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Related to Let's clean up [postfix-mta] .

After looking through a few dozen questions in the course of the cleanup effort, I've had yet to see a single on-topic one, including new questions. As such, the "cleanup" started looking like it's not going to help in the long run, the core problem is rather with the tag itself.

Looking at the picture more closely, SEDE statistic confirms that 100% of the questions in this tag for the last 9 months at least are either off topic or not Postfix-specific.1 2(See the "tangentially relevant" section below for how those labelled in footnotes as "not Postfix-specific" are so.)

So, this tag is a net loss for the site as it is (to the point of being burnination-worthy) as it virtually exclusively attracts off topic and otherwise badly focused questions. (And the rename to isn't going to change that.) Since this includes new questions just as well, downvoting and closing them is ineffective.

Skimming through Postfix overview docs, it does have API for custom processing modules which is certainly on topic. Maybe there are other select on-topic bits.

  • E.g., @tripleee suggested "master.cf hooks" (whatever it's officially called). Writing/debugging them seems to be another on-topic area. (I'm not sure about the tag name for it since the docs don't ever mention "hooks".)

So I hereby suggest to rename or otherwise transform the tag to something representing the main on-topic area of Postfix, e.g. or , and split off others if and as needed.

This will act as a deterrent for askers of the off-topic questions: by having a tag that sounds "all things Postfix", we actively encourage people to ask questions about "all things Postfix", and by not having such a tag, be will discourage that.

The main objection received to this suggestion is that there are a number of topics tangentially related to Postfix that involve programming. However, at closer inspection, all of these suggested topics are either off topic or don't really warrant the "general catch-all Postfix tag". In some cases, Postfix could be mentioned in the preamble for perspective, but the question proper will be better off without it.

(Also keep in mind the hypothetical nature of many of these suggested topics: there are actually no questions on them in the linked statistics.)

  • Using Postfix as an e-mail server via standard protocols from a program:

    • Use , etc because these are the technologies actually used by the user's code, and they are not Postfix-specific.
    • If the problem is with the user's server, or a mail provider's server, the question to resolve this is off topic.
      • On topic, we can only say as an answer (and make canonical answers to close it as a duplicate of) that this is a problem with a server.
  • Editing e-mail messages as text

    • Likewise, , etc are the actual technologies that the code is working with.
  • Compiling Postfix itself with autotools or whatnot

    • if the question is about intimate, undocumented details of the build process (e.g. required build settings for an environment not covered by build docs), the devteam is in a better position to answer these.
    • otherwise, tag with compilation tools and be prepared that answers may not go beyond the documented procedures and settings
      • Strictly speaking, could be used because compilation instructions are technically a part of the product's public interface (i.e. an interface to 3rd-party build toolchains). But since this interface is generally considered less "public", it's a stretch and a slippery slope into the aforementioned customer support territory
  • E-mail automation tasks:

    • Such questions virtually always ask about all aspects of such a task and are thus off topic. Only the bits specifically about writing custom scripts are on topic -- so a chance of a correctly-scoped question on this topic is rather slim
      • if it interacts with Postfix API directly, tag with those API
        • if the problem is not in the interaction itself, Postfix API is even irrelevant to be issue so handle it like the next item
      • if it interacts with Postfix indirectly, it's not really using Postfix API, so the question should rather show what the problematic part directly sees and be tagged with the technologies it directly uses.
        • asking about the entire chain of the custom scripts would be tagged with the Postfix API but will most likely be too broad, so the chain should rather be reduced to an MCVE
  • These also fall under "e-mail automation":

    • Receiving event notifications
      • Only implementing your part of the interaction protocol is on topic => tag with the protocol or the API it's a part of
    • Generating configuration files
      • Only the generation logic itself is on topic, the resulting coniguration file contents are not => tag with the tools used

As you can probably see, in most of these cases, the "Postfix" tag even distracts the asker from the parts that they really should be focusing on. So not only doesn't help, but prevents them from asking a focused question!


1Counting deleted questions, in the last 6 months, 24 of 31 questions are closed or deleted; of the 7 remaining ones, 1 has been deleted and 1 put on hold since the SEDE's snapshot was made; 2 more (1,2) are off topic, and the remaining three are not specific to Postfix but are rather about MIME, S/MIME and IMAP. Thanks to the cleanup efforts, we can think that the picture for the last 6 months is the "real" picture in the sense that the vast majority of closeworthy questions have been dealt with.

2After the 6 months cut-off mark, "all dealt with" ceases to be true but the statistics is all the same: of all 10 unclosed questions between 2018-02 and 2017-12 inclusive, 8 are off topic as server configuration and/or diagnostics, 1 has been retagged after the SEDE snapshot and 1 is about MIME.

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  • "So it seems that only the API part of Postfix is on topic..." - Postfix is written in C. Autotools configuration before compilation would be on-topic. And if someone were extending functionality or fixing bugs then the tasks would likely be on-topic, too. But getting users to make the distinction between on-topic Postfix and off-topic-Postifx is a non-starter. New users still are not getting the message Stack Overflow is a site for programming and development questions.
    – jww
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 8:17
  • @jww the idea is not to "[get] users to make the distinction between on-topic and off-topic". The idea is to "gently but firmly" nudge them towards correct behavior (and away from incorrect one) by making correct behavior easy and incorrect one hard. By showing a user a tag that sounds relevant to their question, we encourage them to ask the question and by showing that we don't have a tag for their topic we discourage that. Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 12:03
  • If it works, then it should be applied to a number of tags, like openssl (library questions and command questions) and docker (docker exists specifically for API but it is overrun with the dev-op garbage like fixing configuration files). In the past I proposed an openssl-command tag to classify the off-topic garbage that was subsequently shot down by the community.
    – jww
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 12:16
  • @jww If those tags are as problematic, why not. But this needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis. E.g. "software tools commonly used by programmers" are on topic. Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 12:22

1 Answer 1

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I would regard this as similar to , , -- it's useful as a secondary tag for programming questions where the thing you want to program is Postfix, in one way or another.

Common questions which are tangentially related to Postfix often involve email automation tasks like creating your own autoresponder infrastructure or mail archiving system. These are not typically or commonly related to the Postfix API per se, but they definitely require domain knowledge about Postfix or at least SMTP servers in general.

Your characterization that all Postfix-related programming questions are about Postfix configuration is simply false. In the linked question, I present an informal assessment that 90% of the current Postfix questions are off-topic because they are about general computing (i.e. configuration, operation, etc) but the tag contains a fair amount of questions which are in fact programming related. In my experience, from reviewing hundreds or perhaps even thousands of Postfix questions, most remaining questions ask about various ways to interface with Postfix -- how to successfully send email, how to automate generation of a configuration file, or how to get notified when email arrives, etc -- but rarely involve the internals of Postfix or its API.

Improving the tag to dissuade people from asking general Postfix support questions is probably a good idea, but I think the proposed is too narrow.

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  • "where the thing you want to program is Postfix, in one way or another" -- that's the issue: Postfix can't be programmed AFAICS, so any such question is definitely off topic. Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 11:00
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    Sure it can, it has a bunch of hooks in master.cf where you can plug in your own piece of software. But additionally, many questions are about automation around Postfix where you need to understand how an incoming SMTP connection results in a message being stored somewhere.
    – tripleee
    Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 11:01
  • Anyway, if you are fundamentally opposed to things which are not programming languages, tools, or platforms, why do we accept grub or cisco or kali-linux (I know, we don't!) or csv or wordpress...?
    – tripleee
    Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 11:03
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    Don't put words in my mouth, I'm not "fundamentally opposed to things which are not programming languages". Practice has shown that the postfix tag is prone to attracting off-topic questions about general Postfix use. And the rename to postfix-mta isn't going to change that. So I'm seeking to fix that by finding the specific pieces of Postfix that are on topic and encouraging people to only ask questions about them -- by creating specialized tags and burninating the general tag. Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 11:11
  • Specifically, writing/debugging the hooks is on topic and can be tagged with e.g. postfix-mta-hook-api. Just using hooks that are confirmed to work okay is off topic: a correct MCVE for such a question will exclude all Postfix parts and only include what the problematic code directly sees: where it gets it from will be irrelevant to the problem. The question will be tagged with whatever tech the problematic code uses. Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 11:20
  • Could you please give me some reference link about the hooks? I can't readily find any relevant docs so can't give a good tag suggestion or a reference link for a question update. Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 11:24
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    postfix.org/master.5.html documents the general facility. "All daemons specified here must speak a Postfix-internal protocol." I don't think you will get a lot of recognition for anything except master.cf (maybe propose postfix-master.cf but then people will ask about what to put into that file?)
    – tripleee
    Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 11:59
  • Funny note: there's nothing more inherent to programming that the internet, I mean, we look for solutions to our programming problems there. Yet that very tag was removed because it was a cesspool of questions.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 12:57
  • Tangentially, the postfix-mta tag is just a very small symptom of the problem of tags with poor content. I tried to bring this up once upon a time in meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/306006/… but it didn't really go anywhere at the time. I don't think tag disambiguation can help in the general case, and trying to remove postfix-mta is misdirected when there are monster tags like centos or apache which have exactly the same problem but question volumes orders of magnitude larger.
    – tripleee
    Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 13:01
  • @tripleee One problem at a time. While company tags are burninated as a matter of fact, Shog9 suggests reactive and case-by-case approach and I agree with him (this time :-)). Clarifying tag names is actually a way to discourage off-topic questions -- way better than "constant attention" because it works automatically and systemically, by denying people the means to ask them. Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 14:03
  • @ivan_pozdeev The premise that the rename isn't going to change anything is completely wrong. The number of off-topic questions which were present when the tag was named [postfix] was too high compared to those which were present in the original [postfix-mta]. Let us not get rid off tags just because users post off topic questions, if that was the case, most of the top tags would have to be removed.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 17:05
  • @BhargavRao Your reasoning doesn't hold water. "The number of off-topic questions... when the tag was named [postfix] was too high compared to... the original [postfix-mta]." only shows that users with Postfix questions preferred [postfix] to [postfix-mta] all other things equal (which isn't too surprising). Now that there's only one tag for Postfix, which one do you think they will prefer? What happened that would change the experience for a user typing a Postfix question and typing "postfix" into tags? I see nothing. Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 18:01
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    The tag now gets changed into "postfix-mta", as they type. Some users do notice and care.
    – tripleee
    Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 18:34
  • @tripleee How do (and why should) they care? It was about all things Postfix before, it's about all things Postfix now, it appears after typing the same word. What's the difference? (Just to be clear, I'm only talking about Postfix the mail server, not about the split-off postfix-notation.) Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 19:05
  • @tripleee also see an update addressing your concerns about "tangentially relevant" questions. Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 19:08

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