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protected by helmut Feb 31 '18 at 12:34 This question is protected to prevent "thanks!", "me too!", or spam answers by new users. To answer it, you must have earned at least 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).

  1. Is that thing always set at 10 reputation?

  2. Any chance for trusted user or diamond mod to choose it a little higher, say 100 or 1000?

10 may prevent spam, but it does not prevent long "tail of crap" that seem to collect on questions with high scores (go to any question with > 200 votes and look on page 2 or beyond). These are generally years late answers from low-rep users just repeating existing content.

Mysteriously, those late answers can somehow gather many upvotes even if they are not adding any useful content, they're sometimes even voted up when obviously incorrect, so the usual quality controls of downvotes and delvotes are not proving adequate.

I don't know how it happens, but suspect some users are trawling through these most popular posts and upvoting on everything there just to try and gain the badges that are associated with using up your votes in a day (it would only need a handful of users doing this to have the effect). Maybe they even post an answer and then upvote everything else there, since that's what the sportsmanship badge incentivizes attempting.

Is there any good, on-topic question on Stack Overflow where > 1 page worth of answers was warranted? Once a question is so popular and highly visible, we should be looking at maintaining the top-voted and/or accepted answers with edits to make sure they remain current and correct.

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    How big is a "page" for you? ;) ... seriously, there's no cut and dried answer for how many answers is "enough" that will cover every SE site. Some answers are more verbose than others, and some questions about ambiguous topics have multiple valid answers. Commented Oct 29, 2019 at 23:35
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    I'm asking specifically about stack overflow - a page is 30 answers, I think a good and on-topic technical question here can't really have that many unique answers. I realize other SE sites may not need these controls, or set different thresholds, but it would be nice to have the better tools here to protect our most popular content (viewed literally millions of times). If every popular question is collecting a few kilobytes of redundant chaff, it must really add up ..
    – wim
    Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 2:59
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    Sounds like you are asking for the kind of lock that has been applied to this Q/A or this one for example. Posts are still editable, but no new answer can be written, by anyone. Seems at least moderators can do it. However I couldn't find anything in help/locked-posts about this type of locks...
    – Kaiido
    Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 3:55
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    A couple of similar requests from the olden days: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/60081/… meta.stackexchange.com/questions/100987/… Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 4:17
  • @Kaiido Hmm, that's a bit stronger than I think we need here, and it seems to make the question uneditable. Better tool for the community to use would be just raising the bar a bit for adding a new answer somehow. Making the min rep required customizable seems like a simple and easy solution that could be effective, and quick for dev to add since a chunk of the logic is already there for "10".
    – wim
    Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 5:05
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    @defaultlocale Thanks - I clicked through to Jeff's blog post about when the "protect" feature was added. It says if you see a question that is attracting a lot of drive-by noise answers ... turn on protection. The protection bar is extraordinarily low right now [>= 10 reputation]. But the fact is we are still seeing too many noise answers, flagging for mod is not really appropriate, and it's probably time to raise the "extraordinarily low" bar that was originally set as a conservative estimate back in 2010.
    – wim
    Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 5:15
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    @wim Yeah, I see your point and I've upvoted the question. This might be useful for some popular questions. Definitely not for all of them though, as some receive useful answers from low-rep users (e.g. 1, 2, 3) Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 5:38
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    I rarely see a good question that warrants more than 1 or 2 answers these days.. I agree with your question but what happens when those same users that post crappy answers start to edit their crap into the top voted answers?
    – Sayse
    Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 8:56
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    Remember that the majority of visitors doesn't even have an account here. By increasing the reputation barrier, you exclude those from answering, especially those that only want to add information to that single question. I'd be really careful with raising that barrier. Most of those questions answers change with new syntax coming up, so sometimes updates in the form of answers are needed. Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 9:25
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    @Sayse We have the tools to revert bad edits already, just rollback. Gold badgers see these voted questions all the time, because we use them as duplicate targets and try to keep the accepted answer in good shape, so a bogus edit wouldn’t last long.
    – wim
    Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 14:29
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    Perhaps the voting script should consider removing votes if an entire page of answers on a question (30 answers) are all upvoted within the same several minute timespan.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 18:35
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    related: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/385063/… Commented Oct 31, 2019 at 20:37
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    We have duplicate questions, so maybe we should have duplicate answers too. Regarding the upvoting of incorrect answers, I fear there is not much one can do. Commented Nov 1, 2019 at 23:01
  • @Trilarion unfortunately, handling of duplicate answers is much trickier than questions
    – gnat
    Commented Nov 2, 2019 at 6:18
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    ...the only practical way known so far is Atwood's cleanup but it's rather cumbersome and because of that, seems to be used way too rarely
    – gnat
    Commented Nov 2, 2019 at 6:25

3 Answers 3

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  1. Is that thing always set at 10 reputation?

Yep.

  1. Any chance for trusted user or diamond mod to choose it a little higher, say 100 or 1000?

This is likely to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of providing this functionality. In fact, I'm uncomfortable with the fact that the ability to "protect" questions on Stack Overflow exists at all. People who aren't established Stack Overflow users are perfectly capable in principle of giving excellent answers to popular questions that are superior to all those currently posted, and I don't like the fact that we turn away such potential contributions, or gatekeep the ability to provide them until the user wastes their time answering some random piece of garbage from the front page to hit the rep threshold.

Probably newbies are somewhat more likely to provide bad answers to popular questions, but it's hardly the case that only newbies do so, and I don't like making the ability of a new arrival to make a meaningful contribution contingent on them doing some meaningless drudge-work in a community that they are by definition not yet invested in. I certainly don't think we should increase the minimum bar to something that requires days of work. I worry that our existing system of question protection may have alienated some readers who had potential to turn into valuable contributors, and that if that's the case, we'll never know about it. I worry that making the hurdle that has to be cleared even higher will exacerbate that effect.

Also, protection is used kind of capriciously. It's been remarked on Meta before that a large fraction of protected questions (I forget the exact number) have never received an answer that protecting the question would've been prevented, prior to protection being applied. Meanwhile, some questions garner dozens of garbage answers without getting protected. While it's not a huge deal, I find the capriciousness distasteful; I'd rather our handling of popular questions was more clearly principled.

Is there any good, on-topic question on stack overflow where > 1 page worth of answers was warranted?

No, but there are plenty where at least one high-quality new answer was warranted after > 1 page of pointless crap had accumulated. The existence of a couple of dozen crap answers that add nothing does not imply that the best answers so far are flawless, or even that they are correct or adequate. As such, the implicit argument here that goes something like "there are pretty much never more than 5-or-so distinct good answers to a question, therefore once we have 5-or-so answers, plus some safety margin, there cannot be any more distinct good answers to provide" is a fallacy. It's a mistake to remove the opportunity for people to give us diamonds just because lots of other people gave us glass.

Mysteriously, those late answers can somehow gather many upvotes even if they are not adding any useful content, they're sometimes even voted up when obviously incorrect, so there remains incentive to add answers and the usual quality controls of downvotes and delvotes are not proving adequate.

This is the root of the problem here, to my mind, and well-stated. It is (obviously) not a problem by itself that new users can answer popular questions; it only becomes problematic because, for some reason - and I find it as mysterious as you - voting spectacularly fails to punish bad answers (whether from newbies or otherwise) to popular questions.

Once a question is so popular and highly visible, we should be looking at maintaining the top-voted and/or accepted answers with edits to make sure they remain current and correct.

As the proud owner of 116 necromancer badges, I disagree. Sometimes a question is popular and highly-visible, yet its top answers are wholly inadequate or outdated. To grab a few examples from the top of the "answers" tab in my profile, this and this and this and this are all examples of cases where I provided an entirely new answer to an old question, because I felt that none of the existing ones were adequate, and it rose to the top or near the top of the answer list. These are some of my most useful contributions to the site, and I worry I wouldn't've been able to give them in the world you envisage.

To my mind, competition between answers is the key to how the whole Stack Overflow system works. Collaborative editing of a handful of answers usually turns out badly when we try it; in my experience, wiki-locked posts have a habit of turning into unreadable, sprawling collections of every bit of trivia somebody felt like throwing in, or just being made outright incorrect by well-meaning but incompetent editors. And when that happens, our voting system fails at its QC job even worse than it does with bad answers to popular questions, because the now-incorrect answers are already highly-upvoted and at the top of the answer list.

In my view, we need to retain the free competition, but more ruthlessly crack down on bad answers after they're posted. I'm not sure what the solution to that is, but I can think of a few, some cultural and some platform changes:

  1. Encourage dedicated users who are willing to do so to look over all the answers when they read a highly-viewed question, and downvote/delete the duds
  2. Make votes on multiple answers to the same question only count as one vote for the purpose of the daily vote limit, so that the point above is actually possible to do on questions with >40 bad answers without spreading the work over multiple days.
  3. Restrict Late Answer reviews on highly-viewed questions to >10k users, who have delete votes and are likely to be more aggressive about downvoting
  4. Build community tooling (or maybe add onto Smoke Detector, if appropriate - I'm not familiar with the bots) to highlight new answers to highly-viewed old questions for scrutiny - like the Late Answer review queue, but more focussed on high-view questions.

I prefer the idea of these remedies to your proposal of enhancing protection, because:

  • they sidestep the capriciousness of protection decisions, using some threshold number of views as the basis for applying greater scrutiny instead of the whims of a high-rep user
  • they're non-discriminatory against new users
  • they also enable us to combat bad answers to popular questions from users with thousands of rep (which I have certainly seen).

Honestly - and again, I don't foresee this being a popular opinion - if it were up to me, I'd favour scrapping the whole "protected" system entirely. I think there are more effective ways, like those I propose, of solving the problem that question protection is designed to solve, and that those ways would also inflict less collateral damage. I think if anyone's going to spend effort in that area, they should spend it shifting the whole paradigm by which we tackle the problem, from one of preemptively disempowering a class of users who we speculate might post bad content, to finding ways to direct curatorial effort to potential bad content so we can deal with it - no matter how much rep its author had.

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    These are some of my most useful contributions to the site, and I worry I wouldn't've been able to give them in the world you envisage. Yes you would have, because you'd have enough rep already. And your new answers probably would have risen faster, because there was not pages of crap in front of them reducing their visibility. But I get your point (that it takes that privilege away from new users, pre-emptively)
    – wim
    Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 19:51
  • @wim Fair enough. I took the particular sentence I was replying to there as suggesting that a more radical shift was needed in how we deal with highly-visible answered questions, beyond just rep limits for answering; maybe I was arguing against a strawman.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 19:54
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    Wow, you used a double contraction yet still managed to get an upvote from me. In all seriousness, I agree with you about protected questions. Now that Community is auto-protecting questions after a certain number of garbage/spam answers have been deleted, I have not found any need to manually protect questions. In fact, I think the ability of people to manually protect questions should be removed entirely, letting the machine handle it. If the auto-protection algorithm needs to be tweaked, then let’s do it, but there’s no reason to have people speculatively protecting questions.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 1, 2019 at 0:26
  • This answer makes some good arguments against, but I want to see more convincing solutions. 1. is status quo, we do this already and it's not enough. 2. is not going to have the effect if users don't know about the change, and changing the incentives on badges themselves is moving the goalposts 3. this will mean late answers see fewer or slower reviewers, and gives the reviewers too much burden to view the context of the answer (reading all other answers on same question?) 4. not much different from 1., is it...?
    – wim
    Commented Nov 1, 2019 at 18:25
  • The reason I suggested possibly using the "protect" feature to improve matters here is that it's a change which could, presumably, be made immediately. Anything that requires new development effort is gonna suffer from 6-8 weeks problem.
    – wim
    Commented Nov 1, 2019 at 18:27
  • 116 necromancer badges? Impressive! You are clearly an expert on this topic (that's genuine praise, not sarcasm).
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Nov 2, 2019 at 8:20
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    Are you sure you fully understand how this works? What you call "capricious" is in fact "three deleted answers from new users automatically triggers protection". That's not capricious. That's based on foundational data and real user actions. Commented Nov 5, 2019 at 2:50
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    @JeffAtwood No, the automated protections are not capricious. But the human-imposed ones - which make up most of the question protections that I see, or at least most of those I notice - tend to be.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Nov 5, 2019 at 11:31
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    "for some reason... voting spectacularly fails to punish bad answers": because upvoting answers is free, but downvoting them costs "valuable" Internet Points?
    – Raedwald
    Commented Nov 8, 2019 at 10:35
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To deal with this problem effectively, I think we should first try to understand why it happens.

Mysteriously, those late answers can somehow gather many upvotes even if they are not adding any useful content

It is a bit of a mystery, but I can think of a few reasons why those answers get posted and why they get upvotes. Generally, popular questions are popular because they are easy to understand, or because they ask about a common problem that most newcomers to the language will encounter. And then there are the questions about some odd but fascinating quirk of the language.

If there are only a small number of ways to solve the problem, and those solutions are easy to understand, then generally there will be a small number of good solutions, and activity on the question will die down after a few days.

But if there are lots of possible solutions, or if it's difficult for newbies to understand the best solutions, then we get lots of answers, and it may not be easy even for experts to decide on which are the best solutions. Some of those answers will be from newbies who may not fully appreciate the subtleties involved. If the code seems to work, another newbie may prefer a simple "try this" answer to the higher scoring robust answer with more complex code and an explanation that goes over their head.

Also, those old popular questions often get targetted by new answerers who are basically practising how to answer. Maybe they figure they can't do too much harm, since the question's already answered. In some cases they may not even realise that their answer will bump the question.

Now if a couple of school friends who've just joined SO happen to encounter each other's answers on the same old popular question, there's a good chance that they'll give each other upvotes. That can happen spontaneously, they aren't necessarily acting as a voting ring intentionally. For that matter, newbies can upvote other newbie's posts even when they're total strangers, just out of a sense of newbie solidarity.

Over the passage of time a popular question will get many visitors, so those below-par answers get lots of chances to be upvoted by random visitors who aren't regulars, so they don't fully appreciate the need for quality control. Also, many of those visitors have a problem that's not exactly the same as the OP's, so they may not need the full-blown solution that covers all the corner cases: a simple solution may be adequate for them, and if it doesn't quite work as desired they can try fixing it themself, and if they still have a problem they can come back to SO for further assistance.

And let's not forget the "cargo-cult" coders who are just looking for code to copy & paste, and aren't that interested in reading technical explanations. Simple "try this" answers are exactly what they want. ;)


So how do we combat this? I agree that protecting the question is of very limited use, and that raising the rep bar on certain protected questions has its own problems, as Mark Amery explains.

We cannot (and should not) stop new answerers from practising on old questions. That happens on every Stack Exchange site I use; I think we just have to live with that. But we do need to encourage everyone, especially the newbies, to use their upvotes with care. Don't just upvote answers that look nice & simple. Try them first, and test them against more data than what the OP provides in the question. Try to understand why they work, and be on the lookout for possible flaws. If the top answers are hard to understand, put in some effort to understand them. If necessary, post a comment asking the author for further explanation.

We also need to make it clearer to newbies that we shouldn't upvote our friends' posts just because they're our friend. The post needs to deserve the vote, regardless of who wrote it.

I know that people don't read the Help pages, but I think it might be useful to expand the instructions on the vote-up privilege page.

I'm not sure what to do about cargo-culters. IME, they tend to be a stubborn bunch, although some of them can be cured of their habit through education. That takes time, and positive interaction with more skilled coders, eg in chat, but I have seen it happen. Part of the problem is that there are plenty of answerers who are only too happy to feed the cargo-culters addiction. I'm often tempted to downvote "try this" answers that have zero explanation, especially if the code is an inscrutable one-liner, but I don't like to downvote code that's technically correct, although I will post a comment urging the author to add some explanation to their code.

However, if a new "try this" answer contains code that's virtually identical to code from an existing answer that does contain some explanatory text, the "try this" answer is simply clutter, and cargo-cult fodder, so it deserves to die. The system could make it easier to remove such answers...

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  • This is all very diplomatic, and could well be true for motivations, but I suspect at least part of the trigger for this question was my call-to-arms in chat for the tail end of this (they're gone now). I see no reason why a stream of terrible answers should be tolerated any more on old questions than new ones (which demonstrably aren't tolerated, but only by having significantly more eyes on them already). The standard is consistent, the ability to tackle issues varies between current and old questions
    – roganjosh
    Commented Nov 5, 2019 at 20:53
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    In other words, I think it currently relies on regular users stumbling on the problem while looking for a dupe and then pestering other regulars to act. That's far less organic to how new, bad, answers are handled simply through those kind of users viewing "fresh" questions in a higher concentration. I'd argue that people hunting down legacy questions and posting answers as some kind of proving ground is less effective than writing them in a word document, because their negative feedback (or lack thereof) is a false positive
    – roganjosh
    Commented Nov 5, 2019 at 20:56
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I believe a long tail of crap is less of a problem if a question is a community wiki. This allows more answers to be added without rep gains, and it allows curators to merge all good information into the accepted answer, reducing the need to scan the long tail.

So it would be useful if there were more ways to turn highly viewed questions into community wikis without consent of the asker (e.g. after one year), and also to make it easier for high rep users to vote-delete answers to community wiki questions.

In other words, at a certain level of visitation, ownership of the answer space of a question should go to the community, with a wiki like top answer.

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  • community wiki aren't always OK: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/227290/…
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 3, 2020 at 18:14
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    Good link, though it seems killing off all automatic conversations to CW was a rash and dogmatic decision. And anyway, there are alternatives to the automatic wiki conversion, such as just making it easier to vote for conversion.
    – tkruse
    Commented Mar 3, 2020 at 23:12
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    I happened to be around by that time and it was certainly not in the rush. You can see how it took over a month between submitting feature request and its completion, and it's only a tip of the iceberg because there were multiple complaints about this piling on for years before that...
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 4, 2020 at 8:05
  • ...as for dogmatic, I don't quite understand what you mean, to me it was more like decision made after multiple practical examples have demonstrated how theoretically correct feature (of auto-CW) is doing harm in real application, because it was based on rather simplistic (dogmatic if you wish) expectation of how system will function in real life
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 4, 2020 at 8:05
  • Sorry for saying "rush". By dogmatic I mean SOME automated CW rules were bad, some let's remove ALL of them, forever. That's not very differentiated.
    – tkruse
    Commented Mar 4, 2020 at 9:32
  • Though based on the events, I would likely prefer a vote-to-convert-to-CW over a full automatism, with some precondition for the vote, like 30+ answers present.
    – tkruse
    Commented Mar 4, 2020 at 9:34
  • At least I don't think that if today I fall 100 questions for moderator intervention to turn into a CW, that this would be well received. Correct me if I am wrong.
    – tkruse
    Commented Mar 4, 2020 at 9:35
  • @gnat my knee-jerk reaction to that title is "no, you stop using reputation as a collaborative editing denial mechanism". Commented Oct 9, 2022 at 20:22

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