160

I've perused the new blog post — What a very bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community. There are some decent points being made in there with respect to the amount of feedback that Stack Overflow gives people when they ask questions, which is something that has been pointed out since time immemorial in these parts.

If you read through this, you see that there is a "come to Jesus"-moment for the company in that it realizes that the UX is actually the culprit when it comes to perceived unwelcomeness to the site.

This is good. This is what we want to happen; a discussion around how the site comes across, and not about how we're somehow being mean and should stop being mean. (Remember: I'm over being blamed for that.)

But I decided to also read between the lines and I found some things a bit...concerning.

We want to make sure people are getting necessary feedback without feeling called out or publicly embarrassed. We will be working on new paths to improve content quality and reduce friction between people. Our goal is to have the question asking process be painless and beneficial for new users and Stack Overflow veterans alike.

There's some things to unpack here.

  • Embarrassment is more cultural than you realize. I was having a shower thought this morning on the Japanese culture and was reminded of an article explaining how Japanese Pokemon Go players felt a bit timid about "making friends" in the game to advance their account.

    This also applies to other circumstances as well; it can take a lot of courage and effort to actually ask questions of relative strangers, or to interact with relative strangers, and I'm just not convinced that any amount of prose or UX is going to reduce the barrier to that. Stack Overflow could throw $10 million at this problem and have less to show for it in the end.

  • Lofty goals aside, content quality as a goal is at odds with reducing friction. If you want good quality content, you have to be prepared to incur some amount of friction. The lightest touch point there is duplicates; if we get yet another NullPointerException cookie-cutter question, the nicest thing we can do for them is to close it as a duplicate. But this was called out as part of a negative experience.

    The way the system is currently built, when you ask a question that could use some editing or is a duplicate, a bunch of people come out of the woodwork to tell you you’ve done something wrong.

    Hopefully your new UX explains that duplicates aren't wrong, but I don't think you'll ever really get over that hump.

  • Asking questions is already painless. It takes no effort to create an account and ask a question here. The struggle point would be "beneficial", which leads back to a reliable curation system of votes and duplicates, which would in theory lead to a reduction of asking questions, which would imply that asking questions should be harder, not easier. Or, maybe I'm too skeptical at this point. I'd love to be convinced otherwise.

Now at last we come to the final statement(s) of the blog post, and this is honestly why I was glad I re-read the post.

By improving the way people give each other feedback, we can improve question quality without putting the burden on our users to police the website. We will empower our long time users to become mentors and teachers in order to bring the spirit of Stack Overflow back to what it was in the beginning, a place where people come to share and learn. By thinking hard about how we give feedback, we’ll help people learn instead of driving them away. We’ll get more people involved and improve question quality.

First, I don't think any of us really had a problem with policing the site. We had a problem with what felt like a Herculean task; we were given a rubber mallet and told to reduce El Capitan to rubble. Sure, we were legion, but a rubber mallet is only going to get you to go so far so fast. Oh, did I mention that at some point during this process, it felt like our rubber mallets got switched out for toy mallets, and El Capitan became sentient and had become empowered to call us out for hitting it too hard with the toy mallet? That was a rough last year...

Second, I've already given some thoughts to mentorship on Stack Overflow, and I remain more convinced than ever that it will not scale. What we do best is Q&A, and if we dilute that, we'll do two things really, really poorly.

What I really want to avoid is another instance like the Documentation effort, where we allowed straight-up beginner prose to dominate the site until there wasn't much value left.

Thirdly, I'd like to know if I can interpret this as a statement of the new goal and mission for Stack Overflow.

We will empower our long time users to become mentors and teachers in order to bring the spirit of Stack Overflow back to what it was in the beginning, a place where people come to share and learn.

This is only because I always thought it was about providing an answer to every programming question out there.

Anymore it feels like "learning" is just shoehorned in here for convenience sake. People learn by doing, and that's not likely to change. By explicitly stating that people are here to learn, you just open up the flood gates - unwittingly or not - to questions which are poor and Twitter comments complaining about how so-and-so "just wanted to learn", which is backed by your statement.

So, is this where we're actually going now? Are we going to become a place where people can learn? Is this Stack Overflow's endgame?

37
  • 58
    @Elin: You misunderstand. You learn as a byproduct of your interactions here on Stack Overflow. The converse of this is that others have an expectation to be taught. I elaborate on this at great length in another Meta post. You can continue to learn here, but having an expectation to be taught is something I disagree with.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 16:04
  • 63
    @Elin I feel like most of the people don't want to learn, but want an answer served up that solves their problem. There are some that are willing, and actually want to learn, but those seem to be the exception, not the rule.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 16:09
  • 19
    Hey @makoto, thank you for your feedback! Super valuable and always welcomed.
    – Sara Chipps StaffMod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 16:24
  • 23
    I already teach and mentor to the extent that it is possible with the limited tools that are available (comments and chat). I don't try to do this on any other sites but Stack Overflow and Software Engineering, because my comments are summarily deleted. Apparently advice in comments isn't welcome anymore.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 16:25
  • 34
    Hi @SaraChipps, thanks for responding. I'm glad you appreciated my feedback, but I am looking for an answer to this question...
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:19
  • 13
    My stance is that we're in a sort of flux at the moment, where change is happening, but the actual end goal is not known. The cynical side says there's a hidden agenda, and being kept from long term users in an effort to not cause a mass exodus. The more optimistic side says it's a communication problem and SE just doesn't know yet where they want to go.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:24
  • 19
    @Makoto I do actually see my role as being one of a mentor or teacher. Most of my answers explain where the OP might have gone wrong (if it’s a debugging question), and I try the explain what is going on and why and how things are designed to work. That’s teaching, right there. Sure, it’s a very different setting from a classroom or a one-on-one mentoring relationship but I do strive to transfer knowledge. I think answers that teach to fish are better quality compared to the answers that merely present the fish.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:26
  • 22
    @MartijnPieters: Because it's really not up to us - as in the "us" that is here on Meta - as to how this is meant to be interpreted. This is going towards the tens of thousands of people that will use Stack Overflow with this new and improved direction, and leverage that position whenever they attempt to justify...well, whatever kinds of questions they want to ask. Then we begin the cycle of explaining the scope of the site anew and I'd just like to cut the chase and have something completely unambiguous. You were always empowered to teach. I don't want it to become a requirement.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:36
  • 11
    @Makoto: sure, the blog is aimed at a wider audience. I’m just fascinated with the pessimistic interpretations all the time, to me this all feels like trying to find proof for a reality that doesn’t exist in the tiniest morsels of words.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:39
  • 25
    To me, the biggest problem SO has is that Jeff left, some time ago, and no one stepped up to fill his leadership role and provide clear, unambiguous no-nonsense direction on what the site is about. Lacking Jeff, there is now a bit of a communication vacuum.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:45
  • 14
    But no conspiracies; the efforts I do see all are aimed at improving the tooling for us moderators. We got a shiny new flag dashboard, experiments with ML-driven comment flagging (early days yet on that), improved info on bad-actor accounts. Stuff that helps us keep the quality high, and there is absolutely nothing pushing in a direction of “anything goes and question askers are to be treated with white gloves”. So while the comms might be lacking, the heart is still there.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:45
  • 24
    @Makoto I know I learned to respond better and to leave the snark at home (literally, my family is now forced to my snark being spoken out loud instead) since those efforts. I’m being no less firm when evicting accounts 2, 3,4, and 5 for a repeat question-ban evader, I just make sure to not rise to the bait. I never saw why people had to conflate “having to be constructive” with “allowing quality to slip”. That’s one of those mischaracterisations of the goals SE set for these efforts.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:57
  • 11
    As for the tooling improvements: mod tools were way, way, way overdue for improvements. And now that we are finally getting them, to me that’s a sign more such improvements are afoot and are sure to start showing up on the community moderation side too.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:59
  • 18
    @MartijnPieters Two things that I see as possible (related) reasons for the conflation of "constructive" and "slipping quality": 1. Downvote/Dupehammer or a ("snarky") "RTFM [linkToDocs]" comment are low effort and very effective. Patiently and compassionately explaining the meaning of NullPointerException and how to use a debugger repeatedly to each and every lazy slacker who posts a crap question simply will not scale. [cont'd]
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 13:14
  • 37
    [cont'd] 2. Offering this sort of tutoring might seem to be manageable now. But when the goal of stack overflow "officially" becomes that of offering a free, voluntary tutor for every lazy beginner, there will be an unmanageable flood of people looking for this sort of "help".
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 13:14

7 Answers 7

23

If you read through this, you see that there is a "come to Jesus"-moment for the company in that it realizes that the UX is actually the culprit when it comes to perceived unwelcomeness to the site.

I have read the blog post, and I agree that it attributes the perception of unwelcomeness to the UX. And perhaps that indeed reflects a watershed moment, with the company -- or at least Sara -- realizing that the problem is not so much the users as the platform. But I think the true insight is more specific: that no matter how valid and polite, negative feedback can be taken personally by the receiver, especially in the aggregate. And I think that misses a broader truth, which I will get to shortly.

Embarrassment is more cultural than you realize.

Agreed. In particular, I agree that there are regional / national / ethnic cultural characteristics that leave some people more prone to embarrassment than others, and also that make some people more prone to internalize criticism or to perceive it as a rebuff or even an attack.

content quality as a goal is at odds with reducing friction.

Absolutely. Enforcing any criteria at all for discriminating between wanted / accepted content and unwanted / rejected content necessarily means that content submissions will sometimes be rejected. If someone makes a submission in good faith, but it does not meet our criteria then it should be rejected. The best we can hope for in such a scenario is that the submitter won't take that too negatively.

First, I don't think any of us really had a problem with policing the site. We had a problem with what felt like a Herculean task

... but ...

That was a rough last year...

I agree. But the point I want to emphasize is that we primarily have a culture problem going on here. That's the origin of the problem with new user experience and perceptions, and in the last year or so it became clear that there is also a culture gap between the backbone membership and SE-the-company.

SO used to bill itself as being for professional and enthusiast programmers, and there has been a fair amount of parsing and interpretation of what that was supposed to mean. What it actually did mean in practice is that the primary audience and membership was hackers. The Jargon File, to which the linked definition belongs, contains and links to a great deal of insight on hacker ethos and culture that is relevant to understanding the clash we're dealing with.

Here are some of the characteristics typical of the people who made SO what it is:

  • They are largely meritocratic, and they ascribe merit mainly for technical skill and contributions to the community.

    Our reputation system dovetails with this. It's true that high-rep users receive more deference, more respect, and sometimes more slack than newbies and low-rep users. They've earned it, and they are reasonable to expect it.

  • That does not by any means imply that they are exclusionary or unwilling to help.

    Hackers thrive on contributing and helping, and they delight in recognizing the talent and contributions of others. Those are some of the characteristics that made SO work in the first place. On the flip side, however, they have little patience or respect for those who are perceived to be draining the community instead of contributing to it.

  • But hackers dislike drudgery and wastefulness, such as solving the same problem twice.

    ... or answering questions for which answers are already readily available. So indeed yes, some members do actively look for questions to close, especially as dupes. But this is not a means of spurning new members. Rather, it is an act of service to the community.

Many of our ideas about what constitute a good question revolve around these points. Good questions give something to the community and convey respect for it, whereas bad questions drain it, or at least seek to do.

There is much more than I can convey in this medium and context, even speaking in generalities as I have done. But the point is that although SO culture has idiosyncrasies, it is not an isolated, emergent phenomenon. Rather, it is an extension and reflection of the values, history, and shared culture of the people for and by whom SO was built. This is the wellspring from which come longtime members' threats to leave SO, and demands that the people setting policies and making plans be active in the community. Those aren't idle threats or empty wishes.

I'm convinced that most people who find SO cold and unwelcoming do so because they genuinely do not fit in. They are generally treated just like anyone else, and that's different from how they would like to be treated. And that's ok. Active participation on SO isn't for everyone, no matter how much SE-the-company would like it to be. We can be nice to everyone, but we cannot make them all comfortable, not and still be SO.

5
  • 3
    I have achieved enlightenment from this. Kudos.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 4:08
  • 1
    "But I think the true insight is more specific: that no matter how valid and polite, negative feedback can be taken personally by the receiver, especially in the aggregate." I disagree, and I think you ought to go back and read it again. It wasn't the negative feedback that created the negative experience. It was the pile-on. I've experienced one myself, on meta.SE a few weeks back. It's quite unpleasant. If one person criticizes you, you can have a dialogue and gain understanding. If 50 people criticize you, good luck talking to a mob.
    – Ryan Lundy
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 8:58
  • 1
    @RyanLundy, I re-read just to be sure, and I am entirely comfortable with the characterization I have given. I acknowledge (and wrote) that the aggregate nature of the incoming messaging was a key dynamic in Sara's experience, but if it hadn't been negative -- as in dissenting and critical, not rude or aggressive -- then there would have been no issue. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 11:59
  • From the post: "The monster in this case is not one person, it was created when lots of people, even with great intentions, publicly disagreed with you at the same time. Even kind feedback can come off as caustic and mean when there is a mob of people behind it. No matter how nicely they say it, when a large group of people you really respect publicly challenge something you’ve done it can feel like a personal attack." The "aggregate nature" was not a "key dynamic"; it was the whole point. I don't see how it could be more clear.
    – Ryan Lundy
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 13:41
  • 1
    Maybe recommended if not required reading for everybody new to SO should be this classic piece.
    – user11044402
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 13:53
39

We will empower our long time users to become mentors and teachers

Teaching salaries in the US are between $30,000 to $60,000.

What does SO intend to pay?

11
  • 6
    Nothing. It will all be pro bono. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 21:44
  • 7
    Or stock options, perhaps. With the ten times higher revenue / valuation goal before the IPO, from 70 million USD to 700 million USD, it could turn out lucrative. Or a small amount of Bitcoin that would be really lucrative if bitcoin goes to USD 1,000,000 as some hope (or USD 5,000,000). Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 22:06
  • 54
    Empower me please with "call parents" button for those howework questions.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 9:53
  • 13
    Personal tutors providing individualized help on a 1:1 basis are going to have a different salary range than a teacher lecturing to 30+ students at a time.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 13:49
  • 5
    Let's rename "On Hold/Closed" As "Going to Detention/In Detention"
    – Davy M
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 18:27
  • 2
    @PeterMortensen the discussion you have linked is quite interesting: nothing about „making internet a better place“ but a lot about getting from 70m to 700m. This might be due to interests of the auditorium, but still if this is the goal - there probably must be some changes, because it will be pretty hard to scale he current Q&A by factor 10.
    – ead
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 18:36
  • 11
    Perhaps schooling is different now. But when I handed in homework, it got marked, and bad homework got a low mark. I don't recall anyone being taken seriously for complaining that school was unwelcoming because the teachers were critical of the homework done by the pupils.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 12:41
  • 1
    That new developers must turn to the internet for guidance and mentoring represents a failure in our industry. Most places don't provide it like they should. In others you've got an abundance of senior developers ready to enthusiastically teach you the wrong things. Following their examples will derail you. Ideally mentoring should be a function of employers, not random free internet people. 1/2 Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:27
  • 1
    2/2 Employers don't (and often can't) do this as they should, but they have something Stack Overflow doesn't - an interview process (yes, that's broken too.) One problem with mentoring people on the internet is that you don't know who is qualified to benefit from it. Trying to mentor anyone and everyone who asks for it is a recipe for frustration. When an inexperienced developer is hired, there's usually some commitment to help them grow. If you start mentor someone and realize that they just don't/can't get it, you're going to drop them. Both parties will hate that experience. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:30
  • 1
    @ScottHannen Correct. Mentoring is a high-effort endeavor, and something is expected from both sides. The mentor typically decides how best to do it, and often a "tough love" approach is chosen. If we are to be told how to engage with new users, that's not mentoring.
    – Ben
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:35
  • 3
    If an employer provides mentoring it's going to revolve around real work in progress. If the employer doesn't and their employee turns to me, that in effect makes me a member of the team. That perspective turns me off big-time from doing it for free. It blurs the lines. Am I doing to to help the person or doing it to help their employer? Am I doing something nice to help someone or am I providing some sort of corporate welfare? Perhaps as a condition of free mentoring they should have to apply for jobs at better companies. Send your people to us for free help and we'll help them leave you. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:56
32

Are we going to become a place where people can learn? Is this Stack Overflow's endgame?

It's probably a bit too early to say for sure. Seeing into the future is always tricky at best, but in this case there are quite a few obstacles. Let's just take a really big one.

From the blog post of Sara Chipps:

We will empower our long time users to become mentors and teachers ...

Even if this empowerment can be achieved technically, who says that their long time users want to become mentors and teachers? High quality unpaid mentoring and teaching from experts in their fields in their free time might just be too much to ask for. I don't want to say it could not work, but I think that one can have reasonable doubts about the whole plan.

7
  • 27
    High quality unpaid mentoring and teaching from experts in their fields in their free time might just be too much to ask for meta.stackexchange.com/questions/312038/… TL;DR: SO is not a community, it is a business, and we are not members of a community, we are interchangeable punters providing content to draw more punters to sell to advertisers.
    – Ben
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 21:19
  • 11
    Many long time users do want to become mentors and teachers (many joined for that very reason (but I definitely did not)). Jon Skeet is one of them. In one of the episodes of the first Stack Overflow podcast series Jeff Atwood said he was mildly offended (but the usual tongue-in-cheek probably applies) that Jon Skeet was helping beginners instead of finding a cure for cancer (that is, practically wasted effort on one-on-one encounters, even if it saved a single person 2 hours, that could instead be used elsewhere with a 1,000,000 times higher impact). Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 21:42
  • 34
    I would not mind to become a bit more of a mentor or teacher if that is the direction Stack Overflow is destined to go, but this might not be what new users expect as well. Ran into a situation again today where a user plainly stated they didn't want to learn; they just wanted a quick fix. Did have their question closed as dupe before, just deleted and reposted. So it might not just be long term users not wanting to become mentors - new users might also not want to become mentees. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 22:29
  • 10
    After reading all the sources that are given in this post, I just want to say that, SO is becoming exactly what I didn’t wanted it to be. The amount of care I did for SO is the same amount of how worried I am right now. Which is not much now :)
    – weegee
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 7:45
  • 2
    @ModusTollens - I like to incorporate a lot of explanation into my answers beyond the direct answer to the question. (I gravitate toward questions that let me do that.) Some people appreciate that and say so. Others complain on other sites that they ask a question and get a lecture. (Do they realize that the answer is for everyone who reads the question, not just them?) Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:19
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen "Many long time users do want to become mentors and teachers.." Sure, there are mentors and teachers (M&T). It's not clear if there are enough M&Ts, but making a M&T platform as long as the Q&A knowledge base is not affected should be fine. I guess that is the worry of the people right now. Going towards M&T might negatively influence Q&A. Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 20:57
  • 3
    Not only do I not have any interest in becoming a mentor myself, I'm also not enthusiastic about any part of this community focusing on mentoring. Why? Simply because this will take focus and resources away from the parts of the site and community which I'm actually interested in. I think the original goal of creating a high quality knowledge repository is what set SO apart from all other communities, thus any deviation from it is not welcome from my perspective. Teaching (rather, learning) can and should be a side effect of such a knowledge repository, mentoring certainly cannot.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 12:55
27

I don't see making the UX match our intentions as a bad thing.

  • Duplicates are good, because your question is already answered!
  • Downvotes are bad – but they'll go away if you improve your question.
  • "On hold" is temporary.
  • Off-topic means you can probably get help elsewhere – but we here don't really know enough about it. The Stack Exchange network is big.
  • Edits are nice, friendly things to make your question easier to answer / your answer clearer.
  • Comments are suggestions for improvement and requests for clarification, not scary telling-off warnings.
  • Comments are not for answers.
  • Answers are not for comments.

(I've got some suggestions for wordings for some of these here.)

We can expect new users to not have read the tour, so we need to make these things implicit in the UI. Reducing the friction between us and the new users will make helping them easier and stop them being so annoying.

(Of course, not all of these can be accomplished via UI changes – some of them require new features. Hint, hint. Hint.)

7
  • If something seems off, remember that we are here to help you sort it out. Our goal is to help you fix your problem for everyone.
    – aloisdg
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:02
  • 2
    "Off-topic" is confusing. To most people, the "topic" is whatever appears in large text at the top of the screen. By definition a "topic" is something narrow. The objective of the site as a whole is far too broad to be called a topic. So when we tell someone their question is off topic it doesn't make literal sense. We're telling them that their question isn't about what their question is about. When we say, "Off topic means..." don't do that. Don't use words that mean one thing and say that by using those words, here's what we really mean. Use words that say what you mean. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:16
  • ""On hold" is temporary." But it changes to "Closed" after a week, which is (quasi) permanent.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:24
  • @ScottHannen I agree - a lot of people equate their title or the subject of their question with the 'topic', not wrongly, I might add. I think we do have an issue with our "off-topic" close reasons... some, at least. For example, some of them are truly "off-topic", but some are more accurately "out of scope".
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:25
  • 1
    @TylerH - It's a sign of site initially developed without a good focus on UX, which is perfectly understandable. Many of these messages were likely thought up over ten years ago. It would help to review that and all of the messaging. In each case, what is the message that the user is meant to receive? Does what we tell them communicate that unambiguously, or do we throw one more straw on the camel's back by requiring them to translate "here's what we mean when we say this?" This amplifies users' frustration, and out of all the things people complain about it's one of the easiest to fix. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:36
  • @ScottHannen Not only were they thought up way after the fact, but they weren't designed for the lowest common denominator, either. They were designed for folks who probably already knew better.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 15:17
  • @ScottHannen I added a link with some proposed actual wordings – you've already read it, though.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 16:04
11

Embarrassment is more cultural than you realize.

Sure, although this doesn't mean we shouldn't try to minimise the amount of embarrassment felt on average.

Content quality as a goal is at odds with reducing friction.

Partially, yes.

You don't need that much friction to get the point across that some content is unwanted, and you can reduce friction from a UI perspective while users still close and downvote all the same posts.

I'm not reading here that we should close things less often, but rather that the problem is having (potentially) multiple users (unofficially) tell you you've done something wrong, in addition to multiple other signals saying the same. In a perfect world, you may just get a single "system" message (meaning something which looks official, not necessarily something with predefined text).

Asking questions is already painless ... The struggle point would be "beneficial"

In theory, yes. But calling out and embarrassing people is not a good way to deal with those with noble intentions. And in practice it probably makes users less likely to try to improve and either go elsewhere or just keep asking bad questions, both of which reduce overall site quality.

First, I don't think any of us really had a problem with policing the site. We had a problem with what felt like a Herculean task

If something feels like a Herculean task, doesn't that mean you have a problem with it (in this context, at least)? But I digress.

Giving people better feedback will make it more likely for them to fix their questions or ask better questions in future, which would reduce the moderation burden. Even if it is much more effective to focus on what happens before the user actually asks their question.

An improved experience would also make them more likely to get involved in moderation themselves, which would also help with the burden.

Also, some ways of addressing this problem might involve simplifying the moderation experience, which would make it easier for individual moderators to perform single tasks as well as draw in more moderators to reduce the overall load. Currently responding to a bad question might involve a downvote, a close vote or flag and a comment. If they have a problem with showing all of that, it stands to reason they may combine these in some way (especially by reducing the number of comments, which is the most work). Although hopefully not to the detriment of actually being able to give specific feedback about how to improve the question (which is a problem I often experience on The Workplace where comments are deleted with extreme bias).

16
  • 4
    That we even have downvotes and close votes and multiple questions on this site about the difference is a disconnect. I realize that there is a difference. It's just not as clear as it should be, and results in users being told they're "wrong" in two different ways. The downvote also implies that the asker will both a) understand the feedback well enough to take corrective action, b) take that action, and c) that someone will come along and upvote. The result is that it works much of the time, but it works with dissonance and frustration. Sometimes it doesn't work at all. Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 14:31
  • Hmm - the juxtaposition on the Herculean task here is a bit off, IMO. What I wanted to convey here was, generally no one here has a problem with policing the site in general. It becomes a Herculean task when it feels like we're not getting the tooling we need to be able to perform that task. Otherwise, I think I see your point.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:35
  • I guess a problem is that a new (bad) question will be downvoted by many people. Then the answer ot that is to hide it immediately it gets one, it can then be "mentored" into being a better question and resubmitted to the site, so nobodys feely-weelys get hurt. and the community will only see good questions thereafter, making sure our feelys don't get disgruntled either!
    – gbjbaanb
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:58
  • @Makoto Moderation is a problem because it's bad tools + too much to do. If what needs to be moderated were a fraction of what it is now, any problems with the tools would likely not be a big deal. That's what I was trying to get at. Although I personally have no idea which changes to the moderation tools would actually make a noticeable difference to quality of life or efficiency for me personally. I mainly see the quantity problem, or the fundamental workflow problem, e.g. trying to start reviewing a post after it goes public, which may or may not be considered a tools problem. Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 17:03
  • "multiple users (unofficially) tell you you've done something wrong": the easiest way to avoid that would be... remove the comment feature. IIRC, SO did not originally have it, and Jeff initially objected to it. People can't make rude, snarky or unwelcoming comments if they can't comment. Sure, removing the feature would make helpful interactions harder, but perhaps a radically different way of doing that interaction could be done instead. Such as clicking on a button to request interactive assistance from a "mentor", which then enables interactive chat.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 12:49
  • 1
    @Raedwald you've been reading too much Robert meta.stackexchange.com/q/299195/213575
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:04
  • 1
    @Raedwald To even consider getting rid of comments, I think we'd first need to expand a lot on the close reasons. The reasons themselves are probably okay (the free-text one might be a problem though), but a 1-3-sentence explanation can't possibly explain what's wrong with each of millions of questions and how to fix them in a way that's understandable by the masses. Each reason needs a dedicated page (in the help center, not Meta) with a few paragraphs of justification and examples, with a giant button below the close reason (not some tiny inline link) pointing there. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:11
  • @Raedwald if we're talking about removing things to make unhelpful interactions harder, why not simply remove all users? Nobody could interact anymore, problem solved! </sarcasm> No seriously, killing a useful feature because people overreact to everything (e.g. being told "you can debug this yourself by doing this and this", or being linked to docs or tutorials) is a good way to piss off everyone who writes useful comments but won't do much to appease the "gimme the codez" crowd. And any (IMO misguided) mentoring efforts could be done without removing comments.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:16
  • 1
    @Raedwald We'd also need the ability to add links, I think. Because links can be extremely relevant to certain questions, while not really fitting into an answer. But then we might be getting back to the problem emphasised by idownvotedbecau.se. What if we only allow adding related (non-duplicate) questions (from anywhere on SE?)? Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:20
  • @l4mpi When you have an established way of doing things, it can be hard to imagine a very different way of doing things. So, if comments are useful, getting rid of comments would be madness, right? But what if there was a different way of doing the good things that get done using comments? Then the comment feature could be eliminated entirely. That is my point.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:22
  • @Raedwald unless your "different way" allows me to write arbitrary messages in a way that is also immediately apparent to everyone else who stumbles upon the addressed post, it will not solve the problems comments can solve right now. E.g. say I see a good answer to a question, but have tangential information to add to it which is important to a minority of users ("in environment X when called like this and that this can result in Y"). Editing this into the post is not feasible in the general case, but putting it out of sight (so googlers won't find/read it) is useless.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:29
  • @l4mpi Putting important information in comments has never really worked all that well in my opinion. It's extremely easy miss and hard to look for because it's usually surrounded by useless or irrelevant comments and the comments format doesn't support proper paragraphs, headings, code blocks, etc. (which it also shouldn't). Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:45
  • @Dukeling well, that's your opinion and might be more indicative of your workflow than of the usefulness of comments. I have read useful comments under literally hundreds of answers (and some questions) I found while searching for solutions to programming problems. While some of those should have been an edit, in many cases editing the information into the answer would not be a good fit or derail the post. Very often a quick helpful nugget of information does not need any kind of formating and is perfectly fine as a comment.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:51
  • " If something feels like a Herculean task, doesn't that mean you have a problem with it (in this context, at least)?" I don't follow. A Herculean task is one designed to be very difficult to perform. Do you mean the assignee has a philosophical issue with the task or its parameters? Or do you just mean a problem as in "this is hard, that's my problem"? I have to assume the former because if you mean the latter, then I'm not sure what the point of saying that is.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:27
  • @TylerH As far as I'm aware, "have a problem with" roughly means having any objection to something, which would include objecting to the difficulty of it or how much work it is. The point of asking it was to request clarification for what was said in the quote, which I would paraphrase as "We don't have a problem with it; it's extremely difficult". That would be a contradiction by the above meaning. Although I might just be nitpicking and I can kind of guess what was meant there. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:10
-2

"We will empower our long time users to become mentors and teachers" - great sentiment. One way to do that is to clearly mark the questions where a teacher rather than a subject expert is needed. Then those who want to teach on SO can teach, and those who do not want to teach can keep answering the questions as domain experts.

Dare I suggest a [teach-me] tag again? Maybe in some other form, not as a tag but as a GUI enhancement. Then, rather than simply closing the 1000th NullPointerException question as a duplicate, we can refer them to those who are willing to explain. Rather than closing the homework dumps or simply writing solutions, we can have people explain how to do it right. We may even limit the ability to answer the teach-me questions to those above certain reputation, or tag reputation.

If SO is bound and determined to capture the student traffic, let it at least be done in a way that allows the answerers to choose. It's better than splitting the site or losing the answerers who do not want to be teachers.

17
  • 2
    Suppose we do as you suggest and add a tag, or an UI flag, or whatever. Take a wild guess how many new users will fail to click it, even if it's pushed in their face, highlighted in red with font size 36, and blinks. So this won't solve the problem of filtering the trash for the experts who don't want to bother with people who don't have the slightest idea what they are doing...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 12:49
  • @l4mpi It's a tool, not a magic solution. A tool needs to be used to be useful. The answer to your particular question is two-fold: make some paths through the Question Wizard set the flag by default. Make setting the flag extremely easy for experienced answerers and for teachers. And another aspect: the word will get out that setting this flag will connect you with the right people and will keep it out of sight of those who downvote and close such questions. The students will learn to set the flag :)
    – user3458
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:06
  • 3
    Having users set the flag after the question is asked would not do much to solve the issue of those questions appearing in my feed (they still appear, they just disappear after a short while - so it doesn't lower the noise level). Furthermore, keeping things "out of sight of those who downvote and close" is IMO a bad thing and not something to be happy about, because it will lead to even more trash staying aroung... unless you also ensure that everything flagged this way never appears in any search results from google or SO itself.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:19
  • "...[teach-me] tag again" - has it been tried before? If it has, what was the result? If it hasn't, there's too much enthusiasm to shut down ideas based on a hypothetical formulation of what the result would be. That has the tendency to eliminate ideas before there's a chance to think them through and possibly iron out wrinkles. I'm not saying it's a good idea. It could be bad. Even if it's bad, slow down before rejecting it. Otherwise the well of ideas will dry up real fast and the result is an echo chamber. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:52
  • The problem is the format. This site works like Stack Overflow - correct answers go up, incorrect answers go down. That's perfect when people actually know what's correct and incorrect and aren't just making educated guesses. (I say that with full recognition that the guesses may be based on experience and reason.) It's also good when someone needs to look at the "best" answer, the "next best" answer, etc. It's not so useful when you have a problem and need to evaluate the pros and cons of various approaches, compare them, consider how they might complement each other, and improve them. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:07
  • 1
    In this approach, you now create a very easy way for answerers (like myself) to segregate and prejudice questions which I don't want to answer. Then, the value of "teaching" becomes pretty poor given that I'm not doing what people are asking me to do. The nature of voluntary support of this site is just that - it's voluntary - and should the site want to do something I don't want it to do, then I'll stop volunteering my time.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:55
  • The ideology of this approach is firmly rooted to Earth by the gravitas of actually making this change. Making it voluntary makes it a poor product by design. Making it mandatory will drive away experts.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:56
  • @Makoto I am assuming that some answerers (not you, but some others) are willing to teach, at least some of the time. I am just trying to accommodate both kinds of answerers. I personally would be willing to teach, as long as it's not all the time :)
    – user3458
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:53
  • @ScottHannen It was suggested 2 years go, you can find in my questions on Meta. This is progress, actually :) Last time this was discussed, I earned a -55 score. Now it's only -3. Well, the day is young :)
    – user3458
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:57
  • Why all the downvotes for this? It seems like a pretty reasonable suggestion to me. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 12:32
  • "the problem of filtering the trash for the experts who don't want to bother with people who don't have the slightest idea what they are doing.." This is essentially the hostility that new SO users experience, distilled to a single sentence. "Experts" patrol the site, searching for "trash" left by "people who don't have the slightest idea what they are doing." Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 12:34
  • @WillisBlackburn Why the scare quotes? The experts are mostly expert indeed, and from the point of view of having a library of permanently useful questions and answers the questions are indeed trash. Now, from the mentoring point of view, these questions are a possible opportunity, bit that's not how this site started.
    – user3458
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 12:38
  • The problem with this approach is that people who are just looking for help but who can’t prove themselves worthy of asking a question of the “experts,” or who are unable to recognize their question as a duplicate because they simply don’t understand what the source of their problem is, are treated as though they are littering the site with “trash.” Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 12:48
  • The hostility starts with the view that SO is not a forum for helping people with programming questions but rather some kind of compendium of programming knowledge. This leads to posters being judged in terms of how well their question supports this larger goal and frustrates those of us—who by the way are “experts” too—who mainly are here to help people. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 12:48
  • 1
    @WillisBlackburn The notion that "SO is not a forum for helping people with programming questions but rather some kind of compendium of programming knowledge" was indeed the foundational statement of SO - the one that attracted a lot of the original answerers. If we now have a new crop of answerers who do not care about the long-term worth of their answers but rather just want to help people here and now - then we need a way for these two kinds to coexist on one site.
    – user3458
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 13:50
-35

"Answers are not for comments." Sometimes you have things to say that are relevant to the discussion / answer given, but as someone that prefers to be in the woodwork rather than answer questions every 20 minutes you have a very low score and cannot legitimately comment on an answer to help improve it.

Your only option is to write it in the answer area which is inherently wrong.

This needs changing and is a barrier to entry and interactions unless there really is a reason for it being this way.

9
  • 15
    Let's start by stepping out of the woodwork and participating in the system as intended. Comments are comments, and answers are answers. The current Q&A system values answers over comments. Approach the site from this mind set and the barrier to entry should be lessened for you.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:30
  • Exactly my point. sometimes you don't want to or even have an answer, you just want to add something to someone else's post. QED. Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:32
  • 30
    This isn't a forum, though. You can do that on a forum, but Stack Overflow isn't a forum. If you want to add something, then we want that to be something we value, too.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:32
  • 9
    There's another option - and it's kinda how the site's intended but not always how it's used because... well... lots of very complicated reasons. If you have detail to add to an existing answer that you think will help improve the answer, you can suggest an edit to improve the answer. If reviewers feel like the addition is worthy, they'll approve the edit suggestion and you'll earn two reputation to get you closer to the 50 rep you need to comment.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:35
  • Makoto - i know it isn't a forum, are you saying that comments don't ever add anything of value? This thread certainly does. Catija, that is a great comment...something no one has ever mentioned on any thread i have seen and this isn't something i have ever read either. It does put extra unnecessary administrative burden on the site staff however. Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 16:26
  • 10
    Meta's slightly different in that we do have to have conversations in comments. On the main site, comments are really not what we want to have at the forefront of value. You can't search them or award reputation for it, and you also can't really moderate it; that's up for the diamond moderators to do.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 17:05
  • 7
    It doesn't put burden on staff... suggested edits are reviewed by users with sufficient reputation and the person who wrote the post initially. If two reviewers or the OP feel that the suggestion is good, it gets approved. More info.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 18:53
  • 11
    It takes a mere 50 reputation to allow you to comment wherever you want. 50 reputation can be easily earned in a single day if you provide high quality questions/answers and dedicate a bit of time. That's a low barrier to entry - and you're saying that's too much?
    – mason
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 13:34
  • I read over this thread, and it is the perfect example of why new people can be reluctant to help / join in. What i said was correct, yet it has -34 and a delete request. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 11:45

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .