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This is going to be incredibly incendiary and controversial for a feature that was launched today, but I feel that it has to be said.

The new Collectives feature relies on existing conventions to ensure that content remains moderated and curated as per Stack Overflow norms. Stack Overflow has always had an uneasy relationship with major projects and other tech communities pointing their users to us and working with the community in our space.

The Collectives feature does not address key pain points in working with those communities; chiefly, the biggest one being that those communities are not active on Stack Overflow to the degree that several members could handle content moderation consistent with our expected norms.

By introducing this as a commercialized feature, Stack Overflow is implicitly expecting the work of content moderation to be done by the community, with the only real kick back being that the lights stay on. Despite the company's FAQ providing some reassurances in regards to how moderation could work, due to the fact that money has exchanged hands, the community no longer appears to be the primary driver of what kind of content it wishes to support.

Therefore, I can not in good faith consent to any kind of moderation of any questions living within a collective, and I forcefully request that those collectives be made responsible for moderating and curating their own content.

The FAQ attempts to address my concern directly:

But does this mean that these organizations own the Q&A content?

No, all questions and answers will remain on Stack Overflow. Nothing changes here. Moderation rules, code of conduct, etc. will all remain the same. The license of the content will remain the same as described here.

Does Stack Overflow become a support portal for large organizations?

No. Even though we might see more of our customers' clients coming to Stack Overflow for help, the rules around Q&A on Stack Overflow remain the same, and we'll continue to set appropriate expectations with our customers & users.

...however I've been around long enough to know that this isn't as smooth as we want it to be.

The first point is the most blatant one I'm calling out - everything here remains the same. From a process perspective, that's good! It means that the natural Stack Overflow engine will continue to work as it always has.

But it also means that there is absolutely no expectation set on the Collective or any of its members to have enough reputation to moderate content, or be in tune with our site's norms. We - the curators - have to pick up that slack.

In the light of the recent acquisition, I find this to be disrespectful. I could almost accept it if it were necessary to keep or continue operations, but even then I would still want to charge communities who wanted their little slice of Stack Overflow to be responsible for taking care of it, as opposed to tacitly and implicitly pushing that responsibility onto the community.

In other words - I don't want to work for free. My time as a volunteer is valuable, and I'm starting to realize that it's a lot more valuable than I originally believed it to be.

The second point is that these "appropriate expectations" aren't really clear. I mean, it isn't like the company has that great of a track record on telling outsiders what our site is about, so I'm not feeling super confident that we're going to be able to tell customers what the site is about and expect them to fully be OK with that.

They're paying, after all.

And yes, I fully recognize that this is a presumption. However, the company doesn't really tell us anything anymore, and with the trend towards profit and monetization, I don't anticipate this whole agreement being entirely balanced in the perspective of the community-at-large and the outside communities reaching a mutual understanding.

Furthermore, this approach takes Stack Overflow closer to that of a social media platform as opposed to being strictly about Q&A. In the past, no one cared if you were officially working for a company, but only if your solution was valuable. Users who work or have worked for big tech companies have done very, very well in providing valuable solutions in the framework of vanilla Q&A.

We never intended to become a forum, or like social media, or like anything resembling forums or the other things that Stack Overflow was built to destroy. Collectives change that, and that is not a welcome change for me.

Ultimately from my perspective, this represents a major paradigm shift away from the community participating in the direction of the site to the company dictating the site.

And that's fine. But I'm going to just politely request that you clean up after yourselves, though.


Edit: After Google's initial misuse of Collectives, Stack Overflow is exploring ways to make that kind of content "work" with the site. In a move that felt like it was wholly predictable, instead of outright rejecting the kind of content that was going to show up, the company is trying to figure out a way to accommodate it. This is one very strong reason why I do not wish to moderate any collective, and I am further demanding that the company require anyone using collectives to moderate it on their own.

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    I generally agree with the sentiment here. If they're going to pay to slap their colorful logo on it and gain some ability to make their members seem more recognized in the content they post than normal community members, they should take up some of the slack in moderating that content. however... forbidding regular users from using certain tools might be a step too far
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 23, 2021 at 20:55
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    I cant agree with this, purely because collectives are not separate from Q&A, if a technology that I use ends up as part of a collective I want someone who knows stack curating it. Its not that I'm happy picking up slack, it's that I would be less happy with some 1 rep user who got the privilege just given to them doing it. Its the lesser of the two evils in my eyes. Commented Jun 23, 2021 at 20:56
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    Oh, I never said anything about removing the tools @KevinB. I just said that we shouldn't be held responsible or that there shouldn't be an expectation that the community-at-large handles moderation. Removing the tools sounds way too finicky.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 23, 2021 at 20:56
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    @Nick: That plays to the tension of curating someone else's help questions. It's not really the best experience when someone comes here treating the site like a help desk, expecting a typical response to a typical question, just to be told that we actually have standards. Again, I wouldn't mind it if it were something that were voluntary or if money/contracts didn't exchange hands, but if they're paying, surely there's a budget to allow for someone that isn't just in the community to manage this.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 23, 2021 at 20:58
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    @Makoto Yep, I'm sure there's a way that they can get it to work, but the potential for people who don't know what they're doing to cause an even larger problem than just more crap to review is too large a risk for me without there being some kind of guarantee of quality [of curation], which realistically isn't going to happen. That said, I'll watch this space. Commented Jun 23, 2021 at 21:03
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    @Nick: Sorry but I'm taking a more extremist mentality here. I'm okay with letting this burn because they chose to set it on fire. I want to preserve things on the site as well, but if the company wants us to cast us aside for whatever reason to introduce this whole new workflow that we then also have to support, that's just not something I'm going to cosign.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 23, 2021 at 21:04
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    "the community no longer appears to be the primary driver of what kind of content it wishes to support." I mean I recall Tim or someone saying explicitly a year or three ago that Stack Overflow is unique among network sites in that it does not get a say in what kind of content it allows, in response to me asking basically that exact question.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 23, 2021 at 21:24
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    So then we should be unique in the kind of content we're willing to moderate, then @TylerH. Kinda crappy situation that we're going to get dumped with whole new processes with little to no say on whether or not we think the quality of the content we're getting is suitable.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 23, 2021 at 21:30
  • 1
    Related: Beta release of Collectives™ on Stack Overflow Commented Jun 23, 2021 at 23:44
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    Re "We never intended to become a forum": Well, apparently it is a forum: "Stack Overflow ... It's a free and open forum" (at 2 min 57 secs). -- Prashanth Chandrasekar, 2020-06-30. This is what we have feared all along. As part of the onboarding at Stack Overflow, every employee ought to be quizzed on what Stack Overflow is not (like onboarding for (computer) security). Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 0:17
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    It's one thing answering, asking and curating questions when the main beneficiary is the community. This however feels like it's one step short of becoming a free (and volunteer-based curated) documentation writing / bug-fixing service for paying companies. That's the pessimist in me though, we'll have to see how far this goes.
    – Someone
    Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 0:57
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    The FAQ is Are Stack Exchange sites forums? There is also Robert Cartaino's seminal "Open-forum discussion vs. deliberative assembly". Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 13:12
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    "...any questions living within a collective" If I understood it correctly, the questions are basically shared between everyone and every collective with tags in that question. It's not that questions live exclusively within a collective. But what you probably fear is lots of low quality questions in these tags? Actually there is one thing I don't completely understand: what is the difference between the golang-collective tag icon and the golang tag? Can there be questions that have one and not the other or would they always occur simultaneously? Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 15:51
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    @TylerH if you ask people "what is a forum?" and put a image of a bulletin board ala phpbb, they will say, that this is a forum. If you call yourself a forum, they will treat you as forum, even if you mean something else.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 19:02
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    @Braiam "problem" is not really the right word. I'm saying context indicates a more nuanced use of the term than what a superficial reading might indicate. This is typically something measured in terms of 'grasp of English', not just as a science, but as an art.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 22:40

4 Answers 4

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I'm against this. You're asking if the community may please pre-emptively surrender in a war that hasn't even started yet against an enemy who may not even exist.

You postulate a hypothetical future in which:

  • the community's attempts to moderate the content of paying customers leads to conflict with those customers, and
  • the staff sides with the people paying the money, and so
  • we end up still having to do the work of moderating content in collectives, but have to do so without stepping on the toes of paying customers, and so don't have the power or freedom to do the job as it ought to be done, and so
  • the community carries on doing the same amount of work, but to some degree it has been turned into pointless busywork, since when paying customers post bad content we can't fix or remove it

I am happy to grant that this future is possible and worrying.

But it's merely possible. It's not at all certain. Indeed, as you point out yourself, the FAQ for Collectives explicitly says that none of the rules around moderating this content will change, nor will paying customers gain any ownership of content by virtue of having paid. In other words, the staff are already assuring us that the dire outcome you envisage will not happen.

Maybe that's a lie. Maybe it's sincere but they'll go back on it the moment that they worry they're going to lose a contract if they don't give in to a paying customer's demands. But why assume that up front? Are we really so cynical about the company's honesty now that we see an explicit assurance from the company that a particular rule change will not be implemented and assume by default that it therefore will be implemented? I don't think that much cynicism is justified.

Forfeiting our right to moderate large swathes of content (for instance, the entire tag, which now falls under a Collective) and handing it over to corporate entities with different values and objectives to us would be a massive loss for the community. It arguably wouldn't be desirable even if the bad future you imagine were to come to pass. I don't want it to happen.

And I certainly don't want it to happen now when there's not yet any clear evidence that our freedom to moderate content is going to be reduced at all.

If the customer-controlled future of Stack Overflow that you fear begins to happen, we should:

  • continue moderating the content as we see fit regardless of what the company wants, and
  • point out to them that when Collectives first launched, Teresa assured us explicitly that the community's power to moderate content would be unaffected, and
  • put the ball into the company's court: they can live with us doing the right thing, or they can suspend us, but they can't just get our meek compliance with compromising the integrity of the site for money

Maybe that fight will happen, and maybe we'll lose, but I see no reason at all to pre-emptively surrender when neither of those things is yet clear!

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    I'm very glad you wrote this. I've been procrastinating writing an answer because I just didn't know how to put my feelings into sufficiently eloquent words. You have done so. The only reason why I'm not staunchly opposed to and/or horrified by this Collectives thing is because moderation remains precisely the same: no rule changes, no feature changes, still in the hands of the community and the elected moderators. I'm not anywhere near ready to give up yet. And I don't see why we have to.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 11:01
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    It's always a question of where to draw the line. We would probably continue to moderate content quality regardless of the person who is contributing, but with new roles of persons (member of collective XYZ, I'm right and you're wrong) that might be compromised. In the end, we might get supoptimal results. At some point, someone might draw a line. Makoto is very strict in that, others are more lenient. It's his decision if this time is too precious, then it is. For you it seems to be different. In the end there is inertia, Stack Overflow will not cease to moderate from tomorrow on. We'll see. Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 16:00
  • There's an assumption the community has power in this transaction, it doesn't. The only power the community has, is the withdrawal (or not) of it's time/effort/advertising revenue. This is about $
    – Liam
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 13:18
  • There's a lot that I want to respond to in this post and I'm tempted to edit the main question with some clarifications, but there is one key misunderstanding I want to clear up with you.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 16:45
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    First and foremost, Stack Overflow's entire business model in this venture is to leverage the community to continue to curate and moderate its content. One could posit that this is more meant to keep the lights on, but with the recent acquisition I feel like that argument doesn't hold water much these days.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 16:46
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    Put another way, we are the ones who enable the success of this offering, and we're being expected to - glad to, even - do the work for free. In another light it's fine to have passionate volunteers willing to do a lot, but if the only thing we're getting back is that we still have the privilege of using the site, I'm not so sure that's exactly a fair balance.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 16:47
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    Second, we can't be suspended for not moderating content. That's not enforceable. You can't make people downvote things, and you can't make people close things, and you can't make people review things. In fact, curators are among a minority of Stack Overflow users to begin with. So even if we all stopped, it isn't like the company can just turn around and punish us for that.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 16:48
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    Third - and maybe most critically, this might be the point I want to actually edit into my main question - so very much has happened with the direction of Stack Overflow in the last couple of years that "their word" no longer holds binding value. A lot has happened in the last one and a half years, but even before all of that, there's been a slow burning distrust between the company and community that no one really felt comfortable with either talking about or fixing actively, as opposed to with more passive-aggressive campaigns or telling us to "be nicer", whatever that meant.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 16:50
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    With this, I'm challenging the community. Why are we working for free on this? Why should we continue to work for free on this? If groups are willing to pay for collectives, then they should be willing to put in the hard work to maintain them. Shelling out $$$ and then suddenly saying that they can't support it isn't good SaaS practice to begin with.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 16:51
33

I understand why you don't like this new "feature", and frankly, the more I think about it, the more I feel like I actually don't like it either.

  • I don't like the fact that newly created collectives sort of "hijacked" existing questions and answers and that the "About" section of collectives is very misleading. For example:

    A screenshot of the Google Cloud collective's "About" section where it says "197.3k questions in collective" and "~247.3m people reached".

    This makes it sound like 197K questions were posted to that collective or by members of the collective, which is not true. Those questions were posted by regular members before the collective was even a thing. It also makes it seem like the collective (as some form of entity) has reached 247 million people in its (short) lifetime, which is also not true. I know what the numbers are meant to represent but that's not how they will be interpreted by most users (I think).

  • I also don't like the potential of those paying customers (at some point, one way or another) being able to affect the quality of new questions by influencing what's on-topic on the site (or well, in "their collective" that they are paying for).

Having said that, I don't think we should grant them the power to close/delete posts without them gaining experience on the site just like regular users. For one, there would be no obligation for them to curate the content; they would only have the option to use (or misuse) the tools.

If SE wants them to moderate content, well, make Collectives a Team-like thing where anyone can join but the content is completely separated from the public Q&A1. Obviously, that's not going to happen because the organizations want to capitalize on the existing base of Q&A and the "free labor" of regular users who are not part of the collective.

Perhaps the only consolation to me is that I don't really think this project will survive for so long. I could be 100% wrong; I'm not really a "business person" but I have a feeling that this is not something that will succeed in the long run.


1 Actually, I really like this idea. It would be something like a community forum/platform for companies and organizations but hosted on Stack Overflow. People can choose to opt-in (by joining the collective) or it can even be made public (but still separated from the regular Q&A content). In that case, in addition to questions that are on-topic on Stack Overflow, the companies would be completely free to allow support-like questions or any other types of questions they see fit.

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    "This makes it sound like 197K questions were posted to that collective or by members of the collective, which is not true." Well, if there are "197K" questions in the collective and there only be 11 answers in there that are recommended, that means there are thousands of answers that aren't too right? ;) 11 answers out of I dunno, 200k~ (if we assume 1 answer per question on average, which could be vastly wrong) is an awful recommendation rate. 🙃
    – Thom A
    Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 8:36
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NO.

What you're proposing is to grant companies that pay for it mod privileges in their respective tags, which they can assign to any random employee who doesn't need to have the slightest clue what SO is about. That's not a site I want to be part of.

The moderation problem can be solved way easier - if you don't want to act as an unpaid mod for a company, don't. Simply stop moderating in the affected tags. If enough people do so and it causes the tags to be overrun by garbage (*) then this is SE's problem and SE will need to find a way to deal with it.

(*) To quote Douglas Adams, "There is a theory which states that this has already happened"

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    I'm with you on just about anything but this: "If [...] it causes the tags to be overrun by garbage (*) then SE will need to find a way to deal with it." That doesn't match what I've experienced on SO. Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 13:03
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    @MisterMiyagi I'm not expecting SE to actually do something useful, I'm just saying it's their problem if the users decide to forgo moderating and the company complains about too much garbage in their collective. Edited a bit for clarity.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 13:08
  • I interpreted this meta post to suggest that Collective content would live outside of SO content and not be interactive w/ SO accounts; you'd need Collective accounts to interact with it (including voting). But maybe that's not what Makoto meant.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 13:14
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    @TylerH that's not how I read the post - the main request seems to be "I forcefully request that those collectives be made responsible for moderating and curating their own content". No words about decoupling it from normal Q/A, and I doubt that would work in the first place - who would sign up for the collective if they could just ask on "normal" SO? It definitely won't work with the current implementation, where existing tags were simply co-opted into the collective.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 13:20
  • @MisterMiyagi True. But, I would expect that it's in the best interest of the organization / collective owner to have the content moderated to a certain extent. So, they would either have to step it up or realize that the situation was better before they acquired the collective and decide to end the contract so things could get back to normal. I could be wrong though as no one can predict what the people making the decisions are thinking, most of the time.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 14:39
  • @TylerH No, I don't think that's what Makoto meant. I wish that it was like that though even though I know it's almost impossible for the reasons I mentioned in my answer.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Jun 24, 2021 at 14:41
12

moderation of any questions living within a collective

I think there is a misunderstanding of what a collective is. From what I understood, they are not closed-off spaces, they don't have their "own" set of questions. (And I hope it stays like that).

The questions are still just normal questions on Stack Overflow. They have "sponsored tags" on them, and they might be featured in one (or multiple?) collectives, but that's about it.

And so the community still decides on what questions are on-topic and moderates them accordingly. Sure, there might be friction on the question of what should be on-topic, but if anything, more moderation by the community can help to enforce our standards. Letting collectives moderate themselves would only lead to diverging standards and communities - where the rules "within a collective" are "a bit different". This might happen anyway, but only if the collective members put in some effort on their own, earning the right to moderate their space, not by just paying for it.

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    There's more to collectives. Certain users can be recognized as credible and companies can "recommend" answers. Some folks don't like this because it goes against the "community run" part of Stack and gives companies more power in choosing which answers are on the top. Community moderation is not the concern I think.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 0:29
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    @10Rep Indeed, those features woudl be more controversial than moderation I think (and while SE says recommendations don't change answer ordering, I kinda expect that to change at some point - but maybe that's actually a good thing if used responsibly). Also moderation of articles might be more problematic than that of questions.
    – Bergi
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 0:38

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