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I've been looking at the results of the latest developer survey showing Stack Overflow as a community of white

White or of European descent 74.2%; South Asian 11.5%; Hispanic or Latino/Latina 6.7%; East Asian 5.1%; Middle Eastern 4.1%; Black or of African descent 2.8%; Native American,Pacific Islander,or Indigenous Australian 0.8%

Here again we see evidence for problems with diversity and inclusion.

straight

Straight or heterosexual 93.2%; Bisexual or Queer 4.3%; Gay or Lesbian 2.4%; Asexual 1.9%

men

Female 6.9%; Male 92.9%; Non-binary, gender queer, or gender non-conforming 0.9%

although such a low percentage points to problems with inclusion in the tech industry in general and Stack Overflow in particular.

This data has been used outside the site as an evidence of toxic elitism and in my personal opinion, had significant impact on the discussion around Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming.

However there is another way of looking at the same data. Out of 101,592 qualified responses, 57,473 (56.57%), 59,765 (58.83%), 64,364 (63.36%) have been used for Race and Ethnicity, Sexual Orientation and Gender summary respectively. So it is possible that we are not really comfortable with questions about race:

White or of European descent 41.98%; South Asian 6.51%; Hispanic or Latino/Latina 3.79%; East Asian 2.89%; Middle Eastern 2.32%; Black or of African descent 1.58%; Native American,Pacific Islander,or Indigenous Australian 0.45%; Prefer not to answer 43.43%

and sexual orientation

Straight or heterosexual 54.83%; Bisexual or Queer 2.53%; Gay or Lesbian 1.41%; Asexual 1.12%; Prefer not to answer 41.17%

and at least somewhat uneasy about questions regarding gender

Female 4.37%; Male 58.86%; Non-binary, gender queer, or gender non-conforming 0.57%; Prefer not to answer 36.64%

and have healthy attitude to online privacy.

Without independent confirmation (like follow-up survey) extrapolating missing data to whole population is hardly justified. Furthermore geographical distribution of respondents, with over 23% from Asia and 2.8% from Africa (that's truly disheartening number, but likely reflecting wider systemic problems, much larger than SO community) suggests that at least ethnicity data is a bit more complex. It is also worth pointing out that to verify problems with [race and ethnicity] diversity and inclusion we should provide expected distribution, reflecting geographic distribution of respondents (naive projection, let's say on US census data, would suggest strong positive bias towards Asian population), in case there is no bias.

This of course just another narration, which frankly speaking reflects my own opinion that questions this highly intrusive (no matter if you refrained from answer or not, you leak sensitive personal information, especially in presence of additional data), but I believe it is worth discussing.

Please don't get me the wrong way - there is enough independent evidence for different inclusion problems in overall industry, but extrapolating US data to explain worldwide survey, might not be the best approach. At the same time, if we acknowledge inclusion issues, we might suspect there will be some effect on respondent willingness to answer, and additional caution when analyzing collected data, would be advised.

Code and data:


It is also worth noting, that independent of the actual underlying distribution, the current choice of representation can have unintended chilling effect on prospect users, especially those, who already feel vulnerable. Not welcoming is one thing, not welcoming bunch of self-identified white straight man, is well...

Of course without independent data it is just a hypothesis, but maybe one we should consider in the light of recent discussions.


Clarifications

  • There is no evidence that any data has been intentionally hidden. All numbers come from the survey summary, are publicly available, and clearly displayed. Furthermore anonymized data should be soon available for download, same as the results of the previous surveys.

    You are free to analyze data yourself, and make your own conclusions.

  • Chilling effect - Please don't read to much into this remark. I have never claimed that being self-identified, white, straight, male implies being unwelcoming.

    In fact presenting community as a group of self-identified R O G for any combination of R ∈ Race, O ∈ Orientation, G ∈ Gender can have negative effect on anyone, who does not identify with particular description, no matter how welcoming community is.

    I stress out self-identified, because unlike independent statements of facts, it might suggest that these properties are important part of the group identity.

  • Before you assume that specific political agenda led to this particular choice of data presentation, please acknowledge that the survey hasn't been designed as a proper social study, therefore possible insights are fairly limited.

    Subjectively speaking the survey has been designed with English speaking, North American respondents in mind, while majority of respondents (74.58%) came outside North America or countries where we reasonably assume English to be the first language (over 60% - Counting United States of America, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland - the main, primarily English speaking source of traffic. I intentionally omitted India, as although widely used, it seems to be the first language only for a small fraction of population. ). We should also acknowledge privacy and legal concerns.

    Finally, for my personal experience, there is significant difference in the data culture between social and cultural researchers and more business oriented data scientist, with former one considering missing data an additional source of information, while latter one going more with brute force drop / impute approach. I hope it won't offend any data scientists here.

  • According to both meta and blog, is the right to place to submit survey feedback. While there is no direct question here, I believe it still should be an acceptable post.

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    Speculations about whether the distributions in the "Prefer not to answer" parts are similar to or (to a statistically relevant degree) dissimilar from the answers that have been given will start in 3...2...1 .. (but seriously: You made an interesting point there, +1)
    – Marco13
    Commented May 6, 2018 at 0:04
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    Interestingly, there are ways to construct a study to reduce or eliminate this kind of response bias, but SO does not appear to have bothered with them (perhaps because it's harder to do with a computer than with a live interview). Regardless, I'm not clear on what the question is here.
    – Kevin
    Commented May 6, 2018 at 21:22
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    The ethnicity concept is a little strange for many people outside US. I don't have any well defined ethnicity, just like many of my friends or colleagues. When this concept isn't legally defined, people don't always try to decide what's their main origin. I chose "Prefer not to answer" because there wasn't any "I don't know" option. More globally many questions made me feel like I wasn't really the intended target as I wasn't American. Commented May 7, 2018 at 13:35
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    I replied "prefer not to answer" to all of those types of questions, because the information is completely irrelevant to my career as an engineer. Who I sleep with, what I have between my legs, and how much pigment my skin has all have no business being discussed while I am perusing StackOverflow. I was not satisfied with how skewed and manipulated the poll results seemed to be. You can't talk about equality and then purposefully give out bad data to support your social ideology.
    – ndugger
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 15:14
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    I suspect this years survey will include questions on the topic of "did you feel welcome here" with similar data outputs. Commented May 7, 2018 at 15:22
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    @SterlingArcher There was already a question like that, something like "Do you feel like part of the SO community" or something.
    – mega6382
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 15:46
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    Well, you just irritated a few of the Maori people of NZ: 'Native American, Pacific Islander and Indigenous Australian'.
    – Rich
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 2:45
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    As one of the not welcoming bunch of self-identified white straight man you mention I sincerely ask, what can I do to encourage others to use this site?
    – Dodge
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 6:02
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    @duplode: It seemed pretty clear to me that the chilling effect is on prospective new minority users who look at the way the site presents its demographics and behaviors and decide that a group that officially says it's very largely composed of unwelcoming straight white men does not need or want them around. In other words, the very fact that SO is making a big deal about how much of a problem the site has can itself create something very similar to the patterns they're already concerned about, simply because people take the fuss at face value. Commented May 8, 2018 at 7:48
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    [1/2] @NathanTuggy If that is the case, it would probably be better for that to be stated in the question in a more direct way. (Cf. for instance W.Dodge's comment above, which seems to point towards an unintended tangent.)
    – duplode
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 8:09
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    [2/2] @NathanTuggy On a non-procedural note, there is a relevant discussion to be had about whether surveying and publishing demographics has more or less of a "chilling effect" than declining to look at demographics altogether, and about whether giving more emphasis to the share of "prefer not to answer" responses would have made any difference with respect to that.
    – duplode
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 8:10
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    @W.Dodge My sincere apologies if I offended you. I thought my point is pretty clear, and doesn't imply anything more than I explicitly stated (not being native English speaker), but I posted a clarification. I hope you find it satisfying. Commented May 8, 2018 at 12:21
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    Closing this as "unclear what you are asking" makes no sense. It is disappointing that this must be pointed out a second time.
    – duplode
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 12:56
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    I honestly don't see a realistic connection between the main user-base and the "toxic elitism" - I hate everyone writing bad questions equally. I have never seen a question that got down- or close-voted simply because of the author's race/gender or sexual orientation (not that it usually comes up anyway). I've read April Wensel's article you've linked ... Wow, what a waste of my time. Example: "I felt frustrated that Joel had not mentioned the survey or taken any responsibility for how the culture of his site excludes women and others." What a weird conclusion ... Commented May 8, 2018 at 13:01
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    @Geekmann: It's a discussion prompt, pointing out some issues with the site's survey and related posts, and implicitly asking for critiques or further work. Commented May 8, 2018 at 20:08

2 Answers 2

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Before I start, forgive me. I'm going to mention a clearly political discussion in the post. I do so not to raise political issues, but because the reasoning presented in that discussion is directly applicable to the claims being levied against SO's community.


Using these statistics as evidence for racism and/or sexism is a non sequitur to begin with, and we should not entertain notions that these statistics are any proof of either.

I became aware of this logical fallacy because Thomas Sowell (himself not white) pointed it out in an interview some 40 years ago. Some relevant quotes:

  • What is amazing to me, is that this notion, that people would be evenly represented except for these institutional policies. That notion has such momentum behind it, without a spec of evidence being asked or presented.

  • There's a whole subindustry studying the demographic composition of television audiences simply because they found that the people who watch NFL Monday Night Football are not the same people who watch Meet the Press or MacNeil/Lehrer. ... They find there very substantial differences even in things that are totally within the control of the individual.

  • Buckley: You would dismiss as thoughtless any complaint against a society that had only one woman in the Senate or only 11% blacks in Congress...

    Sowell: I wouldn't dismiss it. I would simply say if there is evidence that you have, let us see that evidence. What I think is really tragic is that assertions have been made not only without evidence being offered but without anyone even asking for evidence. As if these are self evidence truths that have been brought down from the mountainside.

    Buckley: So the thing to do is to look for noninvidious explanations.

    Sowell: No, the thing to do is to look for whatever seems to be the most reasonable explanation in the circumstance, and I'm saying that people who have made the case the other way, or who have acted as if they made the case, typically have not felt the necessity to bring evidence.

So what are reasonable conclusions given the evidence we have? We have a difference in statistics. As the question points out, the stats as presented elsewhere conveniently leave out non-respondants, but let's assume that data without it is still representative. We also know that a significant portion of users do not make their race, gender, or other personal information readily available. We have a fairly strongly enforced Be Nice policy that demands respect for each user. This evidence does not immediately suggest that racism and sexism are major forces in our community. While of course these attitudes do exist in some measure worldwide and in every community, it is not reasonable to immediately jump to them as an explanation when most users can't even tie those qualities to a given account. In light of how hard our community works to treat people fairly and with respect, we should not entertain accusations of unfair treatment without sufficient evidence.

As long as we are courteous, sincere, and helpful to all comers who reciprocate those values, we have nothing to apologize for. We should not base our community policy on trying to make people who want nothing to do with Stack Overflow's model like us. We should base our community policy and norms on treating people decently (which we have already done for as long as I have been a member) and on whether we are successful at creating a knowledge repository.

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    While this is a well-written post that could have been a good fit elsewhere, I don't think it actually attempts to answer the present question.
    – duplode
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 15:50
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    @duplode I understand how this could be seen as veering off on a tangent. However, I disagree. The question is fundamentally about proper interpretation of the survey data, and that's what this answer addresses as well. It merely takes a step further back than the question does and challenges a deeper assumption. I basically end up making the point that the discrepancy in the question doesn't even matter. I touch on it briefly; I'll think about if I can make it more obvious.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 16:24
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    "We should not base our community policy on trying to make people who want nothing to do with Stack Overflow's model like us." <- this.
    – JDB
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 19:33
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    @EqualityInTech close... Perhaps "We should not base our community policy on catering evenly to all sectors of people, even if they want nothing to do with Stack Overflow's model." That way it sounds less like "all minorities ask terrible questions" and more like "let's not scrape the bottom of the barrel for so-called diversity reasons."
    – NH.
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 19:47
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    @NH. I was actually referring to the author of that awful "Suffering on SO" blog post. lol. I really do not believe that she has SO's best interests in mind, and she seems very misguided with her approach to her own site. I'll try to clean that up in a little while, too. Thanks.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 19:58
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    @NH. - Yes... I extracted that sentence from the context, but still had the context in mind. Sometimes the best you can do is create an environment that judges based only on the criteria that really matter to your community (in our case, content quality... which is inherently exclusionary act), then let the broader community decide whether or not they want to participate. Recruiting across arbitrary social "boundaries" is not, in and of itself, an interesting or useful exercise. Asking "why" is fine, but changing policies before you get the answers is premature optimization at its worst.
    – JDB
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 20:22
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    We want to weed out criteria that unintentionally exclude potential participants, but we must first establish if those criteria exist and what they are. Using participation rates to "prove" that such criteria exist (without naming them) is a misapplication of statistics. Rushing in with a solution before you understand the problem is dangerous: youtube.com/watch?v=-jO1EOhGkY0&t=3m27s
    – JDB
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 20:35
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    @jpmc26 (1) "we should not entertain accusations of unfair treatment without sufficient evidence" -- It must be said, once more, that the blog post does not make such an accusation. Whatever other flaws the post might have, this isn't one of them, and focusing on it is a waste of energy. (2) "[...] her approach to her own site" -- April Wensel does not own askquestions.tech, the site you mention; she is just helping to promote it. This misstatement has been steadily and uncritically reiterated on Meta for about a month now.
    – duplode
    Commented May 9, 2018 at 4:28
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    @NH. "We should not base our community policy on catering evenly to all sectors of people, even if they want nothing to do with Stack Overflow's model." -- As someone who is cautiously supportive of the welcomingness drive that seems to be taking shape, I actually like this formulation. It is a good reminder of which lines shouldn't be crossed. (I intend to post a Meta [discussion] related to this matter, though I never seem to manage to sit down and actually write it.)
    – duplode
    Commented May 9, 2018 at 4:37
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    @duplode "It must be said, once more, that the blog post does not make such an accusation." If you honestly believe that, then I think you're simply unaware of the current turmoil surrounding issues of racism and sexism. Stating that someone has "unconscious bias" or has "privilege" is absolutely 100% an accusation of racism or sexism. The idea is that the prejudice is so deeply ingrained in our psyche that it subtly underlies everything you say or do. It's basically an attempt to legitimize the accusation of prejudice for anything, to further the victimhood narrative.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 16, 2019 at 0:46
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    @duplode That is sad because the victimhood narrative perpetuates prejudice. Instead of encouraging people to push through whatever difficulties they face (prejudice or otherwise), it asserts that they are doomed to fail no matter what they do. Whatever racism or sexism remains in our society will not be overcome by conflict or bureaucratic fiat. Those only generate resentment on both sides, and in practice, they harm the disadvantaged by granting them responsibilities they are ill equipped for. It will only be overcome by individuals doing good and using that to make inroads into communities.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 16, 2019 at 1:28
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    @duplode Also, are you now agreeing that the welcoming blog post asserts that our community is fundamentally racist and sexist? Just not entirely clear on if you're conceding that point or not. It would seem so, if you believe that such attitudes "seep all over" society. Unless your society is not Western society and you don't believe that's the case in Western culture?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 16, 2019 at 1:34
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    @jpmc26 [1/2] "The victimhood narrative" often ends up being, in effect, a strawman. Concerns with it can help with shifting focus towards individuals to the exclusion of systemic issues that are an integral part of what should be accounted for while grappling with racism and sexism. Recognising systemic bias implies neither abstaining from pushing on a personal level through negative bias, nor blaming people on a personal level for positive bias granted to them systemically. Those two misjudgments are sides of the same coin, and reflect a misframing of the whole matter.
    – duplode
    Commented Mar 16, 2019 at 2:14
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    @duplode You can't have it both ways. You can't say, "The community is completely racist and sexism all the time, and we have to revamp the entire system to fix that because the victims are incapable of doing anything about it or in response to it," and then say, "I'm not accusing anyone of racism and sexism." That is a contradiction. That you're not accusing any individual of prejudice makes no difference; you're accusing everyone of engaging in it constantly in everything they say or do. That's even worse, and it's not a misframing.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 16, 2019 at 16:57
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    @jpmc26 "You can't say, 'The community is completely racist and sexism all the time, and we have to revamp the entire system to fix that because the victims are incapable of doing anything about it or in response to it' [...]" -- It is not clear who you are attributing this view to; for one, I'm certainly not claiming that here. I can't help but get the impression that you are hearing what you want to hear, or at least what you expect to hear, and in that case I'm not sure this discussion will be productive.
    – duplode
    Commented Mar 16, 2019 at 16:58
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What I do not understand is why Stack Overflow feels compelled to do this exercise. It is a very good QnA site. Unquestionably best. De-facto place to go when you have a programming question. Golden source of truth.

Why does it need to become a Github and go out of it's way to engage in all this? Why can't it remain a best QnA site around? Luckily, we are all nicknames behind the screen. There is no gender or race or ethnicity here, unless people feel compelled to share it - but they should not be compelled! Why can't nicknames here be judged on the merits of their answers (and questions!), and not on their social, economic or any other status?

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