17

Frankly, can I call a moron a moron in my Twitter, without getting banned on SO? Sometimes the itching is almost unbearable.

May be a stupid question but better be safe than sorry.

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    I do not see why unless you are targeting/harassing the user outside of SO. That might cause an issue but I am not sure if that is even enforceable. Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 15:32
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    "May be a stupid question but better be safe than sorry." Actually, I would say it's a good question- While a lot of people may think, "Well, you shouldn't say anything rude or mean even if you won't be banned here," not everyone is wired that way. For example, I personally don't see much wrong with calling someone a moron for doing something moronic, but others would be quickly offended even if they weren't the moron in question. Kudos for thinking to ask before talking yourself into a trap. I'd warn that if the "moron" sees it, you could find drama, at the least.
    – Kendra
    Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 15:35
  • Pretty sure just calling someone a moron even on SO wouldn't get you a ban; it'd just get the comment/post deleted/edited (unless it was a frequent pattern of behavior), so I couldn't imagine, even if SO is willing to take action to an SO account for actions the owner takes off site, that this particular action would merit a ban.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 15:45
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    @Servy oh don't tell me that tale. All you need here is a person who likes to feel insulted. Even without calling them any words. Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 15:46
  • Question is more: what is the chance this is found out and you start to be harassed for it? IMO its just not worth it to tie your name or username to these kind of outings in this day and age where Google knows too much about you, its too easy to get longrunning hate for it in return.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 16:20
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    Calling people names on the internet is as risky as it is popular. It may be safer to just print out their usercard and pin it on a physical dartboard. Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 16:23
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    @Gimby this week TrollTrace will go live, and everyone will be able to find the address of trolls!
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 16:30
  • 2
    CodeCaster mentions this in their answer but I think this depends on whether you user their SO username, @/# them on Twitter, or @/# Stack Overflow in the same Tweet. It's the difference between shouting into the darkness and shouting in someone's face. It also depends on whether or not your followers will do that for you or start harassing that person on your behalf.
    – BSMP
    Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 17:42
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    It depends on whether the moron being referred to is me, or some other person.
    – YowE3K
    Commented Nov 3, 2016 at 3:27
  • 4
    It makes a lot more sense to provide context and anonymity to the moron rather than naming the moron (traceable) with no context. In the first case you're safe and people can empathize with you. In the second case you just look like you're being a jerk for no reason and you might get in trouble for it. Ex: "Someone just did ____. What a moron," vs. "brandaemon is such a moron."
    – intcreator
    Commented Nov 3, 2016 at 3:34
  • Why would it? Twitter and SO are two different sites. I don't get it. You can call anyone anything you want on your own Twitter, it has nothing to do with SO.
    – ShadowGod
    Commented Nov 3, 2016 at 4:03
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    How about using common sense and just not engaging with stupid? Why would you waste energy on stupid?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 3, 2016 at 7:59
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    Is someone wrong on the internet? Better grab a pitchfork and head over to twitter... Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 13:37
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    @CarrieKendall Gotta stop off and make that obligatory xkcd reference first, though.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 13:39
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    Wanting to call someone a moron on twitter just because of stackoverflow interactions does not seem very mature in the first place. Why is there a need to point out a complete stranger you don't like to your twitter followers. What do you gain from this?
    – Hayt
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 13:54

4 Answers 4

38

Let's not beat about the bush here - deliberately launching ad hominem attacks (and that is what calling someone a moron amounts to) are text book examples of bullying plain and simple. The bottom line is that's simply not acceptable behavior anywhere, no matter what the venue.

So with my moderator hat on I think there's only one reasonable answer here: if anyone engages in stalking (because digging out more contact details from someone for no other reason than to harass is) and bullying people in a way that comes to our attention we will take any appropriate action that's open to us.

I do not see "taking it elsewhere from SO" as a mitigation or a fundamental shift in scope. (Neither do lawyers in workplace bullying cases).

Bullying is not welcome here and even if there are other services or venues which don't take such a strong view it is still harmful to programming as a profession and it has a negative impact on everyone whether they consider themselves a professional or a hobbyist or a student.

In reality if someone were to engage in this behavior we might not see it without it being brought to our attention and we don't have a large set of options open for dealing with it, but that doesn't excuse or justify it.

There are plenty of constructive ways to vent frustration, but bullying is not one of them. Don't do it.

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    Basically, as a moderator I'm supposed to deal with behavior on Stack Overflow and prevent problems here. As a person, if I see someone being subjected to targeted harassment offsite as a result of their participation here, I feel compelled to do something about that. Now, I'm not talking about posts like "look at this solution, the person who posted that is an idiot", but more direct attacks on people that go well beyond criticism of what they had posted.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Nov 3, 2016 at 14:38
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    For example, we've taken action against users on site as a result of: obscene insults being directed at someone on Twitter after a disagreement on the site, anti-Semitic slurs being posted all over a SO user's GitHub repositories because someone didn't like being criticized by that user, SO users coordinating to get a developer fired because they didn't like a tool she created, someone sending Photoshops of an SO user's wife to them over Facebook after getting a question closed here, and obscene and threatening emails being sent to someone's work address.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Nov 3, 2016 at 14:46
  • 3
    So, it seems like if YCS just calls someone an idiot on Twitter but doesn't engage in stalking or bullying, that's OK.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 13:35
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    To clarify, are you saying that being critical off-site of a Stack Overflow user's conduct in a way that the SO moderators deem rude is grounds for a Stack Overflow ban? That seems like an unnecessary and harmful overreach that I'd prefer Stack Overflow not to engage in, if so - but I'm confused about whether that's what you actually mean. You talk about "bullying" (which is a bizarre way to describe speech that might not even be directed at the "victim") and "digging out contact details" (which YCS said nothing at all about). Is the actual conduct YCS described ban-worthy, or not?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 13:54
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    I don't believe this answer or @BradLarson's comments answer the question at all. They address repeated, targeted harassment. The question asks if YCS were to post on his own twitter (with no mention of @-ing anyone, let alone the person being "bullied") that (s)he though someone was a moron, if that'd be OK.
    – R_Kapp
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 14:08
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    @R_Kapp In addition to addressing a completely different situation, it doesn't actually say what action would be taken. Saying, "the appropriate actions would be taken" is meaningless when the question is asking what the appropriate action would be for the described situation. You don't say what the appropriate action is here. If the appropriate action for someone saying something on their own twitter is "do nothing", say that. If the appropriate action for that is, "ban their SO account" then say that; if there's more nuance, explain it (to at least some degree.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 14:13
  • 4
    @R_Kapp - I provided specific examples to show when we did give warnings or account suspensions for actions taken outside of Stack Overflow. People regularly insult Stack Overflow members on Twitter and in blog posts (for example, see the "why SO sucks" style posts that get linked here, which often mock specific members). The fact that nothing like that appears on my list shows that we generally don't act on random offsite insults when dealing with users here. Since we don't know whether someone's proposed insulting post would veer into actual harassment, I show things we have acted on.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 16:05
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    Moderators don't patrol Twitter, Reddit, or personal blogs. We don't have time for that. Something would have to be bad enough that someone flags us down onsite with a complaint about offsite activity. That's almost always the result of targeted harassment, where someone is being subjected to direct abuse that is hard to avoid. Thus the cases I describe above. Unless you take your rant on your blog and shove it in someone's face, we're not even going to know it happened. Doesn't mean that I think it's personally healthy to insult people publicly, or that it makes you look better.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 16:11
  • @BradLarson That moderators don't actively patrol the web looking for Stack Overflow users misbehaving is no guarantee of safety, and your fellow moderator Flexo is here explicitly stating that if an offsite "ad-hominem attack" on a user is brought to a mod's attention, they will take "any appropriate action". There's a vast different between your responses suggesting that punishment for off-site speech will be dished out only with restraint in response to real, egregious abuse, and Flexo's stating that 'action' is guaranteed in response to any complaint of off-site personal criticism.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 16:35
  • 4
    @MarkAmery - What Flexo said was "if anyone engages in stalking [...] and bullying people in a way that comes to our attention we will take any appropriate action that's open to us", which closely parallels what I said above and the examples I provided. Could a single blog post qualify as being "bullying"? Maybe, depending on what was written. Short of us saying "OK, here's exactly how abusive and insulting you can be to someone, but no further", this will be judged on a case-by-case basis. Again, if it's bad enough that someone flags us down onsite about it, it's probably more than insults.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 17:11
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    @BradLarson you're missing that in his first sentence Flexo said that any "ad hominem attack" is bullying. "Bullying" isn't a vague, subjective word here as it is in normal English - Flexo has given an example of it that the rest of the post is presumably premised upon. Under that premise, a blog post that is critical of somebody is bullying by definition.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 17:28
  • @mark You seem to be confusing "being critical of somebody" (e.g. X repeatedly advocates dangerous use of deprecated functions) with direct attacks (e.g. X is a moron). The former is ok (but probably better written without mentioning who X is and doesn't gain much by doing so) and the latter categorically is not. Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 18:35
  • 3
    @Flexo that's a useful and welcome clarification. I still profoundly object to the idea that Stack Overflow should be punishing users for so little as calling another programmer a "moron" off-site. Why should I lose the ability to benefit from somebody answering questions on Stack Overflow because you decide (perhaps reasonably!) that some part of their off-site speech constitutes a "direct attack"? Plenty of good programmers are abrasive or politically incorrect; Linus Torvalds has (infamously) said far worse than calling a colleagues a "moron". Is he "categorically" not "welcome" here?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 18:48
24

You need to ask yourself: what is the intention of whatever it is that you're about to publish to the web, for everyone to see?

If you want it to be educational, you can obfuscate the code or rewrite the text in question, so it isn't trivially traced back to the original author. You don't even need to call them a moron, but could simply call them naive or unknowing. If the article gains any traction, and the person it is about reads it, you can but hope they will know it is about them.

If on the other hand you want to go all-out on a rant, then sure, go ahead. I wouldn't see why that would be necessary, but if you feel like it, perhaps you just should.

As of the consequences, the Help Page called "Be nice." appears to be intentionally vague:

Don't be a jerk

If you call out someone by (user)name on a domain you own and which is traceable to you as a user, then I think that could be considered "being a jerk", even if it's off-site, and a moderator could follow up on that by sending you a polite warning.

If you just want to know the answer to "How likely is it that a moderator will follow up on being a jerk to another user off-site", then I can guarantee you it will be "It depends". It will depend entirely on what you're about to write, how subtle the rant will be, what details you include about the user and their behavior, how true and warranted the rant actually is, and so on.

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    Your answer is correct that in theory the mods could follow up on it, but I feel this is more a question of how likely they are to do so... I would be willing to bet "not very" myself, not for something as small as calling someone a moron, but I don't know for sure. (Though of course the risk that they could is very much worth considering before taking an action like this.)
    – Kendra
    Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 15:56
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    That help center article is calling out the behavior that is expected of people on this site. It's rather specifically not referring to off site behavior.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 15:56
  • So this question was actually posted as a question instead of an answer to 2016 Stack Overflow Moderator Election Q&A - Question Collection? Are only moderators allowed to answer it? I'm giving my opinion to this discussion question. Nowhere in that help page it is mentioned that those rules only apply to on-site behavior. If the actual question here is "How likely are the mods to do this", then the answer will be "Try it out and see".
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 15:59
  • Don't get me wrong- I find your answer useful myself. I think, if the "how likely" concept isn't addressed by mods, then your answer addressing that it's possible is a reminder that you should consider that it's possible before you take such an action in a traceable manner. I just think the question is better answered as "how likely" than "Is it possible?"
    – Kendra
    Commented Nov 1, 2016 at 16:07
15

I can't imagine calling someone a moron off-site would get you banned, though as CodeCaster said I suppose it could depend on the nature of what you write.

That said, I once read a quote attributed to Mark Twain:

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

To give up even on argument and just resort to name calling seems like descending a step below this.

My advise is to freely call an action or method moronic, but that there is little to be gained by calling an individual a moron.

2

I am going to go ahead and throw in the obligatory answer here.

Why do you feel like you need to do this? Specifically, what purpose does it serve? You're here at Stack Overflow, presumably, for 2 main reasons: To learn and to teach. This mentality where you need to belittle people (even if you feel like you're just delivering the truth) because you have disagreements or someone has done something you don't approve of comes off as childish.

Keep it professional in the comments section of wherever you have a disagreement and walk away when you have nothing else to add. If you're mad, talk to someone about it in a private setting where you can vent and move on.

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    Leaving aside that this doesn't actually answer the question, it's impossible advice to follow reliably in a multicultural forum where people are used to different habits of speech. I've been quite upset before by SE moderators editing comments I thought were perfectly polite and reasonable (but which they thought sounded hostile) into a form they thought was polite but that I considered viciously nasty and condescending and was angry to have falsely attributed to me. And I suspect that the famously abrasive YCS has, uh, more trouble than most of us at expressing himself non-offensively.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 14:01
  • 3
    Downvote for suggesting that SO is a podium to teach. Lets not propagate the common misconceptions of the site please :/ Adding knowledge to the repository is not the same as teaching, its basically the act of avoiding doing that and rather saying "here, I wrote it down. Help yourself".
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 14:28
  • @MarkAmery Your comment is about addressing an actual problem on another forum, not calling "a moron a moron". Also re: not answering the question, it's the discussion tag, this is my thoughts on the discussion. Feel free to downvote, I am aware that this is a highly controversial idea on Stack Overflow. Commented Nov 4, 2016 at 22:30

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