54

I am referring to this answer: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/366783/1360803

I have reproduced it here as image in case it gets deleted in the future:

SO employee tells other people what they have written is garbage

It is accompanied by this comment:

SO employee stands behind garbage

I am deeply troubled by this.

We have a "Be Nice" policy.

Why is calling another users contribution "garbage" - no matter how strongly you disagree with it - considered "Being Nice"?

I have flagged this post as rude/abusive, a flag which was disputed. Am I to assume that it is the official stance of SE, Inc. and the moderators here, that calling another users contribution "garbage" is considered allowed under the "Be Nice" policy? Because that is the only reasonable interpretation I can find for this flag to be disputed.

I think the hypocrisy in this whole thing could not be greater. On the one hand, SE, Inc. is telling us we aren't welcoming and are rude, on the other hand their employees are running rampart and behaving in a way that simply is unacceptable (to me) under the "Be Nice" policy, and this is considered ok?

I would like to have a clarification on this matter. Are employees of SE, Inc. exempt from site rules like the "Be Nice" policy?

I really don't understand this site anymore. It used to be about quality content, and rude behavior used to be dealt with. Right now, everyone seems to run around in circles, and stuff like that is allowed?

There sure are a thousand things to improve on SO, but I really don't see how we could possible solve them and be more welcoming (without compromising the very foundation the site was build on - quality content), when the tone set forth by SE, Inc. for this discussion is calling another users contribution "garbage".

(Yes, I am late to the party, that answer is a few days old - but since meta has become a soap opera recently, I stopped following it regularly - but I am still shocked to see this kind of behavior)

33
  • 13
    Tangential (but relevant) note: the answer had been edited on May 2 to give it less aggressive tone, but the edit was rolled back on May 7. The May 7 rollback was completely inappropriate, as it served no purpose other than inviting a bonus episode of the soap opera.
    – duplode
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 13:04
  • 9
    @duplode Thanks - but that does not explain why an employee of SE, Inc thought this was a good idea in the first place, nor does it explain why the flag was not acted upon swiftly. That is why I am saying moderation here is running around in circles - we seem to have completely lost the focus on whats actually important to the site.
    – Polygnome
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 13:06
  • 8
    Can I say what I thought of that answer when I saw it? Or as a non diamond user I'll get negative feedback because it'll be rude?...
    – Patrice
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 13:08
  • 2
    Well part of it is to due with this being meta, all policies including the be nice policy are much more relaxed because there's meant to be more open, honest, discussion. There are far more offensive things happening on the site to care about someone saying something is "total garbage". Commented May 20, 2018 at 13:11
  • 13
    Uncharitable tl;dr: "I see that the bitter culture war conflict that swept Stack Overflow for weeks is winding down but RARRR I am still angry so let's fight more!". Yes, Nick's post was hypocritical. Yes, it goes against the values of the Stack Overflow community (or at least the Meta-using section of it), and against straightforward utilitarianism, by arguing that we should hand-hold askers through their problems with no regard to the harm that the resulting low-quality artifacts will do to future searchers. Yes, it annoyed me, and 125 other people. But all this has already been said.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 13:11
  • 12
    The flag was marked disputed by a SO moderator. Decisions by Stack Overflow should never be taken as official SE, Inc. policy. We are our own people.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 13:15
  • 2
    @MarkAmery Maybe you are right in a way, because I am angry about both the blog post and much of the nonsense that has followed it.. duplode has already rolled back the offending words. How should I have handled this better? Custom flag to explain the rollback that had taken place?
    – Polygnome
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 13:17
  • 11
    @Polygnome I'm not sure you've actually handled it badly; it's labelled as an "Uncharitable" tl;dr for a reason. Maybe this thread will turn out to be useful, despite my cynicism. I'm just skeptical, because all these conversations so far have produced a lot of anger and confusion and bitterness and uncertainty and misunderstanding without even a single tiny moment that I've seen of anyone gaining new insight or a new understanding of each others' views, nor any actionable ideas being produced. I don't see much reason to expect the output of revisiting this post to be any different.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 13:21
  • 4
    @MikeMcCaughan He's an employee; there's no special symbol for them beyond the normal mod diamond. See his bio at twitter.com/fody.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 17:28
  • 5
    Mountain, meet molehill.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 0:54
  • 2
    @duplode On the contrary, I think the rollback was 100% appropriate. The edit hides the terrible answer by a site admin. This should be front and center. The whole "Be Nice" doesn't seem to apply to moderators or people with high rep. SO has an attitude problem and I don't think it's new users.
    – Jacob H
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 13:09
  • 3
    @JacobH Absolutely not. It is not appropriate to pour gasoline on the fire, no matter how strongly you feel like protesting. Don't disrupt the site to make a point. (On a more procedural note, if anyone wonders what the multiple comments mentioning "garbage" are talking about, the edit history is easily available as usual.)
    – duplode
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 13:20
  • 2
    Ah so even worse, an employee who sets a bad example and the rest of us need to clean up his mess, and also try to change the culture at the same time. What a task the volunteers on this site have!
    – Jacob H
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 13:35
  • 17
    @JacobH: Oh boo hoo. I could not care less about how he said it, and his statement was directed at my idea. The disconcerting part about his post is something no edit can change: that an SO employee has such an alien viewpoint of the behavior of the site he works for. That edit won't change the fact that he genuinely believes that helping people is more important than building a quality knowledgebase of information. Commented May 21, 2018 at 13:37
  • 7
    @JacobH "Why are there moderators if they need to be moderated by the general populace?" -- At some level, there should be moderation of moderators by the general populace, assuming that we leave out the alternative of despotic rule.
    – duplode
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 13:39

2 Answers 2

38

No, calling ideas total garbage is not a nice way of expressing you disagree with an idea. Stack Overflow moderators certainly don't think so.

Note that the post was edited by an employee to tone down the abrasive tone of the post! It was rolled back by a non-moderator, non-employee community member. This roll-back was ill-advised and another community member has rolled back the rollback shortly after you posted your question.

And that's what you could have done too, or edit the post. The flag was disputed because the post itself could have been salvaged by an edit. Had the moderator disagreed with the flag entirely, it'd have been declined.

Note: I was not the moderator that handled the flag. I'd have disputed it too, but would have reverted the post to Jaydles' version at the same time. I think the moderator that handled the flag simply forgot that last step.

14
  • 4
    Are there, or should there be, any consequences for "being rude" in an answer, as long as it can just be edited out? For example, if I call someone a rude name, but then someone else comes along and edits that out, do I escape consequences?
    – user773737
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 13:37
  • 5
    @Houseman: if there is a pattern of such behaviour, flag that for moderator attention and we'll certainly deal with that. Yes, there are consequences for continuing bad behaviour after being explicitly warned.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 13:46
  • 6
    @Martijn but how can we as users see this pattern if 'edit it if editable' is the prevailing opinion? If I see something rude and flag it as such, a mod may decline my flag because I am expected to edit it. Should I go through the user's list of contributions before flagging? Just trying to get the right expectation, as I have seen conflicting guidance around this.
    – Patrice
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 15:21
  • 5
    @Patrice: there is a wide gap between a meta discussion where someone disses an idea with strong language, and a post attacking people directly. Moderators are not going to delete an answer post just because the on topic contents are worded so strongly. A rude/offensive flag means: delete this post, ASAP!, don't use it if the post doesn't need deleting.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 17:26
  • 2
    @Martijn that's fair. However I would hope that someone who consistently disses other ideas with strong language would get some consequence eventually, and I would say that if we keep editing these away instead of flagging, there is a chance a repeat offender flies 'under the radar'
    – Patrice
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 17:52
  • 4
    @Patrice I think you underestimate the capacity of the Meta community to recognise and remember such repeat behaviour.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 18:29
  • 1
    @Martijn in meta, sure. On the main site there may be too much traffic and some users could pass by unnoticed....
    – Patrice
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 21:04
  • 2
    @Patrice: at which point the damage is limited. But again, please do trust our community, they are pretty good at spotting such behaviour.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 21:15
  • So what I'm taking from this post is, the moderators should be held in check by the normal users and not the other way around? Something seems off @MartijnPieters
    – Jacob H
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 13:10
  • 7
    @JacobH No, moderators should be held accountable by the community because they have been elected by that community. Moderators likewise keep the community in check. Just like the government in democracies writes laws and enforces them to keep the public in check, yet the public also keeps the government in check by voting out those who abuse their position and do not serve the public. We can't vote out moderators, but we can bring their actions to light here in Meta to cast a public spotlight on them. And company staff will often step in, too.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 13:38
  • @TylerH and if the company staff is the problem?
    – Jacob H
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 13:39
  • 10
    @JacobH Voice your opinion here, and if nothing changes and you still have a problem, find a new company whose website you enjoy. Or deal with it. The choice is yours!
    – TylerH
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 13:41
  • I have to say: this was a (very) crude response, not a rude one. It would have been rude if this had said that the person was utter garbage for offering the idea, calling an idea garbage is... unproductive. Editing it out was definitely all that was needed.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 10:04
  • @Gimby: absolutely, but crude language, even when not directed at a specific person, can still be taken as rude. Posts that consist only of crude language can and should be flagged as 'rude and offensive', because crude language is widely seen as offensive. And well-balanced posts with a snide remark aimed at the @%$@#% downvoters, especially [name] can be salvaged by editing out the rude personal attack.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 22, 2018 at 10:10
-1

The quoted text says "This idea is total garbage".

You have characterized this as "calling another users contribution "garbage" "

I disagree with that characterization. I know this is a fine distinction, but the "idea" is an abstract thing that (like a meme) exists independently of the person who stated it or repeated it.

And the user's contribution (surely) did not just consist of proposing or repeating that idea.

And even if it was, you should not equate the idea and the contribution. The user's contribution was to propose the idea. If the idea is "garbage" that doesn't mean that proposing the idea is garbage.

To my way of thinking, this is just robust debating.

An idea can be rubbish without the person who proposed it being an idiot. OK?

13
  • 21
    Even if I were to run with this, which I find difficult, we surely cannot ignore the fact that the answer was written on a discussion about a blog post in which the same organisation establishes that they will be taking a much firmer stance (to a fault, some say) against anything that could even be perceived as unwelcoming. It's wildly hypocritical at best. Commented May 21, 2018 at 14:14
  • 2
    Calling people or an organization hypocritical is definely not nice.
    – Stephen C
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 14:17
  • 8
    It's not name-calling. It's an objective, factual description of what has occurred. Commented May 21, 2018 at 14:21
  • 2
    And the difference between that and calling an idea "garbage" is ..... ? (Not that I agree with your proposition!)
    – Stephen C
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 14:23
  • 5
    This point of view is garbage. Commented May 21, 2018 at 14:30
  • 4
    @StephenC Calling an idea "garbage" is an opinion, and subjective. In contrast, when [thing] says that A is bad, then does A, that's the definition of hypocrisy; in this case, [thing] is Stack Overflow (as represented by its employees and moderators) and A is being unwelcoming.
    – Nic
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 14:33
  • 3
    @DavidEisenstat - So by your own logic, you are being not nice :-)
    – Stephen C
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 14:51
  • 7
    The fact that an 480k rep user thinks that using the word "garbage" to characterize anything is civil, respectful discourse is deeply troubling. Your distinction is imho meaningless. Even if i were to agree with you that an idea and a contribution are different things, I still strongly disagree that calling it "garbage" should be tolerated. There are many ways you can factually characterize an idea without resorting to calling it "garbage".
    – Polygnome
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 14:51
  • You know, this is not some "fine distinction" that's ephemeral or tangential to the real argument -- it's absolutely central to the main argument! In the linked post, we have the (evidently unassailable) statement that "Again, there is the conflation of downvoting the post with downvoting the person." So we the regulars insist that the newbies understand that we're not downvoting them and they must not take it personally, but then, when a regular has his idea called "garbage", oh no, that's not nice. Commented May 21, 2018 at 14:52
  • 4
    @NicHartley - Only if you assert that calling an idea garbage is not nice. Circular logic :-)
    – Stephen C
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 14:52
  • 2
    @StephenC ...How, exactly, is what I said circular logic? Being welcoming is a higher standard than simply not violating Be Nice. Not violating Be Nice requires... exactly that; being welcoming requires being actively friendly. Calling an idea garbage is unwelcoming; it's not violating the Be Nice policy.
    – Nic
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 14:58
  • 3
    @StephenC Only if you think that niceness is defined out of context, which is also a garbage point of view. Commented May 21, 2018 at 15:05
  • 11
    @StephenC: The difference between pointing out actual hypocrisy, and choosing to use the word "garbage" to describe someone's work, is vast. Commented May 21, 2018 at 16:36

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .