87

I stumbled across the tag, and there are over 1,700 questions in it. Many of them are grossly off-topic for here, and I doubt that any that are eligible to migrate would make suitable questions on Software Engineers.SE, either.

Can we mass-burninate this tag? 1,700+ is a lot to ask of Meta; could a moderator possible consider automatic removal of it?

14
  • "could a moderator possible consider automatic removal of it?" moderators don't have ways to mass remove tags. It's a CM/dev only tool.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 0:04
  • @Braiam: I recall seeing/hearing differently, but perhaps I'm thinking of actual employees and not necessarily diamond moderators.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 0:05
  • 32
    In addition to what @Braiam said, we currently have a tag full of off-topic questions. This grouping is advantageous because we can now focus close votes on this tag full of off-topic questions. If a CM removes the tag. the questions will no longer be grouped. I would rather an initial blacklist of the tag, a clean up, then bulk removal of the tag from any on-topic questions left over that can exist without the tag.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 0:07
  • 2
    @TinyGiant: However we want to go about it. This is why I brought it to the community's attention. Might be worth answering this particular question so we have some kind of plan-of-attack.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 0:08
  • 4
    More than 10% of the questions are closed... that's awfully lot.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 0:15
  • 6
    software-design might do well to be cleaned up in the same vein.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 14:51
  • 2
    "Software engineering" is a Humpty-Dumpty term - it means whatever the speaker wishes it to mean, neither more nor less. It's similar to obscenity - difficult to define precisely but, as Justice Stewart so eloquently put it (regarding obscenity, not software engineering), "I know it when I see it". Kind of makes you wonder what they do at the Supreme Court all day, doesn't it? :-) Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 14:00
  • 4
    "Legal engineering", @bob.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 15:31
  • Not obscenity identification? Well, nuts - then I don't want the job. CANCEL MY NOMINATION, DONNIE!!!! :-) Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 17:24
  • Could we not just put a warning on the tag that it might be more appropriate in the Software Engineering site? Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 17:35
  • 2
    @JamesHughes: No. Warnings on tags seldom help.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 17:48
  • Now would be a good time to look at untagged questions.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Mar 20, 2017 at 17:32
  • @JonEricson: Couple of those are definitely locked and could use some higher-level nuking, but we can definitely look through these questions.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 20, 2017 at 17:34
  • @Makoto Do ping me for those.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Mar 22, 2017 at 9:13

3 Answers 3

16

questions are now either 100% retagged or closed.


Per TinyGiant's answer, I've started a chatroom to coordinate cleanup of questions tagged with . The burnination bot, Burnaki is also tracking the tag to ensure accountability for questions with the tag that are closed or questions where the tag is removed.

It's worth noting that the tag has not been black-listed yet.

Progress

enter image description here

Remember that we don't want to destroy value so let salvaging a post be your first priority! If you have specific questions feel free to drop in wherever they can contact you, for example in the SOCVR chatroom, or leave a comment under this post.

9
  • 14
    Feature request: rename "Burnaki" to "Trogdor"? :p
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 20:51
  • 2
    @Jon Burnaki doesn't actually burninate anything though, they just keep track of what everyone else is doing.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 20:54
  • 1
    @TinyGiant yup... but still... cooler name :)
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 20:57
  • 5
    @Jon Yeah, you're right. Who needs to be accurate when you can be cool instead? :P
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 20:59
  • 13
    @TinyGiant The maxim of every movie director ever...
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 20:59
  • 2
    @TylerH don't forget CSI
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 21:00
  • 9
    @JonClements Save "Trogdor" for when we get a bot that does do burnination for us.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 22, 2017 at 1:59
  • 1
    Seems like some questions were closed because they made the mistake of using a certain tag rather than actually being close-worthy. It feels like a waste of time. Certainly there are bigger fish to fry than well-worded, well-answered, upvoted, programming questions. I think I'll be a little quicker to destroy tags next time.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Mar 20, 2017 at 17:32
  • 2
    @JonEricson If you feel like some questions are reopen worthy please cast a reopen vote on them so we can take a closer look. I removed the tag from every question I felt was worth keeping open.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 20, 2017 at 18:07
57

I disagree with bulk removal of the tag right now. Currently we have a tag full of off-topic questions—and possibly some on-topic questions which don't require the tag—that we can focus our close votes and delete votes on.

I propose the following plan of attack:

  • Blacklist the tag. This stops the tag from being added to any new questions.
  • Clean up the tag. This means closing and deleting any off-topic questions, as well as editing any on-topic questions that may need some editing along the way (don't edit it solely to remove the tag, that can be done at the next step).
  • Bulk removal of the tag by a Community Manager or Developer. This process does not bump questions, in turn reducing the amount of old inactive posts being pushed to the front page.
13
  • 1
    The clean up could be done one of two ways: closing questions or retagging on topic questions. The former is if there's a good probability that there are on topic questions with the tag, the later is more effective if most of them are off topic, since a CM can delete the questions outright.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 0:32
  • 12
    @Braiam Editing questions just to remove the tag is discouraged because it bumps the question to the front page, annoying users who are actually monitoring associated tags for questions they would like to answer. It's better to just leave those questions to the end, then close and delete everything that is off-topic.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 0:38
  • 3
    I think I've debunked those theories a very long time ago, but here we go, for the old times: the "front page" is a pseudo random pick of questions strongly biased toward those unanswered and new ones. Second: you are going to waste a lot of close votes if we go that route, if there's another 10% of off topic question that would cost us all 50 votes of 17 user, for a day, but considering that there seems to be more than 10% of off topic questions, that number can grow fast. So, the sensible thing to do would be: retag the salvageable ones and ask for a mass deletion of the rest.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 1:18
  • 9
    By "front page" I meant the question lists for tags that are sorted by activity. During almost every burnination that I've been involved in, users have complained about old inactive questions being needlessly bumped. As for mass deletion of questions, you'll never get a mod, cm, or dev to agree to that. That would still require moderators to review each question because they aren't just going to take our word for it that all of the questions in a tag should be deleted, and they aren't going to do that.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 1:23
  • 1
    This approach seems sensible. We can at least get started with closing and deleting the off-topic questions.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 1:45
  • 1
    I will start going through software-engineering questions sorted by most recent first, and cv as I feel is appropriate. ~50 are in there now, already.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 15:37
  • Just a random thought: if this tag is a good indicator for being off-topic, should be perhaps not blacklist it and use it as a honey trap?
    – oulenz
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 19:48
  • 1
    @oulenz we still would need to close those questions, so, objectively speaking, it will be a waste of moderating resources to keep a "honey pot".
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 19:55
  • 8
    @oulenz What kind of bee are you thinking of trapping with this honey trap? We don't want to lure users into posting off-topic questions, we want to prevent them from doing it.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 20:00
  • 2
    If we kept every off-topic tag to use it as a honeypot, we would have a lot of off-topic tags. More than we would have users to police them.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 20, 2017 at 20:05
  • Presumably those questions would still be posted, whether the tag exists or not. But what we could do is automatically close them as off-topic if they use this tag. Or slightly less drastic, automatically place them in a moderation queue.
    – oulenz
    Commented Jan 22, 2017 at 7:48
  • 5
    @oulenz having a tag for something encourages users to ask questions about that thing. Encouraging someone to post a question then automatically punishing them for doing so is very unfair. Let alone that not all questions that have this tag are off-topic, but the tag itself is.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 22, 2017 at 17:18
  • Although I agree that it should be burninated from the main site, this could be a valid tag on meta, to discuss migration issues to/from softwareengineering.stackexchange.com.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 15:17
0

On my first pass, I don't buy the stated reason for removing the tag:

There is an entire site dedicated to Software Engineering, at SoftwareEngineering.SE.

We have a site for Emacs and if someone suggested removing the emacs tag, I might need to have some strong words with them. The existence of Stack Exchange site that overlaps with a tag doesn't mean the tag is without value. (I also have to wonder why this only came up after the name change. Was not this the topic space of Programmers before the rename?)

That said, a look at the top-voted questions convinces me the tag is redundant with such tags as , and . It's an amalgam of "stuff programmers do that isn't directly coding". As such, it seems to fail at least point 3 (and probably #1 and #3) of Shog's "do we need to burninate?" criteria. So, I don't have any objection to just wiping it from the face of the site.

Since the tag has no reasonable replacement, I'd suggest cleaning up the edges by focusing on the lowest-scored questions. (That would be about here as of this writing.) I see nearly all of those questions are closed already. Once you've dealt with the dregs, let me know and I can clear out the tag everywhere.

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  • That excerpt edit doesn't reflect the stated reasoning here. In all honesty, the edit would've been fine if it had left off the part you quoted.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 19, 2017 at 4:49
  • I included that line to scare off the kind of person who would be scared off by it: the users who ask off-topic questions to begin with, and just happen to choose the S-E tag as one of several. The tag wiki of a burninated (or almost burninated) tag isn't really the place IMO to detail all the reasons why it is off-topic. The primary reason, which is that "the question you want to ask is probably better asked elsewhere" is included via the line I wrote.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 20, 2017 at 0:31
  • 1
    @TylerH: So where should I look for those reasons? The wiki points to this question, which merely asserts these questions belong on the other site. As I said, I don't mind removing the tag. But I do worry this is a kneejerk reaction to the name change. We've had enough angst from regulars on Software Engineering seeing people recommend their site to folks asking poor questions. But now I'm confused. Are you saying that software engineering is off-topic on Stack Overflow? It seems like an overly-vague tag because almost any question might get it. I'm very curious why it might be off-topic.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Feb 20, 2017 at 0:47
  • Just to clarify Jon - I'm not asserting that any of these questions belong on Software Engineers; I'm asserting the opposite. Was that the root of the misunderstanding?
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 20, 2017 at 3:31
  • @JonEricson I don't view it as a knee jerk reaction to the name change. The situation is the same regardless of the name of the destination site. I simply used that verbiage when I updated the tag wiki because it is exceedingly clear now that the subject is best suited for the site since the subject's tag name and the site name now happen to be exactly the same. But the subject was still best suited for that site when it was named Programmers.SE
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 20, 2017 at 15:55
  • 1
    @Makoto: The question could use more details about why the tag is not a good one for this site. The only argument I see is that they are "grossly off-topic", which isn't terrible helpful. (It's also ambiguous what you mean by "suitable questions on Software Engineers.SE". The simple reading is that you'd want to migrate questions there, but they aren't very good.) What problems do you see? If I just burninated the tag right now, what problems (if any) would that cause?
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Feb 20, 2017 at 18:37
  • @JonEricson As far as site cleanup goes, the tag has a high propensity for low-quality questions. Killing the tag now would remove our ability to filter by it and find these. I haven't looked, but I don't think there are any questions with only the software-engineering tag on them. So the above is the only problem, per se, with burninating the tag right now. Unless, by burninating, you mean deleting the tag and any questions that use it.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 24, 2017 at 23:47
  • Also, what's the reasoning behind needing strong words with someone who wants to move all emacs questions (future questions, that is, for the sake of my comment) to the emacs site? Isn't that the point of having specialized sites? I could see something potentially being on-topic here, but being a much better fit for the emacs site... namely, any question about how to do something in emacs or anyone having a problem in emacs. What kind of emacs questions are better to ask here than on the emacs site?
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 24, 2017 at 23:49
  • @TylerH: If you are a programmer who sometimes needs to use Emacs, there's really no reason to create an account on another site to ask your questions. There's a long history of questions in the [emacs] tag and it's on-topic on Stack Overflow. Please see: Does it pay to spin off sites? and Respect the community - your own, and others’.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Feb 26, 2017 at 6:39
  • @JonEricson I'm not sure I buy that argument. I haven't clicked those links yet (I will), but if you haven't created an account here, then it's the same effort regardless of the site you pick. If you have, it's only two clicks to create an account on another site. If your argument is that they can ask about a topic here because they CBA to ask it there instead... well that's basically just enabling laziness.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 26, 2017 at 7:05
  • 2
    @JonEricson And looking at your self-answer to whether it pays to spin off sites, you mention that in general these specialized sites get better answers than a general site like SO. But you also admit that emacs is an edge case, so I'm not sure it's really a good example to use in an argument against burninating software-engineering. S-E is a broad subject that lends itself well to its own site. That's why there is an SE/Programmers site: to answer high-level questions about the engineering or design of software.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 26, 2017 at 7:10
  • @TylerH: It's an argument about community. I don't simply mean the act of creating an account, but the entire process of becoming familiar with another community. The premise of offshoot sites (and here's where following the links would help) is that the Emacs community consists of more than programmers. If you want to be part of a group of Emacs enthusiasts, I recommend that site. If you just want to fix the way syntax highlighting works in C++, you can ask either here or there. At any rate, this is all beside the point. If you see off-topic questions, close them regardless of their tags.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Feb 26, 2017 at 7:12

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