value in the 6,000th question about a NullReferenceException? The 6000th asker got an answer. Could he have got it otherwise without a duplicate? Yes. Does that mean he doesn't deserve it? I don't see why if there is no real negative impact.
    – schmop
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:25
  • 19
    @schmop, The underlying demographic profile of the SO visitor has changed, and what you're seeing is a sign of that. I don't think it will EVER revert back to 2008/2009; and trying to beat up 2.7 million people to ask intelligent questions evokes images of Canute lashing at the waves.
    – Gayot Fow
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:50
  • 66
    in reality Google reports 42k hits for NullReferenceException; and another 10k for the "object not set..." varietal. So, the "harm" comes from giving them a fish (and rewarding the lack of effort) and increasing the noise versus teaching them how to fish (google). Commented May 11, 2014 at 15:02
  • 4
    I think your query results are potentially misleading: you could get those results even if the four years are all exactly the same. The seeming decrease in accepted answers to HQ questions may just mean that an old HQ question can sit for a long time and then eventually have an answer accepted, so the older the question, the more likely it's had an answer accepted by now. This would also explain the seeming decrease in average time-to-accepted-answer: if a small proportion of accepted answers are posted after a very long time, they can skew the "average" misleadingly upward.
    – ruakh
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 23:06
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    Addendum: I realized I could test my supposition somewhat by modifying your query, restricting it to only accepted answers that were posted within six months. With that restriction, we can see that time-to-accepted-answer has actually been getting worse over time: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/revision/193409/250217/… (3.9 in 2010; 4.7 in 2011; 5.8 in 2012; at least 6.4 in 2013).
    – ruakh
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 23:29
  • 4
    The average accepted answer response time is skewed by a small number of questions that have extremely long answer times. For example, the median accepted answer response time for HQ questions in 2013 is 56 minutes, in 2010 it was 18 minutes. This metric is somewhat flawed though. It completely ignores unanswered HQ questions. Commented May 11, 2014 at 23:38
  • 9
    Why are so many people downvoting this question? I'd say it's pretty good quality: OP done some research, thought about a problem and came to a conclusion. He now asks if his conclusion is correct. Sounds like perfect example of a good SO question.
    – Dunno
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 7:56
  • 6
    @Dunno Because they don't agree with the content. Which apparently is a reason to downvote now-a-days. Downvoting is so much easier than leaving a comment or answer explaining why a person does not agree with the OP. Hence the downvotes.
    – timo
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 8:13
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    @user3008011 on meta questions the voting is different it is whether you agree or not unlike the main sites
    – mmmmmm
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 8:15
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    @Dunno and user3008011 - Downvoting on meta is meant to signal disagreement. And user3008011, there are plenty of comments and answers explaining why one should not agree with OP here, so your comment is really misplaced.
    – l4mpi
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 8:17
  • 8
    "Every single question, no matter how off-topic/poorly-spelled/duplicate-obvious is immediately viewed/commented/voted-upon/answered by legions of rep-hungry users. It's hard to imagine that anything slips through the cracks." Actually, a lot slips through the cracks. In fact, there are dozens of questions asked every hour that get "no votes, no answers, no comments, and low views for a week." Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:10
  • 13
    Note that calling questions with a score > 5 "HQ" is dangerous. The voting has also deteriorated. Someone who doesn't ask about their NullPointer almost gets 1-3 upvotes for free from old users, and overly complicated (HQ?) questions are left unseen, possibly partly because of noise.
    – keyser
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 20:02

18 Answers 18

243

It is about noise to signal ratio.

Where bad questions == noise and good questions == signal.

If the signal is drowned out by noise, we are all worse off (people who come to read interesting questions go. People interested in answering questions go. The only people remaining - those who ask bad questions).

I could write much more, but I think that the point stands on its own.

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    I mention it in my question and fail to see it as more than rhetoric. No one actually browses the list of questions to find good ones, I think.
    – schmop
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:02
  • 98
    @schmop: generally, people who want to find questions to answer will go through posts with tags that they are interested in to see whether they are answerable. If all of the questions they find are ones that they are not willing to answer (for some, low-quality questions are a deterrent), they then might give up on trying to answer. I don't know any other way to find posts which haven't been answered yet that can be answered -- if you do, please enlighten me! :) Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:16
  • 1
    @Qantas94Heavy Yes, I see how that can have an actual negative impact. But you will admit it is hard to observe in practice. Everywhere I look, good questions still get good answers.
    – schmop
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:22
  • 44
    @schmop - and if we don't stop the tide of bad questions, people looking for good ones, will not be finding them, not easily.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:37
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    You mean looking for good ones to answer I imagine. Yeah I get it. Check.
    – schmop
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 15:06
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    @schmop For what it is worth, I do look for what I think are good questions. On my homepage (filtered by my favourite tags) and specifically for a few tags I like to follow. If there are no good questions visible without having to scroll, I usually leave (often by voting to close a few questions in the close review queue, with the extra "motivation" gained from a wasted visit to the home page).
    – Monolo
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 15:26
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    @Oded I tried to measure what you are describing and put it in the question. The numbers confirm what you are saying.
    – schmop
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 19:40
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    @schmop I think the problem is, that because you do not perceive a problem, it does not mean it doesn't exist. Thus I arguments like "I see no harm." or "Everywhere I look, good questions still get good answers." have a little value IMO. Trust me, when it will become visible, it will be too late. And it already starts to be. Most reputable people are getting tired and worn out. They are the experts that make most value of this site. Unless SO wants to take a change into a noob-friendly help-desk, instead of expert-friendly knowledge sharing resource, it must meet and maintain their standards.
    – luk32
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 22:42
  • 30
    Another worn-out user chiming in. These days it may easily take a full hour of periodically refreshing the question queue to find a mildly interesting one. Since two weeks ago I have completely stopped trying to answer because the effort of finding a question is not worth it anymore. Commented May 12, 2014 at 8:27
  • 18
    I jumped from the C# tag out to the C++ tag when I was learning C++. Soon I ignored the C++ tag and started looking only at the C++11 tag when C++11 was coming out. Boy, was that awesome. Most people interested in C++11 were the experts and the SNR was definitely in the 80% range. That was some three years ago. In between I gave the Unicode tag a go. I found it was impossible to ever not find a "python - 'ascii' codec can't decode byte" question in the first page so I left that tag as well. Now I'm this close to leaving the C++11 tag as well as the SNR seems to be about in the 20% range. Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:00
  • 5
    Perhaps more in-depth search tools are in order so that experts have something better to use rather than wade through the myriad of questions manually? There has to be some value in being able to filter out questions by user reputation, votes, and other metrics. I'm actually fairly surprised that the SE search is so simplistic.
    – Cypher
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 18:31
  • 15
    @SebastianLange I do not want to help if helping consists of explaining why "'ascii' codec can't decode byte" three times a day. I do not want to help if helping consists of providing yet another link to another question that explains why "'ascii' codec can't decode byte" three times a day. Doing that makes me feel like I'm doing a machine's job, and as a programmer I abhor that. Commented May 14, 2014 at 21:19
  • 4
    And maybe I provide high quality answers to high quality questions driven by a desire for fame. So what? In that case the end result is: 1) fame for me; 2) a high quality answer for everyone else. Answering low-quality questions gives us a much different end result. Commented May 14, 2014 at 21:21
  • 6
    @SebastianLange: Fame or not, a good, thought-out question is just more interesting, more attractive than a bad, lazy one, plain and simple.
    – Andriy M
    Commented May 15, 2014 at 11:59
  • 1
    @MAGSHARE - I can't tell if you will write a new answer (even on an ancient question) even if you got an answer there? Or your answer is not as good as an existing one?
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented May 25, 2014 at 20:33
137

It's not so much that high quality questions are being missed, it's the sheer amount of chaff you have to sift through to get to them.

Every single question, no matter how off-topic/poorly-spelled/duplicate-obvious is immediately viewed/commented/voted-upon/answered by legions of rep-hungry users.

I argue that is not a good thing. If you have low rep users asking poorly formatted questions that are being answered by other low-rep users giving bad advice, what you have is a mosh pit, not a programming resource.

The whole point of Stack Overflow is to collect useful programming information. The way you do that is by attracting experts. The way you attract experts is by asking interesting questions and reducing the noise as much as possible so that you don't waste their valuable free time.

Further Reading
How to ask questions the smart way

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    The whole point of Stack Overflow is to collect useful programming information Is there any concrete metric showing that this criteria is no longer being met? For me, the usefulness of SO is constantly growing and I do not see a decline. Despite the poor questions.
    – schmop
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:07
  • 19
    How would you measure that exactly, other than "relative degree of suckiness?" Why should I wade around in a mosh pit to find a quarter, when I can look in a drawer instead?
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:08
  • 7
    Could you explain how "suckiness" is increasing? What is the actual impact of bad questions, concretely? In what usage scenario is the experience worse than before?
    – schmop
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:16
  • 10
    Read this: catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html. Then, check out mathoverflow.net or cstheory.stackexchange.com, where the level of noise is almost zero.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 14:19
  • @RobertHarvey: +1; but it's really a volume issue right? It's like trying to determine why there are more successful viruses on Windows vs. Mac. Well, almost all hackers are writing for Windows because they own almost all of the market share. Likewise, programming (C# especially) is a high volume, high interest, topic. I do agree with you 100%, but I have a different spin on it as well in an answer I've posted. Commented May 12, 2014 at 18:53
  • So spawn another site for less professional users. Done.
    – user4624979
    Commented Aug 18, 2015 at 13:58
  • 2
    @nocomprende: The experts would never go there. Without experts, there is no site.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 18, 2015 at 14:35
  • I see plenty of non-experts here. There is a site. If all the experts migrated away, would the site vanish? How many denominations of Protestantism are there in your phone book? I counted 47 once.
    – user4624979
    Commented Aug 18, 2015 at 14:37
  • @nocomprende: We already conducted that experiment. Sadly, it didn't work out.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 18, 2015 at 14:42
76

Here's something else to consider (you can kinda get this off of SEDE, but since it doesn't include deleted stuff the trend is skewed):

PHP questions by month

That's just the number of PHP questions asked each month on Stack Overflow, with April as the last month. Think about that a little bit...

  • If I'm a dedicated PHP answerer, and I check https://stackoverflow.com/tags/php once every hour for 8 hours a day and at least scan every question on the page (set to 50 questions per page) when I do... Then I'm viewing something like 12K questions a month.

  • I'm only viewing half of all the questions asked, and that 50% isn't a representative sample, because question volume - and quality - varies throughout the day.

  • And 90% of everything is crap.

...then you can probably start to see how I might have become convinced that there are no good questions asked anymore. If I don't have time to scan 400 questions every day, there's even less chance I'm seeing the good ones before they get buried.

And this is why, as important as moderation is, it's absolutely worthless for solving the "too many bad questions" problem: there are simply too many questions!

The trick here is gonna have to be either magic filtering or some sort of system that silently deemphasizes questions that don't deserve much attention (imagine what would happen if a couple of downvotes dropped a question off of the newest questions page after a few minutes?)

Because otherwise, no matter how much we do to clean up, there's still going to be a better chance of someone logging on and seeing crap than of seeing anything else.

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    I like the idea of having a checkmark to eliminate the low-quality questions. I'd like it even better if I could set the quality-score threshold in my profile. I also like the idea of two downvotes dropping the question off the front page or my selected tag page.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 0:19
  • 1
    I've suggested visual hinting to low-quality questions, giving advanced warning to the would-be answerer or closer. It works by determining a question's likeness to previously closed/deleted questions.
    – dilbert
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 1:02
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    @dilbert I find a -2 on the question to be clue enough. That said, when people up vote things that are... well, crap and don't down vote crap, that metric becomes less useful.
    – user289086
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 2:31
  • @MichaelT, of course a poor score can give forewarning as well but there will always be a first wave of answerers who have to read the rubbish question but that, as you say, assumes they will downvote a rubbish question.
    – dilbert
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 3:02
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    @RobertHarvey If there existed a threshold to only see high quality questions, then how are the new good ones going to get there in the first place? Since most (if not all) high-rep experts will use that feature, only low-rep users will vote on new questions, and I'm not sure if you want to trust their judgement on what makes a good question. Or worse, genuinely good questions voted down because the non-experts can't understand it and it looks off-topic/too broad/etc.
    – JW Lim
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 7:42
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    well, I have seen really interesting and good questions downvoted before.. your proposal is not a generic solution as it would cause harm to those good but downvoted (by noobs) questions
    – user2140173
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 10:43
  • 6
    Downvotes are a pretty poor tool for this for a number of reasons, @mehow. My point is more that right now we're not doing anything - so reasonable questions don't even need to be downvoted to be ignored... They just need to be unlucky.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:06
  • 2
    I also think downvotes aren't the answer, i think the answer is to close questions more efficiently, especially duplicates. i think thats where automation should come in, perhaps some kind of close probability metascore which reduces the number of close votes required or something.
    – undefined
    Commented May 14, 2014 at 11:20
71

One of the many ideas behind Stack Overflow is to provide quality content in a push to make the internet better.

Bad questions are normally considered low-quality content, and hence each bad question that is posted works against this ambitious goal.

Now, if the purpose of SO was to organise a small army of highly skilled software professionals to mentor and tutor a large army of low-skilled developers, then your observations would be very valid, but so far that is not in the (largely unwritten) charter of SO.

Feel free to suggest a modification to the charter, though.

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  • 5
    That sums up well what I wasn't understanding.
    – schmop
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 19:42
  • 1
    The purpose of the site isn't actually unwritten. The site founders have actually written extensively about what the site's charter should be. Here's a place to start.
    – Servy
    Commented May 23, 2014 at 14:19
  • @Servy True, but you have to go look for it strange places, such as the one you list there. Interestingly, if it is written in clear language on the site itself (not counting meta posts), then I have not found it. The about page, which is one place where I would expect to find a reference to it, just tells how it works, not why, or what the purpose of the whole thing is.
    – Monolo
    Commented May 23, 2014 at 14:53
  • @Monolo You'll find discussions of it all over meta. It's not in the help center because at the end of the day new users don't need to care about why the site was created, they only need to care about how to use it. Discussions about the site's purpose, mission, goals, etc. are only really something to discuss when determining how to adjust site policy, here on meta. Once the specific policies are agreed on, the mission statement that exists to create them doesn't need to be conveyed to ever user.
    – Servy
    Commented May 23, 2014 at 14:57
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    @Servy No, we don't need each and every user of SO to know its purpose or mission, but we do need it spelled out in a single, authoritative and easy to understand document that can be referred whenever someone is in doubt. It should also be updated every now and then - many enterprises revise their purpose as they get wiser, and there is no shame in that.
    – Monolo
    Commented May 23, 2014 at 16:25
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    An experienced person may consider an inexperienced persons question as "Bad". I suspect the heavy-handed policies on this site are going to quell the good and the bad signals. It's getting harder to find answers. I've been programming for 22 years. The elitist attitude on this site is driving me away.
    – Mark Glass
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 19:19
  • So why do so many inexperienced people flock here? What is the draw? We must be doing something right, er, wrong...
    – user4624979
    Commented Aug 18, 2015 at 14:01
66

Google has no problem cutting through the cruft and usually delivers me the question and answers I'm looking for, straight at the top.

Just get more experience.
Although at the current level you see nothing wrong, but with getting more experience you will start noticing fallacies in the answers you find.

In fact, most found-by-google answers are outdated crap from '09, considered proper just due to their age. And here comes one of Stack Overflow's essential flaws - instead of being aimed at knowledge reuse and answers refactoring (for the purpose of improving quality) this site encouraging fast on-sight short answers. Leaving old answers outdated and useless.

And with even more experience you will eventually face the problem for which there is no solution posted in SO yet. And here comes your second statement:

Are high quality questions being missed because of the others? Doesn't look like it. Every single question, no matter how off-topic/poorly-spelled/duplicate-obvious is immediately viewed/commented/voted-upon/answered by legions of rep-hungry users. It's hard to imagine that anything slips through the cracks.

This statement lacks logic.
"legions of rep-hungry users" doesn't mean "answered".
Quite contrary - these legions are trained on the easy prey, and don't bother with complex questions. I myself often see complex questions without single answer. And only by means of manually attaching a bounty one can get some attention to them. Which is a shame for the system that was designed to work automatically

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    I would say this answer is much better off without the first three words, but then it wouldn't really be YCS answering would it...
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 7:49
  • Ok, I hope it bears less negative connotations now. Commented May 12, 2014 at 7:51
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    That sounds much better actually, kudos :) For all the flak you get around here on meta, let's be honest - there is truth in what you've been pointing out.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 7:52
  • I agree with these points and think it shows a needed change in the rep situation -- edits and improvement should give more rep than quick short answers... how do we make this happen?
    – Hogan
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:03
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One aspect of the answer is that you're looking solely from the perspective of the person wanting help and disregarding the people who are actually working to provide that help here. I'm happy to share my knowledge with someone who's making a geniune effort to solve a problem and got stuck somewhere, but the leeches with poor questions are wasting my time and attention and giving nothing back. If you want to waste my time with lazy questions, I'm available for consulting; if you want free help, make an effort yourself.

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    Frankly, as someone who pretty much never asks questions, I could not disagree more. The primary people who waste my time here are those casting illegitimate close votes. The only real solution to that is going to be one where people simply stop seeing questions they aren't interest in helping with - without trying to ban others who do find them interesting, from answering. Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:11
  • 1
    Not sure I see it the same way... if I start reading a low-quality question and it looks like a waste of my time, I quit reading it. It's not like there's someone in my office asking me a dumb question and I have to consider whether it's rude to say "go away"; that's not a problem on the Internet. I think that's what the OP was getting at--if it's not about storage space or search engine results, what's the real issue? And if I and somebody else have differing judgments about what effort someone may have made, do I really need to do anything about it?
    – ajb
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:26
  • @ChrisStratton I could not agree more with your comment.
    – DeVadder
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:28
  • 1
    @ajb The problem is the time and attention required to start reading that question and discard it in the first place. There's plenty else I could be doing, but I just spend 15-30 seconds on a question that the poster reasonably should have known not to ask. Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:31
  • @ChrisStratton I rarely ask questions myself and have only ever received a useful answer for one single question. I browse based on tags and don't vote to close without (perceived) justification, but simply filtering out the firehose of questions whose posters didn't read the FAQ or Google the error message (if they post the error message) takes a lot of attention, times all of the answerers. Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:34
  • @chrylis - part of the key is to not even click on a question unless you think it might be interesting. In very small tags, every question might be worth a read. In larger ones, only a few are. Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:38
  • @ChrisStratton, I could not agree less with your comment, and I've never asked a question. I bet less than 5% of questions that don't meet the criteria of a good on-topic question ever actually get closed.
    – OGHaza
    Commented May 15, 2014 at 13:35
  • 2
    Could be... But a lot of fully on-topic questions get closed, and the process of getting them re-opened wastes huge amounts of time. In contrast, one which truly is off topic wastes no more time to ignore than one which is on-topic but uninteresting. It comes back to the same thing - learn to mostly ignore, answer occasionally, and close rarely. Commented May 15, 2014 at 14:09
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Are there hundreds of duplicates of that question? Probably. Does it affect my user experience in finding what I want? No, never (at least for me).

Actually, it does. The number of superlative experts isn't scaling as fast as the total number of users. While there may be more than enough users to answer the duplicates, a lot of the answers they give are WRONG.

The guru-level experts don't have time to review all the duplicate answers. (Besides which, they will vote-to-close-as-duplicate, so the answer doesn't necessarily accrue the comments correcting it)

People need to learn to search and discern good, correct, well-explained and properly defended answers. Or else they will become the next generation spreading the incorrect ideas. (And filing compiler bugs that get closed as WONTFIX because the new optimization didn't break the code, the code already was wrong).

13

As a fairly junior member I've been grappling with this issue a lot, but my perspective is mixed since I can remember a time when I knew very little about programming or StackOverflow.

There's an obvious problem with no-to-low rep users asking bad questions: it leads to intense duplication of content and thus noise in the system. Noise is problematic because it grinds against two core concepts that make S.O. valuable:

  1. creating canonical reference
  2. manageable curation and maintenance by knowledgable moderators

Reducing duplicates and expecting questions to be discrete and specific is what makes Googling for answers such a treat. Rewarding low effort, high volume Q+A creates a feedback loop that overwhelms carefully constructed questions and answers with mindless "why doesn't this work" copy and paste jobs.

Poorly constructed questions validated by those eager to answer anything creates a precedent for low quality questions, creating a gross incentive to duplicate content like crazy. This problem isn't just the fault of the rep-whores though. As the programming community grows this situation will only intensify. Perhaps it's an opportunity for change? Or at least a sign of things to come.

There is a third thing S.O. is great at that is rarely acknowledged — the implicit coaching that takes place. Not simply directly via "this canonical question receives this canonical answer", but the discussion, comments, the variety of answers available. I've learned a lot on S.O. by taking a risk, formalizing a question, and then receiving an unexpected, enlightening response, or often, a somewhat clunky but accidentally illuminating response. But in any event, it takes awhile to get the hang of asking good questions.

The current S.O. moderation system (on-hold, duplicate, etc.) has some huge gaps that seems to neglect the needs of a new growing userbase of young programmers. Often times young programmers lack the vocabulary or ability to formalize their problem. However, learning how to formalize your question is a skill that can be cultivated and it seems appropriate that it S.O. could provide that. What if the moderation system rewarded the cultivation and coaching of creating good questions while gently segregating their efforts from more canonical questions? In a way that didn't penalize or belittling sincerely confused young programmers and gave eager "rep-whores" something constructive to do.

This seems equally valuable as a system that generates good answers. What I'm imagining might be beyond the scope of S.O. — it's definitely different than circa 2009 intention that the site still leans. Maybe it just points to a different kind of site entirely. But just as rep-whoring is kind of gross and pointless it's equally disheartening to see lack of vision on the part of upper management regarding the late-stage problem of being a super popular resource mostly visited by n00bs.

In summary: it's problem and an opportunity.

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  • 3
    Stack Overflow needs a forum. Maybe questions should start-out as forum threads and only the really good ones should be migrated to SO to become questions in The Canon. Commented May 12, 2014 at 14:49
  • 1
    @Kenny Other sites on the Internet already provide forums. Why should we duplicate their efforts? Our goal is to be different. We think better, but at least different.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 14, 2014 at 10:36
  • "Often times young programmers lack the vocabulary or ability to formalize their problem." Then learning those skills should be more ugent to them than seeking for help with their homework.
    – Geeky Guy
    Commented May 14, 2014 at 20:57
10

I'd stopped contributing a couple of months back as there appeared to be an increasing proportion of poorly formed questions and "gimme code" answers even when the question wasn't asking "gimme code". These answers, by failing to identify the root cause, cease being educational and encourage copy-paste coding. Among low reputation answerers, there does appear to be rep-gaming.

I'd dipped my foot in the water yesterday and found it remained the same as I remembered and perhaps worsened a little. Once a culture of gaming begins, I know of nothing that will stop it; based on game theory, I expect it to yield a nasty positive feedback loop.

I think being able to answer the question the "student" didn't even know he was trying ask is a valuable art; other responses here have talked about less experienced people not even being able to frame their question. Seeing through the presented "doesn't work" to the "here is the concept you are lacking" is essential when the OP lacks the vocabulary and experience in the craft. What seems to be dominating here is code golf in favor of pedagogy.

6

I think the backlash is simple, those that are looking to answer questions where engineers have been banging their heads for days, can't find them. They truly want to help somebody who has shown they have tried to help themselves.

However, I think this outcome was inevitable. Consider a broadcast I heard on the radio not so long ago; when a woman was asked why she was on welfare she said:

Why not? I don't have to work and I eat steak almost every day. However, you [the radio host] work every day to pay my paycheck.

When you get something for nothing, you get leeches; pretty simple. It's the welfare mentality being pushed all across the globe, and you're starting to see it here because the traffic has spiked.

The answer to the problem is pretty simple, but it's kicking against the pricks; charge for the service.

7
  • 2
    ... and then the traffic levels drop, and Stack Exchange might have to rethink their revenue model, and the law of unintended consequences kicks in, and - this is a risky proposal.
    – halfer
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 21:05
  • 1
    @halfer, I never said it was what should be done, I simply stated the solution to this dead horse. Sometimes people have to learn to take the good with the bad. Commented May 12, 2014 at 21:07
  • 1
    and then SO becomes EE... quite ironic.
    – mrjoltcola
    Commented May 13, 2014 at 23:01
  • 13
    "... and I eat steak almost every day" Sure. Either she's talking about cat, or she's an anti-welfare stooge.
    – mcalex
    Commented May 14, 2014 at 4:11
  • @mcalex that was a funny comment
    – likejudo
    Commented May 14, 2014 at 17:37
  • 2
    You said "charge for the service". When the price of admission was "do your homework on your question first" that seemed ample payment for services rendered. Put another way, "please don't make me waste my time when you aren't willing to meet me as far as your skills allow". Yes, a sense of unearned entitlement seems to be increasing, but comparing it to social welfare is straining the analogy on both sides.
    – msw
    Commented May 15, 2014 at 6:41
  • It is hard to consider asking questions when you might be referred to as a 'prick'. My recent question was downvoted within minutes of being asked and despite attempts to reason with the person doing the downvoting, I still don't think he got the point, I just pulled the question. Too many high priests now. (Still a wonderful site for getting answers though)
    – jimscafe
    Commented May 10, 2016 at 1:43
6

I also agree that the quality of SO questions is diminishing.

If we want those who post questions to be more skillful (that is, actively discourage beginners from posting questions), then we could add a captcha-like "Answer this Java question" mechanism to prevent their questions. That is, if they know enough to answer a beginner question (the captcha) then their real question has a better chance of being a medium-level question.

2
  • I like this idea, but only present the captcha to low-rep users. Maybe if they fail the captcha, they would be redirected to ask their question on a new StackExchange Site created for the purpose of beginner questions ... or at the very least redirect them to the how to ask a question page Commented May 19, 2014 at 14:56
  • Actually, asking the captcha for every question would be better. If someone is asking questions so often that answering a captcha becomes a burden - their questions are highly unlikely to be of high quality.
    – Gerrat
    Commented May 30, 2014 at 13:15
5

Beeing a small fish here I see a lot of unnecessary and sometimes really stupid correction attempts. It feels like people have no interest at all in the question corrected, rather than in correcting the question.

In every field to learn, absolute beginners can not grasp the reason for criticism, hence they do not learn from it. They just get confused even more, especially by an uncommented and anonymous "You have been punished by someone for something very bad!!". So the more intelligent they are, the more they are driven away by shit like that. Educational gain in deleting poor questions can only be justified for intermediate members and up who already know the value of a good question.

If the act of trashing noob questions really is for filtering reasons, I recomend to make it a filter. If it is a rep source for some achivers looking for easy points, I suggest to punish them. Find a way to let the noobs do their nooby stuff here without them bugging you and you eating them, that is your responsibility as the bigger fishes.

3
  • 1
    I can't really understand what you're saying here. If you're saying that the overhead of trying to clean up poor-quality questions is placing a severe drain on the time and energy of the users, then I think that is 100% true. If you are advocating a filter that would prevent this chaff from ever being submitted in the first place, I also wholeheartedly agree with that. But if you're saying that we should avoid editing/correcting/improving posts, then you are totally and completely wrong. As for this talk about "punishment", I don't know what you're referring to.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2014 at 5:42
  • 4
    I totally agree. I rarely ask questions but when I do it's after careful research. There have been a number of occasions that I get a downvote without good reason. I ask why and rarely get a reason back. It's much easier to downvote than give a constructive criticism. If you are too lazy to give a reason then don't downvote. Commented May 20, 2014 at 10:17
  • Thanks Cody, maybe I was unclear about my intention: In my eyes it is useless and destructive to direct critizism of any form (downvoting, deleting, correcting etc) to people who do not have the experience to understand the reasoning thats behind. Commented May 26, 2014 at 11:22
5

Q: Why the backlash against poor questions? A: For the same reason people don't like spam - you have to wade through it to get to the actual content.

4

I'm even newer than you: I started posting for the first time today after finding answers on here via Google for years. I spent a lot of time thinking about whether to write this or not because I think I know what the reaction will be from a certain crowd, but obviously I decided to go ahead.

First of all, though I'm "new" to (posting on) SO, I'm not exactly new to the Internet. You might not even know what I'm talking about when I say that my earliest online experiences involved a 300 baud modem and a CompuServe account. Since that time I've seen this pattern over and over again:

  1. A smallish group of dedicated users flocks to a "community" like Stack Overflow or Compuserve . . . or Usenet . . . or the Internet itself.
  2. Word of the community spreads and eventually it's bombarded with large numbers of new users that cause the overall quality of communication and usefulness declines.
  3. The "old pros" first try to steer things in what they consider a better direction, but their attempts are overwhelmed. Eventually they become bitter and spend much of their time and energy lashing out at the newbies.

I've been in the "old pro" crowd myself, but eventually I decided that the best thing for both me and everyone else to do was just walk away if I couldn't be consistently civil. What I considered a "bad" question probably wasn't bad to the person who posted it. Yeah, I know that it's been asked 1,000 times before, but that's because I dedicated hours, if not days, of my life participating -- and therein lies the problem. People come to feel an inappropriate sense of ownership and become emotionally vested in something they probably shouldn't. Look at some of the Wikipedia articles that are jealously (and inappropriately according to its rules) "guarded" by a single person who feels strongly about that topic to see what I mean.

And let's keep something else in perspective too: the vast majority of questions asked and answered on here as "good" questions could eventually have been answered by the person who posed the question. The point, I believe, is that instead of them spending hours researching it they can get an answer from someone who knows the answer off the top of their head: at least that's how / why I wind up using SO, and I'm positive I'm not alone. Are some people lazy? Of course, but "good" and "bad" questions are to a large extent in the eye of the beholder.

Also familiar to me from those other places is the "signal-to-noise" claim that the old timers are just trying to maintain the quality of the questions, and I do believe that's PART of the truth. I also think, though, that their motives aren't all that pure: instead of lashing out, they could politely and constructively point out the poster's error(s) -- but they often choose not to. No, the truth is that they lash out because part of their motive is to make themselves feel better by venting their frustration over their (probably correct) perception that things aren't like they were in the "good old days".

Maybe some of those folks just need to take a deep breath and step away for a while or even permanently. But again, that's not easy to do when you've invested so much time in a community like this; I know that from personal experience.

8
  • 1
    see Shirky: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy - one of the fundamental studies that heavily influenced design of Stack Overflow
    – gnat
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 17:35
  • 4
    The site works very hard to ensure that when a question doesn't meet the site's standards the reasons for that are made very clear to the question author. It's why closed questions all have a clear and understandable close reason that directs users to the resources that they need to fix the question, and why the majority of closed questions get comments, often several, explaining what is wrong and how to go about fixing it. The site has worked quite hard to ensure said comments are appropriate and not insulting.
    – Servy
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 17:36
  • 1
    So, Servy, you haven't seen any replies with a nasty tone or any questions that were anonymously down-voted with no explanation for the down-vote?
    – Gimpy
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 17:44
  • @Kandor Of course we've all seen inappropriate comments. People are people and people get fed up when confronted with things they find objectionable and often react in the heat of the moment. That said, SO does do what it can to eliminate such comments. I understand where you're coming from, but the whole point of SO was to avoid becoming what Usenet and all of the other forums have become. Whether or not it will succeed is another question, and it just might. But the only way to do that is by discouraging content that drives away the people whose contributions matter the most.
    – dandan78
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 17:57
  • @dandan78 It all boils down to whether or not there's a problem with the overall tone on SO. The accused seem to think that they're doing God's work, but based on what has been up-voted, it appears that many new or infrequent contributors disagree. At a minimum, I think you'd have to admit that there's an us-versus-them mentality: after all, you yourself implicitly segregated participants into "people whose contributions matter the most" and the rest of us.
    – Gimpy
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 18:21
  • @Kandor I suppose it is an us-vs-them situation. And I, frankly, I subscribe to the keep the crap at bay strategy. Otherwise, SO will become just another dead community. I for one am getting tired of seeing the same old stuff over and over and over again. Maybe it's a losing battle, but I think it deserves to be fought.
    – dandan78
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 19:20
  • "The accused seem to think that they're doing God's work" - nope, they are just trying to uphold the values of the project - "but based on what has been up-voted, it appears that many new or infrequent contributors disagree" - if those people do not subscribe to the values values of the project it is obvious that there will be disagreement.
    – duplode
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 19:29
  • 1
    @gnat Thanks so much for that link! Commented May 26, 2014 at 18:16
4

Stack Overflow is the bitcoin of programming Q&A. The keyspace (bad questions) is growing faster than the mining rigs, so there isn't enough power to search the keyspace, yet without the keyspace, there is no point in searching. Human miners cant keep up, no more than Google can manually moderate all its content.

On second thought, Stack Overflow is like bitcoin mining, where other miners can fire torpedoes at you.

3

I agree with the OP to some extent but think the focus on signal-to-noise issues is a possible overreaction and distracts from other issues which need attention, that being down-votes.

Signal To Noise

While statistics given by other users may be true they don't tell the whole story. When SO first started, the site had not come to the attention of the majority of the public so the signal-to-noise ratio was high. This is easier to do when you have the target user group as early adopters. Also, don't forget that many questions from the site's early days have already been deleted or moved because they didn't fit with the site's Q&A focus, this distorts your numbers from prior years, see Survivorship Bias. Don't forget that the site's founders appreciated the extra/duplicate questions and more items for Google's index with the plan being poor questions being closed or down voted into obscurity in addition to being linked to the high quality question to improve its relevancy in Google's PageRank system.

Squelch by Closing

I've noticed many pretty decent questions appearing on the list of close votes, possibly due to the desire by some to squelch the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR for brevity's sake). I don't know how many votes it takes to appear on the list, maybe this needs its own meta question. What I suspect is that, in an effort to improve the SNR, people with high enough rep are voting to close some questions that aren't really bad, since by definition you can improve the ratio not only by removing noise but also removing signals that aren't "good enough". SO has certain mechanisms for users to control the SNR and they currently favor the close-vote which definitely works against noise at the expense of filtering out marginal questions.

Downvotes

Joel and Jeff discussed many times and in much detail how to maintain quality on a Question and Answer site. One of the mechanisms they favored was down-voting. Their assumption being that if the question was on topic (so not eligible for an outright move or close) but of questionable quality, it would get hit with downvotes which would solve the SNR issue. The problem with this is people value their rep so much they don't want to spend even 1 reputation point on downvotes which results in poor questions not getting the negative feedback the system assumes they will be given and more probably an overuse of close votes because they are free relative to downvotes.

Summary

SO assumes downvotes will used to control the squelch level needed to filter out bad questions. When users are unwilling to expend rep, the alternatives are more noise due to ignored questions and a higher number of close votes in an effort to control the noise without affecting the users reputation.

Suggestion

Maybe we need a more robust means to define/implement a 'squelch' system at the user level which takes into account not just whether a question is closed but how many votes it has. If your questions has not received any up-votes, maybe you don't need to come to the attention of high-rep users. That solves the 'wasting the readers time' issue. If they want to see more unvoted questions, they change a setting in their profile.

1
  • 2
    "The problem with this is people value their rep so much they don't want to spend even 1 reputation point on downvotes which results in poor questions not getting the negative feedback the system assumes they will be given..." Actually, this problem has been solved. Downvotes on questions are free, and have been for some time. So vote away!!
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 20, 2014 at 5:43
2

Google

Another problem is that the noise ratio has leaked into Google. Because of SOs success when you search on Google for a problem, which I think for most is the first step, the majority of results are from SO.

This means that people who are genuinely researching for themselves and not leaching will get a large number of bad questions that are not answered. The person doesn't get the hundreds of other resources out there. Now it is a vicious cycle because they fail to easily get the answer, they ask on SO, after all it's no 1. on Google.

IMO stackoverflow should limit it's results on Google and/or find a way to heavily backlink to either the duplicate or external resource. Yes it would reduce SO prominence on the web but they already killed EE so maybe it's time for a little competition.

-5

I finally realized something. Stack Overflow has turned Tech Questions into a MMRPG, and we are all players in it. The action here is no longer so much about the content, but about gamesmanship, who will score points and move up to the next level. It has become the Amway of the Tech Question marketplace. Somehow, they have become hurtful, rude and ugly to their would-be newer users. Count me out. This site needs a massive rethink. Wikipedia manages to curate all their content and keep it high quality without raising the ire of all their contributors, why can't this one do it as well?

7
  • 8
    "Wikipedia manages to curate all their content and keep it high quality without raising the ire of all their contributors". I suggest you actually spend some time there to see if your assumptions are true.
    – duplode
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 19:22
  • Yes indeed there is controversy on the "talk" pages of Wikipedia. But that's not my main point -- the point is the end result is curated and of reasonably high quality, and extremely useful and easy to find things in.
    – bearvarine
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 22:32
  • 3
    "the end result is curated and of reasonably high quality, and extremely useful and easy to find things in." As in SO. And, just like here, there is a divide in Wikipedia between newcomers and regulars, with analogous complaints about clueless noobs and aggressive modding. If anything, the issue is far more serious at Wikipedia, as editor retention is a real concern over there.
    – duplode
    Commented May 23, 2014 at 0:09
  • "Count me out." Take it from somebody who's been on both sides of this before: consider it a gift -- seriously. Better to be run off than to spend countless hours of your life trying to win the electronic equivalent of those gold stars teachers would stick next to your name on a piece of poster board in elementary school. There are other, less unfriendly places where you can have ad-hoc questions answered and of course you can still get information from SO via Google without having to deal with the cyber bullies who convince themselves they're doing good by treating others badly.
    – Gimpy
    Commented May 29, 2014 at 13:54
  • 1
    @Kandor. Please, please pass on your list of "less unfriendly places" where you can have ad-hoc questions answered to the countless posters who don't even bother googling for their answer before posting on SO. You'll be doing both them and SO a great service.
    – Gerrat
    Commented May 30, 2014 at 13:19
  • And folks like you will be doing everyone else a big favor if you just continue to hang out in SO; it's best if you all congregate in one place and keep earning your gold stars like good boys.
    – Gimpy
    Commented May 31, 2014 at 3:14
  • @Garrat To get people to do that, you have to give them a reason to want to. I also know other sites where I can get more friendly answers, albeit at a slower pace and some cruft thrown in. But I need something better than their own well being to risk having the same people overwhelm a site that works well, causing the same problems you are having here. The last thing I want is for these small friendly places to become large and lose their friendliness.
    – trlkly
    Commented Jul 2, 2014 at 16:41

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