-211
votes

Moderator note: - This experiment has been postponed. Please see the duplicate post above for the explanation and discussion.

It's been a while since we last talked about the one-reputation voting change. We are still pursuing this because stagnating participation on the network is a concern for all of us, and we want to think about ways to grow the active community on the network. We have, by design, utilized rep as a threshold to award privileges and prevent bad behavior. While this has been effective in creating the current status quo, it has made participating on the network in some of the most basic ways difficult.

By pursuing this experiment, we can better understand what happens when we remove those barriers and what, if anything, we need to address to ensure that doing so doesn't cause harm. We want to find a healthier middle ground where we can find ways to open up the gates to participation a bit while also addressing issues like voter fraud more efficiently.

Last we communicated, we asked for volunteer sites and proposed how we wanted to run the experiment. We have had some time to reflect on the feedback we received. We returned to the drawing board to see what changes we could make to make this a smoother experience for everyone involved. We are now coming to you with additional changes and a new direction for the experiment. This plan was presented to the moderator team to gather their insights and identify additional risks and necessary steps to improve the experiment. It's important to note that while we received valuable feedback, there were varying perspectives, which included dissenting views. We took these into account to further refine the experiment.

Many of these changes are a result of your feedback. We intend to roll this experiment out to get the data we need to determine if reducing the barrier to voting would create a positive or negative impact, and what resources we would need to invest if we identify positive signals to pursue.

Defined Terms

  • Established Users: These are users that have already earned their upvote (15 rep) and/or downvote (125 rep) privileges.
  • Test Users: These users are given voting privileges as a part of the test they otherwise would not have.

Major Changes

One Testing Site

Previously, we asked for volunteer sites; and while that route may have worked, we really would prefer not to take it and then find that we didn't collect enough data to learn anything, and then have to go through another period of testing. To that end, we will be testing this exclusively on Stack Overflow. We plan to run this experiment for around four to six weeks.

Shared Data Analysis

For this particular test, we understand that some may have concerns about how voters will engage and the level of fraud that could occur. We will keep this in mind as we analyze the data, and we will share the data analysis we utilize to make decisions with the community. We will also share anonymized data with the moderators to review if they feel inclined. Please note this is not something we're able to do for every test that we run, but we feel that it is necessary for this experiment to have this level of transparency.

Two-phase testing approach

We had several internal conversations about concerns raised from moderators. Stack Exchange agreed that we needed to have a better handle on how many users were gaining the privilege so that we could better keep tabs on their behavior. To meet that requirement, we made the following changes by making the voter privilege test into a two-phase test.

Phase 1: Logged-in users can vote

Hypothesis: Validate that allowing more users to vote will not increase fraud disproportionately.

This is styled as a 'do no harm' test rather than an A/B test. We will start with a small subset of users, thirty thousand, and scale up from there. To start, we won't be letting existing users know that they can vote, but if we do not see enough activity to get results one way or another, we will turn a prompt on to make that clear. We could be considering this a phase 1.5 if voting activity doesn't change much at all. As we keep tabs on the activity, we will scale up the proportion of logged-in users who get the voting requirement privilege turned off. The first couple of days we will add more users to the test group to make sure it's at a good level and that nothing is going terribly wrong. We won't be doing this on Thursday or Friday, so we have better insight and that spikes in activity will be less likely to happen over the weekend. After the first week, we will only make changes to the amount of users who have access on a weekly basis.

After we have concluded phase 1, we will pause to do the analysis on vote fraud, engagement, and what kind of sock-puppet voting we are seeing and share data with the moderators. We will then share the outcomes a little bit later with everyone on Meta Stack Overflow. We are estimating that phase 1 will take somewhere between four to six weeks. Should things start to look poorly before that, we will shut the experiment down. Should we successfully run the experiment and decide we need to make changes to phase 2, that also will be communicated.

Phase 2: A/B test the upvote prompt to anonymous users

Hypothesis: Telling users they can vote will encourage them to sign up without disproportionately increasing fraud.

This will be an A/B test where we prompt users to sign-up to vote and measure if any voting activity happens. New users will be shown a voting prompt that you can see below in the mockups section. Assuming phase 1 is complete, this experiment becomes about whether prompting users to vote will encourage them to sign up, assuming that logged-in users have the ability to vote. Similar to the above, we will increase the frequency of the voting prompt to anonymous users to let them know the option exists. We will monitor this group separately from the others to see the behavior differences.

We anticipate that there will be some form of voting fraud here. It's very important we see that to understand how this change impacts things. That being said, if things go off the rails, we will shut down the experiment. We don't need to run this phase nearly as long and could get the data we need as quickly as a week, but for clarity, we think it could take anywhere from one to four weeks.

These changes will allow us to get the signup and engagement data while reducing the risk of individuals attempting to take advantage of it as bad actors during the experiment. Because we are approaching this more conservatively, we may not see as much voter fraud or bad actor attempts otherwise. This requires us to operate under the assumption that it will be there to some extent. Should we get to a point where we believe this should be a permanent change, we will work with moderators to determine what tools are needed to prevent vote fraud.

Association Bonus

For the duration of the experiment, the association bonus will not be given out to any users who would've earned it from actions taken on Stack Overflow. We will backfill them where appropriate after the experiment has concluded. Whether Test Users earn them by receiving reputation from Established Users or not, we are just pausing this bonus while the experiment is ongoing. After the experiment's conclusion, Test Users who earned them by receiving a reputation from Established Users will have this awarded to them.

We wanted to turn this off because of the possibility of abusing this test to gain privileges on other sites on the network. We are interested in reviewing the association bonus as a whole but won't be revisiting it as a part of this test.

Votes cast during the experiment

We want our test plan to include the option to reverse the voting behavior of the users in the test group and the possibility to remove their privileges altogether. Ultimately, we can't really know what will happen and how user behavior might change due to this test. We need the data to understand its pros and cons. We don't want to assume that there will be more bad votes than good, but we also don't want to assume there won't be any bad votes at all. To that end, privileges will be reverted back to normal at its conclusion. Additionally, we have some scenarios in mind to reverse some or all of the voting behavior by the test group.

Downvoting Friction & Voting Prompts

Any experiment user who downvotes will get this prompt for the duration of the experiment starting on day one of phase 1. The other option will provide a text box to share their reasoning. This gives us the opportunity to collect some data from users on why they voted the way they did. The outcomes are not shared with the author of the question or answer.

Downvote prompt that gives the following options: The answer didn't work for me, the answer is incorrect, the answer works but there is a better way, other.

For questions, there will just be an open text field that looks like this:

Text box for open-ended explanation on why a question was downvoted

Users who are not signed in will also be shown this prompt in some cases to encourage them to sign up and to upvote content they find helpful.

Stack Overflow homepage with a popover stating, "Did this help? Vote!" Support others and thank the author by voting on useful answers. Two signup button options with regular signup and a signup with Google option

Possible Scenarios

We've mapped out a few scenarios for how this experiment may go when launched. While there are certainly many different ways for how this all plays out (and perhaps a combination of a few listed below), we’ve simplified this into four different scenarios:

Scenario A: Everything is Great

We ran the experiment and found that fraud is minimal to non-existent, new users usually vote, and no issues are raised. We leave things as is but keep an eye out for any concerns that might later arise. Rollback to previous privilege thresholds, and we will prepare to make this a permanent privilege change on Stack Overflow.

Scenario B: Good things, but a few undesirable things too

We ran the experiment, and a few issues arose, but minimal fraud existed. We leave things as is but keep an eye out for any new or greater concerns that might arise. We will prioritize some work around additional moderator tooling and consider additional product changes to prevent issues. Rollback to previous privilege thresholds, and we will prepare to make this a permanent privilege change on Stack Overflow.

Scenario C: Some good signals, but just as many undesirable signals.

Lots of known issues and concerns. A disproportionate increase in voter fraud. Rollback to previous privilege thresholds. We ran the experiment, and many known issues and concerns were raised. We see a substantial increase in voter fraud. We will roll back to the previous privilege thresholds and reverse problematic votes. We will then prioritize work to address the concerns and communicate next steps.

Scenario D: The house is on fire. This is fine

Completely unforeseen issues arise, and significant concerns need to be addressed. Rollback to previous privilege thresholds. We will revert some, if not all, votes in the test user group and return to the drawing board to see if different avenues incur fewer issues. If things go genuinely off the rails, we can stop the experiment early.

Note: Users in the Test User group would keep their voting privileges if they earned them through legitimate upvotes from Established Users. Any users who lose the privilege after the conclusion of the test will have a specific communication explaining what has happened. Both of these are meant to preserve the user experience as best as possible if we have to roll back the privilege due to issues.

Rationale

Ultimately, we don't know what might happen: we can guess, but these will be just hunches at the end of the day. We need to run a test to determine what is true and what isn't to see if this is a worthwhile change or a terrible one. That being said, I did want to draw attention to the concerns around inadequate tooling to handle the potential increase in voter fraud. We are launching this experiment with some new fraud monitoring and alerting.

These tools, as well as others that we are not sharing at this junction, will better inform us of any malicious activity of this test as it occurs.

This test could result in potentially unforeseen positives. Voter privilege expansion could identify threads that are worth pursuing. I won't rehash the contents of past posts on new user experiences, but for example, what if this experiment shows that voting helps user retention? Suppose users who can vote have a faster time asking/answering questions or just generally hang around more. In that case, we know we have a thread to pursue to help user activation, which could lead to initiatives around improving those experiences, and how to take more actions on the network, such as onboarding.

We don't want anyone to come away from reading this feeling their specific concerns are being ignored. Truthfully, many, if not all, of the concerns raised through various communications of this test are possibilities that could occur. We have, however, found that the easiest and quickest way to figure out what should or shouldn't be done to help address the outcomes that may arise is for us to collect some data to work with — instead of going on pontificating about which ones are more likely. So, while we understand that the changes we have presented here may not adequately address your concerns, we would ask for the opportunity to allow us to find out what exactly happens. Once armed with the necessary data, we can then determine if this initiative needs to be abandoned or if it's just a matter of implementing appropriate tools or safeguards to prevent undesirable behaviors due to this privilege change.

Next Steps

We are intentionally not announcing a start date for this experiment. The reason behind this is that we don't want to signal to test users that they are part of an experiment. To that end, this post will be unfeatured a week after today, April 10th, 2024. The intent of this is not to hide the experiment from the community but instead to preserve the quality of it as best we can so as not to signal to test users that they are part of an experiment.

The first phase of the experiment will run for four to six weeks. Phase 2 will run between one and four weeks. If necessary, we are prepared to end it prematurely. At the conclusion of phase 1, we will share the dataset with moderators and then allow time for discussion on the outcomes we have reached and what we think the data indicates. We will then share a general summary of where things are at before starting phase 2 and repeating the process. After that, we will share a report with the wider community to share what we have learned and what direction we plan to take from there.

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    The company has already been made aware of the many ways this can be abused, and the significant workload increase this will lead to when people notice, and that the tooling we have is nowhere close to capable of dealing with the kinds and volume of abuse this will cause. They have not responded to our concerns, and many mods (including multiple SO mods) have objected to the change from allowing sites to volunteer for the test to shoving it on SO. They did not care about the objections. Commented Apr 3 at 14:22
  • 59
    @ErikA SO did not volunteer (multiple SO mods actively object as well, myself included), they went back on their promise about volunteer sites, they picked SO because they want "more data" (and they lack the foresight to understand the incredible fallout this will result in by running the tests on millions of users) Commented Apr 3 at 14:23
  • 90
    Please do not do this. I get you need to make money but burning down the site that made buying it attractive is not the way to go about it. We have way too much work to do already and we do this work for free. I am about to say F it and just walk away pretty soon. I guess one user doesn't matter but I think others are in the same boat as I am. Commented Apr 3 at 14:34
  • 35
    @NathanOliver A couple mods have talked about resigning if this test moved forward (and the company knows about those discussions). We'll see if they go through with it or not, but you're absolutely not alone in that boat Commented Apr 3 at 15:01
  • 19
    @Zoeisonstrike Thanks for the confirmation. You mods already have too much to deal with. I do have to kind of laugh at this situation as I explicitly did not run for moderator because I can't trust SO to keep their word on things, and what do we have here... Commented Apr 3 at 15:06
  • 32
    FFS, please, fix the bugs first. What makes it hard to onboard people is not the voting system, it's the thousands papercut to keep the site quality which gives newcomers a harsh entrance. If after two strikes and all the posts you're still not figuring that out you're just aiming a footgun and pulling hard on the trigger.
    – Tensibai
    Commented Apr 3 at 15:09
  • 45
    "We are still pursuing this because stagnating participation on the network is a concern for all of us" is it a concern for all of us? Stagnation is expected as the site achieves it goal of being a repository of knowledge, and I think it's done well at achieving that. Stack Overflow, as a company, might be concerned, but that's because companies like OpenAI have ripped the content that we, the users you are ignoring, have written for you for free and they (OpenAI) haven't given you a penny. Diluted the future vote pool with 1 rep user votes will not help this.
    – Thom A
    Commented Apr 3 at 15:33
  • 16
    The fact that the site has many of the answers we are looking for, when we're suggested the post in our favourite search engine, means that site is working as intended. There's a limit to what new questions can be asked today and are actually good new questions, because many of those questions have answers; it's only the incredibly localised problems and new features/technologies that are really outside of the "already answered box". It's rare I don't find the answer I'm looking for when I search a problem for a language I'm not an SME in. That's not concerning; quite the opposite.
    – Thom A
    Commented Apr 3 at 16:04
  • 18
    That this proposal has been so badly received by the Stack Overflow community (mods and users), and despite other communities wanted to try it (as it may well better for their model) really throws mud in the face of a different recent announcement.
    – Thom A
    Commented Apr 3 at 17:40
  • 45
    Can't find any other reference to this, so: What happens to the rep. of a user with 1 point when they downvote an answer? If I do that, I lose a point but a 1-rep user can't lose their point. So, can I expect all my posts to get downvotes when I delete an NAA post from a new user in the LQA review queue? All-in-all, this seems like a very poorly-thought-about change. Commented Apr 3 at 18:03
  • 32
    You're going to get fraud. You're going to get a <expletive deleted>ton of fraud. But the really interesting one to watch will be the non-fraudulent folks who upvote bad content like UB-laden hacks and downvote correct-but-complicated content because they don't understand how deep a pit they're jumping into. It's the "toxicity" of Stack Overflow that makes its content generally trustworthy. Commented Apr 3 at 19:28
  • 43
    There's definitely a little irony in making it "free" for new (1rep) inexperienced users to downvote, while people who are more likely to recognise good/suitable content are given a -1rep for each downvote. It is now actively "profitable" to have a second account used exclusively for downvoting (Not suggesting that, it's obviously against the rules, but people WILL abuse this system)
    – DBS
    Commented Apr 3 at 19:51
  • 14
    "...stagnating participation on the network is a concern for all of us..." - And you know for a fact that not being able to vote until you have some rep is the cause of "stagnating participation", instead of, say, the abysmal quality of most posts nowadays? Commented Apr 3 at 21:10
  • 18
    The entire point of testing something before rolling it out fully is to avoid saddling 90-odd percent of the user base with the consequences before you know whether it's a good idea. Commented Apr 4 at 6:44
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    @SpencerG Suspended users would just create another account and use that to vote, that's why the reputation limit exists and what it protects against. Removing it effectively means that anyone (including anonymous and suspended users) can vote anything.
    – Alejandro
    Commented Apr 4 at 14:37

24 Answers 24

153
votes

This plan was presented to the moderator team to gather their insights and identify additional risks and necessary steps to improve the experiment. It's important to note that while we received valuable feedback, there were varying perspectives, which included dissenting views, we took these into account to further refine the experiment.

For the community, I think it is important to point out how understated the phrase "dissenting views" is. The Stack Overflow moderation team has been very vocal in opposing this change. Opposition has been for several reasons, including:

  • We did not volunteer for this experiment. It has been opposed by the SO moderators and other sites did step up to volunteer.
  • Tooling does not scale for the concerns we have. It's mentioned that this is launching with new tooling, but they aren't being shared "at this junction". For moderators, that means the tooling does not exist at this point then.
  • CM time is limited, and with focus split on new initiatives, AI content, and now this, the time they have to allocate to investigate vote fraud will decrease.

I continue to oppose this change. I'm not speaking for the entire moderation team with this post. I do want the community to understand that this change was not the result of an agreement with the Stack Overflow elected moderation team though.

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    "The Stack Overflow moderation team has been very vocal in opposing this change. ... I do want the community to understand that this change was not the result of an agreement with the Stack Overflow elected moderation team though" - Appreciate yourself and the rest of the mod team fighting our corner on this despite being unable to tell us what you were in our corner for. Commented Apr 3 at 14:27
  • 44
    Let me state for the record, as a mod of another site in the network, that I 100% agree with Andy here, specially when it comes to the choice of words: "dissenting views". That does a dishonor to those that voiced these views.
    – rene
    Commented Apr 3 at 14:38
  • 37
    I'll second that. The SO mods - and other Network mods - were not just "dissenting views". They raised serious concerns about many aspects of this experiment and these concerns were not addressed, either in responses to the concerns or through edits to this public post (before it went public). Commented Apr 3 at 14:50
  • 17
    So, yet again we're being lied to by the company (or BS'd... but honestly, what's the difference, the intent is the same).
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Apr 3 at 15:02
  • 15
    "The Stack Overflow moderation team has been very vocal in opposing this change." They are not alone in this. They got full support from many of the other moderators on the network that how this went down is not acceptable. A great many people have vocally opposed this change in the past few months and warned the Team about possible fallout.
    – Mast
    Commented Apr 3 at 15:41
  • 18
    "while we received valuable feedback, there were varying perspectives, which included dissenting views" - I believe the Venn diagram of "varying perspectives" and "dissenting views" approximates a circle. Saying those perspectives merely "included" dissenting views is misleading at best. Commented Apr 3 at 16:05
  • 2
    @SpencerG considering how much data is collected about the user interactions with the site, has other methods of lab testing been explored? You can fake vote visualization for those specific users and do AB testing tracking that session behavior. It would probably less costly in the global sense (not only SE dev cost, but also SE community costs).
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 4 at 18:54
  • I actually understood "... there were varying perspectives, which included dissenting views." as some feedback dissenting from other feedback. Its not just understated but misleading. Commented Apr 5 at 14:28
96
votes

The only interesting part of this is the downvote friction prompt. It would be interesting to see what that collects.

Otherwise...

  • Voting has been available to everyone for years. The UX could certainly be improved, but short of substantial investment there I don't see it driving activity much; you could have at least shown some numbers for what current low/no reputation voting looks like and where you hope to see it move. But... We all know that 1) it's low, and 2) it likely won't move much when it starts affecting post scores. Except...

  • Fraud: your approach is "disable association bonus and hope for the best?" Seriously? It's almost like you've never done fraud before. Go out and sin, come back when you know how to recognize it.

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    "voting has been available to everyone for years" And I pointed this out last time they brought this experiment up, but it didn't really get any response from staff (other than one (former) CM re-learning that anonymous vote tracking was a thing). Given the huge dearth of knowledge about the system the current CM team has, and how none of them actually use SO, it's likely they don't really appreciate the impact this is going to have on the site.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 3 at 15:08
  • 53
    "Go out and sin, come back when you know how to recognize it." - Brilliant way to put it. Staff doesn't understand user motivations anymore, and hasn't for years.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Apr 3 at 15:19
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    Yeah, that's where dumping a decade+ of institutional knowledge really bites ya, @tyler - there was hope long ago that we'd be able to make those low-rep votes more functional, show them on profiles, indicate to the user that they'd voted, automatically apply them as normal votes once the user reached a level of trust... But none of that seems to have influenced this current effort.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 3 at 15:30
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    For what it is worth I tried to query postfeedback to see who would benefit. And based on this I don't expect any new users to be thrilled as this voting will not gain them much. I highly doubt these new voters will remain active if the gamification doesn't reward them as well.
    – rene
    Commented Apr 3 at 16:11
  • 4
    @rene thanks, that's valuable feedback for our next experiment, tentatively titled "please please please stay and click, here's 20 rep per 10 page views". Commented Apr 3 at 16:17
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    "Seriously? It's almost like you've never done fraud before" - that may well be true since the company has made the wise decision to fire all the people with actual experience :/ This reads like it came from the minds of very enthusiastic 20 year olds who rather than taking the hard and correct path just want to throw things at a wall and see what sticks.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 4 at 8:58
  • 1
    @TylerH I remember that conversation, and I immediately thought of it when I saw this question. It's almost as if this was suggested back in the "Thanks reaction" experiment and nobody paid any attention then, either. Commented Apr 4 at 16:28
  • 2
    @Gimby sometimes, throwing things at the wall is a viable strategy, specially if you are dealing with many unknowns unknowns, but in this case, this information is there. SO records anonymous feedback since forever, I do not know if logged in but still without privileges users are recorded. In any case, there are many intermediary steps that can be explored before going full italian chef.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 4 at 18:13
77
votes

You turned Stack Overflow into a nuclear test site.

After you (the company) have been repeatedly asked not to do that.

It's important to note that while we received valuable feedback, there were varying perspectives, which included dissenting views.

AFAIK, there was not a single Stack Overflow moderator supporting this test. Saying there were dissenting views is a huge understatement.

We took these into account to further refine the experiment.

With all due respect, that is not true. If you had, you wouldn't pursue this experiment.

And the most worrisome part is

Rollback to previous privilege thresholds, and we will prepare to make this a permanent privilege change on Stack Overflow.

I am worried that you will do that, regardless of the results of the experiment. You already have that laid out, and the experiment is just sand in our eyes. Just like last year's post on Meta asking for sites to volunteer was just sand, too.

This is a big change, and we would really love to find sites willing to volunteer - we don't want to force any sites into this test group.

You don't want to force sites, until you do.

And one of the problems with gathering results is that you will not get accurate assessment of the potential harms in the first place. Voting fraud will take time to discover and it is possible abuse will be low initially. Just like you were able to run Discussions space for quite some time without anti spam system in place and nothing bad happened. Until it did. It takes bad actors some time to wake up. And when they do all hell gets loose.

And it won't be you who will have to clean up the mess afterwards, it will be Stack Overflow moderators and curators. And we are still recovering (and it will take us months, if not years to clean up) from the "AI experiment"* where you also didn't listen what we are saying.

* AI experiment being jumping on the AI hype and developing and pushing various AI features, sending mixed signals to inexperienced and new users, while at the same time preventing moderators to effectively moderate AI posts

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    All I can conclude is that the company is in fact the dissenting view.
    – Largato
    Commented Apr 3 at 17:22
  • 4
    So, do you regret getting elected a month ago, now? ;) :P Commented Apr 3 at 17:37
  • 15
    @AndreasmovedtoCodidact I was well prepared for anything. and this shoe was released in public some time ago (Meta), so it was on my "possible shoes that might drop at any time" list.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 3 at 17:45
  • 4
    There’s always a hope that the worst wouldn’t happen. Commented Apr 3 at 17:50
75
votes

As a moderator on two Network sites, while I can confirm that this was indeed shared with us, I wouldn't characterize it as taking the feedback "into account to further refine the experiment".

Multiple SO mods raised concerns about this experiment. I'll let them speak for themselves if they wish.

Personally, I looked at this from the perspective of a user. Although I don't code as much as I used to (and not at all in my day job anymore), SO and the Network are pretty important to me. I raised two specific concerns that went unaddressed.

First, there's no good rationale for this experiment. The intent is to address "stagnating participation". However, there was no definition for what participation metrics were being looked at and which ones were the focus of this experiment. There are many ways to measure participation - new user registrations, active users per unit of time, new questions, new answers, comments, accepted answers, upvotes, downvotes, flags, positively received new questions per unit of time, and so on. Increasing the number of people who can vote may cause more votes, but is that really the engagement metrics that the community cares about? Perhaps it would have been a worthy discussion to look at the engagement metrics and identify which ones are important to which stakeholders and then devise experiments that can be linked to improve those specific metrics. It's unclear why votes are more important than new good questions or new good answers or new users that register and remain active.

Second, the hypothesis cannot be tested by phase 1. If you don't tell fraudsters when this change happens, they will have to stumble upon it and then devise actions to take advantage of it. Plus, if they are smart, they can just wait until the experiment ends before taking advantage of it in large numbers. The experiment is not designed in a way to gather meaningful data about fraud.

Personally, I was intrigued by the idea of prompting for an optional and anonymous vote reason. This is something that has come up as a feature request in the past, and not only for downvotes but also upvotes. Having insights that get exposed through the API or SEDE regarding posts, scores, and reasons for votes could be enlightening. However, this is being tied to an otherwise problematic experiment rather than a data-gathering exercise regarding why people vote on things. Having a discussion about that and soliciting feedback would have been interesting, if it wasn't part of these other changes, even if the community ultimately rejected the idea.

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    I agree with the flawed testing premise. The bad actors can just wait, let the policy get updated because they didn't act badly, and then boom. Commented Apr 3 at 14:38
  • 28
    "The intent is to address "stagnating participation"" - if only there was another way to deal with that. They've been given many ideas to mitigate the decrease, ranging from trivial (re-reducing the answer rate limit back down to three minutes) to more complicated both publicly and internally, both related and unrelated to this change, all of which have been ignored. Commented Apr 3 at 14:39
  • I'd guess the rationale behind this experiment in order to "increase participation", is that more upvotes means more warm feeling in the bellies of new users. More warm feelings hopefully results in more users returning.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Apr 3 at 14:41
  • 7
    @Adriaan Maybe, but that's a flawed way of looking at it, as experienced users will say. Questions will still be closed and deleted, for example. And people complain about their questions being closed and deleted because they are really bad questions that don't belong. So driving up the number of upvotes or votes in general has no bearing on participation if people get frustrated and leave after having questions closed. Commented Apr 3 at 14:45
71
votes

My two biggest complaints with the test plan, besides the broken promise to test on volunteer sites only:

  1. Moderators have repeatedly pointed out that the company does not have a mechanism to measure fraud comprehensively, and in particular does not have a mechanism to measure the types of voting fraud newly exposed by these changes. The existing tools depend on the fact that users are forced to use a limited number of accounts to vote because they have earned sufficient reputation only on a limited number of accounts. Despite this, many of the claimed purposes of this test involve hypotheses about fraud, including the proposed workflow of the test itself where various checkpoints and decisions are based on fraud measures that do not exist. I have not seen a believable endpoint for the company's fraud hypotheses. If the test is not designed to measure fraud, it seems the company has pre-determined that no fraud will be measured.

  2. In previous feedback, I suggested that the company come up with some predetermined goal/endpoint for efficacy for this intervention. Basically: how will the company determine that this change has done something desirable for the site? Some examples might be a set number/percentage of new users, a set increase in some participation metric, etc. You will get a lot of data from this test. You will be able to show 'success' if you try hard enough, no matter what, by picking your outcomes after the fact. Something will be different. This is a well-known problem in data analysis. By not pre-specifying how success is defined, we cannot have any confidence that the company is using data from this test to inform subsequent decisions rather than to support a pre-decided outcome.

In my view, these two issues prevent the test from being useful. That doesn't mean that the employees directly responsible for implementing the test and interpreting the data have any bad intentions. I truly believe that you're trying to do the best you can with what you have. My worries are that the results will be predetermined by the design of the test and by other internal pressures to act. For example, given the stagnating participation on the network and all of the effort that will be put into performing this test, how will you survive the business pressure against declaring the effort a failure and not actually making the change that was hoped to fix participation?

I've already shared these concerns in private at every opportunity, with no sign apparent to me that these concerns had an influence on the announced testing plans.

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    How about we do this the way the company has treated AI. The test can go ahead, once the company has provided subtle heuristics to the moderator team for how to measure fraud, which once the moderator team has approved, the company can then proceed against experiments that rely on. Oh yes, because the company doesn't actually care about this being a partnership, they want all there things to go through as fast as possible, whilst the community proposals get stuck in councils, committees and approvals. Commented Apr 3 at 20:10
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    I love the linked wikipedia article, it really captures my feeling about this tests. The deceptive writing of this announcement, the way it handwaves what was basically a 100% disagreement from the site mods as "included dissenting views" really show how the company is carefully crafting their own propaganda focused on partial truths. Only showing partial data that matches the expectations you want to sell... seems very likely. Commented Apr 4 at 8:13
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    I agree here; it seems this experiment is rigged, given no hard control parameters are defined in the post. After the experiment they can cook up as many statistics as they want and cherry pick those that show "increasing participation" making this experiment a success, and only show statistics that do not show fraud to validate that this is indeed a good decision. This entire experiment appears to be just for show with a foregone conclusion.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Apr 5 at 5:47
63
votes

All these discussions are revolving around the same problem:

Trying to fix the wrong thing

Symptoms:

  • Users are frustrated with unexplained downvotes, feeling a lack of "empathy", "limitations to use the network tools" (voting included), harsh moderation and so on

    (why on earth do people rarely complain about wrong upvotes?)

  • Stagnation of the network

Proposed solutions (easy path):

Cripple the systems to make users with accounts happy with the participation prize, at the expense of content curation.

Probable real solution (hard path):

  • Better user education at onboarding 1, about what is the network and how it aims to provide solid knowledge. More friction before letting anyone post content. And also Keep the friction to use tools, this worked well, needs adjustments, most reported on all metas and usually not answered (as it conflicts with the easy path).

    So, the users will understand that they are making an account for sharing knowledge from experts, to the rest of the world, what the real meaning of a downvote is, understand that it being hard is a way to provide free knowledge, that filtering systems are not personal, and that the real benefit is for all visitors (mostly without a user account).

  • Understand what is causing stagnation, and how to do the metrics

    Firstly, it's normal that there is less new content as time passes by, as most critical questions were answered. More content and solutions, less need to login.

    Lower number of visits? Maybe because content is becoming difficult to locate, as noise is at an all-time high. Needs more filtering to recover from the damage done in past years trying to convert the network into a 'social place'. Need to recover the visitor's trust.

    So, think outside the box, provide a new model, in parallel, without destroying what brought you here in the first place.


This is still relevant - please make another site (or another "section") if you want to change the original premise:

I wish more people understood that the goal of Stack Overflow is not "answer nay question" but "let's collaboratively build an artifact that will benefit future coders". Perhaps SO could be doing more to educate people about this. -- Jeff Atwood

1. also, perhaps staff needs onboarding/reviewing it too, maybe some fundamental pillars become forgotten/lost as staff changed over time - doomsday prophecy: trying to change something that you don't understand usualy leads to colossal failure

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    "doomsday prophecy" Put another way: the Principle of Chesterton's fence.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 3 at 17:01
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    @TylerH thank you very much. English is not my language, feel free to fix any other strange/wrong wording.
    – Largato
    Commented Apr 3 at 17:04
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    I agree with the general idea. I think you're off with your framing of the "easy path". I don't think this will be as drastic as to "cripple the system" (though I certainly have concerns), nor do I think upvotes are a "participation prize". And upvotes are a content curation mechanism (one of the primary ones!). as for the traffic drop, it's clearly because the people who left prefer LLMs. all the steep drops coincide with releases of LLM models that generated buzz (ChatGPT 3.5, ChatGPT 4, etc.). those people are largely gone at least for the near long-term.
    – starball
    Commented Apr 3 at 21:47
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    @starball LLMs can't replace programming at minimum levels we expect at SO answers currently - nor will very soon. And the fact that is happening by tiny bits (this proposal is just a very small bit indeed) doesn't mean they aren't crippling the system. It's already crippled, indeed. And getting worse in a fast pace. Sometimes this bit by bit approach is worst in my view, as it tends to hide the real problem until it's too late.
    – Largato
    Commented Apr 3 at 23:11
  • I don't use LLMs for programming (except once to see what the hype was about, and there were many subtle inaccuracies). but the question of why people are leaving is not whether LLMs are a reliable solution to their problems. it's whether they like the LLM experience more than the SO experience for their use-case. and they do. I suppose my initial interpretation of "crippled" was not what you mean (I thought "crippled to a halt").
    – starball
    Commented Apr 3 at 23:22
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    @starball a good and curated site may be not the first resource for a while (a "signifiicant" while), people will use LLMs to find easy solutions... but as it doesn't work well, the second resource can be some non-LLM, and well-curated site, so it shouldn't mess so much with numbers in the long run. About the crippling part: I believe that with current company mindset, is only a matter of time that the site will loose relevance at a point that it won't halt, but becomes a ghost city by irrelevance.
    – Largato
    Commented Apr 3 at 23:34
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    This. I am a firm believer that if people better understand what Stack Overflow is (not) from the get-go, there will be far less friction. It isn't so much the problem of downvotes being unexplained... it is that people don't even know and understand that voting is a core feature of the site. It isn't expected; Stack Overflow looks a lot like other sites where you are free to act socially and ignoring personal responsibility without consequence. It looks like Reddit, it looks like a forum, it looks like Twitter. If you take that imprinted online yolo behaviour to SO... you hit a wall. Hard.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 4 at 9:26
  • 1
    @starball, many people don't care much if LLM is right or not. The result only has to work long enough to become someone else's problem. Commented Apr 4 at 17:09
  • @user4581301 read my last comment again. that's to the effect of what I said.
    – starball
    Commented Apr 4 at 17:59
  • @starball On reread, yes, "Not my problem" is in the set of "Fits my usecase." Commented Apr 4 at 18:04
52
votes

We are still pursuing this because stagnating participation on the network is a concern for all of us, and we want to think about ways to grow the active community on the network.

Frame challenge:

Why is this the justification for this experiment? More importantly, why is growth a goal here? It is well-documented1, 2, 3 that the trend or expectation of endless growth is misleading at best, and actually harmful at worst.

Wouldn't it be better to base new experiments and features on solving real problems that the site community is facing? 1-rep and anonymous users can already cast votes. If you think they aren't voting enough or engaging enough, why not improve the signage and visibility of that feature in the system first? Why turn the entire quality system that has worked well for 15+ years completely on its head? Here are some ideas in a similar vein as this experiment you could (ought to) try first:

  • Show anonymous vote count next to the real vote count (or somewhere else). You can also include registered 1-rep users in this (or anyone who doesn't have enough reputation to cast a 'counting' vote of whatever type)
  • Display a user card when anonymous users vote that urges them to register so they can start earning reputation and participating in more meaningful ways, including casting registered votes.
  • Allow anonymous/1-rep users to mark a post as helpful some other way. One thing that's nice in other Q&A/help sites is "n users found this post helpful"--why not allow something like that while still allowing experienced site users with sufficient reputation the ability to cast the actual votes that can impact its ranking? Registered users' names could be shown in a tooltip on hover. The same system would be appropriate for a 'not helpful' reaction, which is also useful feedback for authors (who would probably greatly appreciate a way for users to anonymously tell them their post isn't helpful some way other than by receiving a downvote).
    • this idea could potentially work as "convert my reaction to a post vote when I reach the required reputation" and/or could be available only to users who don't have voting privileges. Alternatively, don't auto-convert reactions to votes, and just allow all users to provide reactions.

None of these would turn the system on its head or open avenues for increased vote fraud, but would greatly improve the visibility of impact on users and would, in turn, make users who can't vote feel like they've been able to make their voice heard.

I recommend focusing on improving your product for the people who use it rather than playing the 'make number go up' game to satisfy the suits at the top. Whatever size your product audience ends up after that will be your audience's/product's "right size", and it's OK if it stays at that size. I understand this is easier said than done; it will require speaking truth to power and saying 'no' to your bosses. But it's the right thing to do.

No one is asking for 1-rep voting, least of all 1-rep downvoting. There are quite literally thousands of things you could be spending dev hours on that people have been asking for. We even made lists for you.


Counter proposal:

Personally, I think there are too many questions asked on Stack Overflow every day. I think the noise-to-signal ratio is too high; fewer questions asked daily will help with that. Interesting questions go unanswered or completely unseen because there are a dozen questions about syntax errors or with code as images blotting them out. This in turn leads to a perception of lower usefulness of Stack Overflow, which in turn leads to lower participation. Stack Overflow got its reputation and brand cache thanks to its quality. It has since continued to suffer from its own success, to the point where it has lost a significant amount of quality and thus a significant amount of that reputation/brand value.

If you want to see an improvement in voting and only want to change voting rather than all the other contributing factors to engagement (user onboarding, post quality, site/thread searchability, tag categorization, etc.), just let users cast more than 40 votes a day, instead; that will also "make number go up". 80 votes a day is probably a good start. In the meantime, you could also pursue any or all of the bulleted items above.


Previously, we asked for volunteer sites; and while that route may have worked, we really would prefer not to take it and only find out we didn’t collect enough data to learn anything and have to go through another period of testing.

Why not? That's called being thorough. It certainly doesn't seem useful to do an about-face and foist this experiment on a site that begged and pleaded not to be included in it in the first place. That's pretty disrespectful to your user base, and you really owe them an apology if you go through with this. The top answer by Rand al'Thor on the original MSE announcement even predicted this:

I totally understand why you're asking for volunteer sites, instead of forcing this on any site that doesn't want it, which would have gone down way worse with the mods/communities of those sites and with the broader SE community.

Much like George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, the Meta SE answers on that announcement were supposed to be cautionary tales, not instruction manuals.


1 - https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2020/02/12/economists-slow-economic-growth

2 - https://scholars.unh.edu/dissertation/463/

3 - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-delusion-of-infinite-economic-growth/

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    "why is growth a goal here?" because the company is owned by vulture capital. The two core values of vulture capital are "number goes up" and "rate at which number goes up". These are combined with the belief that they can make sure someone else is holding the bag when the inevitable results of the enshitification that drives the number up finally causes the company to implode into uselessness. Commented Apr 3 at 17:00
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    "n users found this post helpful" That reminds me of the Reaction emojis experiment of a few years ago. It didn't go well...
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 3 at 20:04
  • @PM2Ring Pointless unrelated emoji reactions are different from a simple binary "this post was helpful/this post was not helpful" system. I agree that the emoji reaction or thank you system were dumb ideas.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 3 at 20:13
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    "solving real problems" that's what they claim to be trying to do. I don't know how to express my thoughts on that right now other than "it looks like the company doesn't think the same as us on what the real problems are (and how to address them)", which is not a very interesting statement.
    – starball
    Commented Apr 3 at 21:37
  • @starball That blog post talks about the benefits of AI. It's not talking about implementing 1-rep voting, either as an experiment or in an ongoing fashion. So they're not really related.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 4 at 14:41
46
votes

I'd point out that in general, the mod community across the network has been skeptical. I'd volunteered one of the sites I moderate, (pets) since we actually do have issues with engagement, and practically we could deal with issues at our scale.

The mod-side announcement that this was going on was the first we heard about it.

Naturally, the community manager who I had engaged about this was downsized, and the company chose the worst option possible. I can only hope the person who made these decisions has to at least help deal with the outcomes, should they be overwhelmingly negative.

Several options that were suggested in feedback - like letting people vote for score without increasing reputation were dismissed, which might have been a reasonable compromise.

Practically, we're at a very funny place here. We're told the community is important- yet it feels a lot like the community that's here is less important than some nebulous community that's not, and while focused on trying to bring outsiders in, inside voices are either ignored, or pushed away.

It feels a lot like failure's the best option for us, but only if that causes the folks who decided to go this direction to reexamine their motives and direction.

At this point between the bad news of last quarter and its fall out, and this... I'm not sure that the folks charting our course are going in the right direction.

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    Indeed, several alternatives to allow people below the current rep limit to participate somehow in voting were suggested by moderators, and I'm sure there would be numerous other useful suggestions if the community at large were asked for them. Even more frustrating than the pressing forward on this particular change is that I do not believe any of these alternatives were even acknowledged. It's possible they were considered somehow beyond closed doors or in discussions I was not a part of, but I did not see any sign that's the case. Commented Apr 3 at 16:26
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    How many users do we have to lose for this experiment to be considered a failure at the goal of increasing the size of the userbase? Commented Apr 3 at 20:16
45
votes

I sincerely don't know what is funnier anymore: the company unwavering desire to commit a slow and painful seppuku while ignoring all the user yelling them to stop or the fact that someone doesn't realize this is indeed seppuku and probably really thinks it will bring good to the site.

TylerH posed a frame challenge and asked why you think participation is an issue. Largato suggested that this is the wrong way to fix the issue.

I want to take a step back.

We are still pursuing this because stagnating participation on the network is a concern for all of us, and we want to think about ways to grow the active community on the network. We have, by design, utilized rep as a threshold to award privileges and prevent bad behavior. While this has been effective in creating the current status quo, it has made participating on the network in some of the most basic ways difficult.

You argue that since "participating on the site is difficult" then "the participation is stagnating.". So, "obviously" the answer must be found when you remove all the "obstacles" in participation.
Basically, if your product does not sell, the answer is clearly "make it free"... I don't think Amazon would really agree, would they?

I suggest a different "frame challenge". Are you sure that the "participation stagnation" is really due to "difficulties in using the site"? Did you try to see if there is a similar participation drop in established user that aren't bound to the "limits" you plan to remove?

As a simple user, I am quite willing to bet that the drop you are seeing is caused not by the site usage requirements - which haven't really become stricter in the last years - but more by the fact that...

Your user base is burnt out and fed up with the site

Yeah, I am sorry to make this so blunt, but it has to be said.
Your actions managed to get users to create a copy of the site FOR FREE in their spare time just to not have to use this site anymore. Does the company think Codidact is not an issue because "too small to compete"? I suggest you to worry more about the fact that someone was so angry at the site to invest in building a copy that thinking "Codidact is not real and can't hurt you".
Your problem is not that users can't use the site. The issue is that user don't want to use the site, and this is because the site reputation nowaday is WORSE than it ever was: before you just had people who had a bad onboarding experience (mostly learning how to ask good questions, something removing requirements won't solve) insulting you on reddit, now you managed to get your burnt over users there to join the hate too.

Just read this two comments again if you can take something with you from all the posts on this announcement.

When this was announced, there was a discussion about sites volunteering and sites being chosen where the impact would be little. Did Stack Overflow volunteer? If not, why was it chosen?
– Erik A

@ErikA SO did not volunteer (multiple SO mods actively object as well, myself included), they went back on their promise about volunteer sites, they picked SO because they want "more data" (and they lack the foresight to understand the incredible fallout this will result in by running the tests on millions of users)
– Zoe is on strike

I'll leave you with some questions:

  • do you think that Zoe participation after forcing the test to the site anyway will improve or "stagnate" as you call it?
  • do you think Zoe is just a "black swan" or maybe more users could feel the same way?
  • have you ever tried to categorize the user participation stagnation based on users groups? If the older users participation is also stagnating, why you think that the issue is found in reputation requirements that they are far past by now?
  • have you ever considered "anger at the site/company" as a cause of participation stagnation? If you did, have you ever considered how to solve it?
  • even if you took those reddit "I hate Stack Overflow" new users post as issue signals, did you notice those post very rarely mentions things like "I need rep to vote" and very often things like "it is difficult to post questions that fit the quality requirements"? Do you think this may relate to the "better onboarding tools" the volunteer mods keep asking?

enter image description here

As usual, every time I say "you" I mean the company and not the unlucky ambassador chosen to forfeit their reputation on the new "Yes we know we promised to not do this but actually we changed our mind" announcement.

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    I share the same feeling as yours. I feel deceived and stepped on by SE. I've been a long-time member, and I've never seen the community being as harmed as it is doing now. Commented Apr 3 at 18:17
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    IMO the company doesn't seem to understand what the community means when we say "better onboarding" From this post they said they were going to focus on onboarding but rather than that we get this experiment that isn't really well thought out... Commented Apr 3 at 18:18
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    I mean, they did put this feature under onboarding, 🙃
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 3 at 19:00
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    @KevinB I'll take this opportunity to 1) annoy you, and 2) repeat that hiring is not onboarding (nor is granting system privileges). onboarding is teaching how to be a member of an organization and properly carry out its work. (also, +1 SPArcheon for the meme)
    – starball
    Commented Apr 3 at 22:05
  • I don't 100% agree that it isn't a function of onboarding, since onboarding involves introducing users to the features of the site... voting being among the most important. in my own experience, I'm somewhat reluctant to participate on new stacks because I can't downvote there. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it'd be kinda weird imo to "teach" users what voting is an then to say "but you can't do that till you figure out the site and it's rules enough to "earn" 10 or 125 rep". I definitely want this change and think it's an overall good, but i hope they're ready to deal with fraud should the naysayers be right.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 3 at 22:13
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    @KevinB Yeah, but the education should come first, and that's what they consistently avoid. This take at onboarding is akin to giving a bunch of fresh recruits loaded guns and live grenades and hoping they'll somehow figure it out. Crazy....
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Apr 4 at 2:32
  • 4
    @KevinB if you search for "Stack Overflow" on reddit, 90% of the complains are about "toxic community", "gatekeeping (closing new posts, nitpicking on question format, harsh replies by older users" and more generally a poor experience when asking questions. I see people ranting about snarky comments, closure, pile downvotes and so on. I don't see those people ranting because they can't downvote yet. Commented Apr 4 at 7:55
  • new users are pushed away because they have different expectations when posting new questions. Part of this comes indeed from wrong expectations, part is because we indeed can be quite rude. Alas, IMHO, no user will go rant on reddit that "Stack Overflow is a toxic [redacted]" because the rep requirements "gatekept" them from downvoting, editing tags descriptions, viewing deleted questions etc. As I wrote, I am pretty convinced this experiment totally misses the cause of the problem on new users retention and totally ignores the issues with old users retention. Commented Apr 4 at 8:00
  • @SPArcheon new user retention was always more important than old user retention. New users are where most of the answers come from, where the biggest source of traffic comes from, etc. pretending that the site can survive on old users alone is kinda silly
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 4 at 13:21
  • I don’t see this change as a silver bullet, I see it more inline with the rep change to question votes that won’t have any significant impact on its own, short of pissing off a bunch of people who aren’t creating fresh new content anyway.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 4 at 13:23
  • 1
    @KevinB I feel it is quite shallow to think that "New users are where most of the answers come from" and even more that the new users that are pushed off by a 15 rep point requirement for voting are those who came here to post all those new quality answers we need to survive. As for the second comment I fear you too flipped cause and effect. Are you sure those "bunch of (sacrificial it seems, at least for the company) people" who dare "no create fresh new content" aren't doing so exactly because the are "pissed off"? You think pissing them off MORE will incentive them to post? Commented Apr 4 at 14:21
  • @KevinB "Oh, the company lied, they are doing what they said they wouldn't some months ago. I am so mad that I will post some quality content just to show them."... "totally" gonna happen. I fear we will disagree here, but if the intent of the company is - as you seem to suggest - to "dispose" the old burned out user angry for their lies and replace them with new, fresh unsuspecting victims... well... I fear they are up for an harsh call to reality. The old will work on alternatives and the new won't magically trust them. They are not Jeff or Joel ad SO hasn't the same good rep it had before Commented Apr 4 at 14:25
  • it doesn't matter, continue not posting quality content. Whether we do or don't isn't relevant to the success of the site/community. With no new influx of users the community will cease to exist. Continuing with the existing solutions that have resulted in a site that has been in decline for literally 10 years isn't going to fix the problem.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 4 at 14:34
39
votes

We are still pursuing this because stagnating participation on the network is a concern for all of us

I can see the site analytics, and have done some basic SEDE queries to know how bad the traffic drop is, but as I and others have said elsewhere, people aren't leaving because they can't vote. They're leaving because ChatGPT and similar LLMs are more attractive to the kind of experience and use-case they have (and that's fine- we're not the same thing), and because the learning curve is steep, and the onboarding and treatment by the company here are so bad.

While I'd love for more users to vote (including anonymously), you're not going to get those people back or make a real dent in the traffic problem like this.


We have [used] rep as a threshold to award privileges [... which] has made participating on the network in some of the most basic ways difficult.

It's really not that difficult. I'd say "most basic" just includes voting and flagging. That's just 15 rep. That's just seven approved edits. If you can put in one edit every two days, that's just two weeks. Or it's receiving one upvote and two accepted edits.

Honestly, the bar for basic participation is already so low. Posting Q&A and suggesting edits are unlocked at the lowest possible rep value (one rep).


Many of these changes are a result of your feedback.

There are easier ways to get a similar effect (I'm pretty sure I said this before).

The system already records anonymous votes. Instead of "undo"ing an anonymous vote in the UI (which teaches the voter "your vote doesn't matter. stop trying"), just let it display to the voter (and only that voter) as if their vote went through.


Hypothesis: Validate that allowing more users to vote will not increase fraud disproportionately.

Let's say a nice outcome occurs and voting fraud increases proportionately instead of disproportionately. Once you scale up to all logged-in users, here's how many mods you'd need to elect to not increase per-mod workload (I.e. to keep mod workload proportionate as well, with the simplifying assumption that fraud is uniformly distributed over users): At the last SEDE refresh, of users who accessed the site any time since the release of ChatGPT, 1,260,557 users have the upvote privilege, and 5,239,332 do not. 27 * 5,239,332 / 1,260,557 is 112. So 85 new mods. That should be easy and non-controversial to get, right?

*For a better estimate on increase in fraud, see What is the distribution of voting fraud over user rep and account age?.


We want our test plan to include the option to reverse the voting behavior of the users in the test group and the possibility to remove their privileges altogether

I'd expect them to get rolled back unconditionally (but still recorded in some side database in case non-experiment changes roll out with equivalent privilege mechanics to those of the experiment).

[... If and only if the house is on fire,] We will revert some, if not all, votes in the test user group

Why are the votes only being rolled back if the house is on fire? This is just an experiment. Why is are the effects of the experiment "escaping the experiment sandbox"?

(Catija did sort of already answer this here, but it doesn't satisfy me. with all the transaction / event data, you can roll back the votes on prod and do all the data analysis you want in a dev DB snapshot. and I believe that if possible (which it is here), an experiment should not leak its effects after the experiment has ended. you already have the machinery set up to recalculate vote-based things to boot).


Will the -1 rep cost be applied to test users? (assuming that this experiment will allow voting in both directions). (the answer is no, and I assume the cost will only be removed for test users, which I think is just obscene).

How will it work if they only have one rep? Will an attempt to downvote be blocked? Will it go through? (please no).

I hate that I feel the need to ask, but will the same normal limits on voting apply to these test users?

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    Considering the last election got a total of 6 candidates. 20 is still a big stretch. Commented Apr 3 at 19:59
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    IMX, even "I can't comment" is more important to new users than "I can't vote". Commented Apr 4 at 6:45
  • 3
    @KarlKnechtel in a magical world where everybody knows when and when not to comment (a world that does not exist. many people even with comment privs have never seen /help/privileges/comment in their lives), yes, that would be great for people like me when they were just starting out and wanting to help with questions that require more detail. but in that same ideal world, people asking questions would read How to Ask, etc. guess what point that brings me back to?
    – starball
    Commented Apr 4 at 6:50
35
votes

It seems your evaluation is mostly focused on voting fraud. But another harmful effect might be unhelpful voting. Voting is essential in gauging the quality of questions and answers, and it is important in giving feedback to users asking and answering questions.

New users might not be as experienced in what the objective of Stack Overflow is, what makes good questions and what makes good answers. In fact, it would really surprise me if new users would be equally good at this as experienced users, because I sure didn't know how to recognize high-quality questions when I started.

It is not sufficient to only assess if fraud doesn't increase. It is essential to assess that voting remains equally correlated with post quality.

Metrics that could be used as a surrogate for true quality metrics are voting by experienced users, close votes and deletion.

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    Absolutely! Voting is the signal for quality on SE sites. Adding too much noise to that signal will ruin it, which would pretty obviously be catastrophic for the network as a resource. Now that clearly won't happen in a couple months with a single experiment, but it's worth keeping in mind the power of the tools at play here. An increase in volume at the cost of quality needs to be considered as a serious threat.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Apr 3 at 22:00
24
votes

I would, personally, like to better ask why votes from users that don't meet the rep counts at the moment aren't already recorded (I'm not saying affect the score) and applied later. When you are a 1 rep user if you try to upvote a post you get met with this message:

Thanks for the feedback! You need at least 15 reputation to cast a vote, but your feedback has been recorded.

If my feedback has been recorded (it doesn't appear in my upvotes), then why can't my votes be added to the posts I voted on when(if) I meet the needed threshold at a later date (and perhaps reverted if I lose it?)? Then those users that choose to contribute in the future will have those votes applied when they do. If that user never contributes, then those votes aren't applied. It shouldn't even be too difficult to then tell if there's fraud going on as you can see have all the normal checks run against these votes, even though they aren't visually applied anywhere; they aren't affecting user scores, and the users aren't getting reputation, but those checks can still balance the book prior to them applying a score.

I'm not saying this is a solution, but giving all 1 rep users the ability to vote and affect scores, when they don't understand the system isn't going to help things. My crystal ball tells me that downvotes are going to be a thing of the past if this happens, as they'll be lost to the noise of "me too, me too, me too!!!"; if anything you should be encouraging people to vote down bad content; there's far too much that doesn't get the attention it deserves.

4
  • 10
    Not only is it stored, they know which "fake" votes came from registered users vs unregistered as well as how many were up/down, what posts they were on, etc. Total, for as long as the site has existed, only 864.3k came from registered users and it's 87.88% upvotes, which is lower than the 95% we get from users with enough rep to vote (presumably due to the different rep thresholds.) I would expect voting activity from this group to increase, if suddenly they knew their votes actually did something.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 3 at 15:53
  • note: I don't think daily vote limits (40*) are applied to anon votes. so there would need to be some talk about how to handle overflows (ignore them? try to distribute them over later days? make user go through their anon votes and recast as "real" votes when they earn vote privs?). still, I agree that somehow showing a user their anonymous votes as if they were real would mitigate feelings like "my votes don't matter. I should stop voting", and I agree that somehow "graduating" anon votes when vote privs are earned is a good idea.
    – starball
    Commented Apr 3 at 21:55
  • Honestly, if someone is hitting the 40 upvote cap these days, @starball , I'd be suspicious of fraud. Though, presumably, the date and time of the votes are recorded, so the first 40 votes of each day would be used if that occured (but again, I'd suggest if a user did reach that level often, then fraud is likely).
    – Thom A
    Commented Apr 3 at 22:05
  • 1
    @ThomA there are people who cast way more than 40 votes per day (though those are mostly downvotes). anyhow, my point wasn't to focus on fraud. it was to focus on how to enable "graduating" anon votes when people earn vote privs. though I have written loosely related to that topic in relation to mitigating fraud.
    – starball
    Commented Apr 3 at 22:36
22
votes

No, this doesn't make much sense.

Your explanation of the A/B testing and all that went into the greatest details and sounds like you put some serious work in, but it misses the most important part: is there any at least plausible connection to the premise? The premise was: How do we get more users? It was not: Will there be voter fraud, if we create better conditions for it?

In the times of who has the biggest data, it seems that the power of simple, rational thought is sometimes forgotten. Could we do some A/B test to figure out if grades go up, if we equip every 1st grader with a free 9mm handgun? Sure we could. Should we? Probably not. And do we really need to, just to end up with what we already know: that our "experiment" will not give us any actionable insights regarding the original purpose, other than that we shouldn't do such experiments? Again, no.

You say that there could be some voter fraud. Of course there will be. Let's just look at the now:

  1. Unregistered users don't even know they can't vote if they sign up. Really. Ask anyone. Did they know when signing up that they won't be able to vote? How about you ask existing users this question. Since you don't want to fend off new users by telling them about this, they only know it after they've signed up. I am still somewhat new and I was surprised by this after joining.

  2. Why do people sign up now? Giving an answer after lurking for years (1), asking a particular question (2), being part of a group they feel related to (3) and being present on a site that they think will help their job search (4) will all be among the top reasons. Maybe joining the site thinking "oh I hate this reply and I want to vote it down" or "this was so helpful, I'd love to click a thank-you button" is a strong incentive, too. Then they would already sign up as it is. See the first point.

  3. Most people having the right to vote already make sparse use of it, even though there are some gamification incentives like medals for voting. If you vote on enough questions, you can even get a golden internet medal. Despite this, there is an endless array of questions and answers nobody ever votes on, while some very old topics continuously draw the attention of votes. While this may not directly tell us anything, it gives some questions you could try answering, like: Do people more often than not find answers to questions they have, if the answers already exist? (This may also shine light on the duplicate issue). If not, is the reason that they don't search or is the reason that the search could be optimized? If both, could we at least work on the latter? Or, related: do you currently have a strategy how to make productive the extreme spread in the users depth of knowledge regarding topics discussed here; if not why not - if yes, is it working?

Who then are the additional people who would sign up to vote?

If you count out the expected amount that would join under normal conditions, it will be those that knew about the usual threshold in the first place, which are people who know about the mechanics of the site and in the vast majority that will be existing or previously registered users. And why would they join again just to vote, with a 2nd, 3rd, n'th account? Hm... what could be the reason?

Back to the actual premise, I think you just need to use available capital, hire a bunch of people, and work on the sites and their functionalities and visibility. Just two examples that seem way more plausible to get more users or higher user retention:

  • More visibility for Stacks other than the few that are very present. Each time I browse the other Stacks I find places that I had no clue existed and that never came up in any search results, when I looked into topics related to them. For instance, if I search for "endoplasmic reticulum" on Google, I don't get any hits for the Biology Stack Exchange site. And even if I specifically search for the highest viewed question that must be of popular interest: Why do I only breathe out of one nostril? I have to scroll quite a bit before getting a link to the site.

  • Possibly related to the former: Put some actual work in functionalities relevant to the specific stacks. For instance, I just found out that there is a chess stack. It is obvious this stack has not profited much from the extreme increase in online chess during the past couple of years. Why not? Hard to tell, but if I open a new question, there is no board editor or visible PGN/FEN importer. The one thing that exists was done by a user in their own time more than 10 years ago (thanks!), but it doesn't even show up as an option for new posts. There are people working on the stack in their free time - why not support them with proper, attractive tools?

3
  • 7
    The handgun example is a little too suggestive these days, but the basic premise gets my upvote. There are so many things you could do, and you chose this?
    – tripleee
    Commented Apr 4 at 8:12
  • 1
    For what it's worth, biology.se is the second hit on DDG.
    – terdon
    Commented Apr 4 at 15:43
  • 4
    I really, really like your suggestion of increasing work put into the other Stacks. There's so much value there, and leaving them to always sit on the sideline to work on the big 3 just feels like so, so much potential just left on the table.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Apr 4 at 18:15
22
votes

Of all the complaints I've heard about Stack Overflow from users over the years, both on the internet (on the network as both a user and mod and off it on other sites) and in Real Life™ (and I've been a professional dev since before SO existed so you better believe I've heard the full gamut of such complaints in the office over the years) I have never heard anyone cite the rep-requirement for voting as an issue, and that's not hyperbole - I mean never. I realise that's just anecdotal of course and in no way scientific, but this proposed test is about as scientific as homeopathy so turnabout is fair play I think.

I like to think I'm a rational person who will take evidence into account and weigh that above my own feelings and personal anecdotes so I've previously (in discussions between mods and CMs) asked what the basis is for the hypothesis that being unable to vote is a barrier to participation/user retention, but IIRC there's never been an answer, at least not one I've seen.

As other mods on this post have said there's been some fairly strenuous objections to this from multiple mods, SO and from network mods like myself but I think it's worth mentioning that it wasn't just flat opposition to this proposal, there was plenty of efforts from mods to workshop alternatives that could work towards the stated goal of converting visitors into users/members of the community and bring participation levels up. All of which got us nowhere, because for some reason this nonsensical juggernaut continues to be unstoppable.

And that's the really scary thing here - the company is so, absurdly, invested in this particular golden calf that when I see such incredibly vague "criteria" listed for the success or failure of the "experiment" that I think the potential for confirmation bias when interpreting the results is off the charts.

This means that it's going to take a clusterfudge of truly epic proportions for this to be deemed a failure, and I don't want that because that sort of dumpster fire will lead to inevitable lasting damage to the community long after the last "test" vote is reversed.

21
votes

Would users who gain voting privileges due to Test Users be considered Test Users themselves? You mention that "we have some scenarios in mind to reverse some or all of the voting behavior by the test group." but voting from the test group effects other users not part of the test group itself potentially giving these users voting privileges they didn't have these users can then vote and give other users privileges as well resulting in a snowball effect. Does the plan you have for reversing votes consider these problems?

Another problem is that the privilege system of the site implicitly drives users to want reputation, this means even without the users deciding to create a voting ring, etc. it is very easy for this to happen when no constraints are present. Some time ago the company had posted this question: The Stack Exchange reputation system: What's working? What's not? where it had received valuable feedback about the reputation system, why isn't that feedback being experimented upon rather than this "Let everyone vote" experiment?

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  • 3
    If User A(Test user) causes User B (an established user) to gain some privilege due to their upvote, they will only keep that in scenario A. If we have to roll back votes and those enabling votes are included because User A did not gain reputation from other established users before the end of the experiment, which would enable User A to keep them, then User B would lose that privilege when the votes were rolled back.
    – SpencerG StaffMod
    Commented Apr 3 at 15:18
  • 14
    @SpencerG that doesn't really answer my question let's say user A (test user) causes user B (not part of initial 30000 users in test group) to get the upvote privilege, later user B causes user C to gain some (any privilege) does user C keep their privileges in case of rollback? Has user B automatically been promoted to a "Test User"? Commented Apr 3 at 16:35
  • 1
    @AbdulAzizBarkat - What about user D? I only care about user D....I am presenting a serious question, in a humorous way, to illustrate the fact you raise a good point. Commented Apr 3 at 22:06
  • 6
    Yes, the question stands for user D, E, and so on as well. The basic thought is that if they haven't considered this fact their experiment will bubble out of the companies control with them lacking proper tooling to even revert it. Another point being if they have not considered this I don't believe whatever fraud detection tooling they've come up with would be any good. Commented Apr 3 at 23:23
  • 4
    And then what will users D and E think if their reputation suddenly goes down? Whats the plan for dealing with the wave of upset users when the rollback happens because their reputation suddenly dropped? Or will the company just rollback the rollback because they don't want to deal with the upset? Commented Apr 4 at 9:55
17
votes

Have you considered the possibility that removing any barrier to downvoting while keeping the reputation penalty will drive more users away than it will engage?

2
  • 6
    They don't consider anything. They do things as they think it's good for their communities, not what the communities really need and asks for. Commented Apr 3 at 18:18
  • inb4 "thanks for bringing that up! to solve that, we should remove the downvote cost!" (joking. I'm on the fence on whether I think downvote cost should be a thing. I don't have a problem with it existing)
    – starball
    Commented Apr 3 at 21:52
17
votes

I feel like this is an XY problem.

  • X: Stack Overflow needs to be more attractive and thus more profitable.
  • Y: Allow new users to vote so that they will feel more attached to the site.

My personal, emotional conclusion is that Stack Exchange would have solved X had they not ignored the community, not just this one case but multiple in the past. But what do I know?

15
votes

Are there any goals/plans with the shame on you for downvoting prompts as far as using them going forward, or is this purposely just something for the test and definitely not something you're planning on continuing. This doesn't seem to be covered in any of your rational or end goal scenarios.

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  • 10
    And will there be any similar data gathering on why people upvote? Commented Apr 3 at 14:50
  • 4
    Right now, it's just being used for data-collecting purposes. We plan to discuss it more after the experiment's conclusion to determine whether it's helpful, should be kept, expanded on, etc. I am not aware of any long-term plans surrounding it.
    – SpencerG StaffMod
    Commented Apr 3 at 15:38
  • 7
    I can't understand what this answer is saying. Is it asking a question? If so, a question mark would be helpful. I can't understand how to parse the first sentence. What is a "shame on you for downvoting prompts as far as using them going forward"? This seems to be assuming some context that I am lacking. Can you edit your answer to explain what you're trying to say? It might help to break down the first sentence into multiple pieces, and explain new concepts (e.g., define what is "the shame on you for ..." before first use of that phrase).
    – D.W.
    Commented Apr 3 at 17:09
  • 1
    @D.W. i'd rather not, respectfully, the feedback has been received the way i intended it to be
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 3 at 17:14
  • 1
    @SpencerG Have the team designing this prompt considered that merely asking for these reasons might communicate to users that the three reasons they should downvote (for answers specifically) are the three listed: didn't work for me, is wrong, works but there's a better way? Are those reasons that the team considers correct reasons for downvoting? Comprehensive reasons? It doesn't seem like this prompt is an innocuous intervention. Commented Apr 3 at 17:25
  • 7
    I would prefer the prompt to actually be anonymous feedback for the author, and to be worded that way, as then it'd be more in line with providing helpful feedback rather than a justification for taking an action. The current prompts very much resembles the "Why was this immaculate post downvoted!" comments we get every day, as opposed to requesting actionable feedback... even if privately the author never sees it during the experiment.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 3 at 17:28
15
votes

Please consider an experiment with making answer downvotes free instead.

This will likely be more valuable for our new friends at Google by taming the harm of getting AI-generated answers into the data sold to them.

5
  • 3
    ("Downvoting friction" part of the original proposal looks worth keeping. Done right it probably may further evolve into useful post annotations.)
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 3 at 18:39
  • The data on SO is available for everyone though public licensing. Selling it to Google is kind of like selling distant stars out there in the universe to dumb millionaires - selling what you don't own to dummies who don't realize that you don't own it in the first place.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 5 at 13:13
  • @Lundin some data involving (even anonymised) details on voting isn't freely available. "How many upvotes were cast in mumps tag by users under 99 rep points who joined site less than a year ago and visited it more than 17 times since joining"
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 5 at 13:20
  • What does that matter if you can't use the actual post content to train an AI with anyway? If some AI starts quoting SO posts without attribution, then I believe that's a license infringement?
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 5 at 13:32
  • I merely pointed that not all data is freely available
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 5 at 13:46
12
votes

A loophole introduced four years ago allows for this to be abused in an extreme way

Back in 2020, there was a change made to the criteria under which users are allowed to delete their profiles immediately without having to wait 24 hours for the deletion to be processed. The prior criteria to allow deleting one's profile immediately was that they'd neither made more than one post nor cast more than one vote. After a troll began abusing the former criterion to make a troll post then delete their profile to prevent moderators from being able to suspend them in time, the posting criterion was changed to no longer allow immediate profile deletion if one's ever made even a single post on the site.

However, as part of the change, the criterion for never having voted more than once was altogether removed. The stated reason for this removal was that the reputation requirements for voting would make the criterion moot since a user will have to have posted at least once (or made several approved suggested edits) to be able to vote. (Ignore the fact that the association bonus allows users to vote without having posted.)

You can already tell that this experiment would make this removal no longer moot and suddenly completely relevant. It's made worse by the fact that users who haven't posted but have cast a large enough number of votes to ordinarily trigger a staff review of their voting activity for fraud and other cases where one's votes should not be preserved after deletion will not have their votes reviewed and they'll just be removed.

It's mentioned in a comment on the question that suspended users will still be prevented from voting. However, in much the same manner as the troll mentioned above, another troll or other abuser could come by and cast a lot of votes as part of a voting ring (for example), then delete their account immediately to prevent moderators from being able to suspend them. While deleting one's account without a staff member manually preserving their votes will cause those votes to be removed, one could keep this cycle up to keep the reputation going. Those removed votes would also not be auditable and included as part of the experiment data.

If this experiment is to continue, please take action against this loophole. The best thing to do would be to trigger a scheduled deletion for any users who've ever cast any votes (including just one), and to log votes belonging to profiles that have later been removed and ensure they're part of the experiment data.

Alternatively, you could just not run this experiment and not have to worry about formerly-partially-mooted things suddenly becoming relevant.

1
  • 1
    I believe regardless it would be good to just close that loophole, including for the association bonus - no immediate deletion if a user has voted more than once.
    – Redz
    Commented Apr 5 at 7:14
11
votes

I might as well put my two cents in. How about rather than bringing in an influx of new users and encouraging them to vote, encourage the users who already can vote to vote more?

I see a lot of well-written answers to obsolete but answerable questions daily that don't get recognised at all, even by the OP. This often happens because the OP doesn't know how to vote or how to accept an answer, both of which could be solved with better user onboarding (as others have mentioned).

Same for really low-quality questions that just stagnate over time (which are inevitably left for the curators to clean up, making their job harder.)

If voting's what you (the company) really want, publicize it a bit more. I suspect many new users won't even grasp the opportunity to vote that fast - or they'll go overboard with fraud. Either way. People who already have earned the right to vote should be the ones voting for a major part of question and answer scores, not new users who don't even have to ask or answer questions before they can start madly clicking buttons on the screen.

Here's an example. I have a friend who barely knows how to code. I sent them a link to a Stack Overflow question that answered their problem. Upon opening it, they immediately tried to upvote all the answers, saying 'Hey, this is helpful!' despite not knowing or trying any of them (some they didn't even understand)

And this all goes without mentioning that you (the company) went back on your word. Again. On the moderation strike page for results (thanks starball), it is very clearly stated that SE would take into account community feedback.

Based on the discussions on this question and discussions I've seen before, it doesn't look like this is happening at all. So yeah. That's my two cents.

3
  • 5
    stagnant low-quality posts also make the search experience worse. I talked to some peers recently and asked them their thoughts on SO. they said often the google search results aren't helpful (partly due to misleading, poor titles). re: "OP doesn't know how" wouldn't it be great if there were Help Center pages for that? (oh wait!)
    – starball
    Commented Apr 4 at 6:14
  • "Obsolete" questions shouldn't be answered just because they're answerable. Commented Apr 4 at 7:21
  • 2
    @KarlKnechtel fair, but I'm talking about ones that have already recieved good quality answers deserving of recognition. It is fair that not all questions should be answered just because they're answerable - but if people choose to spend time on that, why not?
    – Redz
    Commented Apr 4 at 10:32
4
votes

I can hardly object against doing such tests because ultimately real life experiments can give valuable data and insights. I like that you are bold and want to try it out.

However, I'm also deeply concerned about a lack in this scientific approach and that is missing success criteria. How do you know that the experiment was a success? What are your success criteria and what should actually sensible success criteria be? It's not clear at all from this announcement.

I hope it's not number of votes because they will surely increase. I hope it's something like number of useful votes minus number of random, noise votes or potentially even with a higher weight for the noise votes. But I doubt it because that would be difficult to estimate probably. It seems you only want to concentrate on fraud, but that is only one aspect and not the major one.

The major aspect for me is that non-experts will cast more often non-informative votes and that will make the score less useful in the end.

To stay within the narrative, an active community that is doing the wrong things can actively destroy itself. Did you consider this? On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong, but how will we know?

2
votes

So am I to understand that you collected data on why people don't participate and one of the most significant reasons was that they wanted to vote on posts and couldn't? Or was it because they couldn't earn enough reputation to get the privileges they wanted because no-one was upvoting their posts?

I'm still unclear as to how this change is intended to increase participation. If it were me, I would probably start by removing the reputation threshold for commenting and chatting to get people more connected with the community instead of tainting the scoring of all the content on SO.

2
  • Why not both ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 5 at 14:47
  • 1
    @KevinB Frankly, there are a bunch of activities that are gated behind reputation that make no sense. Like, what harm is there in letting people see the vote counts? I think half of the "privileges" should be things everyone can do regardless of reputation and moderators should be able to suspend a user's access to that particular feature if the user abuses it (like they can with chat and review queues). If you're nasty in comments, you don't get to write comments for a while. If you're vandalizing posts with edits, you get a time out from editing.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Apr 5 at 15:37
-28
votes

I really like requiring people to explain why they downvote something.

The front page is full of questions being down-voted, for no reason, and without explanation, or comment.

  • questions that are useful
  • questions that are clear
  • questions that show research effort
  • questions that are programming related
  • questions that have a non-opinion-based answer

People just drive-by downvote. No explanation. No repercussion.

Hopefully having to explain why you're downvoting will stop the hostile, unwelcome, mean-spirited, inappropriate, downvotes.

Because of these people: Stackoverflow, and the world, is worse off.

30
  • 18
    I'm downvoting this answer because it attributes meaning to downvotes and presumes them to be hostile, mean spirited etc. and I disagree with that. Commented Apr 4 at 16:32
  • 5
    There's no way to know why someone voted the way they did (unless they tell you), if you feel the post was useful and didn't deserve any downvotes, just upvote and move on. If you still want to attribute malice to such votes try applying Hanlon's razor and attribute incompetence instead. Commented Apr 4 at 16:40
  • 1
    "If you feel the post was useful and didn't deserve any downvotes, just upvote and move on." That is the problem. If the person didn't like the question, they should just move on. A down-vote, at its fundamental level is an insult. It's them voicing their displeasure over the question. If the question is off-topic (which does rarely happen), EXPLAIN WHY and vote to close. If it's a duplicate (which does happen), then point that out and vote to close. But to down-vote, with nothing to help the questioner improve, is why SO has its reputation of being an awful place. Which it is.
    – Ian Boyd
    Commented Apr 4 at 16:54
  • 1
    "If you still want to attribute malice to such votes try applying Hanlon's razor and attribute incompetence instead." Precisely. And by making the person think about why they're downvoting, and articulate it, maybe it will make them a better human being. Or, at the very least, it will make Stackoverflow a better place. I'm out here fighting to make stackoverflow better, and to explain the limits of all human knowledge, and then you have gumpy people down-voting and closing when it should not be down-voted or closed. And it's awful to see what has become of SO.
    – Ian Boyd
    Commented Apr 4 at 16:56
  • 2
    A lot of times questions are not duplicates. There may be another question that has an accepted answer that can be used to solve the current question, but that doesn't make the question a duplicate; it makes the answer a duplicate. And to see someone come to SO to reach out for help, and are time and again met with venom, vitriol, and misery. It's just awful.
    – Ian Boyd
    Commented Apr 4 at 17:04
  • 10
    It isn’t useful to simply state why you downvoted something, as the prompts demoed above do, rather, what would be useful is requesting feedback for the op. Accusatory comments and answers like yours and the suggested prompts in the question aren’t constructive, they don’t lead to change or improvements, instead it drives division.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 4 at 17:06
  • 2
    It absolutely is useful to state why someone is getting down-votes. If i have a question that is getting down-votes, then i can edit the question to eliminate their concern.
    – Ian Boyd
    Commented Apr 4 at 17:12
  • 2
    I know it. People simply hate being better, doing better, and making SO better. Every time suggest being better, people get quite upset. It is our privilege to make Stackoverflow better
    – Ian Boyd
    Commented Apr 4 at 17:54
  • 13
    "If the question is off-topic (which does rarely happen)" you sound like you have never used the site. Off topic questions are anything but rare (not including low quality questions that don't meet the standards) In ideal world people would leave useful feedback. However, we live in real world where often enough when you do leave such feedback you are greeted with insults or your constructive feedback will be flagged as unfriendly or even rude or abusive. Wat you call drive-by downvotes are often done by people that have been burned by leaving feedback way too often.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 4 at 21:26
  • 10
    I don't see how leaving feedback in form of clicking some checkmark will give more meaningful feedback to the users that need feedback and will not at the same time made users that do vote more irritated by the whole process, which may lead to more drive-by downvotes just to prove their point.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 4 at 21:30
  • 5
    Hmm, 172 downvotes over 15.5 years.... hardly any duplicates or off-topic questions. Please, how do I access that version of this site that you seem to have access to?
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Apr 4 at 23:26
  • 11
    I also don't understand this one-sided hatred of downvotes (negative feedback). Why are unexplained upvotes not subjected to this as well? We want quality, right? Praising people for nonsense is hardly a way to achieve that. The downvote signals the difference between noone caring and the post being objectively wrong.
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Apr 4 at 23:36
  • 2
    "A down-vote, at its fundamental level is an insult." - an unresearched, incomplete, misspelled, entry-level question to a problem which is exhaustively documented on the internet on sites which can easily be found by copypasting the title of the question into google is, at its fundamental level, an insult. Downvotes are one tool to deal with this insulting content and get rid of it.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Apr 5 at 13:54
  • 3
    @IanBoyd upvotes will never lead to those actions, because upvotes don't do that. reopen/undelete votes do. Upvotes are intended to come over time from people who find the question and or it's answers useful.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 5 at 14:54
  • 2
    downvotes also don't lead to closure, and comments don't lead to deletion.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 5 at 14:56

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