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When staging grounds was proposed, I was excited. Finally a place where we can break free of the shackles and baggage that has accumulated on the main site, so that we can start anew with a sane onboarding experience. People call me naive because I expect the best of things, but I should have seen this coming.

Staging ground has devolved onto the main site, yet again. Why? It has the same failings: an atrocious first asker experience. It was literally spelled out in the introduction of staging ground that we wanted to make success rates of questions that came through the staging ground higher, no matter the cost. It is even part of the own help page that the rules of the main site are expected to be thrown overboard; less thoughtful edits, more positive engagement, Ok questions are Ok, major overhauls are expected, etc.

But it has come patently obvious that regulars of the sites are not the best to deliver on those. They can't get rid of the baggage that is the main site and move towards a headspace where staging ground is literally a personal coach for the asker, that should advocate for the asker's posts. We became the equivalent to job recruiters that have the firms, not the applicants, best interests at heart.

So, I ask: what's the value of all the bickering with SE staff, all the work that was poured, all discussions, if we can't break free of curse of applying the same standards of the main site, with all that implies?

Before starting to work solutions to this question, need to identify when the basic tenet, when we lost sight of the goals of SG: we introduced close votes. Yes, I'm saying this right now. Close votes shouldn't be a feature of staging ground, since it doesn't fit the workflow of staging ground.

Close votes is part of the life cycle of a question (along with deletion) for the main site: question gets asked, it's either gets answered with a good answer or closed to prevent answers, when fixed it's reopened so it can accept answers or deleted when it's not. Staging grounds doesn't expect questions to be outright answerable, this is spelled out with the non-requirement to be "subject matter expert" to participate in the staging ground (something that I expect of close voters). There's also no deletion path for question on the staging grounds either. They just get archived, non-indexed and left visible forever. The edit option however perpetually is active, for both the asker and reviewers.

Those facts are a hint to the design and purpose of staging ground: no post is irredeemable. The only exit option for a post is to be graduated/published, otherwise all options of staging ground are present. The close vote (and their reasons) however doesn't fit here. If a question is unclear, it requires major changes, if it's off topic, major changes. Duplicate*? Major changes (explaining why the duplicate doesn't fit). Opinion based? Conditionally appro... nah, major changes. The way to fix posts on the staging ground is to edit them, even if that means to rewrite them into totally different questions.

Now, to practical solutions:

  • All close reasons with the exception of duplicate should become major changes template comments. This would reduce friction and will give the user something workable with.
  • Drill into reviewers that major changes are Major, with capital M. We expect that major changes do whatever is necessary to make the post a candidate to be published on the main site.
  • Remove the ability of casting close votes on staging grounds. This option should be reserved when the reader is in a headspace outside of staging grounds. Staging grounds is centered around the asker experience, not the reader. Also, it doesn't fit the staging ground life cycle.
  • Explain to reviewers that they should be laser focused on the question the are evaluating, what happens afterwards should not be of their concern. They are babysitters for the baby asker first question.

This will bring staging ground more in line with the stated goals that have been explained since the start and makes the staging grounds more coherent experience with those goals.

* I would argue that when reviewing staging grounds, you shall not search the site for duplicates. If the question is a good sign post, using duplicate in the staging ground would prevent it from being published and indexed, therefore not a good reason for staging grounds. See point 2 of the staging grounds guidelines.

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    "It was literally spelled out in the introduction of staging ground that we wanted to make success rates of questions that came through the staging ground higher, no matter the cost." So are you saying that posts that graduate out of the SG have a higher failure rate than those that didn't go through the SG? Do you have any numbers to back this statement up, and it's the opposite to what SO have claimed in the past.
    – Thom A
    Commented Oct 29 at 13:49
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    @Braiam Why completely re-write an off-topic question into something different if the user could just as well ask the new on-topic question as a new question? Commented Oct 29 at 13:54
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    @samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz That would be how the main site works, staging ground is not the main site. Once you stop thinking in the main site, it makes sense.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 13:55
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    @Braiam Brian what's the advantage of a re-write compared to a new question? Commented Oct 29 at 13:58
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    They've tossed SO regulars into the SG reviews without even asking if they are OK with that or to give the user moderators any on-boarding experience to the SG. I've occasionally ended up in it without trying and then it is just a "WTF go away" experience for me, since I want as little to do with SO moderation or volunteer work as possible. And I have zero interest in participating in new experimental features.
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:02
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    If users who don't want to be SG moderators and who don't even know what the SG is about end up reviewing it, then of course they will treat it as the main site. there's some secret switch in account -> settings -> preferences to enable/disable this but it was set as enabled by default.
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:02
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    "The way to fix posts on the staging ground is to edit them, even if that means to rewrite them into totally different questions." - Please, do not suggest rewriting a question again. You are better to suggest ability for asker to delete or abandon an SG question, so it will be possible to ask a new question.
    – Tsyvarev
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:08
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    There is a feature for that, @Braiam, it's called flagging, however, this relies on the moderators removing said comments; that (without blaming the moderators) can be a slow process. Expecting users to check the revision history of the question [in the SG] and check the times against the comments to see what the question at the time was about (Initially javascript, then Python, and now PHP) isn't a good UX for anyone.
    – Thom A
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:13
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    @Braiam Removing outdated comments is possible, but will it be done? A new post guarantees that no outdated comments are there. Commented Oct 29 at 14:14
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    "features on the main site, should only be considered if they further the goals of staging grounds" I assume this is directed at my latest comment, as you don't quote me, so are you saying flagging should be removed from comments/posts in the SG as that's a main site feature..? That sounds like a very poor idea in my opinion. We do encounter things like spam in the SG, and not being able to flag that content would be a significant issue.
    – Thom A
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:16
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    @samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz I do not want outdated comments to be removed tho, only decayed/hidden. Nothing on the staging grounds should be removed unless it is obvious spam or rude. Everything else, is fair game.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:17
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    @Tsyvarev I've seen questions in the SG that were deleted by askers, as to abandoning them, there doesn't really need to be a feature for it? They just stop interacting with the question and it will automatically get archived by the SG after some time, I've even seen some questions that were deleted by the roomba after some time. Commented Oct 29 at 14:19
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    Further feedback should probably be done with proper answers, so the mods don't have to do it for us. Commented Oct 29 at 14:25
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    "Full rewrites is expected of SG." No, it isn't, clearly. It is your expectation. There is a clear conflict of expectation here.
    – Thom A
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:27
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    "features on the main site, should only be considered if they further the goals of staging grounds" - this makes no sense. The Staging Ground was created in order to further the goals of the main site (by filtering what gets published). Not the other way around. It is not there so that people can have a more discussion-forum-like experience in one of the few remaining places on the Internet where there is human, user-generated explanation of a technical concept but no discussion forum experience. Commented Oct 29 at 18:07

6 Answers 6

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I disagree that all close reasons are equivalent to "major changes". In my opinion, requires major changes only applies when the topic of the question is on-topic on SO, but there is work needed before the question can be asked. Examples would be that critical information is missing, or it is unclear what exactly the question is about.

Other cases, especially being completely outside of the scope of the site (aka, "Are the job chances better as a Data Engineering or as a Software Engineering?" or "My iPhone doesn't work anymore") still need to be closed. We could ask people to rewrite there question and ask about a new problem, but I don't see any advantage here compared to asking a new question.

The close reasons "Not reproduceable or caused by a typo" might be "requires major changes" if information was missing to reproduce it. But if its really about a typo (the typical questions in JS or python where op has mistyped a variable name like lenght instead of length), or something outside of the questions scope (wrong permissions on the server) there is no change to the question that would improve it.

Staging ground should provide a better onboarding experience by helping users to improve their questions. Imho, it shouldn't be the job of staging ground to help an asker to find a topic they can ask about.

Currently, my view seems to be backed up by the Help Center - Guidelines and best practices for reviewers on the Staging Ground which states

  1. On-topic but poor quality = Major Changes

If the question is on-topic for the site but of poor quality, then Require Major Changes along with a comment identifying the issues is the proper choice.

Thanks to Tsyvarev for the hint

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  • "when the topic of the question is on-topic on SO" so, as long as it is a programming question then? Because, SO topic is not merely for programming questions. There are questions that get asked on the site, that should not be on topic, and yet are left to stand. So, the topic of SO "practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development", is ignored every day on SO.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:45
  • And yes, I know it comes rich from me, someone that have clamored to all winds before, but was rejected. So, right now, I'm just putting it as it is: SO regulars do not know what off topic is.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:45
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    @Braiam: I agree that there is a gray area where there is no clear consensus about the on-topic-ness of a question. But there are questions that are completely off-topic, have nothing to do with programming at all and will never be accepted by anyone on SO.
    – BDL
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:50
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    Regarding the answers to Can authors completely rewrite their Staging Ground posts?: The reason why I am reluctant to accept the +22 answer is that it isn't just about whether it is ok or not but more about the specific case/the confusion for reviewers so it's hard to classify that as "The Community agrees that rewriting is not ok" vs "People can understand why they used that option" or similar.
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:14
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I mostly agree with you but I still have some disagreements.

Not every question can be rewritten and reviewers shouldn't force that

If a question isn't about programming at all (e.g. it's about installing Windows or how to treat pets), there is no point in having the author rewrite that question unless the author wants to (e.g. if a question is originally about configuring Docker in non-programming context but the author is able to rewrite it to be about doing the same with programmatically (because that's what they actually need) or similar).

but removing close reasons might still be a good idea

The off-topic option has also been questioned during the beta test (the link is restricted to beta reviewers) with the suggestion of replacing it with "Require Major Changes". This discussion also came up a few times in the Staging Ground Discussion/Support chatroom. I agree with that idea for the following reasons (there's actually more than that to that idea):

  • People commonly use the "off-topic" option for questions that need clarification or similar.
  • Removing the off-topic simplifies the reviewer workflow as there is one less option (we could also get rid of "Conditionally approve pending Minor Edits" on the way) to work with and we don't have to deal with edge cases like a question being both off-topic and a duplicate if the reviewers disagree.
  • At the end, off-topic is practically just another form of "Requires Major Changes" but with
    • a different UI
    • more work (requiring two reviewers)
    • conflicts with duplicate (see above)
    • cannot be applied again by the same people (If a post is in off-topic and gets moved to "Requires Major Changes", the same reviewers cannot use the "off-topic" (or "duplicate") option again)
  • Comments allow explaining why the question is not ok (in its current form) in a more precise way than it is possible with closing

Success rates

It was literally spelled out in the introduction of staging ground that we wanted to make success rates of questions that came through the staging ground higher, no matter the cost.

I wouldn't call success rates the main goal. Instead, I think the Staging Ground should help askers improve their questions (by telling them how to change it) without ending up in a "closed" state where they have no idea what they should change/how to write a better question (which is a problem on the main site and in the Staging Ground, the authors generally have the ability to edit their posts and submit them for Re-Evaluation). The Staging Ground educates askers and improves questions which should lead to more successful questions. Ideally, askers see what is expected from them and are able to write better questions on their own in the future. I don't think improving success rates "no matter the cost" was ever the goal of the Staging Ground.

Duplicates

I think that reviewers should look for duplicates. Look for duplicates if you can.


However, I do think that process can be approved by automatically publishing duplicates to the main site if nothing else happens to the question (e.g. the author doesn't edit/Re-Evaluate it) after some time (e.g. one week). These questions wouldn't need to be shown on the start page (they are already solved) but should still be publicly available and indexed by search engines so they can act as sign posts if needed.

One issue I see with that approach is that this could still result in "bad questions" being published resulting in downvotes affecting the OP's reputation. As this may be confusing, I think the notification when a question is marked as a duplicate (as well as the author UI when viewing their duplicate question) should provide information that it would be posted to the main site automatically for future readers but that they also have the ability to delete their questions if they want to (aside from the edit/Re-Evaluate option they generally have).

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    I will delve a bit on the "unless the author wants to" aspect. The author interest is in solving the problem their are facing. If the problem they are facing is asked to the wrong people, then that's a comment, with guidance to what may be the correct people to ask. We could just decay those post faster, or suggest the user to without prejudice retract their question. The "without prejudice" here is important: there should be zero repercussions to the user for them retracting their posts. That means, question quality bans should not be implemented on staging grounds.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:59
  • Yes, authors shouldn't be forced to ask a question they don't want to ask. But to be honest, if an author doesn't do anything with their question, that shouldn't be a problem either (the question just stays in the Staging Ground and won't be published).
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:02
  • Ok, here's an idea, replace the off topic with "suggest retraction" which would have the same comments templates as off topic does, but it will give the option to the user to either retract their question or write in a way that addresses the comment.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:03
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    I don't think that helps in any way except that it would be confusing for reviewers (What's a retraction?), doesn't leave that much room for askers to clarify and seems more unhelpful/toxic (Do you want to be asked to retract your questions?).
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:08
  • "I wouldn't call success rates the main goal" I don't either. The goal is to have the best questions that we can have on the site, but success rates is a measure of how we are achieving that goal and it should be higher than whatever the main site with the tools of the main site achieve. But it doesn't, it sits at 30%, which is suspiciously similar to the main site success rate. This is an indication that things on the staging ground, aren't working as intended. It should be a better experience, instead it is the same with a new coat of paint.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:10
  • The specific wording is up to the air. What we want is a way for the user to mark their questions as something that they have no interest in interacting with anymore without any repercussion. They should be able to submit another post to the staging ground no matter how many retracted questions they have, etc. something that is dissimilar to how the main site works.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:12
  • Users can already do that by deleting their questions which is an option in the Staging Ground (even for published questions in which case it deletes the Staging Ground question but keeps the published one unless deleted as well). A deleted Staging Ground question cannot be reviewed/published. However, deleting Staging Ground questions isn't really necessary in most cases (in my experience).
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:15
  • "Users can already do that by deleting their questions which is an option in the Staging Ground", no they can't. Question quality filters do consider staging grounds questions and count against you.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:20
  • @Braiam Do you have any evidence for "Question quality filters do consider staging grounds questions and count against you."? I haven't seen anything really supporting that and I think that would be interesting to see.
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:21
  • @Braiam That user asked 10 other (non-Staging Ground) questions (none having a score > 1, one having a score of -3, one closed for "recommendations", one duplicate) so I cannot really confirm Staging Ground questions counting towards question bans (and especially not how exactly that counts). But I guess this could be an interesting follow-up.
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:23
  • Considering how staging grounds uses the same Posts table that is used for questions and answer, I don't see how it doesn't. But if you want confirmation, we could ask a CM. BTW, the ban applies to the /question/ask route, so it's the first thing that is seen when you are banned.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:25
  • There is a mechanism preventing users from asking bad questions in the Staging Ground over and over (link requires beta access) but that was very early (December 2022) and (I think) might be different from question bans.
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:30
  • @dan1st that link goes to stack overflow for teams. Not sure who can read that, I certainly can't :)
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:47
  • That's what I meant with "requires beta access" - It is the team that was used during the Staging Ground beta. The question itself was asking for whether there are mechanisms protecting against users posting a lot of closed questions in the Staging Ground without any questions being published. This question got a ticket and was marked as [status-completed] in May. In other words, there should now be a mechanism preventing a user from posting a lot of "bad" Staging Ground questions but I don't know how it works nor does it say anything definite about question bans.
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:57
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(I'm breaking away from my usual italic/bold formatting style for this answer - since it's more of a response than an attempt to state an authoritative position.)

It's good that you've brought up the discussion, but I think you have some fundamental misconceptions about this.

It was literally spelled out in the introduction of staging ground that we wanted to make success rates of questions that came through the staging ground higher, no matter the cost.

Right. And to do this, we must prevent questions from being graduated that don't meet the main site's standards, even at the cost of painstakingly explaining and enforcing those standards. If this is leading to an "atrocious first asker experience" then that boils down to some combination of established users' interpersonal skills and new users' incorrect expectations about the fundamental nature of the site.

But it has come patently obvious that regulars of the sites are not the best to deliver on those. They can't get rid of the baggage that is the main site and move towards a headspace where staging ground is literally a personal coach for the asker, that should advocate for the asker's posts.

On the contrary; when I think of names of users that I've noticed being perennial FGITWs who repeatedly fail to close questions that should be closed, I find that they're conspicuously absent from the SG. Of course, that could be a coincidence. The people doing most of the work in the SG seem to be those who have a special interest in curation; the ones who deeply understand the site's standards and their motivations.

As for that last bit, "advocating" for someone's posts when those posts fail to meet standards is the opposite of acting like a personal coach. A personal coach should want trainees to strive for excellence, and find causes for failure with actionable solutions - not excuses.

It is even part of the own help page that the rules of the main site are expected to be thrown overboard

Well, no; it says that "It is fine to approve a good question for publication even if it is not perfect." Which is why the Minor Edits status exists, and why questions will be published from that status even if OP doesn't edit. This absolutely does not mean that the main site's standards for questions are thrown overboard. It just means that polishing what is already acceptable by those standards is not required.

Staging grounds doesn't expect questions to be outright answerable

Yes, it absolutely does. Because the standards for questions on the main site do. Just because you aren't a subject matter expert doesn't mean you lack a mental model of whether a question is answerable by someone who is.

Before starting to work solutions to this question, need to identify when the basic tenet, when we lost sight of the goals of SG: we introduced close votes. Yes, I'm saying this right now. Close votes shouldn't be a feature of staging ground, since it doesn't fit the workflow of staging ground.

There aren't any "close votes" in the SG. It doesn't say "close" in the UI presenting options, and any appearance in the banner on a question marked as "off-topic" or a duplicate is just an artifact of reusing the banner.

This "red status" as I call it corresponds to a subset of main site close reasons, yes. It corresponds to a specific subset which appear to have been carefully chosen. What they have in common is a bit different from how the UI labels them: they indicate that a question cannot be fixed without fundamentally altering it. On the other hand, questions that require "Major changes" are simply those that a) cannot be posted as-is and b) require the OP's intervention to fix.

But more importantly, these aren't "close votes" because they can be trivially overridden anyway. Anyone with review privileges can come along and publish the question directly from that state, unilaterally. If anything, it's far too weak a measure for filtering out those questions.

All close reasons with the exception of duplicate should become major changes template comments.

Absolutely not. If a question is actually off topic, or caused by a typo, then "major changes" cannot cause it to be on topic or no longer caused by a typo. A result that meets standards would be a different question altogether.

Yes, the system design is such that the OP could just totally rewrite a different question in the same space without being especially disruptive (although that is already hotly debated). But it's important that the OP gets the information about what is topical on Stack Overflow; what we expect from readers in terms of applying an existing Q&A to their personal context; and what we expect from question authors in terms of making sure that the code says what you think it does and that your general approach to the problem is coherent and logical. "Major changes" doesn't do that; it falsely implies that at least the premise of the question is okay.

If the question is a good sign post, using duplicate in the staging ground would prevent it from being published and indexed, therefore not a good reason for staging grounds.

This is a separate matter.

There's also no deletion path for question on the staging grounds either. They just get archived, non-indexed and left visible forever. The edit option however perpetually is active, for both the asker and reviewers.

They are only visible to those with sufficient privileges. It's really not that different from deletion.

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    "Staging grounds doesn't expect questions to be outright answerable - Yes, it absolutely does." - I think it makes sense to distinguish between "looks answerable given the knowledge of the reviewer" and "actually answerable". Reviewers don't have to be SMEs and even if they are, there may be something necessary they don't (or can't) know about.
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 29 at 17:56
  • @dan1st I thought I covered that. I'm clearly not being super precise with the language. But "is answerable" is a consensus that emerges from multiple evaluations from separate people. They don't all need to be SMEs, true. If none are, then at least intuition can be applied. But the clear intent is a question that "... and is a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development". Commented Oct 29 at 17:57
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    That's not what the staging grounds set to achieve. I will quote badly here: Staging Ground started off with three main goals: 1) Improve the quality of questions asked by new users; 2) Increase the percentage of successful questions asked by new users; 3) Improve the engagement and knowledge transfer between new askers and reviewers. Note how question answerability isn't referenced, just quality.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 23:36
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    Then from the actual guidelines, "It is fine to approve a good question for publication even if it is not perfect. A question that is reasonably formatted, generally understandable, on-topic, and appears to have all the information necessary to answer the question, is ready to be approved." Again, we don't need answerable here, just have the appearance of. Staging grounds question being closed further down the pipeline isn't a bug, it is a feature of the system.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 23:37
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    "when I think of names of users that I've noticed being perennial FGITWs who repeatedly fail to close questions that should be closed" and those are exactly the kind of person I'm not talking of. I'm talking about quote curators quote. I'm talking about people so lost in the weeds of moderation that can't get out and look at practical solutions to real problems.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 23:39
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Close reasons aren't really the problem... it's the fact that it's a road block to being helped. The fact that we are discouraged from giving the op an answer so they can move on just because the question hasn't been polished yet. The SG isn't built in a way that truly benefits the end user, it just shields their questions from downvotes.

I don't know what the solution is. Sure, the SG being a giant wall preventing users who can't write good questions is nice for those of us who want to keep the site clean of low quality questions and prevent dupes from being answered... but... if it's making the process more difficult for the group of users this site can't grow without... why should they even bother coming here anymore?

I think some of the systems the SG implements are great tools, better tools than what we have outside of the SG. The idea that we can put questions into these buckets of different kinds of needed assistance is something that can help guide users toward improving their questions better than existing tools can. I don't think we necessarily need these tools and the question to be quarantined off in the SG while being improved.

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  • "if it's making the process more difficult for the group of users this site can't grow without... why should they even bother coming here anymore?" and that's exactly the point. Regulars only want the wall, but aren't willing to understand that the wall is there to "protect" new askers from them. They are literally the worse kind of user to be useful in staging ground.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:46
  • There was an idea that I rejected from posting it in my question, and is that staging ground should only be available to those that are below 3k reputation/don't have close votes. I consider that idea too controversial, but it seem to be the best path forward.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:47
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    I don't think we necessarily need to prevent people who have created valuable content on the site from participating in improving new content, rather the tools we have to do so need to be more effective. I'm scared to death of losing the ability to downvote... but also... if i could instead indicate "this needs a better title" without spending as much time writing a comment as it would have taken to change the title directly maybe i woulda done that instead of casting a downvote. :shrug:
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:50
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    "and prevent dupes from being answered" - That would require reviewers to actively look for dupes which is hard to do.
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:53
  • @KevinB I mean, if they pledge to #root that they will advocate for the asker post, more power to them, but it have become evident that those users can't get rid of such behavioral patterns, then the next step is to get rid of those users.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 14:56
  • "being helped" in the way that you describe is not the goal of the site and not compatible with the Q&A model. Determining a proper question to ask (which is independent of the underlying problem that needs to be solved), and then applying the answer off-site to solve the problem, is a basic expectation for users. We don't solve the problem in any customized manner because the point is to leave behind information that third parties can use. Commented Oct 29 at 17:53
  • It is literally the goal of the site, that's what the purpose of the knowledge repository is.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 29 at 17:56
  • @KarlKnechtel Staging grounds exists for the asker. Not for you, not for me, but for the one asking a question.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 23:30
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    @kevinb to help yourself, yes. The point of a knowledge base is to be able to help yourself. No involvement of other people required. But in order for that to work, the knowledge base needs clean content. This is where questions and answers come in and where we need to be extremely strict with ourselves and always keep in mind that posting an answer is not to help a person. It is to fill a hole in the knowledge base. The staging ground should have the purpose of making that process of filling the hole a bit less of a mystery - both asker and answerer in my eyes. It's not really succeeding yet.
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 30 at 10:55
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I don't think this is necessary. Off-topic posts can still be edited and resurrected. In fact, this is much easier in the Staging Ground than on the main site - whereas main site posts have to accumulate reopen votes, Staging Ground questions can be graduated (or at least moved to a different review phase) by a single reviewer. Users can even request reevaluation, which will push their question back near the top of the queue. In some ways, getting "closed" as off-topic isn't really that different from being marked as "Major changes."

You said it yourself - "There's also no deletion path for question on the staging grounds either. They just get archived, non-indexed and left visible forever. The edit option however perpetually is active, for both the asker and reviewers." If "closing" a Staging Ground doesn't delete it and editing is always an option, then what about the system is problematic?

As to the footnote about duplicates - I've asked this question before, and the rough consensus was that this is not really a problem.

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    "Staging Ground doesn't delete it and editing is always an option, then what about the system is problematic?" that site regulars use it as it's used on the main site, when they shouldn't do it. Site regulars think of closed questions as final, and fight against any attempt to addressing them. There's literally a user that felt that his close vote was wasted because the user rewrote their question into something else. This is not the kind of mentality that should be fostered. That user didn't waste their time, it made the asker ask a better question instead.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:18
  • 1
    @Braiam That's a problem with onboarding, not the tool itself. Anyways, what damage did that user do? The tool did its job, and the post got improved. I'm not sure what else you want from the system.
    – Anerdw
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:23
  • This tool is onboarding FFS! Problems with onboarding are problems with this tool. Or we would have another tool in front of staging grounds to pass to staging grounds?
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 15:32
  • 4
    "Site regulars think of closed questions as final, and fight against any attempt to addressing them. There's literally a user that felt that his close vote was wasted because the user rewrote their question into something else." This is absolutely not true for people who explicitly see themselves as wearing the curator hat. For other regulars, that is a problem with their understanding of the main site, not anything to do with the SG whatsoever. Those users need to be educated (and I don't think I've been seeing them around the SG anyway). Commented Oct 29 at 17:50
  • @KarlKnechtel exactly. The staging ground exists outside of the main site, so keep the problems of the main site out of the staging grounds.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 29 at 23:32
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    The standards upheld by the main site aren't its "problems" - until it starts receiving SG questions that don't meet them. Commented Oct 30 at 1:37
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According to Reviewing in the Staging Ground:A practical guide the current best practice is already very close to what you want here in this question. It says "Require Major Changes is your main tool" and "Don't overuse "Vote as off-topic"". The offtopic close reason in staging ground is only for the hopeless cases where only a total rewrite would help. And we don't want complete rewrites.

Maybe that is the point here, maybe not. I think it's fine to start again instead of endless rewrites if that is communicated clearly. Indeed some questions will never get into shape, because the asker may give up at some point.

I agree that we probably wouldn't need close votes in the staging ground, questions there are already closed. And in principle close votes on the main site always wanted to send questions back to staging ground, only they couldn't as long as staging ground didn't exist.

I would like to see more statistics about how the staging ground fares. Participation, closings, major revisions, graduations, performance on main site...

Is everything good with the staging ground with the guidance that focuses on major revisions then? I guess we still have the problem of curators' fatigue (not that many, not that helpful comments, not that encouraging attitude, inconsistent) and of too little effort of askers (not editing their question into shape, not investing enough time and energy). No amount of guidance in the world can change that. Maybe staging ground is a good idea but too unrealistic at the moment. Maybe the future of Q&A is indeed heavy support by AI in all stages.

And we still want high quality questions. That gives the success metric. We can further optimize the process but if we would simply lower the standard in staging ground, then questions would rather crash on the main site instead (unless we lower the standard there too, would we want that?).

P.S.: And I'm always surprised how difficult they made the discovery of the staging ground. Why is it not in the review queues or somewhere where it's really easily discoverable?

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  • Just my opinion: I think that in some cases, a question is (justifiably) off-topic (e.g. it isn't/doesn't seem to be about programming but about using computer programs or it is opinion-based or whatever) and can still be edited in a way I wouldn't call an unwanted rewrite: By changing what the question is actually asking but with pretty much the same context (e.g. the question changes to be about that in a programming scenario or asks about specific issues in one approach instead of asking for opinions or ask about issues with a specific tool instead of tool recommendations)
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 31 at 14:55
  • "P.S.: And I'm always surprised how difficult they made the discovery of the staging ground. Why is it not in the review queues or somewhere where it's really easily discoverable?" erm... it's in the left menu, and you get a bubble popup when you unlock it, and it appears in your question list when you unlock it, it's far more discoverable than review queues..
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 31 at 15:18
  • @KevinB Ok, then just I have problems finding it. I don't really use the left side much and tend to forget about it. Commented Oct 31 at 17:49

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