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In another Meta discussion about how to deal with new users, user Joshua Taylor formulated the community's expectations towards new users in an interesting way. He said (emphasis mine):

... I don't think that SO is particularly unfriendly to new users, but rather to new programmers.SO claims to be for professional and enthusiast programmers, and those kind of individuals should already be in the habit of researching thoroughly before asking questions and should have reasonable debugging skills. New programmers don't necessarily have those things.

The help center mentions "professional and enthusiast programmers". "Enthusiast" can be interpreted as including "amateurs and complete newbies", i.e. there is no discrimination at all when we define the site's target audience.

While I like that liberal approach in general, the influx of questions from people who simply state "this code doesn't work" is really, really depressing. And from what I've heard that is the case not only in the traditionally garbage-attracting tags like PHP.

Should the help center text be changed or clarified along the lines of what Joshua said above, for example (addition in bold):

Stack Overflow is for professional and enthusiast programmers, people who write code because they love it. However, we expect you to be in the habit of researching thoroughly before asking, and you should understand the basics of how to debug code in your language.

It would arguably not be a big departure from what already is community policy, but it would make it official that we expect some basic skills from the OP, and remove ambiguity. It's meant not so much for the newbies themselves (who won't read it anyway) as it is for the voting and closevoting public. Sort of to say, "our constitution now says in its very first article that you have to know a tiny little bit about what you're doing". So far, we haven't been 100% clear about that.

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  • Professional and enthusiast don't always relate to skill or knowledge level and can just as easy be differentiated by doing something or a living and doing it has a hobby. Just because someone programs as a hobby does not mean they don't have the skill and knowlede of a Professional.
    – Joe W
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 20:43
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    @JoeW sure, but the suggestion doesn't exclude that possibility, does it? It simply adds that you have to know something, which we're not doing at the moment - not this clearly
    – Pekka
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 20:44
  • Well from the way you worded your post it sounds like you are saying enthusiasts are newbies without the skill or knowledge of how to make a correct post on Stack Overflow.
    – Joe W
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 20:47
  • @Joe OK, I changed "equals" to "includes", should be clearer now
    – Pekka
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 20:50
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    I agree wholeheartedly with your objective, but the problem is that those same enthusiastic amateurs also don't read the FAQ/guidelines, therefore they won't know that something has been made official.
    – slugster
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 21:02
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    @slugster yeah, it's meat not so much for the newbies themselves as it is for the voting and closevoting public. Sort of to say, "our constitution now says in its very first article that you have to know a tiny little bit about what you're doing"
    – Pekka
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 21:04
  • If people are too lazy to research or put effort effort into their own problems then why do we assume they will A. Follow the help center guidelines and B. Read the guidelines at all
    – jimSampica
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 21:36
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    See Pekka's comment just above yours @Shoe...
    – Ben
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 21:38
  • Out of curiosity, what constitutes "basics of how to debug code"? I've met plenty of second/third year students that have never stepped through code with a debugger simply because it hasn't been covered in the curriculum yet. I'm not saying the curriculum is "right", just saying that that's the reality of it.
    – Geobits
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 21:47
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    @Geobits Being able to debug doesn't mean you use a debugger. It can mean you mentally step through your code without a tool.
    – jimSampica
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 21:52
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    @Geobits How many people with enthusiasm in other fields don't encounter something until it comes up in a curriculum? They're supposed to be enthusiastic about this, right? I think enthusiasts sometimes fall into the opposite problem that they encounter some wonderful tool and end up with overengineered solutions because they're so excited to use it. Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 22:29
  • @Shoe I get that. I'm just wondering if that particular wording might be used by some as an excuse tosay "learn to debug and come back" while linking to "official policy". I see enough of that as it is in comments.
    – Geobits
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 23:13
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    @JoshuaTaylor I was just asking for clarification. A user can be extremely enthusiastic without knowing what they're doing at all. I learned to program as a kid with GW-BASIC and moved up to QBASIC shortly after. It was years before I even learned the term debug, even if I had been doing it mentally and with the help of PRINT statements.
    – Geobits
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 23:14
  • @Geobits That's definitely a good point, and it's important for question answer-ers to recognize that what may look like a lack of sophistication on an asker's part may just be a lack of familiarity with some of the vocabulary (though this is a bit more surprising in the days of the web). Even without knowing about the term debugging, though, someone who has carefully placed print statements at important places in the code will be able to answer requests for clarification like "how do you know the function's getting called with the correct value?" and the like. Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 23:33

3 Answers 3

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"Enthusiast" can be interpreted as including "amateurs and complete newbies", i.e. there is no discrimination at all when we define the site's target audience.

I agree that enthusiast can include amateurs and complete newbies. Indeed, I hope that it does! However, that one is a programming enthusiast also implies that one is enthusiastic about programming. The quality and tone of some of the homework questions is clearly not that of one who is enthusiastic about programming.

What does an enthusiastic programmer look like?

Those enthusiastic about programming may still have some low-quality questions, but they will respond positively to requests for clarification; after all, they'll want to share what they're working on and learn more about it, and won't simply be asking for code.

Those enthusiastic about programming might not yet know about all the resources available to those who have been in the field for a while, but just as someone enthusiastic about a game may read lots of guides, reviews, etc., it's reasonable to expect that someone who is enthusiastic about programming will have already encountered Stack Overflow, and will have already come across some questions in their languages and topics of choice. They might not know about a resource, but an enthusiast, when pointed to some great documentation will say, "Wow, I had no idea this existed — the link from Google was broken, thanks!" It doesn't mean the question was much better, but I hope that there'd be less perception that “Stack Overflow people are mean.”

An enthusiast might not understand why something doesn't work, but they'll have hypotheses. The quality of these might be terrible, but they'll be there, and they'll be there for a reason. I have, for instance, a very hard time imagining anyone who would qualify as a professional or enthusiast mechanic asking a question about an automotive problem and only saying "it doesn't work". They'll tell you what they hear, how it feels, whether it happens at all speed, high speeds, low speed, just after it rains, only when their mother-in-law is in the car, and all sort of other things that may or may not have anything to do with it. Humans are exceptionally good at problem solving, and are great at finding patterns and correlations even when there aren't any! Someone with absolutely no curiosity about a problem is hardly showing typical human behaviors; not mentioning hypotheses or other thoughts about the problem is apathetic at best.

…more examples as I think of them… :)

Based on the comments, I think we may have hit on an tentative description of who Stack Overflow is designed for that captures both "programmers and enthusiasts":

Stack Overflow is for the kind of person who has spent a long day trying to find an answer to a programming problem, but still hasn't found an answer.

I think this aligns well with https://meta.stackexchange.com/q/182266/225437 and this answer to it.

How do we respond to enthusiastic programmers?

I think the level of enthusiasm demonstrated by question askers probably influences the kinds of responses they get. Sometimes a lack of enthusiasm is met with more antagonism than it should be, and that is a problem.

That said, I think that off-topic questions asked by enthusiast, but new programmers, are often met with more forgiveness. For instance, in the RDF, SPARQL, and other Semantic Webbish tags, there are plenty of users who are interested in some new technology and are looking for help or wondering how this technology might be applied in their domain. As an instance I came across a few minutes ago, this is a reasonable question asked by a reasonably high-rep (~2500) user: RDF Inference Engine application. I think it's too broad or unclear as it's stated, but it's clearly someone who is at least a little bit enthused about what they might be able to do. I tried to respond reasonably graciously, and with a request for a more specific problem. It's the kind of question that I'd like to see made better and would like to see (or write) an answer to.

On the other hand, https://stackoverflow.com/q/19493196/1281433 is a question that doesn't sound so enthusiastic to me. The question sounds like a simple request for code without much attempt to investigate. I don't like this question as much. I realize that the quality of the writing in these two questions is very different, and I hope I'm not simply prejudiced by that, and that one of these is a better example than the other.

Should "professionals and enthusiasts" be qualified?

I don't think that it would hurt at all, but I also don't think that qualifying it will help very much. I don't think that all that many people read that section before posting questions. I expect that the portion of the help center describes the site as it is, not that the site has become what it is because people have read the help center and abided by it. Now that it does describe the site, it's a useful place toward which to point people who need to know what the site's about, but I don't think that clarifying what "enthusiast" means will make much difference in those cases. That is to say, I don't think it's a realistic idea to expect that someone would read the help center, realize "oh wow, I'm actually not very enthusiastic about this whole programming thing; I really need to do more ground work as if I enjoy it (or were getting paid for it) and rephrase my question."

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    From a purely pragmatic standpoint, SO (for so many reasons) is not a very good venue for the absolute beginner, regardless of how enthusiastic they might be. Your example is a great illustration of why this is true, given that SO is not a resource-locating service.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 22:31
  • Very good answer. And of course enthusiasm itself isn't a constant. Users may resort to asking a question on SO after a long, long fruitless, unproductive frustrating day when enthusiasm for the subject is in withering supply.
    – McNab
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 22:49
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    @McNab Certainly, I check users with (or (professionalp user) (enthusiasticp user)), not (and ...). :) Perhaps enthusiasm is more closely related to perseverance than happiness. In either case, if someone's posting "after a long, long fruitless, unproductive frustrating day", I'll call them a professional, even if they're not employed as a programmer. Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 22:53
  • Haha, yes on reflection I realise I am describing my life. These hobbyists are crazy....I don't want the codez.
    – McNab
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 23:00
  • This is connected with the issue of huge closing vote queue. And your definition of a "good enthusiastic newbie" makes this suggestion and others from this thread seem valid (apologies for self-promotion ;) ). An enthusiastic-newbie in a good sense wouldn't mind spending some time within the community before being allowed to ask a question.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 23:05
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    @McNab Actually, your comment, my reply, and your reply got me to thinking: maybe a good way to describe this all is to say "Stack Overflow is for the kind of programmer who has been frustrated after banging their head against a wall for a day." That humorous, but there's a lot of truth to it. Commented Oct 21, 2013 at 23:36
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Good luck with this! (No, that's not sarcasm...)

We've spent many, many hours on ServerFault discussing how to at least promote - and preferably enforce - that our target audience is "Professional Systems and Network Administrators." The main reason for this answer is to point to some similar discussions we've had on meta.SF.

Although we've done our best to come up with a reasonable definition of "Professional," we still spend a lot of time on meta.SF discussing what the limits are.

The ideas that you've mentioned here - that you want questions to come from people who know how to do their own research and debugging - are similar to some of the ideas we've had.

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A reminder of what its like to be new to a particular field or language.

My usual process goes something like this:

  1. I find some silly little problem that I don't know how to solve.
  2. I Google it to the point of exhaustion, looking for adequate documentation, people who have done similar things, etc...
  3. After several hours if I still haven't found any usable resources, I start to recheck the not so usable resources I could find.
  4. Then I start a long and irritating trial and error phase, trying to hack together something that will do the job.
  5. After several more hours of beating my head against that wall, trying to make sense of the resources, and trying to turn that into usable code, I start to think about asking a question on SO...

As you can probably guess at this point I'm not exactly enthusiastic anymore, I'm exhausted, frustrated, and I've been fruitlessly scrapping the depths of every resource I could find for hours.

I would guess this process isn't unfamiliar to most programmers, hours of beating your head against the wall, followed by a brief yet fulfilling "Whoohoo it finally works!"

Try to keep in mind that often when you are reading a question you're dealing with someone who is the lowest point of the beating the head against the wall phase, granted some folks are "help vampires" and asking a question on SO is very nearly the first step in their process, but I think more often than is usually apparent, when people breakdown and post a question they're at the end of their rope.


All of that said, I think the proposed change is a good idea.

Stack Overflow is for professional and enthusiast programmers, people who write code because they love it. However, we expect you to be in the habit of researching thoroughly before asking, and you should understand the basics of how to debug code in your language.

It encourages the process I've written about above, sounds strange I know, but all of that fruitless searching I mentioned wasn't as fruitless as it seemed at the time. I may not have found the solution I was looking for, but I learned a lot about the new language in the process, and possibly even more important than that...
I learned how to do the research.

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