-48

I respect and appreciate the attempts being made to make SO more 'friendly'. I certainly have felt unwelcome on more than one occasion. But honestly, I think it's a lost cause. The smartest people are generally, well...rude.

Let me see if I can explain. I spend a lot of time researching the biology behind neuro-developmental conditions like Autism, ADHD, Asperger's, etc. And over the years, I have noticed that there is a strong correlation between high intelligence and conditions such as high-functioning Autism (like Asperger's).

Clinically, people with Asperger's often appear to lack empathy and act and speak in ways that don't consider other people's feelings. And their above average intelligence, increases the chances that such individuals will wind up in engineering or science fields. I can think of endless examples of super smart people (Einstein, Taleb, Semmelweis, Newton, Zuckerberg) - who were/are notoriously unpleasant personalities.

What's my point? I'm saying that I believe a good percentage of SO's smartest contributors are going to be perceived as rude, and there's just no way around it.

Are we collectively wired to be 'rude'?

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    I must say I find all implications here rather unpleasant -- the claim that smart people are generally rude, the hazarding of a collective diagnosis of "a good percentage of SO's smartest contributors", and the typecasting of people affected by the conditions you mention as unpleasant jerks.
    – duplode
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 0:09
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    Just as a side note (I'm an evolutionary biology teacher): Darwin was not even close of being unpleasant. He was notoriously reserved and a bit shy, specially at the end of his life (for instance, being an atheist at that time/place didn't improve his social life), but he always very polite and extremely civil in his relationships. Also, Einstein was not that unpleasant compared to a bunch other famous physicists (Newton comes to mind). By that measure, he was probably friendly! Even after WWII, when he became very famous, he never denied talking to students, answering questions etc... Commented May 16, 2018 at 0:25
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    "but he was always very polite", sorry for the mistake. Finally, regarding Semmelweis, If I were locked into an asylum and beaten to death just because I tried to tell people to wash their hands, I'd be anti-social too! Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the correlation doesn't exist - it can perfectly be the case. I just disagree, if I may, with the examples you chose. Commented May 16, 2018 at 0:34
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    So... I appreciate the correlative statements but from a limited understanding, in general, people who are on the Autism Spectrum are also often taught or at least encouraged to learn how to more constructively interact with others. If these users were as rude in their workplace, surely they would have difficulty holding a job, for example, regardless of their intelligence. Can you take this into consideration in your question? Smart people don't have to be rude any more than average people have to be anything else. If we have guidelines to follow, surely these smart people can learn?
    – Catija
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 0:35
  • 3
    This question has a foot on this site and a foot on psychology.stackexchange.com. I must say I'm impressed by the lack of hostility under it, maybe we're progressing. These types of posts usually bring out controversy and high emotion.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 1:18
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    @Tracy I realise you didn't use that word, and appreciate your attempts at qualifying your descriptions, but, between "appear to lack empathy and act and speak in ways that don't consider other people's feelings" and "notoriously unpleasant personalities", that was the impression I got. I also find diagnosis-at-a-distance, even when admittedly conjectural, to be problematic more often than not. (See also Catija's comment, which is more objective and less driven by gut feelings than mine.)
    – duplode
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 1:29
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    What I want to know is why we should have to put up with it? It seems like a cop out. "The people who are smart are like this, so it's inevitable, struggling only makes it worse"... why? Why do we have to be OK with alienating the people here to get help? Surely we can all work together to discourage rude behavior and encourage welcoming behavior? Why is it OK to tell people "your question/answer is stupid?" or "This is so easy a child could do it"... These things are easily avoided with a bit of gentle redirection, editing, and comment deletion. Surely this isn't much to ask?
    – Catija
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 1:30
  • 4
    Note: you should really be more careful with your titles. You are inviting an answer that affirms your question with a massive list of abusive and timewasting questions from OP's: homework dumps, requirement dumps, contrived code from textbooks, live exam questions, mega-duplicates, downloaded/copied code that the poster does not understand, basic syntax fails etc etc. All such questions are rude and abusive, there are a lot of them, and that can be seen as a 'plainly yes' reply to your question. Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:49
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    To those who think this question is not seeking community input... please note that it is seeking input, has garnered 8 answers at this point, 3 of which were from moderators, and is attempting to reflect on what aspect (if any) of the community contributes to the perceived or real claim of rudeness. Disagreeing with the premise is not a reason to close this question.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 6:27
  • 4
    I'm voting to reopen this question because come on, @Yvette. You just sang praises of my answer in chat not long ago! Which I spent like two hours on! Surely it and the other answers have done at least an acceptable job discussing those assumptions?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 7:06
  • 3
    @BoltClock I cast the 5th vote! LOL and I do think it's a hella in depth discussion, that... I'm not sure is on topic for the site. But that's my one vote as a site member (not a mod) as it was the 5th and I'm letting it run with what the community wants. I do think your answer is great, I just am not keen on the question. Ambivalent.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 7:10
  • 8
    @YvetteColomb upvotes mean: Yes, we're wired to be rude (and yes, I have a mental condition). Downvotes mean: Nah, we're fine. I'm totally sane. Answers that cover the broad positions that are possible on this topic should be voted on accordingly. Gives us hard data on the self assessment capability of the regulars here ...
    – rene
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 7:16
  • 3
    It often seems to be forgotten that engineers/developers do not solely deal with issues of machinery. Pleasant social relationships with other engineers, managers, clients and customers are either very useful or an actual job requirement. You cannot shove someone onto a plane and send them off to a customer site if they have problems with general social interaction, for whatever reason, whether specifcally diagnosed as an illness or not. Commented May 16, 2018 at 7:45
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    @ShadowWizard Racist? What? Race wasn't mentioned. What are you talking about?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 23:22
  • 4
    @ShadowWizard "Bigotry" (adjective: "bigoted") and "prejudice" (adjective: "prejudiced") are catch-all words that more or less describe the general concept that racism, sexism, homophobia, sectarianism, and prejudice against the mentally ill are all narrower examples of. Among progressives, particularly American ones, it's seemingly also common to use the word "ignorance" as if it meant "bigotry" (e.g. reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/hdfgw/…) - but this usage of "ignorant" hasn't yet been recorded in any dictionaries that I know of.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 10:32

8 Answers 8

48

"Blame it on non-empathetic autistics" is kind of a popular meme right now. Most HackerNews discussions of Stack Overflow seem to contain at least one thread that follows this train of thought; usually following the pattern "SO users are just autistic" -> "hey, don't blame autistic people" -> "I have lots of autistic friends and they're all rude, you autistic jackass!"

I think we should skip that. First, because it's really not very nice to blame autistic people. But second, because the premise is flawed: current thinking seems to point to difficulty communicating rather than stunted emotional intelligence as the primary factor influencing this perception, which also suggests that intelligence may be normally distributed if communication difficulties are taken into account.

Communication is hard for most of us. Blaming rudeness on those who struggle with it the most doesn't make it any easier.

The nature of rudeness

I think we have to be very, very careful with how we define the problem in these discussions.

How rudeness is expressed is a decidedly cultural phenomenon. Throwing around vulgarity and personal comments can be a much bigger faux pas in some cultures than in others; even what is considered vulgar varies widely. As a site welcoming members from around the world, we have to keep this in mind lest we ascribe motives to certain sub-groups that do not accurately reflect the intent of the participants.

This is why our version of a code of conduct - the "be nice" policy - focuses on personal goals rather than striving to be an etiquette guide. Whether you're striving to improve your interactions with others, or concerned about an interaction that you've observed, your goal should be to work together with others to learn and share what you've learned - not establish an acceptable level of mistreatment or find justification for shaming others for their failings.

Discussions like this one are a reminder that we're doing something profoundly unnatural by even attempting to make Stack Overflow work - we're trying to allow people with different abilities, different expectations, and different cultures to work together. We're... Essentially building Babel. Of course it will be fraught with misunderstanding and difficulty!

The nature of niceness

We must be careful when we define the solutions as well.

Back where I grew up, we have this thing called "Minnesota Nice". I'd sum it up thusly: "the only thing worse than a conflict between people is drawing attention to a conflict between people". I've known people who've brooded on some slight for decades, never letting it go and never confronting it, letting it subtly poison every interaction between them.

That's probably not what we're aiming for here.

Then there's "forum nice", where you can say whatever you want as long as you follow some (possibly unwritten) set of rules pertaining to how you say it. So, never ever criticize even if asked for feedback, but go right ahead and advise sick people to drink bleach.

Yeah... I don't think that's what we're after either.

And then there's the sort of niceness I think you're talking about, the one where cognitive scientists of various flavors argue endlessly about nature/nurture and whether things like love and empathy are innate or social constructs.

This is probably not within our reach.

A few months back, I buried a good friend, one of the nicest people I've had the pleasure to meet. He wasn't nice to look at; after a nasty accident he had the sort of face that parents tend to assume would scare away their kids, while mostly just being scared themselves (kids loved him). He wasn't always particularly nice to be around; once he threw me into a door when I tried to break up a fight between him and another friend (we all calmed down and talked it out). But he was nice in a way that few can manage: he treated everyone the same, regardless of class, color or creed. If you needed help, food, shelter, or just someone to talk to, he'd open his door and welcome you in. He often had a rough time of it; folks took advantage of his generosity, stole from him, abandoned him when he could've used a hand... But he never gave up, and never changed until he drew his last breath. His was a niceness stripped of artifice, as honest and unwavering as it was imperfect.

This, I think, we can all strive for.

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    Dear God. If I could manage to be a tenth as eloquent as you are, I would be... Yeah that... Thank you...
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:06
  • 2
    Sorry about your friend, we need more people like that - minus the throwing into wall bit. But onto the definition of rudeness one thing - people need to quite arguing over one basic fact - insulting people is rude in all cultures. If is this over rudeness that is being aggressively stomped on. Followed by the more subtle - yet quantifiable - arguing with people. State the case and then walk away. Don't enter into a 10 comment long debate.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:08
  • I really like the introduction to this. Blaming any minority group of our users for a problem stated to be effecting the entire exchange will get us nowhere.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 7:04
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    I may only have ~2 years of SE, but I do a lot of reading of meta-things. My start was not very good here, as can be seen by my early answers. But I learnt what's expected (and I am still learning). The niceness thing was the one thing that always bothered me. But now, with all that's going on, I see one thing clearly: The last paragraph of this answer is the mood and notion I will remember at all times while on the site. Everytime I saw someone (in comments etc.) behave in such a way, everything got better, including question quality. Running out of characters, so I can't include links.
    – ItamarG3
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 9:35
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    Most importantly, insulting people is rude in our culture, @Yvette - the one we've collectively built here on Stack Overflow. I don't take my shoes off in my own house, but if I visit someone else's and they glance meaningfully at the pile of shoes next to the door... I damn well better not have holes in my socks. For good and for ill, we do have our own culture here, and we will enforce it - so best make sure it's a good one.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 19:15
  • ""Blame it on non-empathetic autistics" is kind of a popular meme right now." - 5+ years later, I am hearing the same argument from the same people, who lob the same insults and mockery while claiming to favour empathy and kindness. Just as I heard it 5+ years prior to this post in only slightly modified form. Almost a year before this post, the same attitude got a talented Google engineer fired and hung out to dry, and got Wired to blatantly misrepresent his position as well as the underlying science. It is not a "meme"; it is a harmful political movement. Commented Nov 23, 2023 at 4:31
33

Clinically, people with Asperger's often appear to lack empathy and act and speak in ways that don't consider other people's feelings.

This is something many people close to me have told me over the years, something I've lost close friends to over the years, and something I've (willingly) obtained a clinical diagnosis for because it's been so detrimental to my well-being, so I'm pretty much a poster example of this. Don't get me wrong; I'm not upset or indeed triggered by this at all. You're simply stating an observation and getting a conversation going about it, so I thought I'd share my personal experiences. I respect the clinical definition of "trigger" (phobias, post-traumatic stress) and while this is a difficult topic, it's by no means triggering for me.

Other people have made it clear that generalizing all the users who are rude (or perceived as rude) to have social/communication disorders is not constructive as it hurts not only those who don't have them, but also those who do, but I wanted to make sure everyone understands that your observations and statements do have some merit, generalizations aside. Autism is a real disability, there are people who struggle to integrate with society on a daily basis because of it, and the effects of their struggles are felt not only by themselves but also those around them.

Do I speak for everyone on the autism spectrum? Absolutely not; it's called a spectrum for a reason. Does a non-trivial percentage of those on the spectrum present similarly? No reason for me to doubt that. The entire point of autism is that you're not wired quite the same way as others are (with communication being just one of many aspects of life that are affected), which often causes friction for everyone involved, so it's no surprise that that's one of the prevailing presenting factors. What makes it a spectrum is how these traits are presented, and how situations play out as a result. Some come off as eccentric but still perfectly fine, others rude, ranging from an occasional nuisance to plain insufferable.

Please note that being wired to interact differently is not to be conflated with being wired to be rude. They are distinct enough that someone could be wired both ways (which would be most unfortunate), but people tend to be wired one or the other if at all, and there is neither correlation nor causation between the two.

All that said, the keyword in your statement is "appear"; you've probably heard the counter-argument that people on the spectrum are in fact more empathetic than others, they just have extraordinary difficulty expressing it. But it doesn't matter how much I internalize my empathy; as long as I struggle to communicate this empathy effectively, of course I'll come off as anything but empathetic. This, I feel, is the crux of the matter.

However, it is true that I do forget to empathize sometimes. Something I noticed a while back is that when I experience what some call hyper-empathy, it's usually involuntary, whereas when I empathize with another person at a more controlled (or "normal") level, it's usually a conscious act. Hyper-empathy is easy to internalize and difficult to communicate effectively; typical empathy is just plain difficult on both counts, because, yes, I'm not wired to put myself in other people's shoes automatically as others seem to be able to do. Sometimes it really just doesn't occur to me to consider other people's feelings, which leads me to speaking honestly but not tactfully, and so on. So, again, this does add credence to what you've stated. And this is something I sincerely and profusely apologize to everyone (and perhaps myself) for.

As my first paragraph implies, this is something I've been well aware of for as long as I've lived and continue to struggle with on a daily basis. I've been getting professional help as well as learning on my own, but even today the only ones who think I've improved are others — when I look at my own comment history (at least up to April '18 anyway), I feel like I've only gotten from bad to worse, and I start to think that others are white lying straight to my face just to make me feel better (and, yes, despite appearing to lack empathy I do know how it feels to have your statements of encouragement called into question, so I don't go around accusing my friends directly of white lying to me however much my intrusive thoughts insist) — I don't know if you'd like to try to convince me otherwise.

In summary, know that I'm constantly making every effort to not come off as rude, even though I often fail, sometimes so spectacularly as to seem like I'm not even trying (and maybe sometimes I don't try, but that doesn't mean I never do), and sometimes when others think I've succeeded anyway, even I don't think I have. It's all a whirlwind of emotions and it's not easy in the slightest. But I do try.

What's my point? I'm saying that I believe a good percentage of SO's smartest contributors are going to be perceived as rude, and there's just no way around it.

This is what some people would call "defeatist". Guess what? I'm like that approximately 70% of the time, so I really don't blame you! In fact, I empathize (again!) with that statement. There will always be differences, and there will always be friction. The question then becomes how much both parties are willing to accommodate, if not embrace, one another's differences and difficulties.

That is to say, if anyone is going to work under the assumption that we have a social/communication disorder that inherently puts us on a frequency just detached enough from the frequency others are on to cause this much friction with one another, at the very least my hope is that they'll try to be patient with, understanding of, and compassionate for our communicating difficulties and forgive us even as we come off as rude to them, instead of throwing their hands up and ostracizing us just because we lose some or most of the battles that we're constantly fighting (and will continue to fight for the remainder of our lifetimes — there is no permanent victory here).

The following sentence, meant to follow the last, is one anyone could reasonably construe as being rude on purpose, but I'm adding it in a light quote anyway because I like the irony that comes with it (please don't take this as a personal slight, this is just to get readers thinking):

"After all, the assertion that people on the autism spectrum lack empathy must imply that those outside it have it in abundance, so that shouldn't be such a tall order for them, right?"

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    It should also be noted clearly that you are honest, seek feedback and ways for self improvement - which (regardless of any diagnosis) is the cornerstone for any individual discovery
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:09
  • @Yvette Colomb: That sounds awfully familiar.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:10
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    Fantastic analysis backed up by deeply personal observations. Thank you for sharing this, @BoltClock!
    – Shog9
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:16
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    I can relate to everything you've said. What do you think prompted my obsessive research into Autism and related neuro-developmental conditions? I also find that my obsessive attention to detail is enough to inadvertently offend people at times. No surprise there - OCD is another common bedfellow in this arena.
    – Tracy
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:50
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    I have never found you to be rude, nor do I find your comments rude (I read May and April). Your level of experience lends itself towards narrating as a teacher, and that leads to a lot of instruction in your comments. In no way do I believe that style to contribute to anything negative. If there are problems we as a community need to address, I don't think this is where we should look.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:51
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    @Travis J: You'll need to look further back, up to the last six months at least. I've made a very concerted effort to be nice since the blog post, and I guess I'm encouraged that it's translated into results. And it's not as bad in recent months as it was a few years ago... but I do still slip, not frequently but not seldom either.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:53
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    @Tracy: Ah, that explains ;) Nice to know we're not alone.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:55
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    To be honest, while I did entertain the notion of reading a few months worth of comments since you mentioned it here, I have been fairly active at the site for (jeez, this long?) the better part of a decade and you have been fairly outspoken the entire time. Even though we haven't met personally, and we haven't ever really had a direct conversation, I feel like I have read so much of your discourse that I have this kind of noble persona envisioned for you. Actually reading six months of your comments probably wouldn't change that.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:58
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    Could you link an example page of your comment history that shows some rude comments? I've flipped through a few pages from about a year back, but can't find anything that I'd consider rude - if anything, your comments seem to be consistently constructive and frequently include niceties.
    – Nat
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:59
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    @Travis J, Nat: This is why everyone keeps asking me not to be so hard on myself. You're right. I ought to take pride in the comments I've posted even over the years, let alone the last six months. Still I've already managed to sample over a dozen comments from March alone that I could've worded much better (some of which I actually did, such as this, which I still think is incredibly harsh, though that's on an answer that's deleted). Perhaps they weren't outright rude, but looking back there was quite a bit of exasperation in many of them.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 6:22
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    @Nat: Here's the half of the aforementioned comments from March that aren't deleted and are still visible to all users - they're dripping with sarcasm or outright rudeness and it's alarming that I still let slip this often: stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/85135026 stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/85152057 stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/85677854 stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/85697362 stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/85698570 stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/86059008
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 6:44
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    When I look at my own comment history [..] I feel like I've only gotten from bad to worse. Meh, from a Dutch perspective you're doing fine ... ;)
    – rene
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 7:37
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    There's an experience I have every now and then - when I get into an internet argument after somebody on Stack Exchange has pissed me off - where I'll post a bunch of comments while angry, and in my head they feel like they're really biting comments - barely-concealed expressions of total contempt for the person I'm arguing with. And a while later, I'll think, damn, I was such a dick. I didn't need to express myself like that. And then I go and read the supposedly hostile comments and... they're fine? They seemed hostile because I was saying them in a hostile voice in my own head, [1/2]
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 0:17
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    @Mark Amery: This one's pretty scathing. It was from over a year ago, so that's at least a year in which I've hopefully made progress.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 6:58
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    @BoltClock - "Everyone loses sight of congeniality from time to time. How you recover is up to you." -Shog9♦. Don't beat yourself up too much about the past man, it isn't worth it. Clearly you benefited from having reflected on what it means to be "welcoming" at Stack Overflow, take that progress and be proud of yourself for it.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 7:22
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No, disagree.

This is nature/nurture in a professional, technical environment, and nurture wins.

The tools used in software development lack empathy and compassion. If you let the seemingly-endless streams of compiler/linker errors, build fails, runtime faults and spec deviations get to you mentally, the machinery and tools will drive you insane.

If you want to see the antipathy of warm and fuzzy understanding, try sitting in on a progress meeting when everyone else is trying to deflect blame for failures to meet milestones.

This is the environment into which software developers are immersed. Lying, being economical with the truth, whatever you call it, will get you nowhere. Ruthlessly examining evidence and following where it leads is the ONLY way to get the bugs out. Fighting, (yes), your corner in the meetings gets you still employed/contracted next week. Sitting there meekly, and hoping that a wave of compassion will overtake the wave of political and managerial battles is hopeless and will get you marginalized, at best.

When faced with a problem, being as honest and accurate as you can is the only way to make forward progress.

The skilled and professional engineers who put in a days' work know, from experience, that empathy and compassion during a working day of battling with machines will win nothing. Deliverable product does not come from the 'Love your Compiler' movement.

Most software engineers are socially skillful enough to leave that facet of their lives aside once they walk to the subway or drive off the office car park. Outside of work, they are generally a friendly bunch and, indeed, in the office/lab, are generally approachable when not engaged with contentious technical, managerial and professional issues.

Developers help each other out all the time at work - if one engineer has a problem with interface X, the author of X will invariably help out. What never happens is that the same question/problem is raised over, and over again, every day, for years. Developers fix their documentation to try to ensure that such continual misunderstanding stops and, if it does not, will have no problem with raising the issue forcefully at the progress meetings.

You don't have to be 'smart' to appear to lack empathy and act and speak in ways that don't consider other people's feelings. You just have to be a skilled and experienced software engineer trying to solve a problem - they know that objectivity and honesty is the only way forward.

The skilled developers know how to get a programming problem solved, and wasting time on unnecessary language is not an effective tool.

Abusive attacks directed against people are also unnecessary language, and so are not effective. Engineers know how to cuss, and the profane language often directed at servers, compilers, cables, routers and other sundry equipment just causes wry smiles. Such language when directed at machinery is a personal steam blowoff - it's not done to try and influence the tools: obviously they know that the processors and software are not listening and don't care.

Such language is not usually directed against other developers or managers because voicing it in meetings/whatever doesn't help with making forward progress. It doesn't get the bugs out, it doesn't get them raises or contract extensions. It's a bad tool.

Please, everyone, try to understand that these engineers know how to make soulless tools and machinery do their bidding and how to make deficiencies in their operation go away.

If that is not what you want, don't ask them.

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    I agree with much of this - it's just wasting time on unnecessary language != politeness. One can be objective and professional without being rude. Advice doesn't need to come with a hug, neither does it need to come with an insult. I want to upvote it, but it's just not hitting this on point.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:34
  • 1
    @YvetteColomb, a problem is that what is perceived as an insult can vary with the receiver.
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:36
  • This is a near-perfect question for you to finally post a fully fleshed out formulation of this stance :) I still disagree on a core point -- I don't think the link between person-to-machine and person-to-person interactions is so inexorably tight -- but, in any case, professional culture seems to be a better place to look for explanations of this matter than personal health history.
    – duplode
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:44
  • 2
    @StephenRauch: "a problem is that what is perceived as an insult can vary with the receiver." Yes, but there are plenty of things which most people can agree are clearly insulting. Just because something is subjective doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:10
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    Nice edit Martin :)
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:32
  • 1
    @YvetteColomb it was made in response to your comment, I was not sure whether to credit you with it directly, not wanting to appear rude in any way:) Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:56
  • @NicolBolas, was not trying to say that rudeness can not have an objective measure. Just that the rudeness measure probably should be more objective than subjective based on the reception of the receiver.
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 6:22
  • 1
    @NicolBolas that is exactly what I keep trying to say, cultural differences aside, we can all agree insults are rude, followed by arguing in comments, they frequently lead to trouble. Two basics that can be avoided. And for those who make snarky comments and then act all coy "what did I do wrong" I swear - this needs these kind of games need to stop. It's ridiculous that there can be so much debate over the subtleties that the obvious is ignored.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 6:25
  • 3
    "Such language when directed at machinery is a personal steam blowoff - it's not done to try and influence the tools" But what about the printer? Commented May 16, 2018 at 8:55
  • @AndréKool lol. There is a lot of finely-powdered carbon about. Wait until the building is empty and arrange for ignition... Commented May 16, 2018 at 16:50
  • Good point! Do you have any empirical evidence to support your claim? We all have our opinions, but it's difficult to escape our own biases. That's what I love about science, it imparts an objectivity to our theories.
    – Tracy
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 8:09
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I'm going to take umbrage at the fact that you're essentially presuming that a few of us have a disorder which determines how empathetic we're capable of being. I don't doubt that there may be some truth to what you're saying in general, but I'd rather get a prognosis from my doctor if that's really necessary.

That said, this kind of overlooks the other side.

There are vastly more people asking questions of experts than there are experts. An expert's patience can be taxed only so far before there are clear and concise signs of snark and hostility. This is true of most anyone; if you tolerate certain behaviors for long enough, there will come a point in which you decide that "enough is enough" and you ask more cut-to-the-chase questions, or give what you believe to be witty snarkiness.

But then there are the people who don't care.

Take this example.

enter image description here

I never engaged with the OP in conversation or dialog as I figured it'd be best if I didn't. I still got abuse hurled at me.

Suffice to say, I'm not wholly convinced that there's nothing we can do about rudeness around here. It's just very important that you have a clear and concise definition of "rude" before you can start eliminating it.

15
  • 1
    While I might agree with your point, I have to ask, how does this address (what I perceive to be the OP's point) that statistically speaking many that hang around here are likely to be perceived as rude simply because they see the world differently and not because (as the post implied,) they are bigoted or misogynistic??
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 2:59
  • You usually write well on meta, but I agree with @StephenRauch this has missed the mark of the question. After the first paragraph, it reads like a defence to Jay's blog. A continuation from your first paragraph combined with user fatigue, would have been more relevant to the question - which proposes much of core community is mentally disordered and incapable of being polite. It's not to point "look how bad these questioners are" that is deflecting the impetus of the question. We all know everyone on the site is capable of being rude - which actually disproves the question.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 3:13
  • 5
    @StephenRauch: "are likely to be perceived as rude simply because they see the world differently" That is a very... odd way of summarizing what the OP said. Because that doesn't seem to be what they said at all. They said that smart people tend to be neuroatypical, and neuroatypical people tend to be perceived as rude. "not because (as the post implied,) they are bigoted or misogynistic" And that's not even what the blog post stated or implied. You seem to be taking both posts, not as what they are, but as what you'd like them to be. Commented May 16, 2018 at 3:50
  • 9
    @StephenRauch: That view point is incredibly one-sided and ignores a lot of what some of long-time SO users have long held. I don't deny that a lot of us see the world differently. What I don't appreciate in the post is that it ignores the other side of the argument, in which the very people who do complain about us being "rude" can often be overtly rude.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 3:51
  • 5
    It's also a post without really a solution...kinda just telling us that there's no hope to improve anything. Medium exists for that kind of outlet IMO.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 3:51
  • @Makoto c'mon, you are better than that.. (last comment) I do know how you feel, it has been an exhausting few weeks.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:30
  • @Makoto, Really? If the post does not solve world peace, then it is wrong? I think we read way too much, into way too little, and then things explode. This is not healthy.
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:31
  • 4
    @StephenRauch: It's not that. It's just that the post isn't really offering much of a discussion outside of stringing together a correlation between high degrees of intelligence and certain disorders, and telling us that this is why Stack Overflow is hostile. It's a talking point but there's not much to really talk about, now is there? It doesn't offer a solution or much room for a solution. It's just letting us know that this is one (possible) reason why the site is hostile. I don't appreciate having someone who doesn't even know me diagnose me from the comfort of the Internet.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:43
  • 3
    @YvetteColomb: Sure, it's been an exhausting week. If I were in a better mind I'd probably have voted to close this as it doesn't really inspire a dialog or conversation. It feels like it's a red herring; a think piece; an opinion article which could do with some citations to medical journals. The message is loud and clear: there's a problem here at Stack Overflow. Yeah, I get it. I've seen it. I've experienced it. Anyone else up for taking a stab at fixing it as opposed to...whatever this became??
    – Makoto
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:45
  • 1
    @Makoto I also was wondering if it's on topic, I am concerned as to the nature of such a question and it postulates that our core users have mental disorders (albeit in a polite way) and therefore the site will always be ruse and that this excuses any rudeness on the part of the site (a terrible assertion!). The problem is, we need to take these questions face on, as we are under scrutiny and the best way is to face that scrutiny with facts. Easier said than done and I know that! I suspect this type of post is not going away for a while.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:49
  • 8
    Saying that core users of any site have some kind of mental disorder - irrespective of its intent - is not inspiring in my mind for a good sense of dialog. It's not even a fair criticism in my mind. But y'know, it's late and I elected to answer the question when I probably should've just...not. I'm going to withdraw from this one.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:52
  • @Makoto, but please know that a discussion of a population in no way makes a statement about an individual. What was potentially offensive about the post was that it implied that we (you and I) were bigoted misogynists because somebody felt like we were. But I read the OP's question as maybe there are other explanations as to why someone might be offended by their interaction with the regulars here. And that reason might be more due to an impedance mismatch than due to some sort of overt discrimination.
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:55
  • 1
    If there is an impedance mismatch, it's the OP's who ran the cable and terminated it. Not understanding the complex, (!), nature of a set of skilled and expereinced engineers, but connecting to them anyway, means that you have to handle the expected reflections. Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:38
  • @MartinJames, I was not assigning blame for the mismatch. Simply trying to state that the mismatch was there, and that it was a perfectly good explanation for the perceived rudeness. And as such we did not need more exotic explanations (bigotry, misogyny) for the perception of rudeness.
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:49
  • 1
    @StephenRauch " What was potentially offensive about the post was that it implied that we (you and I) were bigoted misogynists because somebody felt like we were." -- The blog post does not imply that at all. (I don't enjoy dredging up that discussion once more, but I feel it is still necessary to point that out.)
    – duplode
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:43
12

tl;dr- I'd say "critical" rather than "rude". Truly rude behavior tends to occur when negative emotions overwhelm one's concern for rationality, which isn't something that smart people are as likely to encounter.


Smart people tend to favor critical thinking over pleasant thinking

Folks can have very different internal modes of operation. For example, compulsively honest people might think in ways that tend to presume truth, such that the little bits of their brain tend to both produce and require high-accuracy content. Then by contrast, I'd imagine that compulsive liars have a looser grip on truth, even internally, as lying would be an internal mode of operation for them.

The same seems to apply to critical thinking. This is, most folks seem to find some balance between objective scrutiny and pleasant thinking, but different people seem to have different balances. Those who more strongly favor objectivity over pleasantness are "critical thinkers", whereas those at the opposite end of the spectrum might be called "pleasant thinkers".

I'd imagine that critical thinkers have significant developmental advantages over pleasant thinkers since pleasant thinking often requires aborting a line of thought once it becomes unpleasant. So, I suspect that it's likely true that the most intelligent folks don't tend to be as fixated on politeness as others.

How does this apply to Stack Overflow?

You're probably right that we should accept that smarter folks will tend to favor objectivity over pleasantness more than the average person would care for. And, it's true that more emotional thinkers are liable to confuse objective criticism with negative emotionalism.

Still, seems like stuff can be done to bridge the gap. I mean, as someone who strongly favors critical thinking over pleasant thinking, I feel like I could write a small library on how to communicate with pleasant thinkers who are, in my personal perspective, wildly over-emotional and far too easily "triggered". It's a tricky art that involves a lot of anticipating how an emotional thinker might feel offended by various things and then repackaging the interaction to avoid such negative interpretation, but it's somewhat do-able and could be facilitated by Stack Exchange's site design.

7
  • 1
    You make good points, it falls apart with assuming that politeness and critical thinking are mutually exclusive. You're also overlooking how wildly emotional meta can be here - with those same people accused of not being emotional. Flaws in the logical analysis I'm afraid to say and again sweeping statements about what defines a critical thinker and totally dismissing emotional discourse to lack any type of credibility in terms of logic.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 3:08
  • 2
    @YvetteColomb While I agree with how you disagree with those things, those things aren't points that I'd made. For example, I didn't mean to say that there isn't real rudeness here on SO or SO.Meta, but rather that any such rudeness wouldn't be attributable to intelligence.
    – Nat
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 3:41
  • Oh we are misunderstanding each other.. I mean the continuum of critical .. pleasant thinkers. Much of the problem here lies in trying to address such a large topic in short hand and the added brevity of the comments is not helping.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 3:59
  • (1) Rudeness can also be driven by lack of empathy, which often has little to do with being overwhelmed by emotions. (2) I feel you might be mixing up pleasantness and politeness. Unpleasant things can often be stated in polite, and even kind, ways. Critical thinking can actually help with that, as it makes it easier to avoid ad hominem arguments, personal attacks and unnecessary barbs. Flattening everything into a dichotomy of pleasant-versus-critical is the same mistake you denounce in what you call "pleasant thinkers", only in a mirrored form.
    – duplode
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:04
  • 1
    @duplode (RE: 1) It's rarely practical to be rude; in fact, the most unempathetic people on Earth, i.e. clinical sociopaths, are notoriously smooth talkers! So if someone's being rude, then it's usually because their emotions have compelled them to behave in a way contrary to their objective interests; I'd describe this as being "overwhelmed by emotions".
    – Nat
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:12
  • @duplode (RE: 2) The above isn't meant to imply that pleasantness and politeness are the same thing, but rather that those who are more concerned with pleasantness are also more likely to engage in behavior that would typically be deemed polite.
    – Nat
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:16
  • @Nat - "I'd describe this as being 'overwhelmed by emotions'." - YES! In fact, you can find some convincing articles claiming that the inferred lack of empathy exhibited by Autism/Aspergers's is, in fact, due to their hyper-sensitive abilities. We are on a sort of sensory overload, and perhaps (intermittently) detach to cope. I have personally experienced a 'see-saw' of sorts, where I brutally rebuke someone in a professional email while simultaneously feel deeply hurt by someone who is not 'gentle' enough with me. And I have witnessed the same phenomena in my 2 spectrum children.
    – Tracy
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 8:16
2
  • If some are hard-wired to be "rude", that wouldn't mean the rest of us should stop trying to be more welcoming.

  • Being welcoming doesn't start and end at what we say in comments (which is what some on the autism spectrum would generally have more trouble with) - how we vote, close and delete can also be more or less welcoming (I'm not trying to say anything here about how strict I think we should or should not be with these - just pointing out that they also affect how welcoming we're perceived as).

  • Even someone with no ability to see how what they say is likely to be received can copy-paste a polite comment template, or follow a formula for writing comments, or just refrain from making (unnecessary, or as many) comments.

  • There's plenty to be considered in terms of how welcoming the UI is (meaning what Stack Overflow displays on How To Ask, the Help Center, close messages, etc., how and whether we display post score and when we tell users about close votes) before we even start talking about users.

  • There's plenty to be considered in terms of how welcoming the UI should be, and what it should say, considering how strictly we enforce the rules, and maybe also considering some users are a bit impolite.

-11

The SO experience can be one of rudeness, but I feel that's a symptom. The cause is a lack of definition and distinction between teaching and helping. The second cause is a lack of compassion which results in rudeness, which isn't accountable by SO architecture. If the SO architecture created accountability in experience, this wouldn't even be an issue.

14
  • 4
    "a lack of definition and distinction between teaching and helping" -- This sounds like a different way of framing the matter. Could you please talk a bit more about it?
    – duplode
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 0:33
  • 2
    @duplode: Kinda sounds like what I've been championing as of late.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 2:09
  • No, it isn't reframing the question - the question asks are we pre-disposed to a certain outcome. She further goes on to suggest that it may be due to a lack of empathy. The implication of the post, since it is on SO, that SO brings out, or reveals this outcome and the OP is asking if this is inevitable. I am bringing up two reasons why SO 'reveals' these actions (they're not feelings) which the first is a boundary issue. SO invites a question - without taking into consideration the 'state' of the OP, as if they just need help, or are missing a conceptual point.
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:02
  • 1
    This creates the potential for judgement, which leads to a lack of compassion, which is different from empathy, and is different from sympathy. The idea that a lack of knowledge of someone else's feelings on SO is contributing is incorrect. The responder knows what it's like to be in the position of not knowing. The responder is frustrated after a judgement that the OP 'should' have studied more, 'should' have written a better question, or 'should' have written in some manner expected by the responder. A compassionate person would respond despite the OP being a moron.
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:05
  • @makoto - correct, your post illustrates the entry issue. If everyone was compassionate, your question wouldn't matter, but we don't live in that world. It's a good observance that you articulated better than I.
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:07
  • And in typical SO fashion, I have no idea why I'm getting downvoted. That answer is based on deploying methodologies across the world to create some of the largest engineering systems in existence. If you look at an operational amplifier, negative feedback is continuous - negative feedback shouldn't be a hit and run.
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:12
  • 1
    By "framing the matter", I didn't mean this specific question, but the broader Meta debate over the last few weeks. In any case, you have a very good point about SO unconditionally inviting questions. I believe the community should be acutely aware that the SO model, for all of its virtues, is far from obvious and, in some aspects, overtly ambiguous. For a good conversation starter about related issues, cf. this question, and the comments to it.
    – duplode
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 4:22
  • Ah, I just joined this group today. Honestly the SO question form has always seemed to me to be a trap of sorts, kind of like a push door with a pull handle. There is a legitimate need to understand new concepts and share experiences with architecture decisions. There's roughly only two cases - quick help or a foundation concept, so I think it would be easier to accommodate the colors than to make everything black and white.
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 5:03
  • We aren't here to help or teach. We are here to answer on-topic non-duplicate questions. Everything else is noise. If you want a personal tutoring site, those do exist, but they generally cost money because it is lot of work.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 14:32
  • 1
    @TinyGiant that's pretty subjective.
    – Joe
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 14:48
  • @Joe I think you meant objective. The whole help vs teach nonsense is subjective. This is a question and answer site, plain and simple. I'm not saying that people aren't rude, or that the noise doesn't exist (I.e. people wanting a private tutor, or people filling that role) on Stack Overflow. I'm saying that isn't what stack overflow is for. Considering it rude for it to not be what you want it to be seems unrealistic.
    – user4639281
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 21:28
  • @TinyGiant actually I meant subjective. 'On-topic' is a subjective term, usually determined by the bias of those who have to temporary power to determine relevance. phrases like 'that isn't what SO is for' are biased statements until the UI reflects a mission statement. I'd really appreciate to know where the mission statement is. The 'vision statement' is ' It is by programmers, for programmers, with the ultimate intent of collectively increasing the sum total of good programming knowledge in the world.' We can't argue anything until we know what the intention is, and everyone agrees.
    – Joe
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 2:49
  • If I can't find a mission statement, how can I expect to discuss and quantify the experience of asking a question without getting dragged down by personal bias?
    – Joe
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 2:50
  • 1
-19

In my opinion, the so-named "mental disorders" are in a large part the product of U.S. psychiatrists producing "work" for themselves.

Not always, but so is it.

The rudeness on the SO has many sources and these are independent of each other.

  • There is a hostility against new, low-rep users. Its primary sources are
    1. Collective self-defense against the crap flooding everything on the Internet. We should admit, it is reasonable. For example, simply there is no way to enforce a semi-literate rep1 user to at least try to start their sentences with capital letters. Of course, nice treatment is much better, if there is review resource for that.
    2. Some irrational, instinctual urge to avoid others to reach the same "position" as our current one.
  • There is a hostility to avoid, not very high-rep users (roughly between some hundreds and some thousand). They experience a continuous downwind, trying to avoid them to collect rep and to write questions and answers as they like. In my opinion, its source is mainly (2).
  • The communities of the sites tend to have a "mainstream opinion" in all the things about them. People having different, even contradictory, opinions experience suddenly a very hostile community any time, if they communicate them. In my opinion, the source of this hostility is the general dislike of all "regular", "law-abiding" people against the "criminals". The problem is that one having and communicating different opinions is not a criminal.

In my opinion, these are different sources of the rudeness, hostility and they should be handled differently.

I don't think the psychological conditions would have a significant effect. I don't believe in the 3- and 4-character abbreviations of the U.S. psychiatrists, defining nearly everybody "mentally sick" (to get a lot of money to "cure" them all).

P.S.: I think, also the "racism/sexism" based ideas are completely hilarious on a mainly anonymous site. Anybody feeling a target of probable harassment based on his/her some parameters, could easily choose a nick on which it is invisible.

0

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