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tl;dr;There's a new ad type coming in the form of dynamic text that will lead users to documentation and courses offered by our clients, and ultimately community-curated canonical questions.

When it comes to page views on Stack Overflow and the content that we show, you basically have two types of things happening from an optimist's point of view:

  • Stuff that goes right
  • Stuff that could potentially go a lot righter

.. and not necessarily in that order.

It all essentially boils down to the goals and expectations that we set for what should happen when someone views a page on the site, and how close we come to meeting those goals. If you were to define stakeholders here, it would be you (the creators), visitors (the consumers), us (the company) and folks that spend money with us — our clients.

As we continue our endeavor to find things that improve our core Q&A experience and contribute to our bottom profit line, we look for intersections where we can make us more valuable to everyone, which often comes in the form of identifying opportunities that we've been wasting because we haven't yet discovered them.

No assumptions are safe, but I'm going to wager that most of you have happened upon developer resources made available by companies like Microsoft, Oracle and IBM. You've probably also seen resources where you might train for certifications that these various companies offer.

While these companies can also be found directly engaging with programmers by answering questions on Stack Overflow, their big compendiums of stuff remain relatively difficult to surface through a lack of exposure. As we've learned through taking care of Stack Overflow, people often find figuring out what to search for to be difficult.

We currently show a number of static ads that look something like this to the majority of visitors that arrive through search engines, let's pretend we're trying to connect to SQL Server using LOGO:

+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Hi, I'm an imitation of an image because Tim was too lazy to make one....... |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

That ad would be something letting you know SQL Server or something related to it existed, but it doesn't really help you with your current endeavor. In fact, the ad does little more than get in the way of what you hope is finally the information you've been looking for. Ever grumble out loud while trying to solve a problem in a hurry? Ever neglect to visit the lavatory until you find the solution, and found yourself exceptionally agitated with unhelpful things?

YES, I know you exist, SQL Server! I need to know how to connect to you! Get this out of my fa..

... well, enough with that while we're at work. And you shouldn't hold it in if you really need to go. But what if the ad looked like this instead:

+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  I'm an Ad from Microsoft.  Here's how to connect to SQL Server using LOGO.  |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

The ad becomes:

  • Useful to the visitor because it puts the information they were probably looking for in a very prominent place
  • Useful to our client because the content they invested tons of money into creating is actually being used
  • Useful to our active community because it helps prevent a question that probably doesn't need to be asked from being asked
  • Useful to us as a company because we make a little more money from a drive-by visit

.. and hey, you'd finally know about LEGO: A database driver for LOGO written purely in Objective LOGO. I'll stop. I know; it's getting silly.

In other words, getting back to my first paragraph, things go a little bit 'righter' on pages where this sort of magic happens. Now, if you will, imagine the same scenario, but the user is presented with a course (or perhaps even book) that would help them with the initial traction they really needed in order to get their head around the problem.

We anticipate quite a few questions about this, so let's get some obvious ones out of the way:

How does this work?

AI magic sees if it can connect the visitor to content that one of our clients would like to get better exposed. If we can understand what the visitor is trying to find, we'll generate one or more ad units in hopes that the user sees them.

The content of the page is currently the major contributor to how this is determined.

What will these new ads look like?

They'll be a sentence describing where a link is going to lead the visitor. It'll be obvious that the link is promoted, the text itself is what will allow the user to judge if the linked resource is relevant to their endeavor.

An example:

STFM

What about community-curated posts and tag wikis? Can we get more attention to them?

The current plan is to eventually identify and put 'canonical' FAQ-ish questions in our inventory, and show those when the system has confidence that there's a match.

There will be cases where intersections of interest occur, at which point sponsored content will take precedence. We're not yet at a point to contemplate how or (most likely) if competition between sponsors might occur.

Where will these new ads be shown?

The new ads will respect the reduced advertising privilege. Phew; I had to get that out of the way before anything else. Most of you won't see these unless you're not signed in, at least initially.

We're going to try leaderboard placement, as well as placement in the side bar. While we work out what works best, tests might cause these ads to be placed in addition to, or in lieu of others - we're not sure how long it's going to take to iron it out.

If you have the reduced advertising privilege, you're most likely to encounter these in the side bar, and then only on pages where we have inventory to show. Just keep in mind that we're testing if you visit the site without being logged in.

Because inventory is quite limited, it'll take a little while to see what performs best. We will update all relevant FAQs (including ad product sales literature) as soon as we land on something.

When will these be rolled out?

We'll begin testing these in at some point this week (beginning 20 May, 2018) with a rather sparse inventory, and then roll them out gradually. Performance metrics (as in server loads and stuff), click rate, interest in general and other things need to be gauged from there before we know more, and that'll take some time.

Are these Stack Overflow specific?

Yes. While they could conceivably be activated on any site where we currently display ads, they're going to need to soak for quite a while on Stack Overflow. We'll post a broader update on Meta Stack Exchange if it looks like this might be a product offered on other sites.

Questions? Please leave an answer and we'll do our best to answer it, but please anticipate a whole lot of "we don't quite know yet" beyond what has been explained in this post, at this point.

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    I will be able to pay for these with rep, right? #buygenuinehandbags
    – Pekka
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 12:58
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    This post got me curious about LOGO and databases. Now I found that there is a dialect called NetLogo that includes an extension allowing to work with CSV. Aha! Right, what was I doing again ... ? Commented May 22, 2018 at 13:14
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    Was this discussed / requested?
    – Adelin
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 13:16
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    @Adelin SO doesn't need to wait on users requests and/or on meta discussion to implement new features, IMO. Still, by announcing it here they are opening themselves up for discussion, which is much more than the vast majority of companies are willing to do.
    – yivi
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 13:25
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    Are these ads going to be served directly with the rest of the HTML, or injected after page-load with JS?
    – yivi
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 13:32
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    @Justastudent You really need to stop using depth-first searches. Commented May 22, 2018 at 13:44
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    Why is stackoverflow becoming such a drama site lately...so many changes that don't seem to fit the site. i miss the ol days. Seems like this change will make this site not so nice. Most text based ads are garbage and harm a sites reputation.
    – JonH
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:01
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    So now I can use Google to find links to a Stack Overflow page that contains the link to the content I need. So what do I need Stack Overflow for then?
    – GolezTrol
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:33
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    Doesn't this defeat the very idea of SO? Why would I come here if I will found the same coporate-ish content I can already find elsewhere... I don't understand what you're doing, guys. :/
    – Eric Aya
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 16:32
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    @Moritz I'm seriously trying to think how can this change in ads defeat the idea of SO. I mean, before asking a question here you should search if the answer already exists, so why would finding the content I need some other place affects SO at all?
    – Lamak
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 16:57
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    In my opinion, ad == spam. Commented May 22, 2018 at 20:40
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    Are you going to let Open Source projects promote their canonical documentation and training alongside of/instead of the Deep Pockets? (In line with the Open Source Advertising supported elsewhere.)
    – bishop
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 0:44
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    The aggressive language and style of this post are weird and atypical. Specifically, "Hi, I'm a crummy imitation of an image because Tim was too lazy to make one." and "YES, I F****g know you exist, SQL Server! I need to know how to connect to you! Get this useless crap out of my fa..", and the contrived example of "connect to SQL with LOGO" are unnecessarily confusing. Honestly, many people don't like smart ads that are too relevant, or ads that look like content, and this post doesn't help present the issue in a good light.
    – Kobi
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 5:23
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    It is a sponsored related link and should be treated as such. It should be placed in the sidebar, made visually distinct and indicate that it is sponsored and that it is an off-site resource. It might be relevant to some users but it should not distract from actual answers and certainly not pose as such. Commented May 23, 2018 at 8:46
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    tl;dr; — we are allowing people to post vlq answers and stick them on top of any other answers as long as they are paying for it fixed it for you. First the "welcoming" drama and now this, SO is truly no longer what it was.
    – tweray
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 18:53

21 Answers 21

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AI magic sees if it can connect the perceived intent of the visitor to content that one of our clients would like to get better exposed, and if so we generate the ads. It's marked up as promoted, and the link text itself will allow the user to judge if the linked resource is relevant to their endeavor.

Please add a feedback option. What if the link text is misleading? What if the linked resource is horrible and not helpful?

Essentially these ads will be link-only answers that you get paid for to show them above the accepted answer. Even if marked up as promoted, you (or your clients) want these to be perceived as answers, not as an ad that gets ignored by default subconsciously. We've learned to skip promoted search results.

So let us, the community, help make these links more relevant. Your AI needs training. You don't have the resources and domain knowledge to judge the quality of the linked articles. We do: let us vote on promoted answers like on all other answers.

If that LOGO database driver doesn't solve the visitors problem, they'll want to downvote it.

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    I will upvote any and all LOGO database driver answers I find. Always. That poor turtle wants its data!
    – yivi
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 13:39
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    Absolutely. But this requires that these new ads are shown to high-rep users too, and that they do not fall under the reduced advertisements privilege as announced.
    – hbaderts
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 13:41
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    [...]Your AI needs training. Exactly! That's 100% right. And here on SO we have that rare capability to help that "AI" grow and develop, from shallow and crappy, as it surely is right now, to an actual targeting system, that puts user base first, not the company who just wants to promote their useless products :-)
    – Skipper
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 13:45
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    @Skipper Well, it's actually content that the ad unit promotes, so we have the benefit of seeing the content on our page and knowing the content the client wants to promote as a resource. So it won't suffer as much from the 'strange words caused crappy product matches' (I'm certain a more industry-standard phrase exists for that) problem. But I'll find out about feedback options, similar to what we've got on other ads.
    – user50049
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 13:49
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    Relevant XKCD
    – Bergi
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 14:01
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    And technically, given my example, it's not down voting, it's moving the turtle south. I'm just sayin'
    – user50049
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 16:03
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    I like the feedback idea, and actually think hiding these "documentation ads" from high-rep users might cause confusion. Imagine some asker mentioning they followed the instructions in the "first answer" (mistaking the documentation ad for an answer) but still need help. Everyone with rep will have no idea what they saw and tried.
    – Gus
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 16:13
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    @YiShan "We are committed and excited to deliver more relevant and better experience for everyone here" - as if seeing adverts is sometimes a better experience than not seeing adverts. It's like no reality I've ever lived in. Commented May 22, 2018 at 17:52
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    @TessellatingHeckler We are not trying to say that advertising is better than no advertising. We need money and resources to continue building the company and communities. And advertising is an essential part of our revenue source. We are working to ensure the ads won't get in the way of our users and hopefully can add value at times. And if some prefer no ads at all, we don't mind if they ad blockers :)
    – Yi Shan StaffMod
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 18:05
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    What is the current recourse for reporting problematic or misleading ads? Is it the Contact page? Or coming to Meta? I don't see any ads so I don't know if there is a "Report" link associated with them currently.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 19:53
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    Feedback would definitely help prevent it from devolving into Buzzfeed-style "10 Amazing Things You Can Do With LOGO!"
    – Izkata
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 21:53
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    "The new ads will respect the reduced advertising privilege." - which means that even if voting is enabled, it will mostly be voted on by people who lack the domain knowledge to properly judge the resource quality. W3schools will soar. Time for me to leave in disgust. Commented May 22, 2018 at 23:42
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    While I'd suggest waiting for the feature to be rolled out and looking at it before leaving in disgust, what @John says is of course a very valid concern. It's the knowledgeable users in a tag that should be providing the feedback. Also, what if I follow a sponsored link, find out it is low quality, and return to the question - am I guaranteed to still be seeing the same ad there so I can provide feedback?
    – Pekka
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 8:18
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    So not only "monetise us" but "monetise us and get us to train your system for you"?
    – Basic
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 12:44
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    @Basic I just want an official and effective way to complain about ads I don't like. But I needed to sell them the idea that there's something in for them :-)
    – Bergi
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 9:48
186

From my impression Stack Overflow with this addition will look more like all those imitation sites that mimic Stack Overflow's look and feel, with all these suspicious links all over that makes you check five times if you're on the correct page and not mistyped and landed on stuckonoverflow.com or something similar.

Please brand the ads as something like:

A sponsored tip from the publisher of the framework/tool used in this question.

Make it clear it's an ad, that it's a stackoverflow.com ad and not some ad network generic ad that will secretly lead me to a world of viagra and twenty tabs open if I leave it open for too long.

Maybe add a "Why am I seeing this" explanation link as well.

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    Something along the lines of google ads? Obvious but not obnoxious in declaring it an ad?
    – Passer By
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:58
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    yea, transparency helps a lot. It also adds that discerning element that helps you decide you're on the correct stackoverflow. Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:59
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    Isn't the screenshot in the question clear enough? i.sstatic.net/SeGNn.png Seems pretty clear that's an ad to me.
    – Ajedi32
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 19:31
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    @Ajedi32 I just realized that it could've been like. "PROMOTED CONTENT (...that means do NOT click it!)" ^^
    – Skipper
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 19:40
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    @Ajedi32 it looks too much like the ads on the spoof sites. It would make me doubt if I'm on a legititemate site. Commented May 22, 2018 at 19:46
  • @Skipper Why would you tell users not to click the ad? Online ads are meant be clicked, that's the whole reason they exist. Ideally the ad should be relevant enough that the user will decide to click on it because they will get something useful out of doing so.
    – Ajedi32
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 19:51
  • @Ajedi32 Yea, I get it... You know it that was a joke, right? :) :)
    – Skipper
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 19:54
  • @Tschallacka So you're saying StackOverflow should tweak the style of their ads to make them look less like ads on other sites do? I don't really see what the point of that would be...
    – Ajedi32
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 19:54
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    To make it clear that it's a stack overflow ad, provided by stackoverflow, recognisable as such. It's relatively easy to stumble onto those clone websites. It makes discerning valid stackoverflow against clones easier. Commented May 22, 2018 at 21:47
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    stuckonoverflow.com, LOL!
    – 41686d6564
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 1:16
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    These were my thoughts as well. Search google → get to Stack Overflow → see tailored ad with the keyword you've searched → something is suspicious. This is the same feeling you get in software sites that have fake "Download" buttons in ads.
    – Kobi
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 5:12
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    @Ajedi32 the point is that over time users learn that any variation on "Ad", "Sponsored link", "Promoted" etc. annotating a link should always be mentally translated to "DO NOT READ DO NOT CLICK". Even if it actually looks relevant to what you want, you learn to keep clicking through to the next "real results" page in the hopes of finding the same link as a legitimate result. Commented May 24, 2018 at 9:00
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From your example this looks quite a bit like native advertisement.

Now, you're probably still going to disclose that it is indeed an ad with the little "sponsored content" blurb, but from the rest of the ad, particularly based on what is shown, it seems like you're advoiding the "This is an ad" impression deliberately.

That's the purpose of native advertising: tricking users into thinking something is not an ad.

If these are placed below questions but above answers, this would indicate deliberate deception to fool users into thinking it's not actually an ad. The small and easy to overlook "sponsored content" snipped on the side supports that view.

Native advertisement is all about trickery:

The power within native advertising, however, is to inhibit a consumers' ad recognition by blending the ad into the native content of the platform, making many consumers unaware they are looking at an ad to begin with.

(from here)

Which measures will Stack Exchange take to make sure its users don't confuse this new form of advertising with genuine content? And how will you balance the interests of your clients wanting their ads to appear as much like regular content as possible with the interest of us users to not be decieved?

To clarify, I don't think SE will suddenly start to try and trick us into buying stuff, but I can see this question coming up with how much this looks like native advertisement.

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    Well, they'll be easy enough to block outright if someone wanted, and we're actually more concerned with making sure people see the unit, so making it blend in is actually pretty bad for our goals. But I've relayed this to the ads team and they're chewing on how to make sure they get the right amount of feedback on a per-ad basis. Thanks for your input here!
    – user50049
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:33
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    I honestly don't see how you'd mistake this for native content. It's clearly labeled "Promoted Content" in the header.
    – Ajedi32
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 19:34
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    Frankly I don't see the problem with replacing classical ads with 'native' ads that actually serve a function to every day users. The kind of ads Tim has talked about thus far would honestly be improvements over a lot of actual answers by actual people that get posted to the site these days...
    – TylerH
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 20:00
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    IMO they don't seem all that native to me, but even so they deserve to be a little bit native since they do actually attempt to answer the question. Commented May 23, 2018 at 4:24
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These are effectively sponsored (LQ) answers.

On balance, I think the implementation of this is a bad idea for the following reasons:

  • Stack Overflow is designed to be a repository of information, not a repository of signposts.
  • If the resource is useful, then the sponsor stops paying, what happens? Does that useful resource vanish from the question?
    • If not, what about link rot?
  • If the resource is not useful, then the sponsor stops paying, what happens? Does that useless resource stick to the question forevermore?
  • To quote the famous answer:

    Links are fantastic, but they should never be the only piece of information in your answer.

    An analogy would be if you are standing at 100 Main St. and you ask where 98 Main St. is. A good answer would be

    "It is the next building over". points at building

    If you instead include a link, you are saying

    "I'll direct you to a tourism information booth, and they will be able to provide you with your answer and much more!"

    Which is great, however, you haven't answered their question at all, you've deferred the answering to somewhere else. And in this (fictitious) case the person has to take quite a detour to get to their destination.

  • Where would they go?
    • If these are displayed all around the site, they'll be too generic to be useful.
    • If these are displayed on specific questions, an answer would be more specific, more useful and cheaper for the company.
    • The only place I can think of these being useful would be in the search, and most people only use that for SO-specific technical searches so that wouldn't be very profitable.
  • If SO considers these to be useful, why is their visibility tied to the Reduce Advertisements setting?
    • Is it because they just didn't think this far? Unlikely, but possible; these are humans after all.
    • Is it due to technical constraints? Considering that they're implementing a completely new feature, I doubt adding a preference for it would be that hard by comparison.
    • Is it because they know more than us and know that these are bad? I'd be very disappointed if that's the case...

I suspect that this could be done quite well... but I don't think this is it. It might be useful for sites like MSDN that are full of hidden, arcane knowledge and can only be searched in a very mechanical manner but for most cases this would be better served by an answer bot with answers that can be voted on.

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    "These are effectively sponsored (LQ) answers" -- It doesn't look like that to me. From what I gather out of this thread, they won't look like a post, won't be subject to voting as we know it, the content won't actually be here, and we don't even know whether the relation between Q&As and ads will be a function rather than many-to-many.
    – duplode
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 1:07
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    I would assume the ads would disappear if no longer payed for since they are ads. Why would you assume they will stay permanently?
    – Shaido
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 1:38
  • @Shaido They can't stop questions from being asked of they're only temporary.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 6:47
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    @wizzwizz4 Why not? As long as the ad is in place there is a chance it can help someone which could lead to that person not asking a question. Whether the ad is permanent or not shouldn't affect this, right? Or is there some other way these ads could stop questions from being asked that I'm not seeing? As I understand it, this is basically ads that are trying to be more relevant to the problem the person is trying to solve.
    – Shaido
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 7:06
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    @Shaido It's contrary to the point of SO if useful information is only available to some people.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 7:08
  • @wizzwizz4 I don't see what that has to do with ads being permanent or not. However, it should be available in the side bar for all users (from the post: If you have the reduced advertising privilege, you're most likely to encounter these in the side bar). But I don't think the usefulness of ads can at all be compared with a good answer.
    – Shaido
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 7:13
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    @Shaido The point is that if the feature is actually being helpful and directing users to the answer to their question then why would you want to take that away just because they stopped being paid for? You'd be removing a useful feature that would have been helpful to your users. The only reason to want to take it away is because it's not actually being helpful.
    – Servy
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 13:30
  • @Servy Since from what I understand, the purpose of these ads is to earn money. Keeping them if they stopped being paid for would defeat this purpose, which is why I believe these won't be permanent. As for how useful they would be to the users - hopefully there will be some statistics presented after it's been rolled out.
    – Shaido
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 13:55
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    @Shaido Yes, the answer acknowledges that they almost certainly won't keep them. The whole point is that that's a problem, as it's causing problems for the site for the purpose of making money, rather than finding way of monetizing that aren't causing problems for the site. Refusing to show information that you know would be helpful to someone just because the owner of that information isn't paying you is rather against the whole mission of the site.
    – Servy
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 13:57
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    If the resource is useful... - Put it in an actual answer that isn't a link only post so it's useful and visible to everyone who visits the page all the time and not just sometimes and only to some users.
    – BSMP
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 20:57
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    This is an insightful viewpoint. One place I can think of that these ads might actually be useful is as a suggestion when writing a question, although matching a good SO question would still be much better.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 1:48
  • @duplode If the ad content is intended to provide information that contains an answer to the question ("Useful to the visitor because it puts the information they were probably looking for in a very prominent place"), then how is it not equivalent to a link-only answer? Sure, the fact it's temporary and not seen by some users is are differentiating factors, but they actually makes it less useful than a link only answer. That's the point of this answer: these ads are a worse version of link-only answers.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 1:53
  • @jpmc26 [1/2] Other differentiating factors aside, there is also the matter of how precise the matching of ads to questions will be. I hazard that more often than not the targeting, accurate as it may be, won't be precise enough to address the question as specifically and concretely as an actual answer would. A perhaps better comparison would be with a "suggested reading" comment -- possibly helpful, possibly tangential (and possibly both helpful and tangential), and not necessarily the last stop (or next-to-last, if you will) in the search for a solution.
    – duplode
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 4:03
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    @duplode The link disappearing after it's broken still means the information is not available from the question anymore. A link breaking isn't a problem by itself. The problem is that the information is no longer reachable. That's why a useful link only answer is best handled by editing it to include the information; this ensures that the information will remain available as long as the question is. An ad disappearing has the same problem, except its information can't be edited in to preserve it and it's not going into the review queue and it can't be flagged. Same problem, harder to solve.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 4:08
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    You can't spin it as being a positive in-and-of itself, then say it will be added/removed as people pay. Either you're adding something high value (in which case its removal is a loss to the community) or you're not (in which case its inclusion is a loss to the community).
    – Basic
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 11:35
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You say that these ads are

Useful to our active community because it helps prevent a question that probably doesn't need to be asked from being asked

which implies they will be shown on the ask page in an attempt to connect the querent with an official, albeit sponsored, answer. That would actually be pretty neat, helping the user RTFM before asking, though it's odd that you'd ask companies to pay in order for their users to not be a burden on the people who provide useful content to you. But later you say only

We're going to try leaderboard placement, as well as placement in the side bar. [...] only on pages where we have inventory to show

which suggests they will be shown indiscriminately on all pages. That's considerably less helpful because the "question that probably doesn't need to be asked" will stick around. It might even attract unnecessary answers from the kind of users who are happy to answer questions that didn't need to be asked. But even if not, if the company stops paying (or just rearranges their website without telling their marketing department), the official sponsored answer will disappear, so the question can't even be a signpost for the documentation.

I can see how this benefits the company and "[your] clients", but it seems unlikely to help the visitors, and to provide negative value to "the creators" interested in the long-term usefulness of the site.

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The new ads will respect the reduced advertising privilege. .... Most of you won't see these unless you're not signed in, at least initially

Can we get some clarity on this statement, particularly the statement "at least initially". Do you mean that eventually you expect to roll this out to all users "reduced advertising" or not? Seems a bit of a slippery slope to me...

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    I guess, if it works really well, it makes sense to show the ads to everybody, since they would be valuable content in the context of the question. Why would you want to be 'privileged' to not see the solution to your problem?
    – GolezTrol
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 21:53
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    @GolezTrol If it's "valuable content in the context of the question," doesn't it belong in an answer? Why does it belong in an ad not every is going to see?
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 3:46
  • I would prefer not to see adverts as answers (full stop) So seem to be saying "don't worry you won't see these adverts no need to make a fuss" I suspect only to say "remember that thing we said not too worry about we've decided you all get it now, yea!". If they plan on doing that it would be good to be upfront about it.
    – Liam
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 8:00
  • I mean if you can't even trust Google not to be Evil anymore who can you trust...
    – Liam
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 8:03
  • 1
    @jpmc26 My point exactly, but this new thing suggests that the ads are to be considered answers in a way, and hiding them would hide those 'answers' from higher rep users, which might be bad. That's why I think it makes sense that they bypass the reduced advertising privilege. But note that this is me trying to roll with the whole plan of doing this, and explaining why it says "at least initially". Am I in favor of adding these ads at all? No, but for motivating that, a comment isn't enough, so I wrote an answer for that.
    – GolezTrol
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 10:01
  • this new thing suggests that the ads are to be considered answers in a way @GolezTrol I disagree. They're hoping the ads are useful and even prevent some questions in the case that they do give an asker the information they're looking for but there's nothing in the post to suggest that the ads actually be treated the same as answer posts.
    – BSMP
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 14:23
  • 1
    @BSMP I think it's more likely that they hope the adverts generate revenue.
    – Liam
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 14:33
  • @Liam That still doesn't mean the ads are supposed to be answers.
    – BSMP
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 14:59
14

I think if that documentation would help, the asker would have found it already though Google. If they didn't, it's likely because

  • They searched but didn't find the docs.
  • They found it, but it didn't answer their question.
  • They didn't search at all.

If they didn't find the docs through Google's incredibly smart search engine, then maybe it isn't there, or not at all in a way the user is looking for. Or it's just very poorly indexed, but I doubt if a company that is so bad at SEO is going to provide proper input for the AI matching system. Whatever the situation, I doubt if SO's AI would be able to find a match for this case.

If it didn't answer their question, neither will it through a sponsored link.

If they didn't search, this question is probably useless anyway. The answer is already there in the canonical documentation, and probably in a handful of duplicates as well. The only purpose of this question, is to draw traffic from google to SO, so SO gets a redirect fee, basically stealing the direct traffic to the canonical website and having them pay for it.

It's not very different from those price comparison websites that first acquire prime ranking and then let shops pay to have their links on there. The main difference is that those shops will make money of such a redirect, while Microsoft probably won't make or save any money by putting this sponsored content here, unless, maybe, if it would happen to be the exactly correct answer to an otherwise unanswered question, by a user who was just in the decision making process of buying this product they are experimenting with. I wouldn't bet on it.

If sponsored content is going to be here, my preference would be to show it to the user while they are typing the question, and basically ask them whether that page answers their question, so it doesn't have to be posted at all. You suggest this will happen. I sincerely hope so.

And the same AI could also search for on-site duplicates. In fact, I'd use that to get started, because my current impression is that those possible duplicate suggestions are not very useful most of the time. So if the AI could propose links to other questions that actually cover the question that I'm typing, then I think that could prove that it's smart enough to handle sponsored links as well.

Of course that has the disadvantage of having less posts, therefore maybe less traffic, and at least less ad income, but there are advantages as well, like having a cleaner repository with less pollution and moreover less manual labor to keep it so. And who knows, it might become so smart that it can automatically link older related questions together too.

If the AI is currently already doing these things, then I have to apologize for not noticing..

1
  • Some docs are really very well hidden even to crawlers, or people don't know what keywords to look for.
    – Nemo
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 18:24
12

If the feature is smart enough to detect what users might need, it would be more useful if it linked to what people need and not to what big companies pay you to link to.

There is not enough sugar coating in Charlies Chocolate Factory to distract from the fact that ads are evil. A necessary evil, maybe, but still evil. Ads pollute the communication space.

Please don't make the site annoying instead of pleasant. At least make sure that ad blockers are still allowed to keep it pleasant.

The new ads will respect the reduced advertising privilege.

Sounds reassuring ...

12

There is no way to have ads that does not piss off your users

With ads you have three choices: your users don't see them, your users subconsciously ignore them, or they piss off your users. Presumably the first two types don't make much money and aren't worth bothering with.

Answer-like ads aren't helpful for Q&A unless they're actually treated as answers.

My first reaction to the title was "We already have image/animation ads, you want to put text ads there so they take up less bandwidth and have less potential for exploiting Spectre vulnerabilities in our browsers? Sweet!". Then I realised you want to make the ads look like answers.

Software companies do not need a separate mechanism for showing users answers to their questions. They can simply answer the questions. They should be subject to the same criteria as any other answers. Then if they're bad answers, people can vote them down, for example.

At best, you should copy the text from the page that attempts to solve the problem. Because that is how link-only answers work.

At worst, you could have a special exception that answers are allowed to be link-only if they're sponsored. The link can still be voted and commented on.

And to be clear - these answer-ads are answers. They may not be stored in the "answers" table in your database, but if they look like answers, smell like answers, and quack like answers, they're answers (and if you don't call them answers then you are out of touch with the domain).

If they're in the sidebar or above the question or below the answers, then they are not answers and the stuff I just said about sponsored answers doesn't apply. If they're in between the question and the answers, then they are answers.

11

First, an opinion: Nobody using a site likes ads. But companies need revenue too.. so, whatever. It seems like a fairly industry-standard way of monetizing a site.

Second, @Gus had a very valid point in his comment to @Bergi's thoughts:

... Imagine some asker mentioning they followed the instructions in the "first answer" (mistaking the documentation ad for an answer) but still need help. ...

If these ads are to be presented as "Answers", then they need to be permanent for each particular Question. Otherwise confusion could quickly ensue.

@One "That solution presented in the 'first answer' didn't work for me." ...
@Two "There is no code in the first answer." ...
@One "Of course there is, it said blah blah blah" ...
@Two "No, that's an article about the effects of xyz on yadda yadda" ...

So either the ads need to be permanent fixtures of the Question (just like an Answer is) and shown to all users, or it needs to be very clear that these are not answers.

Suggestion: How about instead of presenting these ads on the Question pages, they are shown above the search results when someone begins to type the title for a question they want to ask?

1
  • +1 because suggestion about showing matching documentation ad when someone begins to type the title for a question they want to ask might be usable (if matching is good enough). But I disagree with the rest of the answer (the part that SO should be made unusable because that is the standard way the rest of industry is heading... it we actually liked the way the rest of the industry is working, we'd be there, not here) Commented May 24, 2018 at 21:34
9

This doesn't make sense as an approach to me.

You're talking about training an AI to find relevant information to a question. But SO already tries to find relevant information to a question: it's labeled "Questions that may already have your answer" when you start typing in your question. There's also the related links in the sidebar. If an AI can find relevant content better than these systems, wouldn't it be put to better use finding other questions on SO than finding sponsored documentation that may or may not be relevant? Why not just use it to replace those systems? In other words, if SO can solve the problem at all, why isn't it doing so with its own content? I'm confident there's very little information in documentation that hasn't already found its way into SO somewhere.

On the other hand, if the AI won't be better than the frequently useless suggestion box, then how can it possibly find useful content for an off-site resource that it's probably not even scanning the full text of anyway? The pool of useful content is going to necessarily be limited, anyway, since only paid advertisers will be in the pool. This makes it even less likely that the AI can find relevant content at all, even assuming perfect matching capabilities.

I just don't see how it could be useful in practice.

9

This sounds like Related in the sidebar. I sometimes use that, and sometimes it's useful. I turn to Related in the sidebar when the provided answers don't help or there aren't any answers yet. I can imagine using a new "Related 3rd Party Documentation" section in the sidebar in a similar way. I would not appreciate sponsored documentation links that are embedded within the main content area (questions, answers, and comments). It would be distracting to me considering that I usually arrive at SO through Google because I have an issue (like an idiosyncrasy of a framework that I am trying to work around) which MSDN, bloggers, etc. don't address.

To rephrase the last sentence, SO helps me solve problems when I understand the framework/language/foo/bar quite well but have hit a mysterious wall that official documentation just doesn't cover, but a blog post, GitHub issue, or SO answer might. Pointing me to official documentation will only very occasionally help me. So seeing that in the flow of answers will not be appreciated, but having it available in the sidebar would occasionally be helpful.

SO Related

3
  • This sounds like Related in the sidebar. This comparison makes much more sense.
    – BSMP
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 14:27
  • +1 This seems way less intrusive than ads in the content area while still preserving the idea of advertising documentation by third parties. I like it.
    – TuringTux
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 14:53
  • +1 this a about only idea so far which might be tolerable (if the ad matching mechanism works good, that is) Commented May 24, 2018 at 21:30
6

I like the general idea of having an AI that locates the relevant "official" documentation. That saves me a lot of work, especially when it's not obvious where to go to find said documentation.

There's one big glaring problem here. These ads are nothing more than link-only answers. If a user posted the exact same thing, it would get downvoted as not useful. And for good reason. Link rot is a major problem, and SO does a good job at actively avoiding that problem.

These ads will likely be the first "answers" that appear for a question since they're posted automatically. If the linked content answers the question, few (if any) "real" answers will be provided, and the poster will have less incentive to come back and accept an answer. Once the link no longer points to the relevant content, that whole question becomes useless.

To be honest, one of the big reasons I look for answers on SO is because companies like Microsoft do documentation so poorly. A regular web search shows hits in blog/forum posts that link to the official docs, but those links go stale fast, older documentation goes away once a new version gets released, etc. SO is good at providing the actual content in the answer, so searching here is a much better return on investment. If we start seeing a non-trivial number of questions get successfully answered by these AI-generated link-only answers, the overall value of SO as a resource goes down.

A workaround might be to find questions like these, follow the link to the official docs, and then copy/paste the relevant material into an answer. That would likely work for open source projects but for commercial software, might constitute copyright infringement. Even if the answerer takes the time to paraphrase the linked content in their own words and tweak the example code, there may still be a risk. The "referrer" metadata on a HTTP request makes it easy for a company to see which SO questions result in hits to their docs. Can a company come after a user for taking their content and posting a modified version of it on SO where it is distributed under an incompatible license? The bar for fair use vs. infringement is a bit higher when you're posting something immediately below a link to the copyrighted original.

I think the only real solution here is if the AI-generated content is held to the same quality standards as user-generated content. If that's not feasible, the legal terms between SE and advertisers needs to include terms that allow users to take the steps necessary to avoid the problems associated with link-only answers. And then of course one day someone writes a bot to do this automatically, and the whole

2
  • 1
    To me, these ads seem far less problematic than link-only answers, precisely due to the extent to which they are not answers. A better comparison would be with link-only comments. (The above is a condensed version of the comments I exchanged with jpmc26 on another answer here.)
    – duplode
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 4:41
  • Thinking one step further, wouldn't the same AI have a decent change to fix a broken link?
    – Raphael
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 9:13
6

We're going to try leaderboard placement, as well as placement in the side bar.

I believe there is a good reason to have those ads in the side bar, regardless of whether they will also be in the leaderboard: that will ensure users with 200+ rep will occasionally see them, and thus be able to provide feedback. That would mitigate the problem of not showing the ads to the users who are presumably better able to evaluate their usefulness.

3

I will just shortly react to that book part in

but the user is presented with a course (or perhaps even book)

as that interests me perhaps the most. I have bought and read huge amount of books about programming and software development (I still do). And I have read lots of reviews on Amazon, Quora recommendations, MIT recommendations and many many more and I can say only one thing about that, it is opinion based at best, misleading and often time/money-wasting at worst. (not all the time ofc.)

Let's be honest here. Most of the books about programming/software development are either copies of other, previously published books (and poor copies for that matter), or simply just not really useful (nice way to put it).

I am not saying that book recommendation is bad idea in its nature (I myself would be glad if there were some reliable source for this kind of information), but how do you want to managed that without misleading users into buying some product of low quality?

I don't think that user voting will help here that much (see Quora where there are tons of recommendations for books of really low quality) as well as I am afraid that sponsored links will simply be either irrelevant or wasting users' money.

I am not really asking for any clarification, but rather pointing out something to think about, because this kind of stuff can degrade any site (even SO).

3
  • 1
    There is kind of this massive list of books already prepared by the community.... stackoverflow.com/q/1711/1026459
    – Travis J
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 19:38
  • @TravisJ just from a glance on the first page I recognize some really good books. Thanks for pointing me to that post, I will surely go through it. Commented May 23, 2018 at 19:46
  • 4
    I'm not sure how often an asker pays attention to an answer saying "go read a book" when time constraints are involved. People are more open to reading if it's a topic they are interested in learning more about, but I think the vast majority of questions are of the "I need x for my job/homework and the deadline is imminent" variety. A book recommendation in that situation usually falls on deaf ears.
    – Troyen
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 23:37
3

I think there are two very separate ideas here.

Seemingly helpful links that are really ads: SO was built to work around sub-par documentation (and ineffective support channels, I guess). Now we're going to have promoted links to that same content SO is supposed to replace. Please clarify how that is meaningful (except as part of your business model, that part I get).

Actually helpful links that are selected from a list: Applying that same tech to community-curated (!) collections of books, courses, or questions (e.g. the reference questions we have on Computer Science) without any user interaction (you mention AI as a driver) is an interesting possibility. It begs some questions, though:

  1. Will network sites have the opportunity to enable, configure, and monitor the feature?
  2. Will we be able to see which references were shown/recommended to an asker?
  3. Will non-ad links be shown to logged-in users (especially newcomers with lots of network rep)?

In short, will this be a feature we can use constructively, or will it be just ads with sugar coating?

0
2

A question for the team: to which extent will the "AI magic" attempt to narrow down the scope of the selected ad targets? (For instance, one extreme might be returning a landing page for a whole section of MSDN, while the other might be returning an entry for an overload of a specific method.)

(My motivation for asking it: A lot of the reactions in this discussion regards the ads as competing with actual answers. My gut feeling, however, is that it won't turn out like that. One of the reasons I feel so is that it seems unlikely the ads will be consistently able to address questions, in their unavoidable concreteness, in a manner as specific as answers do, and that trying to make the matching too precise will make it less accurate -- i.e. going for laser-like targeting will increase the rate of irrelevant ads a lot.)

2
  1. Open source docs matter

To jump on something others have said, I think linking to quality Open Source project documentation that don't have a budget should be part of this effort. It would raise good will, could encourage improving documentation in OS (funny that SO is OS backwards!? anyone anyone?), and may even raise SO as a go-to resource (and not just what shows up near the top of Google's results).

All related external documentation links could appear in the same box and be seen by all. Links for open source (.NET Core) and closed source (SQL Server) side-by-side with one disclaimer for the entire box. Closed source has a greater incentive to pay you because they are literally trying to sell their product and possibly offset their own support costs by increasing the likelihood that people help themselves through SO presenting high quality answers of all kinds. Open source also benefits and all the free work SO contributors have provided is reciprocated.

  1. Incentive: SO is the go-to resource and not just another Google result

If SO search worked well, and lead me to good "native" questions and answers, as well as 3rd party docs of all kinds I might even consider Stack Overflow search my first stop for researching programming questions instead of Google. But the limited scope of paying sponsors, and the dubious quality of SO search wouldn't tip me over that edge. I don't want to first use SO Search, fail, and then go use Google. <-- True story: I tried SO search yesterday and ended up Googling to arrive at an SO answer, haha. I will just use Google first. But give me a Chrome browser extension because it really has to be convenient, and a high probability that my question will be, uh, answered, then I'm interested.

(Firefox has that search box instead of Chrome's omniwhatever, I used to dislike it for aesthetic reasons but now I see how Firefox's search box evens the search playing field some.)

1

I think this is a neat idea. Hopefully it is used in coordination with the QA pair's efforts and not in lieu of them. Which is to say, answering a request for a tutorial with a literal link to a tutorial in an ad may be counter productive to the site's overall mechanics. That should be a small edge case though. On the other hand, with 8.8 million users small edge cases really add up.

One other route to go with this would also be to see if you can potentially get something going with Amazon to share links to books which were on topic to the QA pair.

-3

So it's time for me to speak on ads finally.

I must disagree with "there's no way to have ads without expletive your users."

I have left reduce ads enabled, and my ad blocker is currently squashing the rest. It's not the ads that are offensive to me, it's the images, and that because they're rendered on the most popular OS settings and always come out hard to read for me. I really don't want to leave something on the screen that's hard to read and brighter than the content. On the other hand, put in text ads and I might even track down why the adblocker is removing them and disable that rule.

-6

Stack Overflow exists because companies are, by and large, terrible at providing relevant and useful documentation. In any case, even with the best will in the world, no company can address everyone's edge cases within their documentation.

By promoting this documentation over actual answers written to cater to specific questions, that have community endorsement and improvement, you are working against the core mission of the site.

You refer to the system as "AI magic". It is not magic. It is a deterministic system that will get things right or wrong in a presumably opaque manner that is under tension from competing constraints. Getting things wrong here - and for some people any advertisement will not be appropriate - will destroy some of the value of the site.

20
  • 39
    Lots of companies have lots of great documentation. SO is an extremely poor replacement for documentation. SO's main value comes in providing information that goes above and beyond what documentation provides, not in replacing it. The core mission of the site is not to just duplicate all of the content in language documentation. The core mission is to help developers find the solutions to their programming problems. If the solution is in the documentation, then that's great.
    – Servy
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:19
  • 9
    @Servy In my experience, official documentation tends to be poor or at least inconsistent. Perhaps I should broaden my experiences though. If the documentation is good and answers the question then surely someone will link to it in an answer in any case. Why insert this content - essentially allowing companies to buy votes? That is what I meant by core mission - that answers are promoted by community consensus on quality through votes, not by someone spending money.
    – James
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:30
  • Well ideally if the question is answered by existing documentation the question wouldn't be asked in the first place, and the user would be shown the information before even posting the question, and only need to ask if the existing documentation failed to adequately answer the question. Creating questions just to repeat or link to documentation isn't useful.
    – Servy
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:37
  • 1
    "Why insert this content - essentially allowing companies to buy votes?" -- There will be no votes of the customary kind: we are talking about ads, not answers. As long as the ads are clearly labelled as such, their targets are adequately vetted, and there is a way to report problematic ones, I don't see reasons to be worried.
    – duplode
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:40
  • 1
    So then should the system just intercept the question prior to fully posting rather than insert advertising after the fact?
    – James
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:41
  • @James I think that would make for a better version of this feature personally, if you could find a way to make it work (there are logistical problems with fitting it into the ask a question workflow, I haven't really thought through the specifics).
    – Servy
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:43
  • @duplode "their targets are adequately vetted" - I don't get the impression this will take place, hence the talk of "magic".
    – James
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:45
  • @James I got the impression that the actual content being promoted would be well vetted, as that's the case for all of SE's ads at the moment already, and that it was merely the determination of what content to post on what page and when that was the heavily automated part, but perhaps Tim will clarify.
    – Servy
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:49
  • 1
    @James As I understand it, the "magic" is about which ad will be picked from a pool to be displayed on a specific Q&A page. The vetting I'm talking about would happen in an earlier step, namely, that of picking target sites with content of sufficient quality (cf. also Servy's latest comment). I believe there is general agreement on Stack Overflow having been doing a good job in selecting relevant and appropriate ads over the years, so there are reasons to be optimistic on they not dropping the ball this time.
    – duplode
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 15:55
  • Well hopefully it won't go disastrously. I'm still not sure what problem this is supposed to solve though.
    – James
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 16:06
  • 12
    @James It's an ad that we make money from showing. We also tried to make it useful for others too. If you find documentation that eluded you previously and go on to ask a better question subsequently, I consider that a win. Most of our traffic is anonymous, they merely read the site. So putting additional resources there for them, in addition to our content, and paying some server bills all at the same time - that's .. definitely not awful.
    – user50049
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 16:36
  • 10
    Hey, because companies are so bad at this, what if we would start a project to store documentation on SO instead? </troll>
    – Lundin
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 11:11
  • 1
    @Servy I don't particularly think it's a good idea, either, but SO has clearly established they consider such questions acceptable. On the more useful side, though, some very good posts interweave various pieces documentation into a more coherent answer than is available from just reading the docs. It's difficult to write documentation in such a way that it reveals all the different interactions between various parts, much less the pitfalls and the norms of using the system. Either way, improving the suggestion system is categorically more useful than these ads.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 13:37
  • 1
    @jpmc26 Sure, there are certainly SO questions that address problems not brought up in documentation. If it didn't I wouldn't be here. But when the documentation or other official resources do provide a good solution to the problem, it's great for people to be directed there. Directing people to a solution on SO is appropriate when the documentation fails to adequately solve the problem.
    – Servy
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 13:43
  • 1
    @jpmc26 Tim said they were looking to add in 4, for 5 if the page fails to answer the question then that would merit a new question being posted, for 6, I've never seen any documentation that handled versioning worse than SO; SO is quite bad at handling versing of an issue, for the last point, I strongly disagree. The first three points are all very much actual problems, but they don't result in the feature being actively harmful, but rather it just not being helpful, which isn't good, but also isn't grounds to not let it be helpful in other cases where it could be.
    – Servy
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 15:06

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