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Update: January 10, 2022:

The first iteration of the guidelines for articles is now in the Help Center, and the new Article Creation tool for Collectives is live as of today.

Update: December 29, 2021:

I've updated this question to reflect what I believe is consensus among those who have discussed in the answers and comments. If I have misinterpreted, please feel free to call it out. Because of the need to deploy the Article Creation tool, I need to start to bring this comment period to a close. Does this mean that the guidelines are "locked" and can not be changed? Of course not. As with almost everything we do, these guidelines are iterative and the community owns them. My involvement here should only be considered as an attempt to spur things along - this does not imply that the company is claiming ownership over the guidelines. To be clear: these are just like any other guidelines here, and can be iterated upon, updated, and changed as needed.

Sometime during the week of January 10th, we'll transition these guidelines over to the help text pages, and deploy the Article tool.

I wish to thank everyone who contributed to this discussion for their time, for their skepticism, and for being able to see past that skepticism. And as always, please know how much we (the company, the staff, the whole darned world) appreciate all the work you put into building this site.

(Original post follows)

Before reading this post, may I ask that you please read Teresa’s post today (The Foundations of Collectives and its Future) very thoroughly?


With that out of the way (and I think it’s critical to understand that history to see how we get to this point), let’s talk through the goals for this post and the work already done.

As background, when we introduced Articles on Collectives, some community members self-organized to create a set of Guidelines. This is, to steal a phrase, A Good Thing. I want to encourage community ownership over these Guidelines and guidelines. In addition to that self-organization, I introduced a conversation about the types of articles that we had identified, to find out if there were use cases we had missed.

What has happened so far?

Here is a summary of what they have accomplished so far: First, community discussion (led largely by EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica) led to three questions that were exposed. These three questions are things that we have debated a great deal internally, and I lay out after each what I think our feeling is, but I’m looking forward to hearing more from you about them.

As this all happened, our team has been building what we’re calling the “Article Proposal Flow” - it’s not far from being ready to go. This is exciting, because it allows collective members to draft their own articles, accept feedback on them, and submit them for inclusion in the collective.

The three questions that were exposed:

  1. Your article is in another castle: should link-only articles be allowed?

    Staff feeling: No. Link-only articles are not acceptable. Content must be resident on the collective. However, it does not necessarily need to be (but ideally is) content written exclusively for the collective. That is, repurposed articles would be allowed, but they must be resident on Stack Overflow, in the collective. It’s also important to recognize that anything posted to our site is licensed under the Creative Commons license as well. (Guideline 2.5 updated below).

  2. Is it acceptable to have 'thanks' in an article?

    Staff feeling: It depends on the context. If an article solicited opinions on something, and found them helpful, it might be reasonable to hear a “thanks” to the community for jumping in to the prior article. Outside of a situation where there was a substantive piece of work done, though, we would encourage article writers to not include “thanks”. (Guideline 2.11 updated, below).

  3. Are articles allowed to be off-topic?

    Staff feeling: Articles should be germane to the topics included within the collective, and should relate to one of the tags that is included within the collective, and within the greater, already established scope of SO. (Guideline 2.3 updated, below).

Next, we discussed the proposed types of articles that would be included: knowledge articles, and how-to guides.

Gaps

We have also identified some significant gaps in the proposed Guidelines, which we aim to close through this process as well. Outstanding questions for us include:

GAP 1 - What is the role of site moderators in collectives, and what should their accessibility level to articles be? What expectations exist of them, and are they appropriately resourced to fulfill those expectations? (Guideline 4.1)

GAP 2 - In case of a dispute between the author of an article and a client company, what is the correct escalation process to get to a positive outcome? I suspect that this will involve moderator teams communicating with Community Managers, but I think we should evaluate some potential possibilities. (Guideline 4.2)

GAP 3 - The role of the feedback button in articles: is it to give feedback on the topic of the article, the content of the article, or can it be used for anything related to collectives (broadly construed)? If constrained to the topic of the article or the content of the article, what is the appropriate path to give feedback about the collective to either Stack Overflow or the client company?

GAP 4 - Additional use cases: How to (and whether we should) allow for things like sharing best practices on a technical topic, comparing two or more technical implementations, and presenting the real-world use of a technology (i.e., case study/novel use case). (Guideline 4.3)

GAP 5 - Why articles? (And why not self-answered Q&A?)

We explored articles for Stack Overflow after hearing in research sessions that long-form content, paired with the system of trust on the site, was potentially a useful feature. They cover different ground than Q&A in two ways:

  • Knowledge articles cover topics too broad or open-ended for a single Q&A. They may compare the pros and cons of different kinds of implementations or approaches, and may be more subjective than is the norm in Q&A, provided opinion is backed by solid evidence.

  • How-to guides likely offer more than the answer to a single question, providing multiple steps (and potential pitfalls) on the path to accomplishing a technical goal. While it’s totally possible some overlap will occur, we see articles as being a home for content that would be too wide of a scope to cover usefully in Q&A format.


Next Steps

I’d also like to be transparent that we are approaching this set of Guidelines with three primary stakeholders: Stack Overflow (the company), the Community, and clients. We have done extensive research into the clients’ needs and will be exposing what we’ve learned from some of that as we talk about these proposed Guidelines.

I’m very interested in hearing some thoughts from this community - from you - on these proposals, but also in identifying holes in what is already identified.

A couple of thoughts on participation:

Proposed Guideline 3.0 has already been dealt with: we took announcements out of the scope of collectives at this point. So I think we can put that topic aside for now.

If you have feedback about any of the other proposed Guidelines, I invite you to leave an answer (probably one per person, with all of your suggestions for the Guidelines incorporated within) and tell us what you think. This includes suggestions for new Guidelines that we can discuss and consider adding to the finalized set of Guidelines.

Through community work, a set of proposed Guidelines was advanced (which I have grouped into families below):

—— Begin guidelines ——

We explored articles for Stack Overflow after hearing in research sessions that long-form content, paired with the system of trust on the site, was potentially a useful feature. Articles cover different ground than Q&A in two ways:

  • Knowledge articles cover topics too broad or open-ended for a single Q&A. They may compare the pros and cons of different kinds of implementations or approaches, and may be more subjective than is the norm in Q&A, provided opinion is backed by solid evidence.

  • How-to guides likely offer more than the answer to a single question, providing multiple steps (and potential pitfalls) on the path to accomplishing a technical goal. While it’s totally possible some overlap will occur, we see articles as being a home for content that would be too wide of a scope to cover usefully in Q&A format.

Guidelines to prevent spam:

1.0 - (References) Articles must back up their claims with facts and references.

Guidelines related to topics and content:

2.0 - (Fully discuss content) Articles should contain sufficient context for the problem that they are intending to address. They should focus on a practical problem that programmers actually face. Articles must fully address the problem they are intending to discuss. Readers should be able to get a clear understanding of how to solve their problem from reading the article.

(2.1 was merged into 2.0)

2.2 - (Reasonable length) Topics that would require extremely lengthy articles to address in full should ideally be split into multiple articles. If there is other context required, the articles should clearly indicate what context is needed.

2.3 - (On topic & within scope) Articles should be germane to the topics included within the collective, and should relate to one of the tags that is included within the collective, and within the greater, already established scope of Stack Overflow. Articles may be about any of the following, provided that they are clearly related to the topic of the collective:

  • Algorithms
  • Tools or software libraries used primarily by programmers
  • Specific programming problems

Articles cannot be about any of the following:

  • General computing
  • Network or server administration
  • Legal advice
  • Opinion-based topics
  • Hypothetical or speculative articles, rants, etc.
  • Anything not directly related to programming
  • Programming topics not directly related to the topic of the collective

(2.4 was merged into 2.3)

2.5 - (Links within articles) Link-only articles are not acceptable. If they contain links, they must have sufficient context, and content must be resident on the collective. However, it does not necessarily need to be (but ideally is) content written exclusively for the collective. That is, repurposed articles would be allowed, but they must be resident on Stack Overflow, in the collective. It’s also important to recognize that anything posted to our site is licensed under the Creative Commons license as well.

2.6 - (Titles) The title must summarize the content, without being misleading.

2.7 - (Language) Articles must be in the primary language of the target site that they accompany (currently English, since collectives "accompany" the main SO site; if there's ever a collective for another site, like the Russian SO site, it must be in the primary language of that site). Articles should use good grammar, spelling, and punctuation to the best of the writer's ability.

2.8 - (Code of Conduct) Articles must follow the Code of Conduct; abusive or insulting language will not be tolerated. All users must be treated with respect, as should anyone who is mentioned within an article.

2.9 - (Self-promotion) Articles may not engage in excessive or undisclosed self-promotion.

2.10 - (Content Duplication) Articles should not be exact duplicates of existing Q&As or articles.

2.11 - (Salutations, thanks, and closings) As with the rest of Stack Overflow, the use of the phrases “thank you” and similar salutations and closings/signatures are not considered best practice. However, there are times when this may be appropriate. For instance, if an article solicited opinions and the author found them helpful, it might be reasonable to hear a “thanks” to the community for jumping in to the prior article. Outside of a situation where there was a substantive piece of work done, though, article writers are encouraged to not include “thanks”.

Guidelines related to administration

4.1 - (Moderators) Stack Overflow’s moderators remain the community’s “exception” handlers, and the arbiters of these guidelines. They continue to be vested with the authority to moderate content within collectives, though they are encouraged to be sensitive to the needs of the collective’s sponsoring organization. In case of dispute, issues can (as always) be escalated to the community management team.

4.2 - (Recognized members) In addition to moderators, each collective has “recognized members” who are granted additional (limited) ability to provide input on articles that are in a draft phase.

4.3 - (Use cases) While Collectives are in a beta phase, community members are encouraged to remember that there may be some experimentation around potential additional use cases. Feedback is welcome in these cases, as we all get used to this new content type.

Guidelines that are no longer needed

3.0 - (Deprecated) We need to make a decision about product announcements, news, app store policies, etc. This Guideline was removed because the announcements feature was removed from Collectives.

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    Another potential gap you appear to have missed, reputation gains/losses don't appear to fit in very well with what articles are expected to be (especially if you plan on allowing the occasional "thanks" article), and also are a potential route for reputation which is (as of present) restricted to a very small subset of the user base. Commented Nov 29, 2021 at 19:52
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    Thanks for addressing the community's concerns. However, it looks like there's still a lot of work ahead of you. These gaps you have identified are serious issues. I would love to see Articles expand into something useful - they have the potential to - but before it happens these gaps must be addressed.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Nov 29, 2021 at 20:14
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    I'd argue the one niche articles would fill most appropriately would be announcements, the one thing that's been outlawed entirely. Announcements, Advertorials, etc. Things that 100% do not belong in Q&A. Trying to make them follow all the same rules as Q&A makes them redundant.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 29, 2021 at 21:23
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    First and foremost: thank you for following up on the promise to come back with the discussion about guidelines and principles of articles, this is appreciated, especially after the concerning development with infomercial articles following Intel joining the fray. The list looks reasonable, but there is a guideline that is concerning - 2.9. It would be nice to know what would be considered "excessive or undisclosed" and whether an article can be considered overly promoting not only the author, but the company behind the collective (and if not - why?).
    – 0Valt
    Commented Nov 29, 2021 at 21:35
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    @Nick - I should have said it clearly here: we are rolling out a new article proposal flow that opens up article writing to all collectives members. Does that help to address your concerns?
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 2:51
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    Thanks (at the risk of this comment being deleted) for the transparency and acknowledging the gaps. Gap #1 is probably the biggest one -- you mention moderators but it's bigger than the diamonds. It's many of us who volunteer our time to moderate and curate. You can't expect volunteers to help moderate your for-profit community. Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 5:17
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    Improving and involving content by editing is an important part of Q&A. Here there is nothing about that for Articles. How is their content kept uptodate? Will editing of Articles be possible? Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 7:55
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    After re-reading the rules I wonder where the difference to Q&A is really. It sounds so similar. The major difference may be the length, but then you speak of splitting articles if they are too long. Maybe as a commentary to this, could you add a little section on when writing an Article would really be preferable over writing (potentially self-answered) Q&A? That would probably help in getting to know the feature better and to guide potential content creators. Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 9:33
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    @blackgreen currently, yes. However, very shortly we'll be rolling out a workflow that allows other collectives members to propose and write articles for collectives.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 16:54
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    @Trilarion - that seems reasonable. Let me see what I can do. :-)
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 16:55
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    @Trilarion - I'm about to add a new section that staff has drafted about "why articles" instead of Q&A. Can you review and let me know what you think?
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 19:05
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    @Philippe Very nice. I like it. It's a clear delineation to Q&A. Basically the main difference is the "focus". Q&A focuses on a single problem. Articles focus one multiple related problems or larger problems. Q&A can be answered by concise answers. Articles are answered by lengthy, multi-step answers. And because they may also present only one answer, they might additionally be somewhat opinionated. I'm happy with it but want to add that the Articles that were published so far, maybe didn't really cover broad topics. They could also have been Q&A mostly. Articles may want to become longer. Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 19:40
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    Trilarion, there's an article suggestion tool headed out; it's not exactly the functionality that you discuss but I think it will help. I agree content production is a heavy lift. I also think that getting rules adoption (once we agree on them) is a non-trivial task.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 11:20
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    @skomisa Many would consider it rude to call someone out in public for something very subjective like this rather than handling it discreetly such as with an edit.
    – charlietfl
    Commented Dec 4, 2021 at 14:01
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    @skomisa - Thanks (sincerely) for the feedback. I'll make a change to reflect that. :-)
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Dec 6, 2021 at 13:35

9 Answers 9

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Rule: NO REPUTATION

Articles can probably survive in the Community Wiki form. That is, allowing the community to edit and maintain content, but without gaining any reputation.


Currently, Articles break the general rule for any part of the site: If there is a place on a site where users can gain reputation, then such place needs to be open for all contributors* and under strict moderation. Anything else will have a negative impact on the rest of the site.

* To be more specific, the exception to the above rule is protected questions that don't allow users with less than 10 reputation to post, to prevent low-quality posts in highly visible posts.

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    I agree that articles should have no reputation, but IMO this should be the case even if articles were open to all users (which was on the road map of the original announcement but I can find no mention of it in this post, no idea if that's still on the table). Giving rep for an article would mean articles get flooded with low-effort content to farm rep, and is the wrong incentive for this kind of content.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 10:37
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    @l4mpi I though that I covered that with Community Wiki part. I clarified the second paragraph, that is more general rule than what I think should be done with Articles.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 10:43
  • This overlooks the fact that lots of users answer off-topic, duplicate, VLQ questions willingly, gain reputation for it, and provided they get +3 for 60 days even if the posts are later deleted they keep the rep either way. So the "under strict moderation" part doesn't actually hold up... (By comparison, in terms of MSO incendiary, simplistic, populist rhetoric, also yields its gains - with no moderation in sight.)
    – bad_coder
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:16
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    @bad_coder I am aware of that many low quality posts remain on site. Point is they are all open for strict moderation, it is just that we don't have the capacity to moderate all that is needed. The "strict moderation" part here is about the principle, not the ability to really handle all posts. That is separate problem.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:21
  • @DalijaPrasnikar in your post I would have liked to see pinpointed what can and can't be moderated in articles (by comparison with the normal Q&A model).
    – bad_coder
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:27
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As it stands, this whole idea really does come across as Documentation 2.0, but this time without moderators and actual experts. One of the major problems with Documentation was that anyone could post any random low-quality content they wanted.

The mentioned rules here were all about the scope of articles but not about the quality of the actual content. As I understand it, the requirement to post an article is to pass the paywall. Therefore I wonder if it wouldn't make more sense to also place restrictions on the author, in order to prevent Documentation 2.0.

How can we tell that they actually know what they are talking about? "I'm working for a big tech company that paid to post this" is perhaps the worst metric ever heard of when it comes to judging actual technical expertise and quality of content.

It would be sensible if the person posting is required to demonstrate some minimum of technical domain knowledge and insight in the SO platform. Perhaps require them to have a bronze badge in the topic they are about to post an article about?

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    "It would be sensible if the person posting is required to demonstrate some minimum of technical domain knowledge and insight in the SO platform. Perhaps require them to have a bronze badge in the topic they are about to post an article about?" - disagree; it's impractical as not every expert has an SO account and asking them to spend weeks (or months in low-traffic tags) posting answers so they can post an article is a non-starter. Furthermore, all content should be judged on its own merits, not based on the clout of its author. Agree that LQ articles are a concern but this isn't a solution.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 14:50
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    @l4mpi They can post their articles as self-answered Q&A until then. Requiring someone to be active for a few weeks before they can post articles isn't too much to ask - what are those companies even doing here if they don't have a presence on the network nor seek to gain one? If a company like Google can't find a single employee who got a relevant bronze badge or at least some 2k-3k rep, then they really ought to be asking themselves wth they are doing.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:19
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    don't get me wrong, I would prefer if collectives and/or articles disappeared entirely. But that's not going to happen, and I'd be surprised if SE would agree to ask paying customers to ensure their subject matter experts grind SO rep/badges. Furthermore, the requirement has no tangible benefits in itself - if an article is great, the rep of its author is irrelevant; if it's bad, it doesn't get better if the author has a gold badge. Gating articles behind a badge or rep threshold would make more sense if SE allows everyone to write articles, but not with the current system.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:38
  • @l4mpi "...would make more sense if SE allows everyone to write articles..." -> the upcoming changes to articles would let everyone (that has joined the collective) draft and submit articles for the collective to publish. assuming there's people in the collective with the access to review these articles that actually do it, everyone within reason will be able to write articles.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:44
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    @l4mpi It's not just to ensure expertise but also to ensure that they have a clue about the site culture and don't drop some smelly product advertisements disguised as technical blogs here. In particular I don't think we want to see "benefits of technology x" market barf.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:45
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    The part about finding employees with relevant rep/badges is a fallacy btw - you don't want some random user with a relevant badge to be the gateway for articles written by everyone else, do you? The issue is that specific employees of the collectives companies who potentially designed entire things that have SO tags might not have an SO account yet, and create one so they can write some in-depth articles about their products. For example, if any of the GO language creators showed up to write articles, it would be ridiculous to expect them to go earn a badge first.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:46
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    As an analogy, suppose your company wants to advertise on Facebook but you haven't gotten a single employee who uses Facebook nor anyone who wants to start using it. Then your options as a company would be: either hire someone who knows how to use Facebook, or alternatively don't advertise on Facebook if you don't have a clue what that site is about. There are faster ways to burn money if you have too much of it - just use a lighter.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:47
  • @Lundin agree entirely on the ads, but that is IMO an entirely different issue. Nothing stops someone with a bronze badge from posting an ad in a collective. Also, I would challege the assumption that a bronze badge means the user knows about the site culture.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:48
  • @KevinB I know that was on the road map but have seen no mention of it here or in Theresas post, is there any specific new info about that?
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:49
  • Yes, philip's post mentions it, and he's mentioned it several times recently as being something coming very soon.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:50
  • 2
    @l4mpi A bronze badge means that you must have 20+ answers with a total of 100+ score in a certain topic. It's kind of hard to achieve that without knowing the site's culture.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:51
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    @Lundin "It's kind of hard to achieve that without knowing the site's culture" - that's a good one. Let's just say I know quite a few users with all kinds of badges who do various things that I would describe as detrimental to the site's culture.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:53
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    it's better than nothing whatsoever, considering we're going to get articles and collectives regardless. No solution is 100% fool proof other than no solution at all.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:56
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Rule: NO ADS

Seriously, can we keep product placement out of these Articles? It really detracts from the content and makes me not want to look at any more of them.

GAP 1 - What is the role of site moderators in collectives, and what should their accessibility level to articles be? What expectations exist of them and are they appropriately resourced to fulfill those expectations?

Moderators should have full access to taking action on articles or members posting them. They are entrusted with protecting the community, and should be trusted to only take appropriate action with regards to this feature. If that is an issue, perhaps push Collectives to somewhere which is not directly tied to Stack Overflow itself.

GAP 2 - In case of a dispute between the author of an article and a client company, what is the correct escalation process to get to positive outcome? I suspect that this will involve mod teams communicating with Community Managers, but I think we should evaluate some potential possibilities.

Content will need to be moderated, just like in any other situation. It shouldn't require a Community Manager, they will literally run out of time dealing with these. Trust the site Moderators. The onus should be on the content creator to provide quality content, not the client company; if there is a dispute, the author is the one who should defend their content. Paying collective members should have localized (similar to teams) Moderator privileges.

GAP 3 - The role of the feedback button in articles: is it to give feedback on the topic of the article, the content of the article, or can it be used for anything related to collectives (broadly construed). If constrained to the topic of the article or the content of the article, what is the appropriate path to give feedback about the collective to either Stack Overflow or the client company?

Comments are kind of useless. Over time they will degrade in highly viewed posts into a long set of outdated references. Feedback could be offered in the form of an answer posted which only members of the Collective can view (or 10k users for moderation purposes), but this is also a sort of weak idea, in that the article should be able to simply stand on its own.

GAP 4 - Additional use cases: how (and should) to allow for things like Sharing best practices on a technical topic, Comparing two or more technical implementations, and presenting the real-world use of a technology (ie, case study/novel use case).

This sounds like an endless amount of duplication and bike shedding.

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    I suspect at least some of the value here is in product placement. The trick is making it actually work for everyone. Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 11:42
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    This is not the place for product placement. "Value" in terms of worth here is negative if it drives away use of the site or degrades the quality of content. The revenue of Stack Overflow is purely based in its ability to be used, and the quality of its content. We used to have people here who knew that, who founded this company with those ideals. Maybe the next ownership and leadership will understand the difference, because this set certainly does not.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 20:14
  • I suspect the 'middle' ground would be to convince companies for the 'previlege' of posting things we'd actually want to read. As per Theresa's post, making revenue is non negotiable. The question is Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 20:45
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    To note, making revenue is entirely different than making a profit. This feature undoubtedly is in the red. The question is... is it worth it to lose money and harm the community with the sole intent of creating more revenue? At some point there will be no more savings left, and no more profit left, with which to inflate revenue. That is when they will sell. It is the true colors of a poorly run company bent on only making itself and its interests more money; and it is written all over this current set of people.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 3, 2021 at 22:33
  • Well - that's nothing new . Careers was pretty much a lot of that. The problem is less "they're product placement" and more the potential for "its shovelware no one likes cause folks are clueless on how this place works" Commented Dec 3, 2021 at 22:53
  • @JourneymanGeek - Perhaps you could define "that's" as it is a rather vague reference. People liked the Careers function, it was fairly highly upvoted during the profile updates, I think it is at least a neutral addition. Jobs is profitable, and it honestly probably helps people. So, perhaps you could clarify your stance of it not being new to go deep in the red to force features on the community with the sole reason being to inflate revenue. All of the previous projects at least attempted to provide the community a benefit, while also attempting to generate profit; even Documentation.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 6, 2021 at 16:22
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    Jobs triggered off 2 series of restructuring. So it was hardly a success. SE has failed a lot, so it's absolutely nothing new to chase a new shiny product and loose track of the folks who could use it. That said I don't think that having product placement and commercial partnerships is necessarily always to the determent of the community... SE has just blown a lot of credibility trying to do that in the past. Doesn't mean they will or won't do it with collectives Commented Dec 6, 2021 at 18:07
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    @JourneymanGeek - This isn't SE as a whole though, this is just Stack Overflow, and specifically a facet of content creation which is a critical aspect of the site. I am not saying "no product placement everywhere" here, just that articles specifically should not include them, for a whole host of reasons. I would be happy to talk to you in chat about the differences between Stack Exchange history, Stack Overflow history, and associated costs, revenues, and profits, but let's not discuss it here as it is for the most part tangential to this post.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 6, 2021 at 19:03
20

A few follow-up questions about 2.10:

2.10 - Articles should not be exact duplicates of existing Q&As or articles. (We need to decide whether we want "canonical articles" or "canonical Q&As" for commonly-asked questions.)

  • Who determines whether an Article is an exact duplicate of existing Q&As or Articles?
  • Will there be some "closure" process to flag or otherwise indicate that a topic is already sufficiently covered by an existing thread?

The launch Announcement for Collectives™ on Stack Overflow states that:

Articles give Recognized Members the opportunity to provide deeper knowledge and insights through how-to-guides, knowledge articles, or announcements.

A prior blog post related to Articles on Teams also mentions that this format can be used to:

proactively and reactively create and share knowledge.

Given that Articles are intended to provide information and substantively add to our existing knowledge base, and, particularly in the case of "proactively" sharing information, the potential exists that an existing Article may be able to answer a new Q&A.

Is there (or should there be) a mechanism by which to close a more recently posted Q&A as a duplicate of an existing Article? If there is not (or should not be) such a mechanism, what happens to Articles that are later covered by a Q&A?

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    I would think that some sort of closure protocol would be necessary, yes. I think the things that you raise here are all excellent examples of tools that will be necessary at some point in the future to make Articles an integrated part of the knowledge base, for sure.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 11:31
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    "Is there (or should there be) a mechanism by which to close a more recently posted Q&A as a duplicate of an existing Article?" I think there should not be, because duplicate closure is a tool meant for the scenario of identical problems, whereas here it would more than likely be used when there are identical answers; while similar, it is not always the case that answer duplication indicates question or problem duplication.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 6, 2021 at 23:15
14

Not sure if this is the feedback you were after, but a few questions:

  • Assuming these new and improved rules are rolled out at some point, will existing articles which do not adhere to those rules be removed?

  • What are the repercussions of a "trusted user" posting content which does not follow the proposed guidelines?

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    These are great points. I would expect that articles that don't comply should be given an opportunity to come into compliance or be removed, yes. For isntance, when we removed announcements as a valid reason for an article, yes, we removed announcement-based articles. As for reprecussions: I would hope that the collective admin would first have a conversation with them, but I think that eventually, the ability to write articles would be removed and any problematic content removed.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:03
  • 2
    @Philippe there is still one announcement, -> stackoverflow.com/search?q=[announcement]+is:article (i don't recall how many existed in total)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:58
14

I think a little something missing is, to put it bluntly - a lack of guidance to what a good article looks like. Not the mechanics, not the rules, but rather the shape, form and structure of it.

One thing I learnt as a freshman moderator on software recommendations was often when building/using the platform for something new, course corrections are needed. I also know that some of these course corrections are difficult - and I suspect its going to be a little harder to tell a paying client after a fact that they've done it wrong.

So fundamentally before mechanics - and I'm starting to feel we've diverged from the 'teams' version of articles a little already, its worth thinking about what kinds of content do not work well as Q&A pairs (even self written ones) and add value to the site. I suspect I'm not qualified to give examples here but I do think opening the floor to the community might do the trick. Stuff that's broader than a question would fit, but not quite full textbook length might work.

2
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It seems to me like the rules you're narrowing down on are essentially the same rules we already have in place for Q&A. Our pre-existing principles and rules are a good starting point, and they're the reason Stack Overflow works as a Q&A site.

Without enumerating all your proposed rules;

This looks like our MCVE rule:

2.0 - Articles should contain sufficient context for the problem that they are intending to address. They should focus on a practical problem that programmers actually face.

This looks a lot like the advice we give for how to write an answer:

2.1 - Articles must fully address the problem they are intending to discuss. Readers should be able to get a clear understanding of how to solve their problem from reading the article.

This looks like our focus rule (i.e. one question per post):

2.2 - Topics that would require extremely lengthy articles to address in full should ideally be split into multiple articles. If there is other context required, the articles should clearly indicate what context is needed.

I think the best-case scenario for articles is that they end up being a combined question and answer.

The downside is that this will remove the ability of the community to moderate answers separately from questions. An article which asks a good question, and provides a bad answer can't be rectified by another answerer coming along with the correct answer.

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    This raises the constructive perspective of explicitly mapping the articles' rules to the existing Q&A guidelines. I suppose some are in the MSO FAQ index.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 4:26
  • 3
    @bad_coder Don't get me wrong, I'm still opposed to this idea of collectives and articles. I don't see how they fit into a Q&A site. But yes, if we're going to have articles they should at least follow the existing rules.
    – Joundill
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 5:32
  • Setting aside for a moment if we're in favor or against collectives/articles, I'm still trying to make up my mind if the FAQs (see the MSE FAQ index that's even more extensive) are actually structured enough to allow a mapping? I suppose they are the result of a long community refinement, so what strikes me as most noteworthy in Philippe's post is the attempt to formalize rules from the outset with the effort of organization being lead by the company. (Formerly staff also had an active voice but the definition of policies was in iterations over time.)
    – bad_coder
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 5:44
  • 1
    Not only competing answers are missing from Articles but also the ability of collaborative editing (at least currently). Otherwise we could simply add alternative solutions to the Article. It could be combined question and multiple answers. Then we would only lose the ability to vode on the best solution. Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 7:57
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    @bad_coder - I think the iteration process should absolutely continue. My hope is that we can jump start that process with a community consultation like this one, but it is not intended to permanently enshrine immutable and unchangeable rules. I totally believe they should be iterated upon over time.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:06
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    @bad_coder - I also hope that in hindsight my involvement here will be viewed as facilitative and not dogmatic or doctrinal. I very much see my role as facilitating conversation (and yes, representing and advocating for the needs of the company, but in a way that hopefully facilitates discussion rather than attempting to "rule with an iron fist" - a characterization that would end in disaster, i think.)
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:08
  • 2
    @Philippe I'm absolutely convinced you are taking the right steps here -calling for a discussion and organizing the feedback- and doing so in a commendable way, following every best practice there is.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:36
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    This isn't best practice. SO had a number of disastrous articles come out before deciding that perhaps there should be some rules, and only because the community kicked up a fuss.
    – Joundill
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 21:28
  • 1
    Yes, I wrote the original Q&A proposing the three examples you gave and they were, in fact, based on the things you referred to (plus the "Don't Ask" help center documentation - hence the "practical problems that programmers actually face" part). I was trying to map them to what the equivalent rule would be for articles. For example, the MCVE standard doesn't exactly apply (since the author of the article isn't asking a question and answerers don't need to reproduce their problem), but the principle of giving sufficient context to understand what problem's being addressed still applies. Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 22:18
  • 3
    @EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica - you beat me to it. I was coming here to say exactly that (and also, I realize that I didn't call out specifically your role in constructing those questions. You put a ton of time into it, and it made my job here much easier. Thank you).
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 11:33
11

Promoting my comment to an answer since it was not merely a rhetorical question:

First and foremost, thank you for following up on the promise to come back with the discussion about guidelines and principles of articles, this is really appreciated, especially after the concerning development with infomercial articles following Intel joining the fray.

The list looks reasonable overall, but there is a guideline that is concerning (in terms of its enforceability, not by itself) — 2.9:

2.9 - Articles may not engage in excessive or undisclosed self-promotion.

It would be nice to know what would be considered "excessive or undisclosed" and whether an article can be considered overly promoting not only the author, but the company behind the collective (and if not - why?).

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  • 2
    Probably all of the Articles within one Collective will deal with this company's/collective's technology. This is already promotional in itself. Now everything that goes on top of that like "this is our newest and best product in the line, you can buy it at ..." might be seen as excessive, I can imagine. Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 14:43
  • 1
    @Trilarion yeah, likely. Although I am a bit more bothered by the enforceability of the rule rather than what it implies by itself - given the current state of affairs, articles require direct involvement of a CM for every offending article to be edited in shape or removed, this is going to be a disaster when the flood gates are open.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 15:22
  • 4
    I still see the whole Articles feature as mostly promotional in nature (basically sponsored content). I guess the proposed rule 2.9 is an emergency exit for SO Inc in case the situation goes out of hand. We don't need to define excessive now, the company will simply declare the promotions to be excessive if users start complaining a lot about them. I guess we might get meta questions of type "This Article is overly promotional because ... should it be deleted". Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 17:25
  • 3
    that's... effectively why I feel like we're going in the wrong direction with articles. We're asking marketing people to write technical guides without being "too promotional," when the entire purpose of Collectives is promotional. It's another case of a solution in search of a problem. In this case the problem is already solved, so it's a solution trying to solve an already solved problem in a "different" way.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 17:40
  • @Trilarion this is what this likely will amount to... I am worried, though, that this case-by-case basis will go out of hand as soon as collectives start to multiply. I wonder if that will really happen given that clients do not seem to be interested in articles regardless.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 17:57
  • @OlegValter I don't see many Articles in the near future. The rules here will lift the quality but also make them harder to write. Already now there aren't many. Who is going to write these high quality how-to guides? The appetite of companys to contribute to a knowledge library seems to have been overestimated. I like the idea of Articles alone for everyone, but Articles together with Collectives doesn't work. It will always be a compromise and probably one that doesn't work. Time will tell. Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 21:37
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    Trilarion, as another data point, our clients are telling us that they have some content for articles, but they're sitting on it until the guidelines are created. So I think it's a little early to make the assumption that we've overestimated the demand. :). You may be right - but this is just another data point.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 11:41
  • 1
    @Philippe You're right. It's too early. We've done our job here and now should lean back and await what interesting stuff might have been held back. :) Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 17:26
  • @Trilarion yeah, actually, I would love to see them (stripped of rep and with subject to proper curation, of course) extrapolated to the pubplat as a whole, I think they have potential too. As a collectives feature... not so much, but since they are likely to stay, and we are here defining the guidelines, what is worrying me is the enforceability of them. CMs' involvement by-article is not scalable at all (I hope Philippe reads these conversations), so unless we also define the mechanisms of ensuring articles stay aligned to the guidelines, I forsee severe quality issues...
    – 0Valt
    Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 21:06
  • 3
    @OlegValter Philippe reads these conversations. I've read every comment here so far. :-) I'm purposely not weighing in yet on many of them, to allow time for the community sentiment to settle. (FWIW, I agree that CM involvement is not scalable. There are several ways to handle that - add more staff, use tooling, etc - but I agree on the problem.)
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Dec 6, 2021 at 13:43
  • It's an unfamiliar situation that for once, users aren't the primary content creators (but rather people from outside (kind of)). So far, all users together have created the content. Now it feels to me a bit like content coming more from the outside but with additional feedback ability from inside. It will be interesting to see who is going to write Articles and what motivates the Article creators to do that. Commented Dec 9, 2021 at 12:14
8

One thing I would like to address that my original Q&A didn't really address (except in the comments): customer support questions.

Questions like "when will Microsoft release (some new feature)?" and "what are the policies for the Apple App Store?" have rightly been banned from the main Q&A page because the community at large doesn't work for these companies and can't know the answer, and because that's not what Stack Overflow Q&A is for. I'm not convinced that those statements apply to collectives, though.

The major difference? First, since people can be verified to be affiliated with the company, they can know the answer (and speak authoritatively on the subject). On the main Q&A site, I wouldn't know how to vote on answers to this kind of question because I can't independently verify their accuracy, and I really can't know for sure if the answerer knows what they're talking about. That problem is solved on collectives, because I can see whether they've been verified by the company as knowing what they're talking about.

Articles also can't receive answers, so they can't attract unproductive speculation from people who aren't affiliated with the company. (In general, this means that questions that would attract pointless blathering, spam, etc. if posted as Q&A could, in principle, work better as articles).

Secondly, this kind of is what articles are for. Presumably, an article should fill a gap in the Q&A site, meaning in part that companies should be able to post information that's not already widely available to people outside the company. There'd be little use in an article on "how do I compare strings in Java?" because that information is already widely available elsewhere and there's even a canonical Q&A on it on the main site, but questions like "how do I get my app approved?" or "what does such-and-such a rejection email mean?" are not necessarily widely or authoritatively available outside the company.

This does at least raise the possibility of people being able to request specific topics for articles (obviously, with guidance as to how to fill out such a request and when they should fill out an article request instead of posting a question to the main Q&A).

I assume that articles on stuff like "when will Microsoft release (some new feature)?" will still be off-topic, given the apparent demise of Announcement articles. If Announcements were ever permitted again, though, I think that these would be on-topic. That doesn't mean that topics like "how do I get my app approved?" are intrinsically terrible articles that shouldn't be allowed though.

Also, this opinion may seem a little strange to people who are used to participating in Stack Overflow (where the scope is pretty well-established), but one lesson I learned from participating in various site Betas (such as participating in the relatively early days of the successful Literature.SE site launch and the failed Technical Writing private beta) is that it's sometimes easier to try various things and see how they work than to just make a determination in advance without the evidence of experience. (Indeed, some people may recall that that's how we determined that "recommendation questions" and "shopping questions" don't work very well on the Q&A site, and these questions weren't banned until well after the Stack Overflow and Super User launch). That being said, we may want to have a list of "experimental topics" (such as customer support articles) that we'd like to try out and gather evidence on before we make a final decision either way. If we post a few of these articles and people find that they work well in the collective and are useful, we can keep them around; otherwise, we can ban future articles on those topics and there's little harm done.

That's not to say that we can't have quality standards in advance. There are plenty of things that we can determine ahead of time would make poor articles (such as articles that are addressing too many topics at once, articles that don't contain sufficient context for the problem they're trying to solve, or articles that aren't about a practical problem that programmers actually face). It's just to say that we can't simply assume that the rules for what makes a good article will be identical to the rules for what makes a good question, and sometimes it's not very clear in advance whether something should be allowed.

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    This is an extremely good point. I ~really~ don't want to take us down the path of "Stack Overflow as primary tech support" so it would probably be a good idea for us to watch closely to see if this emerges.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Dec 29, 2021 at 13:23

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