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The Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming blog post says:

Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.

There have been accusations of elitism against SO since time immemorial. Basically, so long as there have been standards, there have been accusations of elitism. That is after all what standards are for.

But these accusations against specific groups of people are new. And of a very different caliber.

Hostility against newbies is borne of terrible newbie questions. This is a problem, not of the community, but of Stack Exchange and their unwillingness to prevent low-quality questions from entering the system. And their willingness to side with askers of low-quality questions over those who provide high-quality answers. SE forces us to constantly interact with a stream of garbage; that will inevitably create hostility.

Stop the stream of garbage at its source, and the problem disappears. The community need change nothing; only SE needs to be changed.

By contrast, hostility towards "women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups" is a completely different problem. This is a problem borne of people in the community, and it is best solved at the community level. Such hostility appears in very different ways.

People generally don't go around downvoting a post because they think a woman wrote it. Such hostility is primarily expressed through comments that aren't reasonably gender-neutral or that use various words and/or phrasing that might be offensive or off-putting to certain groups of people.

Even if we did consider "hostility against newbies" to be a problem of the community rather than of SE (or the newbies themselves; let's not forget about them), that doesn't justify putting these two very different problems in the same post. Solutions for the anti-newbie problem are going to be very different from the solutions to the other problem.

All the gender-neutral writing in the world won't make you respect somebody who refuses to read documentation. Anti-bias training will not in any way make you ignore the 10,000th iteration of "hey, I don't know how linking works." And so on.

Indeed, merging these two cases brings with it the implication that SE thinks that "women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups" are responsible for a lot of the garbage questions that routinely attract the ire of the populace. Is that an implication that SE wants to make?

Different problems which require different approaches and different solutions should not be construed to be the same problem.

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    All the practical measures discussed in the blog post (apart from the vague:"reviewing site copy for inclusive language") are indeed aimed at all the newbies, not at any particular protected class. This is another "all questions are welcome" campain, with a dose of political correctness bolted on. And this little extra makes it particularly unfortunate.
    – user3458
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 7:38
  • 402
    It is the 2000s. Everyone loves to cry out loud about how hurt and discriminated they are, because that yields attention. If a newbie ask a terrible newbie question and it gets short down, then of course it's because she's a woman and not because she asked a terrible question. Ignoring that the people who shot down the question likely had no way to tell the poster's gender in the first place, even less so the color of their skin. This smells like the same kind of moral panic we saw in this years SO survey, where we were given 5 alternatives to the question "what is your gender".
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 7:53
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    I could only draw one conclusion from this statement - those groups are more likely to ask "low quality" questions. Since one cannot see gender and other personal information - why else can they feel unwelcome? Only based on quality of content they post. So this statement itself feels somewhat discriminative to me.
    – Evk
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:40
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    I, too, am finding it hard to see what is substantially new about this discussion (which we've had for nine years, many of us contributing loads of ideas how to address the tone problem, with little reaction from the powers that be) other than that it is now supercharged with intersectional moral imperatives that, from the outside, look a bit haphazardly applied... and I have to ask: are they really pertinent to the discussion, and likely to be productive? Loads of people of all colours, genders, shapes and sizes suffer from SO's rough culture; we've known this for a long time.
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:44
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    Anyway... so now there is a will to act, so rather than get lost in this discussion with all its toxic potential, we should focus on the merits of what will be brought forward in terms of changes IMO. And contemplate the bigger question of whether (attempts to make the tone on SO less rough notwithstanding) a place that would really work for newbies shouldn't be implemented in the form of a new product, rather than by bolting it onto SO proper which doesn't really have mentoring and handholding (which, yes, many of us need or have needed at some point in our lives) as its mission.
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:44
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    ... and whatever it is that you will be doing, team, please don't just start mass-deleting anything that might be perceived rude by someone willy nilly, like Facebook and Twitter do. While moderation has always been non-accountable (and rightly so), it's always been counter-balanced by an incredible amount of transparency and step-by-step traceability - the thing that Stack Overflow has always been getting right. If people have to be afraid their contributions will be erased unless they triple-check their tone is treading on eggshells, that's going to have a massive chilling effect.
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 9:02
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    I feel like I should add my personal experience. I am a Brown Male who doesn't speak English as a first language. I have been here for 3.5 years now. I have never experienced any hostility against me. And when I was a newbie, I asked terrible questions and naturally the response was negative too (Not Hostile, Negative). I understand it was my questions being DV'd, not my background. With that said, Can I say that I find that Lady's attitude towards us POC (Making us like some victims) very offensive and a manifestation of White Messiah complex?
    – NSNoob
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:53
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    And we are not some marginalised groups either, everyone in the community knows that Non-White folks make up a large portion (If not half) of the programming community. Programming is a trade, not a Political Diet. Anyone who has the right aptitude for the trade can be one of the Programming community but why do we have to ignore the fact that its all about inclination+talent, It has nothing to do with the Gender or Color of the people. I am disappointed that SO is getting blackmailed by such people who believe in such nonsense and take offence over imaginary problems.
    – NSNoob
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:57
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    I thought this site's mantra was "Ask questions, get answers, no distractions". Did something happen that I'm not aware of?!
    – Eric Aya
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:02
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    Thanks for this question. I saw the blog post and thought "WTF???". When I see a question on SO, I only care about its content, if it's helpful to me or the community. I couldn't care less about OP's gender or skin color. And, 99% of the time, I simply cannot know anyway. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:26
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    You're making the common mistake of conflating new (either to SO, or to programming in general) people with people that ask bad questions. Lots of new people ask good questions, lots of people that aren't new ask bad questions. The new people that ask good questions have a great experience of the site. The people, new and old, that ask bad questions, think the site is a bad site.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:40
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    That blog post was simply awful...it truly was. I feel ashamed to have helped build this community with that blog post.
    – JonH
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 14:09
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    @TylerH: "referring to questions as garbage is pretty rude." Then what is the new euphemism you want us to use? We're not allowed to call them "crap" or "garbage". But the classification definitely exist. So what can we call them? Directness in communication is superior to euphemistic clap-trap; it cuts out pointless noise and calls things as they are. Garbage is something you don't want in your house. Garbage questions are those we do not want on the site. The only thing adding a euphemism will do is inhibit our ability to communicate effectively. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:39
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    Seriously, StackOverflow is probably among the most meritocratic communities on the planet at the moment. For anyone to point here with accusatory tones of systemic racial or gender bias they would have to be entirely out of their mind or completely out of touch with reality.
    – J...
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:09
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    "of color"??? Dammit, how do people even manage to bring their skin color up in their posts on SE? And why? That's a site to discuss programming, how and why would you talk about people's skin color here? Also, we all are "of color". Unless ghosts are also using SE.
    – ForceBru
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 20:35

26 Answers 26

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When I read the blogpost my first thought was like “Is this still a programming site or a social justice movement?” Honestly, I can't see a negative link between bad behavior and the OP being a woman, “of color” (this is a truly ridiculous label btw.) etc. In fact, when I came over a question posted by a woman, I felt that the community paid extra attention to act inclusively and effectively help the OP, so a complete opposite to the statements in the blog post. On the other hand, I didn't do a proper research on this topic; however, the blog post speaks about feelings anyway.

From my perspective, the fact is that the amount of questions worth answering by an expert user like myself is declining (or lost in a stream of poor questions). I have been a frequent user of SO since 2010, and I can compare my workflow on the site back then and now.

Before reaching the first one million questions, my workflow was like:

  1. Pick a question from the feed
  2. Upvote
  3. Answer

Nowadays it's rather like:

  1. Pick a question from the feed
  2. Downvote
  3. Cast a close vote

I believe that SO (SE in general) has a deep problem with quality of questions and a lack of effective education of new users. I think that SE should consider the following changes:

  1. Implement a better new user experience for asking their first question(s) — I believe that the proposal in the blog post is a very good start
  2. Consider, rather than experimenting with documentation, introducing tutorials that newbies could be pointed to, with a lightweight Q&A facility for asking newbie questions that are otherwise not a fit for SO (and make pointing to these tutorials legitimate in SO)
  3. If a new user gets several questions downvoted or closed, take them back to the new user UI
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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 6, 2018 at 22:53
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    "[...] the community paid extra attention to act inclusively and effectively help the OP [...]". If that was done based on gender, it was sexist.
    – canon
    Commented Sep 19, 2018 at 19:43
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    Imagine a low-quality question by a woman. If you answer it in your usual tone (pointing out its low quality) you are labelled sexist because you are mean to a woman (not because of her gender, but this does not bother the labelers). If you act nicer, you are labelled sexist because you behave differently with a woman. You can't win.
    – András
    Commented Jan 8, 2019 at 16:07
277

This kind of hits what I was thinking. There is a big problem with this blogpost.

The general consensus is quite okay with me, it should be more welcoming. But making this a case of discrimination in any kind (except if you count newbie discrimination) is totally baffling.

What really bothers me is the mentality

We know because they tell us

That mixes so many things into one pot. Just because I tell you someone is hostile against me because I am non-white-male, does not mean that it is the reason. It may just be that my question was "how can I open Word?".

Nowadays there is a trend (not saying that this is general, but it is gaining a bit of traction) for people to victimize themselves. And this is not something that should be generally tolerated. So mixing newbie hostility with minority suppression is really dangerous here.

These topics should be split and if there really is a problem with discrimination, it HAS TO BE tackled. But not with the same approach we have to tackle the newbie problem.

Newbie hate is trained because of low quality. Discrimination is not trained that way, it is more a way of thinking (and maybe trained over years of living in specific environments, but this is hard to fix by an online community).

The biggest (to my mind) problem with race/nationality that we have is the language barrier and fixing this will not be easy. But the rest of the claims of discrimination are hardly valid, without statistical data. A dog is not a wolf, even if I think it is, but I may think so because it looked similar and snarled at me.

The ideas to improve the newbie friendliness are good and I hope they really help to improve newbie posts and reduce the hostility.

But just putting everything into one bucket might be the biggest discrimination of all.

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    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 6, 2018 at 22:54
238

I've been reading these discussions about rudeness, being welcoming (or not) and possible discrimination for some time now, without voicing my opinion. The point has come where I have to have my say:

My involvement with programming goes back 45 years, although I haven't been actively involved throughout the entire period. I've never seen any reason to hide who or what I am - my on-line presence since the days of CompuServe has been my full name. I've lost count of how often I've been addressed as "sir" or "Mr"; it doesn't matter because objectively I realize the person - not from my culture - is trying to be respectful and show gratitude for my assistance.

On Stack Overflow I encounter this less frequently because excessive text ("politenesses") is discouraged. Those who complain about there being too little "politeness", should keep in mind that remaining objective and factual will actually reduce the danger of offending others.

I attend technical conferences and get-togethers where I enjoy not having to stand in line to use "the facilities". If I don't care for a discussion, I'll leave - but usually because it bores me, not because of the tone other participants are using. If content is central to one's interests, then clarity is key, not the cultural connotation of the words used to achieve it.

As far as I'm concerned, that's also the standard an on-line service for supporting developers should strive for. Trying to achieve "political correctness" in communication has little point - what's correct today is often not acceptable a short time later.

As someone who grew up during the original activist period (anti-racism, feminism, etc.) of the 60's and 70's I've experienced numerous "politically correct" ways to label people, always, supposedly at the "group's" behest (but it was never clear why any particular group should dictate that for the whole). And since these are labels, each has successively fallen into disfavor and been replaced by another label a few years later. It seems there's no acceptable objective way to describe how someone looks (not only skin color), anymore, without opening oneself to accusations of discrimination or racism.

How ridiculous is that? Maybe we need to resort to RGB...

As to making all feel welcome on the site: "You can't please all the people all the time". Is this "elitist"? It may look that way to people who haven't acquired the experience or don't have the background expected by the community here. But does it mean standards should be lowered?

We don't expect small children to attend university courses. Does this mean children are being discriminated against because they can't attend university? No - society realizes children need a basic education and sufficient background before attempting more complex material.

Nor are professionals in non-educational careers expected to teach primary school. Not every venue can cater to all people; not all people have the necessary talents to communicate effectively at a technical level with people lacking a basic background in a topic.

By all means, if the owners of Stack Exchange want to attract more accounts and grow, they should open a "training" site. And those who enjoy tutoring and doing others' work for them should go there. Helping others learn is a good way to gain more in-depth knowledge about a new subject - I remember those days.

But lower the standards of the existing developer resource because it's perceived to be "elitist"? No.

Are newbies discriminated against, just because they're new?

I spend a portion of time in most of the review queues, seeing the bad questions and seeing how others on SO respond, in comments. On the whole, I see more rudeness and inconsiderate behavior from people asking questions than from those who try to help. I'm not saying there isn't the occasional snide remark (which gets flagged). But the level of expectation for spoon-feeding from inexperienced people is... remarkable. And frustrating. It's such a joy to see the exceptions: those who respond to comments and try - they get helped. Even if the question according to the site rules must be closed - they often get what they need through comments.

I don't see any discrimination against newbies - nor anyone else, for that matter. If people want to participate in a professional venue, they have to learn to be professional. Bringing down the standard won't help them or anyone else, in the long run.

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    Best post so far, I think it merges all of the previous threads, adds personal experiences and common sense.
    – J. Martin
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 16:54
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    Perfect, sums up what I was trying to say last night when I suggested a Stack Overflow Academy, you can't mix the pipelines of education too much and not expect perceived "elitism" from the newbies. You have answered a number of my Word questions here, and over on the word forum, I probably inferred the fact that you were female from your name, but all that ever mattered was that you were right, I learnt a lot from you about Word, mainly from questions I didn't post and I showed my appreciation through upvotes.
    – user1641172
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 17:59
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    This is a fantastic post, I wish I could write something as articulate. Couldn’t agree more with the sentiments in this post, thank you for sharing.
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:10
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    @YvetteColomb no it's not at all, you are talking to systems people who understand the wider effect of subtle changes as a result of tens of thousands of hours of experience, the fact that people with 3 hours of experience feel that they are entitled to waste these people's time is downright insulting to our community.
    – user1641172
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:45
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    @Yvette: No where do I refer to the blog post - I specifically state at the beginning that I'm reacting to all the recent (and not so recent) discussions/complaints about "discrimination". But, indeed, I have limited sympathy for the situations I see described here. When I was twenty I left everything I knew, went to a country where I didn't know the language, immersed myself in the culture and adapted. I learned yet another language well enough to write technical books in it... Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:47
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    No one is forcing anyone to join or participate on Stack Overflow. It's their choice. I don't understand whiners who say "You have to accomodate me because I don't feel comfortable here." It's not as if this were the only place people can ask questions. But since it has a reputation as a good place to ask questions and get answers, some people apparently think they should have a right to get answers, here too, without putting in the effort required to enable anyone to provide them with an effective answer. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:55
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    I like helping people, or I wouldn't have been here, on MSDN, on the newsgroups or on CompuServe. But I don't like people who post "I want to do this", not clearly stated, someone takes the time to answer only to learn, "No, this isn't what I really wanted." And it goes on, and on, and on, and on. "Help vampires" is a term I've seen used. Those who answer questions here have a right to feel comfortable, too. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:58
  • 14
    @YvetteColomb that's what you are asking; is for highly trained professionals to interact for free on a level with people who have almost no clue about their profession and what they are asking without them "appearing" to be curt, it's crazy
    – user1641172
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:08
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    @Yvette a lot of these new users will see ANYTHING as rude or hostile though. I am all for changing our tone. But that won't stop the people who think downvoting is a personal offense, or that duplicate closure shouldn't happen. We can improve for sure. But now it feels like caving in, to criticism that isn't really warranted (they come to a heavily moderated site, and then see moderation as a personal offense. Seems disingenuous)
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:08
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    @YvetteColomb I don't dismiss other people. But if they want to participate in a professional venue they need to be professional. At least to the point where they take a moment to learn the "house rules" and not demand something be given to them. Life isn't easy. Life isn't fair. The best thing we can have is a few close friends and colleagues we can trust and give mutual support. But the world (and I mean NATURE) isn't safe and soft and cuddly - and none of us can make it that way no matter how hard we try with laws, etc. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:08
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    @NickDewitt curt doesn't cover it - the comments I'm referring to are downright appalling. I think there could be misunderstanding in what I'm referring to as rude and pile on and what people are thinking I'm referring to. Name calling, etc... I'm getting tired now. If you need more examples I will go dig them out later.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:13
  • 5
    @Patrice yes that's true. People usually don't take criticism well and downvotes are perceived as such, we can't do anything about that, but we can take care of the rudeness on our end. That what flags are for. If people are rude - flag it, new or old. There's no excuse to pile on rude comments, no matter who started it.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:14
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    This reflects to a very large extent what the best of the network - SO, or otherwise should be. And reflects what many people feel. Thank you for saying this! Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 22:40
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    This essentially boils down to, "Stack Overflow expects participants, both askers and answerers, to act maturely." Which I wholeheartedly agree with, but I lament the reality that human nature means not very many people are like that.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 4:24
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    @YvetteColomb ok, so I have read quite a lot of them did you actually read them or just find 4000 "rude comments" posted over 90 days? It would help to know the total comments posted in that period so we could get some context, also a lot of the rude comments seemed to be from new users themselves in response to being strictly moderated when they haven't followed any rules.
    – user1641172
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:16
166

I'm really surprised to see this statement on this blogpost. I'm trying hard to see the relation between how someone acts to a post, and the gender/color/group of the OP.

I've been here since 2013, and I don't remember seeing a question being closed because of OP's gender or color. Even if someone goes through the whole "garbage" posts in the system, I'm sure he can't conclude what type of people are responsible for these posts.

putting these two very different problems in the same post

I'm not sure the second one is even a problem. Please, if someone thinks otherwise, let me know why, maybe I'm not seeing or looking in the right places.


Note: I personally find the term "people of color" very unacceptable, regardless of any context. And after Googling the phrase, I see that I'm not alone. Please consider editing this ASAP, and post an official apology.

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    You do not understand the relation with gender/color/group if you do not have the "glasses" of cultural marxism
    – Boiethios
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:12
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    @E_net4 A completely unsubstantiated and shoehorned claim that has nothing to do with the rest of the post. This is indeed extremely alarming I fear SO is going to be politicized and ruined. \@Maroun This was probably caused by interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2838/…
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:12
  • 1
    @Oleg I deleted the comment because maybe I misunderstood the answer here, and as I predicted afterwards, I feared that I'd be misinterpreted. I just meant to say that all recent discussing emerged as a consequence of these claims, not to position myself in the argument. Thanks for that link!
    – E_net4
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:34
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    @Oleg Interesting. So they created an entirely opinion-based site, experienced the same problems that regular discussion forums have, and decided that the entire network "needs to change"?
    – user247702
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:52
  • 1
    Oh, there is too much rudeness with very many newbies: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/309018/545127
    – Raedwald
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 9:21
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    @Boiethios "Cultural marxism" is not really a thing. It is a political bogeyman.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:46
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    @duplode I don't think so. During my studies of philosophy, I studied the marxism (from Kabbalah to Marx, following the inheritance of ideas), and I can say that the cultural marxism is a real thing. I'm speaking about the Frankfurt school, the fight against the "phallogocentrisme" (sorry, I do not know this word in English), etc.; in short, the movement that transferred the fight from classes to "minorities" against the political bogeyman "white male". But hey, SO is not the right place to speak about this. I like this site because it is about programming and (but is it still true?) apolitic.
    – Boiethios
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:55
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    @Boiethios Part of my point is that the people who make Frankfurtian critiques of culture are not the same ones (and don't have the same stances as the ones) that write about phallagocentrisme, nor, for that matter, the ones who read writings about phallagocentrisme and then go on to make actionable political programs out of them, etc.; and that it isn't illuminating to put them all under a single catch-all label. But I agree this is not the right place to carry out this discussion.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:31
  • 2
    @duplode Sure, they are not the same school of though, but you can group them under one convenient term, as the offspring of marxism. But that's a semantic discussion (i.e. not really useful) from there.
    – Boiethios
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:39
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    @MarkWhite: This answer in two places clarifies that it's not just talking about blatant "oh so you're black, close" type bias, but about any relationship at all. Especially the idea of someone going through all trashed posts and being unable to tell any pattern based on sex or color or religion or whatever would rule out most if not all reasonable definitions of discrimination. After all, if there's not even a statistical way to tell that there was discrimination, was there really any at all? Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 21:03
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    @MarkWhite: What you've said is perfectly reasonable. But we still need something. Because without firm facts, all we have are the words of some people. And while I'm sympathetic to the cause, I cannot in good conscience agree to any changes to the site without having something more than people's word about subjective impressions. I would really like to see a detailed explanation about how this bias works, with some sort of evidence behind it. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 21:28
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    @NicolBolas use Google Scholar to find any review on modern racism, ambivalent sexism, discrimination, etc. in the social psychological literature. I don’t have the time to put together a cogent case for why discrimination still exists; that’s something I would teach across an entire semester. That’s something that many have written books on. It’s like 1/4th of social psychology. It’s massively saddening to hear this type of widespread negative reaction on SO—I don’t have time to enlighten everyone. Just read and take what gender and racial minorities say seriously.
    – Mark White
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 21:35
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    @MarkWhite: That discrimination exists in society is not the question. The question is whether discrimination exists on this site. The only "literature" that is relevant to that question are examinations of this site. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 21:39
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    @MarkWhite The scholarship of those articles is not certain. Some scholars are starting to call attention to it as a problem: youtu.be/jIOX1hVRE8Y, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoethnography. Just because people write about it and publish it doesn't mean it's accurate or representative of the general population.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 6:41
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    @MarkWhite It’s massively saddening to see a scientist say "Just read and take what gender and racial minorities say seriously" do you care about better understanding the world or about people's feelings? Just because people feel they were discriminated doesn't mean that they were.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:45
120

This is how social justice advocates' logic works. On one hand they try to claim that they think everybody are equal, on the other they claim that "marginalized groups" can't succeed without getting help from white males.

If you read carefully the blog post doesn't actually blame SO users for anything:

Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. (emphasis mine)

Newer coders struggling on SO is understandable and trying to address it is desirable but conflating women and people of color with them??? That's misogynistic and racist.

Later the blog continues along the same lines:

It was hard to accept some of the (valid) criticism, especially the idea that women and people of color felt particularly unwelcome. There’s a weird paradox with bias. Those of us who have privilege, but care deeply about reducing bias should be uniquely positioned to help, but we struggle the hardest to recognize that we are (unintentionally) biased ourselves.²

Still the blog doesn't say that women and people of color are treated differently according to it the problem is with them; they are feeling unwelcome and need white males to solve their problems.

Social justice advocates are also not capable of understanding that not everybody are like them. I took those implicit bias tests and according to them I don't have any implicit biases. I don't care about your race, gender, religion, nationality and sexual orientation. This is a programming Q&A please keep your politics out of it (addressed to SO employees) and don't ruin it.

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    @halfer That's not an insult, you perceiving it as hostility and ignoring the rest of my post is unfortunate.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 10:08
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    @Paul: it's an acronym for "social justice warrior", often used as an insult on US-based far-right and conservative discussion forums. It tends to be used as a sweeping generalisation for anyone who leftist or progressive. I observe the phrase is primarily used in a belittling or scornful manner these days.
    – halfer
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 10:09
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    And often used as not an insult, but merely an observation, in the real world
    – Clive
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 10:10
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    @Clive: I understand that some folks believe that. But, "warrior" is evidently sardonic, and social justice advocates don't normally use this term to refer to their movement(s). I have seen it self-applied in an ironic fashion, but not otherwise. So, long story short: people can insist on using it if they wish, but they are asking not to be taken seriously if they do. It's up to them.
    – halfer
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 10:18
  • 17
    @halfer See youtube.com/watch?v=S9ieG0vl2S0 for a bunch of people who proudly and seriously call themselves SJWs. I really don't think this is an insult, if it offends you I'm willing to change it to "Social justice advocates" or " "progressive" "(with quotes) or "regressive left". Your choice.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 10:28
  • 16
    it's an acronym for "social justice warrior", often used as an insult on US-based far-right and conservative discussion forums yes but not exclusively. I interact with lots of liberal lefties who use the term as a pejorative for a very specific strain of progressive thinking. I agree it's not terribly helpful in this discussion, though.
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 10:34
  • 46
    @halfer "it's an acronym for "social justice warrior", often used as an insult on US-based far-right and conservative discussion forums" - indeed, but why does that make the term objectionable? That it is mostly used by people you disagree with does not prevent it from being a useful term. To reflect this argument in an ideological mirror: the term "racist" is "often used as an insult" by people on the left (frequently towards people with whom I, as a conservative, agree); should I therefore object to usage of the word on principle, even if it is apt it is in the particular circumstances?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:42
  • 20
    We're not going to entertain any discussion that ascribes what we feel is a problem conforming to human decency to politics. It's not that we don't want to hear you, it's that we're simply going to be too far apart for anything constructive to come of it.
    – user50049
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:23
  • 25
    @TimPost I hope you will understand that it is political before you make too much changes, cause too much irreparable damage, divide the community and make a huge part of it to leave.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 14:30
  • 11
    "Social justice advocates are also not capable of understanding that not everybody are like them." Looks like a sweeping, negative generalization, of the kind you say you are against, to me. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 1:01
  • 15
    they are feeling unwelcome and need white males to solve their problems what the deuce? All over, another completely dismissive post. It's these types of opinions and the community support it receives that leaves people feeling unwelcome and honestly makes me feel ill with frustration. @TimPost I don't know what the site is going to do, but you cannot inherently implant the digest of being marginalised to people who never have been. It's this type of supported intolerance that is causing this issue. This world seems to think quality and compassion are mutually exclusive.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:37
  • 11
    @YvetteColomb Wow! That's what the blog post says not me... can't believe I voted for you.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:12
  • 18
    @Oleg your digest of the blog is a little off to say the least. You clearly cannot see that. As for voting for me. You voted that I am impartial and act in the interest of the community as an exception handler, not that I agree with you. Wouldn't you prefer that I'm frank with you? You may learn something. And I'm not trying to be facetious, I actually have these secret hopes posting on here will help people break through these blind spots. And yes, I have faults too, we all do.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:56
  • 28
    @YvetteColomb Has it occurred to you that making an unsubstantiated accusation that a large portion of SO's current membership is racist and misogynist is itself unwelcoming? The idea that SO might be racist kind of fails the smell test to begin with, since you can't see the other person's race. So making such a claim without evidence clearly shows that the person making it is biased toward using prejudice as an explanation. This kind of bias (assuming racism or prejudice can explain negative outcomes) is very common in the modern Western world. That's what this answer is pointing out.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 6:53
  • 9
    Don't know why my comment was removed, it was an important one so I'm reposting it. My digest of the blog post directly follows from the quotes I provided, the mention of "privilege" makes it clear. The author argues from a humanitarian racist position (albeit a mild one) if you like @YvetteColomb can't see that you're probably not familiar with it.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 7:43
101

That's just another case of SO trying to blame the community, this time with other words. The site is solely run by the community, so the headline alone is a accusation of every single user.

Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming. It’s Time for That to Change

A few lines later, the blog post tells us about the one and only action SO has already started to take about this topic:

Let’s do something about comments. Condescension and sarcasm have been reluctantly tolerated in comments for too long. We’ll research possible feature changes, but let’s start by working with the community and our community managers to start flagging and deleting unkind comments now.

Again, it's the bad community that is hostile, but the good samaritan SO has started flagging and deleting those comments.

I ignore the fact that the blog post is, indeed, racist, anti-women and against every user from a minority. I'm in the minority too, English isn't my first language and I'm sure there are plenty of grammatical errors in this post too. Still, somehow I managed to read the help center before I started using SO, my first post on SO got an upvote and I had 2 or 3 downvoted questions in total, out of over 100. So, out of personal experience, calling the reason for low quality content is being from a minority that doesn't speak perfect English, is ridiculous.


The only problem that exists is, that SO constantly tries to optimize the site only to attract new people to ask questions. Look at the new navbar, and how SO defended that horrible thing - a lot of defense came from:

but it attracts new users to ask a question

Then there was plenty of discussion about the "ask a question" template. You could formerly smell the fear that a single user stops to ask a question because it was too complicated to do so.

But improving that and making it complicated to ask a new question would be the only way to make SO a welcoming place. Every single question on SO, from whoever with whatever background, is well received, upvoted and most likely perfectly answered; as long as it's a good question, following the standards of the site.

I also don't share the fear that new users would stop asking if it's complicated to ask. Yes - we would lose all those "it isn't working questions" with no code by someone who doesn't give a ..., but we wouldn't lose a single high quality question by someone who really has a problem and needs help with it. Someone in this situation is willing (maybe after being forced to) to read the help center, because it's well known that the community of SO is the best option for help with programming questions. For everyone who has the respect to follow some simple but sensible rules.

4
  • What is "SO" here? There is Stack Exchange Inc., the company and there is Stack Overflow, the programmer Q&A site. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 16:27
  • Or perhaps Stack Overflow the company? Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 16:35
  • 5
    @ashisnitinpatil no, my critic doesn’t go against the community.
    – baao
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:20
  • @baao sorry, I misread. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:10
95

Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer.

Following this logic, I feel that the Stack Overflow employees are pushing a narrative that's divisive and will only serve to harm this community. I feel that they do want to conflate these two groups. I feel that they jammed gender and colour in the conversation to use as a banner when introducing another 'Summer of Love'. I feel that this is uncalled for. I feel that tools can be used to assist the gender-less colourless newbie user3092301281 to ask a better question. I feel that that is what we should focus our efforts on and not on implying that this community is a blob of racist sexist white privileged males.

I guess they can pack up their magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer.

1
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    Thank you for more politely and clearly phrasing a thought I'm sure a lot of us had on seeing that bit…. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:50
80

Conflating the hostility towards clueless newbies with racism or other forms of discrimination is misguided, IMHO. Most of the time we can't tell the race or gender of the OP.

In my experience, racism isn't an issue on SO. OTOH, we do get a lot of low quality questions from newbies of all races, and when the OP is not a native English speaker it can make the quality even worse.

Yes, plenty of ESL people are constantly endeavoring to improve their technical English (and some have a better command of English than typical native speakers), but some who do not have a good command of the technical English used in the IT world don't seem to care too much about that, since they feel that they communicate well enough in English with their compatriots.

IME, when an OP writes a decent question which has some minor English errors that don't significantly impact the understandability of their question, the regulars don't mind, and it's not unusual for someone to come along and clean those errors up for them. But when a not-so-good question is riddled with so much bad English that it's hard to understand, then the regulars are quite within their rights to let the OP know that their question is not up to scratch. And they should be able to do that without the fear that they're going to be branded as racist for doing so.

Another important factor is that even though we now live in a connected world cultural values and expectations still vary from place to place. These differences can increase the risk of misinterpretation. For example, a kid from a small town in India who's managed to make it into an IT course or job is quite entitled to feel pretty special, and his family may constantly remind him of how clever he must be to understand computers. But then he comes to SO and we don't treat him like a special snowflake and he doesn't know why.

He has a problem that he needs to solve right now. He's heard that SO solves IT problems, so he comes here, has a quick look around and dumps his question on us. He has no idea how rude he appears to us for simply expecting that we'll write code for his poorly-explained homework-dump question. The hostility he may receive in response isn't motivated by actual racism, as far as I can tell. He'd get the same response for acting like a spoiled brat, no matter what race he was. ;)


I certainly agree that it would make the SO newbie experience less daunting if more regulars made more of an effort to encourage newbies by friendly positive behaviour and constructive criticism rather than the negative "You're doing it wrong, read [some help page]". Yes, I link newbies to [ask] and [mcve] etc in my comments, but I try to give the impression that I want to help them, I'm not just dismissing them.

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  • 34
    Let's not even get into the fact that the term "-of-colour' is inherently racist and offensive to many outside the US context. When I see the need to refer to people except those with colourless, translucent skin, I'll see the use-case, but otherwise, no. I have some patience for your young IT kid in India not being culturally sensitive, but SO who employs University graduates, presumably some in marketing and PR, should do better. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:28
  • 3
    While you do have a point in that "Most of the time we can't tell the race or gender of the OP", the post, as I understand it, isn't about racist (or misogynous, etc.) behaviour, but about second-order effects (that is, non-discriminatory behaviour that might affect different groups of people in different ways). Admittedly, the post doesn't make that very clear (mentioning that bias test in passing, on a footnote, might not have been a good idea); Tim's answer here is an improvement in that respect.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:36
  • 3
    @toonarmycaptain It's a two-way street: the young IT kid in India isn't fully aware of the cultural differences, but conversely many Anglo / American / Europeans aren't experts in Asian cultures either. For that matter, the Indian kid theoretically has an advantage there, due to the global availability of American & European movies. True, Indian movies are also globally available, but they certainly don't have the same impact on the West that Western stuff has on the rest of the world. And of course, the world seen through movies is somewhat distorted.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:36
  • @duplode Fair enough, and I have read Tim's post. He does have a valid point, but as you say, the original blog post certainly didn't make that point very clearly.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:38
  • 2
    True, but in the same way as I in a professional setting have the responsibility and training (or should have) to conduct myself with sensitivity towards my clients, but my clients don't have the same expectations placed on them, I expect more out of SO as a site than it's users. My objection to that term comes from a European, Australian, American context, not so much Asian, anyway. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:41
  • 2
    @PatrickParker Certainly! I chose an Indian for my example because we do get a lot of Indians on SO, and they face a bigger cultural difference than Europeans do. And there have been accusations of racism on SO against some Indians in the recent past (specifically in relation to using their local language in chat rooms). I don't notice many Spanish speakers on SO in the tag I mainly frequent (Python). Either their English is excellent, or they use the Spanish Stack Overflow, although we do occasionally see questions in Spanish posted on the English language SO site.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 13:24
  • @PM2Ring: isn't the PC term "native American"?
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:23
  • 10
    @usr2564301: Not sure if joking, but these Indians are from, y'know, India. (There is no PC term for them that I know of.) Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:57
  • @PM2Ring I have also wondered at this as, being an educator in an area with a variety of ESL students (Spanish, Hindi, Chinese, Creole, and Português). I know I have many students use the Spanish or Português sites and state that they love them. Yet, the Hindi and Chinese speakers have a decidedly harder time (with SO culture) and point to dropped sites. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 2:47
  • 3
    This group is also more likely to take corrections to their grammar as a slight or rude act. One student advised me that in Indian culture there is more emphasis in harmony, avoiding offense, and on building the bond between people when communicating. This was in response to my review of his code, but I think also points to why there may be more offense taken by this group to standard industry and academic jargon and speaking. I actually think this would be an interesting event to research on SO (I took that person's communication advice and had much better engagement) but the blog post :\ Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 3:00
  • 2
    Thanks for your comments, @JGreenwell. India is a diverse place, with probably more diversity than the whole of Europe. It has 22 official languages, including English. Many Indians have excellent English skills, and it's often used as a lingua franca in India by people whose local languages differ. Of course, Indian English has a long history, and has developed into a distinct dialect, with some unique differences. Eg, Indians tend to use the word "doubt" somewhat differently to speakers of Western dialects of English.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:22
  • 1
    FWIW, another reason that I chose an Indian for my example is that I've spent a lot of time interacting with Indian immigrants and their families here in Australia. I was quite fascinated by Hindu philosophy and religion in my youth, and spent several years studying it and discussing it with other Westerners and with Indians. And I love Indian food. :) So I feel that I'm probably a little more familiar with Indian culture than is typical of many Westerners.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:30
62

Stop the stream of garbage at its source, and the problem disappears. The community need change nothing; only SE needs to be changed.

I only half agree with this. The stream of garbage questions is certainly the source of a lot of frustration among long-time users of Stack Overflow, but I don't agree that the only solution to the problem is stopping that stream. When a garbage question is posted, nothing is forcing anyone to leave a snarky or rude comment. People can choose to say nothing at all. Deleting these comments, as we've historically done a great job of, is not enough. People know they're still being posted.

Does Stack Exchange really want to conflate newbies with women/people of color?

Yes. When groups that have been historically marginalized see a community treating new users (or any sub-group) like crap, they can safely decide that they don't want to risk participating in that community. It doesn't really matter that the community is welcoming (or more like neutral, in my opinion) towards the marginalized groups. They can see the bad behavior. I don't blame them if they assume that it will extend to them too.

One of the (many) things that I loved when I first joined Stack Overflow was that SO openly declared that "RTFM" is not an acceptable answer or comment. They even blocked people from posting directly to LMGTFY because it was seen as too snarky. I think this community needs to get back to those roots and stop making excuses for the rudeness. There is a real problem here. If focusing on solving it for marginalized groups solves that problem for everyone, then that's fine. Let's solve it.

23
  • 13
    Does "historically marginalized" make sense considering SO's global reach. Who do you define as historically marginalized? Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:03
  • 50
    @geometrikal I'm not here for hair-splitting. Marginalized groups exist. That's enough. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:05
  • 18
    Well it cuts both ways. If rudeness is off putting, we need to stamp out the biggest source of rudeness: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/309018/545127
    – Raedwald
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:24
  • 7
    @Raedwald I don't disagree with that. "The community need change nothing" is the part I disagree with. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:26
  • 12
    "When a garbage question is posted, nothing is forcing anyone to leave a snarky or rude comment" Absolutely; the perception I think a lot of visitors/new users have is that this site has a bunch of grumpy people who have amassed a sort of gentleman's club and want to keep it that way. A lot of parallels could be drawn with the current western political climate...
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:11
  • 8
    I have no trouble making known that I'm even part of the problem of snarky and grumpy comments borne out of frustration. It's extra special for me because I embody not just the frustrated veteran user stereotype but also the angry moderator stereotype. Hopefully I'm one of not few, but many, who are going to make every effort to work on fixing that from here on out...
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:15
  • 11
    Kind of a tangent, but I will say that when I changed my profile from a stock image and my old name "Flex Fiend" to my real picture and "Black Dynamite", I received concerted serial downvoting. Mind you, my questions span everything from AWS, to Angular, to SQL Server, so it couldn't have been that the questions were bad from a discipline perspective. In addition, many of these questions were very, very old. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:38
  • 13
    @BlackDynamite I'm sorry that happened (and thanks for keeping an open mind about the possible reasons why). I know that most of the community here are good people who wouldn't do that based on race or gender, but it only takes a couple of jerks to make a place seem intolerant. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:49
  • 5
    After thinking about it a while,I kind of get what people are saying about conflating groups, but I think there is also some point-missing. SO user demographics do not reflect the make up of the developer workforce. This is very similar to FOSS contributors. How can that change? Probably some of the causes are the same. When new people show up address the fact that seemingly the stay/go rates are correlated with these characteristics. There are aspects of the "on boarding" that are having disparate impact. Trying to understand that and fix it is totally reasonable.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 0:25
  • 6
    It would help everyone if more good people would stay and contribute. I have read at least one study that says the women leave FOSS projects because they don't want to use their free time to engage with the drama and the hazing; for some reason guys maybe enjoy that? Or maybe if you are already dealing with it at work it doesn't seem pleasant. Some people just don't love to argue all the time. I know I don't like engaging in closing questions or down voting, it's not fun for me and it seems to me that whenever I come to meta the "big" people think that's the main point of the site.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 0:30
  • 5
    Well no, it is that men seem to disproportionately enjoy hazing and watching other people do hazing or be hazed. That has nothing at all to do with liking programming. If people were on SO because they liked programming they wouldn't be on meta they would be ... idk answering questions? Asking and answering questions? Not on SO because they are spending their time programming not having a fun time getting badges and complaining about people asking bad questions? No, this has nothing at all to do with liking programming, it has to do with being in a group.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 3:21
  • 8
    "Be Nice" has been the official guideline since at least 2012, upping the ante from "Be Civil", which was the guideline since 2008. This is actually changing it even further, to "Be Especially Welcoming". I don't know if that can work at SO scale, but I do know that removing downvotes and duplicate votes will be required, which implies a parallel system. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 9:23
  • 23
    @JeffAtwood People don't need to be especially welcoming, they just need to stop being rude and snarky. Basically just follow the "Be Nice" guideline, which they aren't doing now. I know the ideas of removing downvotes and duplicate closes have been floated, but I'd hate to lose those. I think they're critical to maintaining quality standards. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 11:20
  • 4
    I had to google RTFM and LMGTFY. Good answer. and yes - people don't need to roll out a welcome mat, they need to stop being rude.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:19
  • 6
    @YvetteColomb I can't tell you how happy I am that people have to Google those two terms now. :) Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:50
57

Upon re-reading this blog article I have got my own theory on what is in there. Simply put, it looks like a trick to gain points at performance reviews in the Stack Exchange company (most likely by exploiting some kind of "inclusivity" KPI).

What made me think about this is that article conveniently lists prior efforts of that kind:

Summer of Love, the closing overhaul, revising the “Be Nice” Policy, and our coaching experiment

It misses another similar effort to retire the term “rep-whore” (maybe because some points in the article can make it look like a total waste: the answerer gets scolded for “encouraging ‘low-quality’ questions.”), but I am happy to complete the list by just referring it here. (I may have missed to list a few more things of that kind, but oh well.)

All these "waves of niceness" look like following the same scheme: 1) Someone from Stack Exchange raises concern about this, 2) It follows with a brief period of high public activity that ends with some "actionable items" to do, 3) After a while action items are reported as successfully implemented, and 4) Some time later, after the dust settles, someone reports a similar concern and the whole circle repeats.

I've been scratching my head trying to figure what's the point of these strange seemingly useless cycles and why it feels so much like deja vu when it clicked that I observed almost exactly the same scheme in one of my prior projects (it was in the ancient past, and that's why it was so difficult for me to recognize this pattern).

In that old project of mine, folks were utilizing a scheme like that in order to gain points in yearly performance reviews and they managed to do it four times in a row until that scheme was revealed.

To avoid misunderstanding, I do not insist that my theory is correct. Nor am I interested in wasting my time scrupulously learning whether it is indeed so or not. I merely described how it feels like to me.

...Borrowing a useful point from the very article I talk about here,

the nice thing about problems that relate to how people feel is that finding the truth is easy. Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer. You’re done.

(Below are rather lengthy details of that old project story for those who are curious - feel free to skip.)


In that old project, it once happened that someone up the management ladder came up with a concern brought from customer meetings that our customers were very seriously unhappy about a particular aspect of our product.

The development team happily accepted that concern, because we also felt that something was wrong there and complaints we heard in the past from our QA also supported that - it is just that management didn't allocate resources to address this issue (for good reasons, but that's a different story).

- Woo-hoo, we saw it as a great opportunity to improve the product and make it better stand against competitors, so we allocated resources and started working hard on improving the product. After a while we were done and were thanked for effort and it was great.

- Next year though, another guy from up the ladder came up with pretty much a similar concern. We figured that it makes sense because the issue was quite big, and we likely missed some improvements in previous round. So we again gladly accepted it and started working and found and fixed things that we indeed missed in previous year and we were thanked for that and it was cool.

- Third year we were surprised to hear that yet another guy from up the ladder raised about the same concern. This time it was tough because in previous two rounds we found and fixed everything we could think about and we just couldn't figure what else we could do there to make customers happy.

When discussing this "3rd round" concern we pointed that out and suggested to establish some kind of general approach that could help us better learn about what specifically makes customers unhappy and immediately address it thus avoiding such concerns at all. But this suggestion was rejected with some obscure high-brow reasons so we tried to just do the best we could. We wasted quite a bit of time and effort and got that boring thanks in the end and it wasn't cool.

- Then, the fourth year came and, believe it or not, yet another guy from up above passed us the same tiring concern (they probably didn't know, but in the ears of our team it sounded like "you guys suck because three years have passed and you are still unable to improve").

And we again suggested a general approach and it was again rejected with obscure reasons and we again started messing with the product, wasting our time and desperately trying to guess where else and what else we could do after prior three rounds.

This time though, one thing was different. At one point I figured that all these cycles of "concern - fix - success - repeat", these cycles, they perfectly match the yearly cycles of performance reviews in our company. So I (informally) started communicating within the team and (especially) up the management ladder that these repeating cycles look pretty much like attempts to game the performance review system.

- I made my best effort to make my suspicion (informally) known as broadly as possible, and especially among the management ranks. Another thing I "broadcasted" this way was a warning that if this repeats the fifth time I will make a formal public complaint about that matter.

And somehow, when next year started, we weren't bothered with that "customer concern" again (and it never resurfaced again after that). And somehow, some time later, we were allowed to establish that general approach to deal with these kind of issues at their root and this time it turned out that reasons it was rejected in the past somehow no longer held.

That's the end of the story, thanks for reading.

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  • 2
    I have my own concerns about how new changes could impact ongoing quality, but nothing has been revealed yet, so I am not too worried about it. Stack Exchange Inc are also sensible enough not to want to scare their existing userbase away. However, in common with most answers here, this answer does not address the problem of exclusion. I don't have any answers for that - it's a hard problem for anyone to answer - but can we acknowledge how we appear to outsiders, and that making an effort to be inclusionary is not a bad aim in itself?
    – halfer
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 10:47
  • 2
    @halfer I've seen this acknowledged many times already in the past. And in the past I tried my best to help addressing concerns like that. I would be happy to see any progress in that, after so many times of trying. But after seeing this problem raised handful times in past few years and observing how things don't seem to get any better it's maybe about time to think a bit broader, maybe try to find if there's something behind the curtain
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 10:52
  • 2
    OK, fair enough. My interpretation of the various attempts at Be Nice is that (a) SO has to try different things to see how they bed in; (b) new information comes from marginalised communities as they develop the confidence to speak up; (c) the attitudes of SO change in relation to the changing socio-political context in which it does business. So, broadly, I don't see them as a waste of time - they are just iterations on trying to get culture right.
    – halfer
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 10:58
  • I wonder, to try to acknowledge the issue around inclusion, could you expand on your thoughts as to what is "behind the curtain"? For example, if you think inclusivity is not a real problem, I wonder how we could measure this in the real world (including on the web outside of SO) so that we can get a picture of the number of folks who have a negative picture of our community? My guess is that the blog post we're responding to has seen the data (e.g. large numbers of disgruntled users who have been given a rough ride) and I say there's no harm in acknowledging this sort of thing.
    – halfer
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 11:03
  • 1
    @halfer at one point I also believed in that iterations theory (my own example here shows that this is for real). I dropped it though after I discovered that there seem to be no progress at all (that is, if you don't count as progress stuff that is usually reported at company performance reviews, like the following action items were successfully implemented and resulted in removal of 123456789 comments)...
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 11:04
  • 1
    ...quoting self, "how come that after years of plugging users' mouths and twisting their arms with summers of love and hunting the snark, the second-highest-voted question at MSO is Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late? Makes one wonder if this way works, doesn't it?"
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 11:04
  • 2
    @halfer I think the problem is real and I would want to see the progress in addressing it. That was my position about 5 years ago when I first heard about similar matters here and that hasn't changed since. Do we have this clear now?
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 11:06
  • 3
    Yes, that's clearer, thank you. I'm afraid with the level of hostility displayed in various parts of this thread elsewhere, anything that (appears to) pour cold water on wanting to do better reads like a roll-of-the-eyes from in-group members.
    – halfer
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 11:09
  • It's an interesting theory, but it seems quite unlikely in the light of what Tim Post said here. It seems like the people demanding action are not from "up the ladder". Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 17:28
  • 2
    "Stack Exchange Inc are also sensible enough not to want to scare their existing userbase away" How lovely that time was when it was still possible to believe this.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 18:07
48

If a Christian enters a mosque without taking his shoes off,
If a queer man enters the swimming pool with his jeans still on,
If a woman continues her phone call once the cinema screening starts,
If a person with black skin joins the Weight Watchers with a hamburger in his hand,

are they discriminated against by not being welcomed?

Does the community need to take inclusive measures, other than the sign on the door that tells about the rules? Do they deserve special care?

Of course cases of actual discrimination need to be handled, and they are, as far as I can tell, by the moderators who do a really good job.

Apart, as long as Stack Overflow stays pretty ignorant against all good suggestions of improving the system, the blog post in question is just an insult to the whole community.

Let's simply ignore it and move on, contributing as we did before and ensuring that Stack Overflow is the place where useful questions get answered.

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    Others might try to nitpick about your analogies, but IMHO they nicely summarize the conflation that took place in the blog post. I do not so much agree with your last paragraph, though: If there are "authorities" that compel certain sorts of language or behavior, ignoring them will allow things to derail rather quickly. People should not be afraid to speak their mind, and when they notice that something goes wrong, they should point it out. Far too often, silence is considered to be a form of acquiescence.
    – Marco13
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:31
  • Isn't it obvious the answers to all those questions are "yes". I mean ISIS will kill you for having sex outside of wedlock, but I assume they'll be pretty dope with the idea if you say the Shahada and change your ways. People don't have all decades of experience growing their neckbeards. Makes sense to me we would talk in terms of people who have them, and people who don't (as is statistically true), and try to give others the opportunity to catch up. Commented May 11, 2018 at 17:52
40

Stack Overflow is all about discrimination. Not discrimination against people, but discrimination between things. Namely: Between good and bad questions and answers.

And only about that!

There is discrimination against people, based on their age, nationality, race, ethnicity, religion and all-that-gender-and-sex-related stuff. Hardly anybody will argue about that. If this happens on Stack Overflow, then flag+delete the posts. The mechanisms for that are already in place.

But Stack Overflow was and is (and hopefully: will be) one of the places where all this in general does not matter. This is a "built-in" feature or rather a side-effect of the the purity of the original mission of Stack Overflow: Accumulate knowledge in form of good questions and good answers. No off-topic discussion and social stuff.

This restriction obviously finds its limit in the discussions on meta, about blog posts like this one. But this is intended and necessary, to keep the focus of the main site clean and sharp.

There are few websites that are truly built on meritocratic ideals. If I had to name three of them, I would say "Wikipedia, Stack Exchange, and ... let me think for a moment...". The idealistic goals, the openness and altruistic nature of Stack Overflow are some of the reasons of why I think that its importance can hardly be overestimated, and why I'm somewhat "proud" to be part of all that. "Openness" here mainly refers to the fact that all content is licensed under Creative Commons, that they regularly offer data dumps, that they make most of their decisions transparent, the trustworthiness that results from all that, but of course, also to the fact that anybody can participate, regardless of their skin color or genitalia.

There have been other occasions where social and political issues have been pulled into Stack Overflow. Most importantly the discussions about gay marriage and immigration policies. The reactions there often showed some favor for the underlying ideas. But the turmoils and heated discussions should have made clear that the management should be very, very wary about how much politics is acceptable for a site that is focused at programming Q/A.

Now they did it again: It feels like the Stack Overflow/Stack Exchange community as a whole is accused of sexism and racism. I'd call this a "reversed implicit bias": Not all problems in the world are caused by sexism and racism. You have to make the distinction clear.


A personal note (although it may seem contradictory to what I said above - as I said, the discussion here on meta is intended for sorting things like this out) : I've been observing certain developments for a while now, about diversity, social justice, implicit biases, ideologies and their long-term consequences. The discussions about this accumulated in the context of the Google Memo. And if someone was aware of the difficulties of these topics, he (or she, or zhe, or they...) should at the very least come to the conclusion that one should be very, very careful about the statements and exact wording, and not throw out a blog post where methodological/technical problems of a programming Q/A site are arbitrarily interspersed with ideological/political ideas.

And to make this clear as well: Of course, there has to be a discussion about these topics. One could probably argue about whether this should take place here, because it dilutes the original goal of the Stack Exchange network. But in any case, it should not be initiated by such a blog post in its given form.

And another aside - I'm not proposing this, just mentioning it to get the idea across: If you think that there is sexism and racism, for example, due to user names and avatars, you could disallow custom avatars and custom user names, and turn people into soulless question-answering-machines. But for me, that doesn't sound like a desirable outcome either...

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    Re: "No off-topic discussion and social stuff." You could include duplicates in that list. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 16:54
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    @PeterMortensen Duplicates are, to some extent, inevitable. On the one hand, because the site-internal search features could ... erm... be improved. On the other hand, because some (complex) questions may be hard to articulate or use certain synonyms or different wordings in general. But these are also technical aspects that are already handled reasonably well with the queues and vote mechanism, and constantly improved. (Some socializing here: Thanks for the edits ;-))
    – Marco13
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 17:12
38

For the last 6 years or so, the system has blocked between 40-50% of all attempts to ask questions. The trend has been increasing without much work being done to add blocks. Clearly some people just give up. But even more clearly, some people are persistent enough to get around all the barriers we place in front of them to get their question in front of you, the regular users of the site. (By the way, there's a good chance some questions are getting worse as askers try things that that are orthogonal to good questions.) I'm gonna venture to guess that not many of those persistent askers are complaining on Twitter about that.

Meanwhile, we've heard from another set of people that don't bother using the site at all. Maybe they asked once and didn't feel good about the experience. Maybe they saw other people complain about their bad interactions on the site. Maybe they found a question via Google and saw intimidating comments between the question and the answer. At any rate, they are not asking questions and are clearly not part of the problem.

Maybe (and I know this is crazy) the second group could be part of the solution. Look, I admire those of you who stick with this crazy place day after day. You don't have to do it, but you care about quality information on the Internet, helping people, fixing problems and, perhaps most profoundly, the community itself enough to keep coming. It's frustrating to me and everyone on the community team that you gotta deal with the same boring duplicate questions (which are probably homework problems anyway) and code dumps from folks who don't know which end to stick in the compiler. That's why we built blocks and review queues and so on. But wouldn't it be better if we just had more questions from people who are really interested in learning? And wouldn't it be great if they learned enough to start helping out with triaging, answering, reviewing and closing questions? And, dare I dream, what if they helped us build a system that isn't abused by terrible questions?

When I worked at JPL, we had a complicated system designed to run science algorithms on satellite data. Every now and then, the system would get stuck and I'd have to restart it manually. If that happened in the middle of the night, we'd lose hours of precious processing time. After several months of this I finally found the problem. They system had a half dozen processes that communicate via IPC. One of the servers would stop responding to messages, which prevented the entire system from running new jobs. There was a bug and I had the worst time finding it because I couldn't reliably reproduce it. We were almost ready to start doing shifts so that someone would always be around to babysit the process.

One day, I asked myself what that process actually did. It had a generic-sounding name, scheduler, if I recall. So it scheduled stuff. It would get some job metadata (from planner), request resources (from resource_manager) and if there was enough resources, it would tell planner to send the job to runner. It was a middleman that added nothing to the process. And with that, I had a solution. Over a few days, I stripped out the buggy process, let planner talk directly to resource_manager and slept a lot better at night.

I've got this new job now and we're living with another buggy process. Despite adding new review queues, we're getting a higher ratio of objectively bad questions over time. Meanwhile, our group immunity system is working overtime: downvotes, close votes, flags and hostile comments. But those aren't working either. Maybe people feel better and maybe bad questions are getting deleted. Nothing stops the tide, however.

You know what would? If we just stopped answering bad questions. But that's not enough. It turns out that while answering questions encourages people to ask again, so does commenting and editing. That's not enough either because people are also more likely to ask again if they get a vote (up or down). Bizarrely, even getting their questions closed is slightly encouraging to these users. The only things that really discourages another question is deleting or completely ignoring that first question. This week our data scientist analysed the Tumbleweed badge which is awarded for being ignored. She found the people who earned it asked fewer subsequent questions than people who got one (and only one) feedback event, including a downvote.

If

  1. our current systems of quality control aren't working,
  2. potentially productive contributors are being repelled by those systems and
  3. ignoring bad questions is the best way to discourage a user from coming back,

could it be possible to solve both problems by ripping out counterproductive systems?


You might be wondering why we are suddenly talking about "newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups". Isn't this a knee jerk reaction to the latest round of criticism on Twitter? My reaction isn't. I've been worried about our gender imbalance for years. Last year, several of us in the company put ourselves in the shoes of a new user. Within the company, this problem has been a constant source of concern as long as I've been here. So why don't we talk about it more often?

Here at Stack Overflow, Inc., we like to think of ourselves as the rescuer of developers. We tell ourselves that we help programmers by:

We've not really hit the ball out of the park on any of our goals that aren't directly Q&A. Meanwhile, we've done pretty well with not only Stack Overflow, but with over 170 sites on the network. As a result, our resources (read, executive priorities) have been focused on parts of the business that are doing less well. As an organization, we took those communities as a given. It was discouraging at times to be a community manager. The shift back to solving the problems experienced by the community has renewed my hope.

Some of you have expressed anger. It seems Jay's blog post paints the community with charges of racism and sexism. Encouraging readers to take the Implicit Association Test (IAT) struck some as unfair. (Indeed, meta analysis suggests the test has weak predictive power, though "IAT can still be a useful tool for researchers, educators, managers, and students who are interested in attitudes, prejudices, stereotypes, and discrimination.") Anticdotally, overt harassment is rare and is quickly removed from the site. Compared to unmoderated and under-moderated spaces, our sites are incredibly civil. Pseudonyms and anonymity mean we often don't know which users are part of marginalized groups at all.

To paraphrase St. Paul:

What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, [company resources are going back to fixing Q&A], and in that I rejoice.

There's a bit of a through-the-looking-glass effect going on. For those of us who have acclimated to this side of the mirror, Stack Overflow culture might be a little gruff, but it's nearly always fair. For people who have recently arrived, it's all a bit confusing. We've seen that even minor improvements to the ask page can reduce bad questions. This is the sort of change we're working on right now. We think that will help all sorts of new users understand the community. If so, it will be a relief to all of us.

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    "I've been worried about our gender imbalance for years." And that's fine. Do something about gender balance. But why is the blog post laying the blame for that imbalance on the community? And doing so in such a way that it suggests that women aren't much different from new users. I notice that your post, while noting the imbalance, makes no claim that it is the fault of the community. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 2:53
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    I think people really misread the blog post, not sure if it is defensiveness, obtuseness or what. The post was very clear that there is not much in the way of direct intentional gender or race bias, but that nonetheless there clearly seems to be something that is not deliberate/explicit (and hence implicit) going on that correlates with race and gender. Anyway, I think your point about ignoring is good. Using data is good. The issue is not losing people who ask bad questions, it is losing people who ask good questions, possibly due to how bad questions are responded to. Complicated.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 3:44
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    @Elin: Communication 101: if you don't intend to accuse people of something, don't put such an accusation in the third paragraph. Even if you make statements absolving them later on, the first impression of the post is highly accusatory. So you're basically saying the blog post is poorly written. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 4:06
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    @NicolBolas: I'm not sure how you are counting paragraphs. Do you mean the one that starts "Now, that’s not because most Stack Overflow contributors are hostile jerks." and ends "The real problem isn’t the community — it’s us"? I definitely see how the post could come off as accusatory. (I'm not trying to be sarcastic. That's the only paragraph that seems to match your description in the area.) As a white guy who participated early on I feel that way a bit too. But I'm sick of the culture wars and ready to fix stuff.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 4:38
  • 1
    @JonEricson: "I'm not sure how you are counting paragraphs." Since we don't have indentation, I count as a paragraph anything the HTML inserts an empty line between. The "third paragraph" is the one that I quoted in my question; the first in a list of two items. The distance between that statement and the one you cited is 2 paragraphs, which is plenty of time for people to get defensive. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 4:59
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    @JonEricson: "But I'm sick of the culture wars and ready to fix stuff." That's fine. But this blog post is clearly inflaming "culture wars" sentiment. It fuels posts like this one. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 5:03
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    Why are you listening to crazy people who have problem with the words "exactly" and "clearly"? Look at the crappy "alternative" she promotes askquestions.tech that site is completely useless as a repository of knowledge, it might help some people feel better though. Is this what you want SO to become?
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 9:32
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    Looking at how a well intentioned user from here was treated I doubt that it's even going to do that, it will just collapse into itself in a couple of months. One of those "We are inclusive of what we want to include".
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 9:44
  • 3
    This does not address the issue here at all. We've seen that even minor improvements to the ask page can reduce bad questions. This is the sort of change we're working on right now. We think that will help all sorts of new users. Are you trying to suggest that the Ask page is making SO less welcoming to women, non-whites, and other "marginalized" groups? I don't see how anything you've said is really relevant.
    – J...
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 11:18
  • 13
    @Oleg WAIT WTF?! "We are inclusive, but not for people like you, we don't want your help" Do they even realize how that makes them sound? Even the less insulting part of the reception there is insulting "doesn’t even have the vocabulary for the conversations needed let alone the will to have them." So there's nothing to do, we're a lost cause and will never include anyone. thx for the vote of confidence and inclusiveness there..... wow
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 12:25
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    It's also... closed?! so they shut down stuff after they are done discussing it? shutting down halfer because he misunderstood the intent of their platform? how dare they! isn't that.... exactly what they accuse us of doing? -_-
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 12:34
  • 3
    "Stop answering bad questions" will lead to complaints about a 'hostile reception' at SO. Allowing and answering bad questions will lead to a decrease of quality but – certainly – an increase of quantity. Choose what you want (you can pick only one).
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:34
  • 3
    @Oleg: Glancing through that site, I think it will end up being a lot less useful than Stack Overflow for general programming questions. That's fine. If it finds its own niche, good for them. I wish we'd gotten out ahead of this sooner, since we've known about the problems for awhile. In any case, maybe don't use words like "crazy" about people who are complaining we are too harsh? Kinda makes the point for them, does it not?
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 22:46
  • 2
    @J...: I'm suggesting we have done a poor job helping people who are outside of the Stack Overflow culture (including women, who are not well represented) know how to ask good questions.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 22:50
  • 10
    @JonEricson And the people in this group, which includes women, have difficulties asking good questions because they are women? Or because they are "persons of colour"? Or is it simply that they are people whose unifying trait is that they are outsiders to SO culture? If it is your opinion that it is the former then I think someone should show you the door. If the latter, which I think it is, then I think the overwhelming point of the explosive discussion here is that SO should mind what they say when they make public statements and keep race and gender out of it.
    – J...
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 23:10
27

What I don't really see in either the blog or in these comments is a discussion of sensitivity to criticism. Generally I think we treat it as a mark of a good developer that they are open to criticism: they welcome criticism, they treat it as an opportunity to improve their skills. And when experienced developers answer questions they often make the mistake of assuming that the OP has a similarly thick skin.

But people who are less confident in their own ability are likely to be more sensitive to criticism, and to perceive criticism as hostile. This is where it might indeed be true that those who belong to groups that are under-represented in the programming community are in the same category as "newbies": they don't feel themselves to be part of the "in crowd" and they are more likely to sense technical criticism as rejection.

Looking at my own responses to questions, I'm conscious that I come down very heavily on people who haven't done enough research, and on people who haven't developed good problem-solving skills. I like to imagine that I do this in a way that encourages people to develop better research and problem-solving skills and thus to become better developers. But I suspect that for people who lack self-confidence such responses are discouraging rather than encouraging.

One thing I like about the blog is that it questions some SO assumptions. We're often told to restrict ourselves to answering the question; I've always felt that I'm trying to do more than answer the question -- I'm also trying to help the developer learn the techniques to answer the question for themselves next time around. And that means I really should be thinking about whether my answer motivates or demotivates.

One SO feature that I find notoriously demotivating is the unexplained downvote. I really don't think you should be allowed to downvote a question or an answer without explaining your reasons. I also know that whenever I say this, I get a lot of anonymous downvotes. But I'm fortunate enough to have a thick skin.

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    How can we tell the confident from those who lack self-confidence?
    – user9455968
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:09
  • 3
    How can we improve unless we're open to (constructive) criticism? Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:30
  • 3
    @AnsgarWiechers Ask any good teacher. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:44
  • 7
    @MichaelKay We are not teacher...
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 21:27
  • 5
    @Stargateur And perhaps there lies the problem: if we were more professional in our approach, we would pay more regard to the psychology of the individual. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 22:14
  • 10
    @MichaelKay Sorry, I didn't come for this, I'm here to help to fix problem and I hope when I have problem people help me. I'm not here to fix psychology issue. If you like it, it's very good, but I never come to SO in this purpose and SO never ask for it. This wasn't the purpose of SO in the first place and all the site is not design for this purpose. These days have been very informing for me. I think we got a fork, two sides of people are using and helping on SO for two very different reason. Not that one is "better" than another but we definitively don't agree about what should be SO.
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 22:22
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    @Stargateur: Hate to break it to ya, but SO is all about educating, sharing knowledge, and growing as a developer and a person. If that doesn't sound like something you would enjoy, then you're on the wrong site.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 4:52
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    @BoltClock: I think there is a difference between sharing knowledge and being a teacher. We are not teachers. Teachers work most effectively in small-scale environments, with back-and-forth interactions with their students. By design, SO inhibits such interactions. SO is designed to be impersonal, to remove conversation. Question goes in, answer comes out, the end. So while we are here to build a database of knowledge which can be used by people to educate themselves, we are not intended to do the job of a teacher. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 5:23
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    @NicolBolas Quite. And by being impersonal, we become intimidating. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 7:47
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    @MichaelKay: Right. So if being intimidating is born of our design goals and the basic purpose of the site, attempts to fix it will inevitably erode what this site does, turning it into an over-complicated forum rather than a knowledge database. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:28
  • 4
    @AnsgarWiechers Good teachers know that it's not enough to tell people what they're doing wrong, you also have to encourage them and motivate them and not allow them to feel that they are a failure because they make a mistake. Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:56
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    That would require an amount of social interaction that I don't think SO can (or even should) allow. Not unless we want to assign personal tutors to every new user. Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:51
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    @AnsgarWiechers We don't need to go all the way. For instance, writing comments that are actionable rather than judgemental doesn't actually get in the way of how the site is supposed to operate.
    – duplode
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:37
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    Upvoted for "unexplained downvote". This is one of the reasons that I no longer ask questions on SO [though only one].
    – Arkaaito
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:05
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    Stack Overflow needs to decide if it wants to become CodeMentor or not. If it does, then set up the commercial and technical solutions needed to bill out tutoring.
    – Rob Grant
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:53
26

Please do not even post such an issue. It's not a social platform. On Stack Overflow everyone is a developer first; gender or color never comes in the picture.

We have rich set of FAQs; if one reads it carefully, even if a user is a newbie, they'll understand the quality of posts they should post. Better avoid digging too much into this. That would be my suggestion.

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    Trying to decide how to vote on this or if to respond positively/negatively, however you've neglected to include information about gender, sex, race, nationality, sexual preferences, favorite music, height, weight, age, political beliefs, religious position, PC-vs.-Mac, and many other important details. Please edit this response to clarify.
    – Nat
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 4:39
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    I wonder why would we even care about race terms ? Is it what we are for on StackOverflow. We should see each and every user as a developer only. If someone is new to this site, and having trouble posting quality posts, as old users we can always assist 'em, Isn't it ? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 4:46
  • 2
    Excuse me @Nat, you forgot Vim vs. Emacs. And Tabs matter.
    – J. Martin
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:06
22

I am curious and open to see some evidence. Where are the screenshots of these sexist, racist or other-ist posts on SO? I mean, every internet site has the occasional troll, but SO is blessedly free of them, compared to other websites.

I've seen people be a bit snarky, or snide, but even that is pretty rare. Sometimes, the person just doesn't speak English with the "desired" nuance. But offense is taken, rarely intended.

I've also been a questioner and received the kind of answers that we all know we're talking about here, but pretending we aren't. Answers from highly specialized people who are pretty far along the spectrum. Who don't really have in some cases the mental profile to be excessively polite. You don't have to take it personally, and usually, it's not personal.

At the end of the day, what is SO's purpose? Is it to make people feel good? Is it a collection of Judith Marten's Tech Advice? Or is it to provide accurate and relevant information on technical/programming questions?

I can't help but see this article as a bit of contemporary self-criticism.

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    A careful '+1' but "the mental profile to be excessively polite", really? Is that what you are looking for? From a link in Jon's answer, this complaint I found particularly difficult to swallow: "... but I found it immensely offputting that a stranger was bothered enough by two words of common politeness to silently remove them from my post. — Robots may not have use for these words, but humans use them to make others feel welcome and appreciated." [ct'd]
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 17:37
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    .. [TL;DR] My ideal of SO is to be more like wikipedia; "questions and answers, no distractions". How many wiki pages end with "Thank you for reading"?
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 17:38
  • 2
    @usr2564301 Looking at it from a different angle: how many Wikipedia articles prominently display an author's user card? In spite of our unwavering insistence on objectivity and avoidance of distractions, Stack Overflow never impersonal to the extent Wikipedia is.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 22:22
  • 1
    @duplode: but the alternative seems to be SO should be more like reddit. IMO there is plenty of room and reason for a middle ground, 'questions and answers, no distractions'.
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 22:50
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    @usr2564301 A middle ground, to be sure. I'm not suggesting SO should allow free-form conversation in Q&As. My point is more, so to say, abstract: person-to-person interactions are closer to the surface in SO, because the system makes it so. In typical cases, a Q&A is explicitly borne out of an interaction between two people. Also, we have a strong notion of post ownership here, something which is completely unthinkable over at Wikipedia.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 23:39
  • Some good points. I agree that being polite is essential, however I am a bit reserved that these assertions being put forward in the article are really about politeness. Also, we deal mostly in software here, defining polite and impolite is really not as straightforward as it may seem. Also, we have to take into account that many people coming to SO are...well... frustrated and pre-disposed to irritation. What burden of alleviating that do we have? I have a job and a life. How much do I owe? Why respond to questions if I'm compelled to be obsequious?
    – J. Martin
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:04
  • Believe me, I can find plenty of posts that qualify. The user who quotes Vox Day on social justice issues, the user who is a former Seattle politician who promotes Holocaust denial, the user who says that all women biologically want children, and many more.
    – Obie 2.0
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 0:34
  • @Obie2.0 Without seeing the posts I can't really judge. I'm pretty sure none of those things (vox day, holocaust denial, biological determinism) are legitimate posts about programming on SO. Most public websites have these problems. The question is whether or not it is the SO community, or some tin-foil-hat troll who does a drive by comment/answer spam. There are already mechanisms in place to remove and discourage that kind of content. People who engage in that should be warned/banned and are as far as I understand.
    – J. Martin
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 17:20
16

I've been downvoted before, but you know what? - that is quality control in action. This is not a personal assault on anyone. From my observations it has never been about race or gender either. The reason I even come to SE network is because I don't have to sift through pages upon pages of useless garbage to find an answer. If someone is incapable, or unwilling to read the tour or understand the concept of MCVE then maybe they should post elsewhere. Some people see that as insensitive - oh well.

You never see, or hear the person answering/asking/commenting (unless of course they have it in their profile). How can you conflate 'anonymous posting' with 'discrimination based on the traits that one wouldn't know if the post is anonymous'? You know just as much about Mr_Guy as you do User_104584 or xXL33tScopesXx - only what they allow you know. If one is incapable of writing a GOOD question/answer it more than likely will (and should) be down voted. You cannot, I repeat: CANNOT let low quality stuff through for the sake of "not hurting someone's feelings". You are completely undermining the entire purpose of this site if you do that.

IMHO, You cannot have both (quality and reduction in people feeling targeted). The only way you will ever achieve that is through better education on new user sign up, or before asking a question. Here's the core of the issue, though - most of the low quality stuff on here shows a lack of research; Research requires REading and SEARCHing. If someone won't even take the time to research their question before vomiting it out onto the page, do you truly think they will take the time to read ANYTHING you change on those pages?

I don't have a solution to offer for the perceived problem here. I do believe that we need to keep politics out of Stack Overflow; that way it can remain the reliable, 'to the point' QA resource it always has been. Besides, there's already a site for politics: https://politics.stackexchange.com/

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    The re-search part is two-fold: Some measures for making the site more "welcoming" have been proposed. Most of them aim at helping newbies (and even regular users) to write better questions. But none of them will eliminate the possibility that people scroll over all introductory texts, clear the input field of all helpful hints, and dump their homework and/or stack trace in there. However, some of them are worth a try, I'd say. (Beyond that, of course I agree that this race/gender thing was just inconsiderate and superfluous)
    – Marco13
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 22:18
  • @Marco13 I agree that anything is worth a try, even if they don't read it. I'm just concerned that it may be a wasted effort on some people. I suppose that is inevitable though. It's just highly insulting that the blog insinuated that all of this (or at least a majority) was due to race/gender instead of the community just keeping the site clean.
    – Mr Guy
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 12:42
  • It's hard to predict how new features will contribute to the in terms of quality, but it's good that SO does try things out and constantly tries to improve. (If something doesn't work, it's torn down - no problem). But in any case: There will always be bad questions. And among the group of people who write bad questions will always be certain minorities (nearly as a matter of fact). Bad questions will (hopefully!) never be "welcome". Therefore, certain members of minorities will have to cope with not being "welcome", and not blame that to the fact that they are a minority!
    – Marco13
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 17:23
8

This answer from Tim Post, the Director Of Community Strategy for Stack Overflow, is the closest to admitting something is wrong with The Post that you're going to get.

It even says "nobody failed at that goal", for whatever it's worth.

But it's not an apology. And they promise to keep up the pressure.

6

I think this extract from IPS confirms the conflation is not a mis-reading:

I've been talking with all sorts of people about it, looking for answers, because, while IPS may be a really obvious and blatant place these attitudes come out to "play" on Stack Exchange; it's not the only place.

  • The amount of horrible anti-{religion} trolling posts that many of the religion sites get on a frequent basis - often timed when the moderators aren't around - sickens me.
  • Anti-Semitic and Holocaust-denying trolling posts on History.
  • The reception a variety of users receive on Stack Overflow.
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  • 7
    To be fair,The first two points are spam or R/A posts tracked and deleted by charcoal. The Internet is filled with these kinds of trolls and I dont see it being solved by anything other than maybe more alert users flagging quickly and not engaging them.
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:47
  • 3
    @SurajRao, sure, but they are lumped together with "not being nice on SO"...
    – Benjol
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:51
  • 3
    agreed... error made here is they are taking an argument or issue in one community and extrapolating (?) to draw conclusions about another (if this was indeed the basis of the blog)
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:54
  • 42
    Bizarrely that same IPS user also impersonated a woman on SO with the goal of checking if women are treated differently here, the result of his experiment was... he was treated exactly the same.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:40
  • 2
    @Oleg That is not "[bizarre]". I'm not sure about what you are trying to imply here.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:43
  • 34
    @duplode User runs an experiment and finds out there is no problem with how women are treated on SO. 3 years later that same user quits IPS because he thinks minorities have an awful experience on it. His post presumably causes this blog post which claims that women have a problem on SO... I find this bizarre.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:50
  • 15
    The irony of it blowing up on a "site for people looking to improve their interpersonal communication skills"...
    – Benjol
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:02
  • 5
    @Oleg The implications here seem to be (a) That user's personal experiment on SO raises questions about the validity of his claims about IPS (claims of a different nature, on a very different site); and (b) That that user leaving IPS caused the blog post (as opposed to being just one additional event in the context that motivated it). I'd say both implications are rather wild leaps of reasoning, and also quite unfair to that user.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 14:21
  • 2
    @duplode (a) Nope, don't know how you managed to get that. (b) To me "being just one additional event in the context that motivated it" when that event is the last event == caused it. If you want to call it something else that's fine, the distinction is purely philosophical.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 14:38
  • 2
    @duplode I explained it here I don't understand what troubles you have understanding the relevancy. In your previous comment you claimed that it was motivated by it and now you claim that it has nothing to do with it?? You're contradicting yourself, this is fine people sometimes get confused but please choose only one version so I will know what to respond to.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:04
  • 12
    It's worth noting, since you're using my words, that that list excludes the actual horrendous behavior experienced on IPS directly. I've seen women get really dismissive commentary when they talk about issues that they have, non-white users' questions treated similarly, I've seen LGBT+ users be attacked, I've seen (interestingly) a lot of mean back and forth between vegans and non-vegans... Dismissing the first two bullet points as trolls is something I accept, though I don't think that all of those are necessarily trolling posts.
    – Catija
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:21
  • 13
    @user1114 I believe the term for that is "throwing the baby out with the bath water"... with a bit of "sticking your head in the sand" to boot. These users exist on the network... these sites just make them visible.
    – Catija
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:40
  • 10
    @Catija: if such users post good questions and answers, I don't mind what their personal issues are. As long as they don't show through. Can't a troll or a bigot have a programming question? It's not even a case of "don't ask, don't tell" – I am just not interested in a user's background. Questions and answers; no distractions, please. Am I sticking my head in the sand if I answer a question without asking first if their political ideas are kosher to me?
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 8:41
  • 5
    @Oleg and all those who pointed to my experiment on SO... Ya, once upon a time I ran an experiment to see if sexism was rampant on SO, after three months I didn't see it on Stack Overflow. Since then I have seen it repeatedly, and often, on other network sites and meta sites. "We don't talk about that problem on this particular Stack", does not equal "we don't have that problem on this particular Stack" I recognize a good few user names on this thread, kind of telling that the same folks that say it isn't a problem on SO, are contributing to the problem on other network sites...
    – apaul
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 20:50
  • 4
    @Catija, I believe you, I hadn't even heard of IPS before the blog post (to be honest the idea of getting relationship advice off anonymous people on the internet seems equivalent to anonymous medical advice...!). What I was getting at is that you put "not being nice" on SO in the same category of "these attitudes" as trolling, Holocaust-denial, and anti-semitism. Some people here were refuting the OPs assertion that there was any conflation of these categories in the blog post. I cited your post as an example that at least in one case things were phrased in such a way as to imply the same.
    – Benjol
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 6:15
6

Does Stack Exchange really want to conflate newbies with women/people of color?

As for that blog post, I personally had my own opinions about it, that were not favourable when they wanted to post it, and I made that clear. As the blog was specifically about women, coloured people and new comers, as a female programmer, I believe I have a right to have a voice about it, as I have stayed on the site, despite not understanding the culture much of the time. The reason I don't understand it, it's predominantly male, as is the programming industry, that is not actually the fault of this site and I have poor people skills, so I misunderstand things and take them literally.

This is what we need. Site responsibility and personal responsibility and that applies to every person who reads this. It applies to every single person who uses the site, new or not, whatever your skin tone or gender.

If you choose to have social responsibility, that's your choice, and it's not mandatory for the site, but denigrating people who want to improve this world is also not OK.

As far as I can see there's a blurring of two separate issues here.

  1. The world is full of bigotry and there are marginalised people everywhere. Stack Overflow is not responsible for fixing this, but it does have a wide influence and the potential to be a force of good. (This is also where the tenuous and explosive debate about positive discrimination raises its ugly head, but I'm not going there right now.)

  2. Stack Overflow has a very small bunch of users who are regularly rude to new people.

Bigotry based on race, gender, religion, anything is bigger than Stack Overflow and beyond the scope of the site to fix. It's part of our ethos that we do not allow these things. If you see it, flag it.

The one thing that we have been allowing is pile on in the comments and a small bunch of users to regularly comment around the site in sarcastic and rude manners. With the exception of people who struggle with English as a second language, this bunch of users doesn't care where you're from or who you are. By exception, as they're known to be rude to people with poor English skills.

The vast majority of users on the site are fine; it's a small, small percentage of the site who are regularly rude and kick people around in the comments. This small bunch of people who frequent their tags of choice and are regularly sarcastic and rude to newcomers, regardless of the person's race, gender, sexual preferences, skin tone, or anything else. These people are not selectively rude; they are just rude and will frequently pile on comments under a post and generally give the site a bad name.

On meta, this type of thing occurs more frequently. A, relatively, small group of users feel the need to jump in to get their point of view across, often repeating and arguing the same points over and over in the comments.

No one, no one, enjoys pile on in the comments under their post. No one, takes kindly to that type of overwhelming criticism.

Does this mean everyone can jump onto to Stack Overflow meta and cry - "Hey, Stack Overflow admits they're awful - so don't be awful to me!" and use this as a way to avoid any form of critique? No. It means simply that people are entitled to fair feedback, without being jumped upon and accused of being lazy or whatever usual accusations that are being tossed around.

If you're tired of seeing crappy questions, skip those questions and focus on the better ones. Use your votes. Stop abusing people. If you're continually pulled up for being rude or abusive perhaps stop and consider - maybe people think you're an asshat and you really do behave like you're one.

It's time for the small group of rude people to stop making the site unpleasant for everyone else. If you do not have the patience to be polite to someone, don't comment. We don't want to know how wretched you think a post is. If a post is crappy, we can all see it's crappy, except the OP. It doesn't need to be reiterated over and over in the comments.

We advise people to come to meta if there are issues and the pile on in meta is worse.

If you're worried about the quality of the site and what sort of dreadful content we might end up with, you're not helping by abusing people. Some people take time to work out how to post a decent question, and scaring them off does not help. If the post quality does not improve, they will receive post bans.

So the issue isn't what your skin tone is, your gender, your religion or whatever. It's the fact a small bunch of loudmouthed participants who make people feel unwelcome. As Tim Post said, marginalised people may be more sensitive to this type of behaviour. But from all accounts, I cannot see that it is only marginalised groups who feel Stack Overflow is unwelcoming.

As a lobbyist from way back to encourage women into programming I can say this. I never thought Stack Overflow was a specific problem in this issue; it's the IT industry generally and men and women in societies globally. There's sexism in the world! Women are sexually harassed globally. It happens. Yes, it also happens to men. As far as I can see, the vast majority of users on the site don't think this is OK. Unfortunately there is only so much the site can do to safeguard its users. I've been stalked around the Internet, including on Stack Overflow. For three reasons: I'm a woman, I'm outspoken, and I'm good at upsetting people. The last one I can work on, and the first two I'm not changing.

The issue on the site is NOT gender or colour; it's rampant, unchecked poor behaviour and a lack of intuitive question guidelines. We're always going to have poor quality posts come onto the site, and there isn't any reason to get out the pitchforks and exclaim outrage over it. Simply downvote, close vote, flag or delete vote. If you have nothing constructive to say, don't say it.

And before people carry on in the comments, read this post properly. It was a discussion about the declining numbers of women in programming and what, if anything Stack Overflow could do to improve that. It was not holding Stack Overflow responsible for the decline. There are many complex issues surrounding why marginalised people would not want to participate on the site, and, as I said before, Tim Post covers that briefly. It could take up a research paper to address it adequately.

For the record - people are not black or white - the shades between these are grey - we're all on a continuum of colour. Remember that next time you see a difference in skin tone in any direction. My bit of social responsibility

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    "As a female programmer, I believe I have a right to have a voice about it" - Sure. And as a white male programmer with a big nose, I think that everybody has the right to have a voice about it, regardless of their skin color, gender or nose size. As far as I'm concerned, this was exactly the main reason for why the blog was criticized: Things that are technically relevant for the site (newbies, guidelines, etc.) have been mixed - for whatever reason - with blatant accusations and political issues that are discussed and dissected ad nauseam, but are (or should be) completely irrelevant.
    – Marco13
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:43
  • 4
    To make this clear: I generally agree with what you said (although I'm skeptical about that lobbying thing, the discussion about that is faaar beyond the scope of the comments) : There are a few jerks who are rude, and a few people who feel intimidated by that. Both should try to reflect about that and whether or how they should change their behavior or viewpoints. But generalizing the accusation of "hostility" towards the whole community is ... well, basically as rude as the behavior of the people who are supposed to be criticized with that.
    – Marco13
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:46
  • 4
    @Marco13 yep I make it clear, it's a small percentage who give all else a bad name. That's my opinion and it's worth only that. One person's opinion.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:50
  • 2
    The opinion of ... (glances at the upvotes) ... five persons ... and counting ;-)
    – Marco13
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:51
  • 9
    I think you hit the nail on the head here. I really feel like the blog post left too little room between "women and other marginalized groups feel unwelcome" and "we (the community) are to blame". It's hard not to interpret that as "we are sexist and racist and need to change", and this has become the single focus point of discussion now. Rather, I think the message is that SO can be very unwelcoming, and already marginalized groups feel this particularly strongly. It seems obvious to me that feelings of rejection will be amplified, if you're already constantly struggling to feel included.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:23
  • 8
    I would say that, while maybe there are some small things we can do to be especially encouraging of marginalized groups, the better take away is that we can be better at welcoming everybody. If marginalized groups often feel the sting of rejection stronger than others, I would hope that the opposite might hold true, and that a gentler more welcoming on-boarding on SO would be noticed and felt all the more by somebody already struggling to feel included in this industry.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:28
  • 13
    "If you're tired of seeing crappy questions, skip those questions and focus on the better ones" - unfortunately you usually have to analyze a question for some time before realizing it's crappy. And when you do this again and again, it kind of drains your mental power and will to answer anything. I mean, skipping crappy questions is not free.
    – Evk
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 16:09
  • 1
    @Lankymart the Op being rude, doesn't give anyone else the right to be rude. It's simple stuff I honestly thought people were taught this as children. Two wrongs don't make a right
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:22
  • 9
    I don't see why you concentate on rudeness. It was not tolerated, is it not tolerated, no one defends it. I don't remember when I saw rude comment last time (besides from asker of downvoted question). Blog post in question doesn't even mention this word. People might apparently "feel unwelcome" for other reasons, for example because their question is downvoted. Post author says "It makes me sad when someone get downvoted for posting a duplicate", and that it's fine to provide answers to bad questions (thereby encouraging them). That's what I don't like.
    – Evk
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:58
  • 4
    @YvetteColomb how are you suppose to accommodate different variations of what people consider rude? Personally, this is a programming site for programmers and people should leave their own insecurities at the door. What some consider kind, others consider rude. What some consider advice, others consider as criticism.
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:08
  • 1
    @Lankymart coming up with what is rude is not that hard. There's a bunch of people who regularly insult people and it's clearly not ok. Most of us are not like that most of the time. Trust me, the bar of what is rude is not that hard to see. As for women getting sick of being called "man" or "mate" yeh - sometimes I get sick of it and snap at someone. That's pretty normal. Overall that's not rude, just presumptuous.
    – user3956566
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:58
  • 15
    Well I just read this post (medium.com/@Aprilw/suffering-on-stack-overflow-c46414a34a52) which I think is what inspired the sentence about "women and people of color" being discussed. You can see there that people can feel unwelcome because of words "clearly" and "exactly", in a context that no one can consider rude. That same person calls SO "toxic, inhumane wasteland", and insult community as a whole and its participants in many other ways. It's a pity SO is replying with "excuse me, we are indeed toxic wasteland" to such insults.
    – Evk
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:51
  • 3
    [1/2] @Evk I do get how "clearly" can be unwelcoming, even in that context: it is not about rudeness, but condescension. In the main site, I was on the receiving end of condescending comments once, while discussing with another user the merits of an answer. It was acutely irritating. I find it easy to picture how, if you add a difference of status or knowledge between the parties, condescending comments might be not just irritating but also discouraging.
    – duplode
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 4:03
  • 1
    [2/2] @Evk (FWIW, the example you mention is a mild one indeed -- there are more clear-cut ones in that post. In any case, I do think it is almost always worth it to avoid "It is clearly X", or "You should have known that X" when just "It is X" will do, including in that case.)
    – duplode
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 4:03
  • 4
    @YvetteColomb Off Topic: "not understanding the culture much of the time" - I would dearly love to see a blog post from you (or someone else) describing the details of this understanding or lack of it. What exactly is hard to understand? What is easy? It may help people on both sides of the understanding gap to bridge it.
    – user3458
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:58
-3

I think, in answer to the original question, yes separate the two matters.

As a "newbie" I think SO is a great site but once you start to ask questions it becomes a scary place. After reading the style guide and researching before I ask a question, I still get down votes. Then, to save my rep, I just end up deleting the question. If I could just get instantaneous feedback, like an anonymous comment attached to a down vote, we would save so much time and grief for everyone.

The second issue is different. Other than mildly snippy comments, I have never seen anyone being abused (perhaps they have been moderated?). And any comments I have received have been gender/race/sexual-orientation neutral. So that we can all understand the second category better (and answer questions like this), I think the original blog poster needs to supply some examples of this behavior occurring, and some kind of statistics on it's frequency, and a break down into different types of abuse. We also need to know where it occurs. I only see posted questions, not chat rooms.

-8

Some elder or experienced Stack Overflow users have been more unwelcome to new users these years than the site initially was, but usually not related to their nationality / skin color / accent / gender (you don't know these properties on an online community, unless they tell it themselves), which, as a consequence, made people think that the entire site is not welcoming.

That blog just inadvertently told the truth, added those "racism" or controversial words / catrgories (which is bad on its own standing as a public blog, and unilaterally "represents" the Stack Overflow when it in fact has received a very negative reputation from the real community), and unfortunately attracted all the fire and the flame.

Adding categories like "women", "people with color" etc. in a totally unrelated context makes the blog itself offensive, not us, the community. Who cares about your gender and skin color on Stack Overflow? We only care if you ask good questions or ask garbages.

Delete that blog or remove the controversial / potentially offensive or toxic part of the blog, and this issue is done.

3
  • 4
    I like this answer, not sure why it's down-voted. The blog is basically saying that non-whites like myself are incapable of contributing in a reasonable fashion, following the existing rules, and that magnanimous white men like the author will shine on me from above and give me charity. -_- That being said, SE definitely IS quite toxic (but not for anything social justice related). SO and MSE are mostly ok, but some others... just ... wow. IMO the main issues are closing clearly on-topic, clear questions as being off-topic/unclear/missing context. Nobody knows each other's race or gender! Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 20:18
  • @user3658307: Which Stack Exchange sites (for example)? I thought it was mostly about Stack Overflow (it is the only Stack Exchange site the initiator of all this talks about), but you say Stack Overflow is OK. Commented Nov 14, 2019 at 11:23
  • Putting aside the point that properly curating content and informing people of policy ought not be cast as "unwelcoming": someone who starts out with a true statement and then falsely characterizes it by "adding those... controversial words" is no longer telling the truth. Commented Oct 19, 2023 at 19:11
-20

You're making that mistake where you're confusing being bad at code and reading documentation with being a garbage person or someone who doesn't care. Some people start at level 0 and literally can't understand all the other resources. Stack Exchange the company still maintains this site is for those people too even if the community doesn't.

As for the POC stuff, more minorities are starting to code so it logically follows that there will be a greater percentage of minorities in the "new user" category than their used to be; making new users feel uncomfortable will make a significant number of minorities feel uncomfortable.

It's not the thought that counts here. It has nothing to do about your personal character, that's not what this is about. No one cares if you downvote users because you think they're women or POC. What people care about is if your downvoting makes minority groups uncomfortable to an unreasonable degree. It's not the thought that counts here. It has nothing to do about your personal character.

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    How are you conflating downvoting with the whole welcoming movement? They are two entirely separate aspects.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 15:35
  • 1
    @fbueckert Hey babe, fancy seeing you here <3. Op mentioned that their reason for downvoting had nothing to do with bigotry. I answered that it's not intent that matters, it's all the outcomes of your actions. I believe now that the community is trying to swing it's worth flag around. What's funny is that this is exactly how I'd expect a minority issue that the majority doesn't agree with to go. I'm glad Stack Exchange is choosing to go the minority rights route. I hope they go with the data backed route at some point too. There should be more stats about this.
    – user5451396
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 15:41
  • 10
    If outcomes are all that matter, then...helping millions upon millions of programmers shows SO is extremely successful at what it does. So we should be doubling down on the quality curation to make it even better. But, again, downvotes have nothing to do with friendliness, nor welcoming.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 15:45
  • 4
    @Steve: You might want to ask your coworker if he refuses to use SO because 1) people here are assholes or because 2) people are assholes to him because he's POC. The point Nicole is arguing against is that he thinks that the problem is the (1) and not (2).
    – BDL
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 15:54
  • 9
    'What people care about is if your downvoting makes minority groups uncomfortable to an unreasonable degree.' - But again, when I down-vote a question if it somehow turns out the asker is from a minority group and they feel "uncomfortable", should I be obliged to change my down-vote? Absolutely not. I'm voting purely on what I see. I don't (and can safely say majority of the community don't) go digging through a posters history to see if they are from a minority group.
    – Script47
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 16:08
  • 3
    No. I truly don't think it is "unreasonable" if people are giving their time to help you out. The truth is, the blame is solely going on to one side rather than being distributed evenly. Sure, there are some racist tools out there but there are just as many people (if not more) who are refuse after multiple questions to show any effort. But to say that those racist tools make up the majority of the community and that their is some sort of pattern with minorities getting picked on here is nothing but ludicrous.
    – Script47
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 16:40
  • 3
    As for 'That easily discourages hobbyists and puts people trying to code stuff up for work in an extremely over stressed state.', as harsh as this may sound it honestly isn't the job of the people of this community to tiptoe around peoples delicate sensibilities. If your question is bad, people should be able to tell you that constructively and if you really want an answer, you should be willing to improve your question. BTW, I never once mentioned any manuals, the least I expect is an attempt at writing coherent questions and some code with the error in question. Is that truly too much?
    – Script47
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 16:43
  • 2
    There's a divide between being welcoming, and content curation. The two do not intertwine. Welcoming is about not leaving snarky comments. Bad posts are bad posts. Who posts them is utterly irrelevant. Curation says they deserve a downvote, so they get downvoted. Exactly as it should be.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 16:55
  • 3
    Kinda like people dump no effort questions here, don't read the information put in front of them, and actively ignore all attempts at clarification? But we're the problem? Respect goes both ways; showing no effort yourself doesn't respect the site. Actively ignoring all the information at your fingertips goes from disrespect to almost insulting. Being hostile on top of that is just icing on the crap cake.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 17:06
  • 4
    This all points to a fundamental disconnect between expectations and reality. New users see SE as a help desk, where they can dump their problem and get free help. Curators see it as a place to build a repository of knowledge, so that we can help many many people in the future. SE needs to do a better job of setting those expectations, yes, but new users also need to invest some effort themselves in learning about the site. Whatever happened to lurking for a bit and reading the rules before posting?
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 17:14
  • 2
    Yeah, it takes me no time at all. But my time ain't unlimited. If users don't have the time or knowledge, tell me why I should spend my valuable time helping them. Especially if because they don't have the time; that's what highly paid consultants are for. SO requires a minimum bar to participate; if you can't meet that bar...well, there isn't much we can do about that. Users need to invest enough of themselves to hit that bar. We really can't meet them in the middle if they can't cross their own bridge.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 17:17
  • 7
    We can help, but teaching basic programming is far too broad to be feasible. That's what post secondary education is for, not us.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 17:19
  • 5
    No. SO is not for everyone. It's for enthusiast and professional programmers. Which requires meeting the minimum bar we currently have. It's definitely not for people who don't know how to debug their own code. We just can't teach that.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 17:22
  • 2
    @Steve you missed the point where we wrote the same thing just in different order. The key is everyone who meets that minimum requirement fits the site. I made that clear in my comment as did fbueckert. And that is exactly what I mean, if you've used this site or rather if you've read through the guidelines you'll instantly know if this site is for you or not.
    – Script47
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 17:24
  • 4
    I think I've spent enough time trying to argue with you about SO's scope. We're starting to go in circles, so I think I've had enough. You feel SO should be something it's not. Until you accept SO for what it is...you're going to be pretty frustrated with it. Good day.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 25, 2018 at 17:25
-25

There's an intersection at which we're very certain that groups of people who experience discrimination or other effects of marginalization in life do not engage with Stack Overflow because our perceived lack of empathy is often exacerbated by their own (typically awful) personal experiences. These are 'newbies', they just never do anything but read.

If you are generally treated equitably, in accordance with those that you presume to be your peers, you're going to be a bit more tolerant and accepting of "internet assholery" in your life because you don't experience discrimination very often in the real world. Imagine if every moment of every day that you worked was like someone making fun of you in comments while they tell you that you're wrong or are incapable or incompetent.

To those that do, our snark and perceived lack of emotional maturity is enough to make some people say that's just not a place for me, I don't need any more of that than I already have. And that's why we see our engagement levels plummeting while our read-only traffic steadily increases - duh, because other efforts to make the industry more inclusive are actually starting to work, yet we're not catching up.

That's not to say that we need to treat people with kid gloves, but we have to (as noted in the blog post) move to being more actively welcoming and away from 'don't be (a vague interpretation of) an asshole'. Because the latter isn't working; it's not doing enough to convince new users that we're worth the effort of even trying. We'll treat people like grown-ups, and expect them to be open to criticism that a polite adult audience would have to offer.

But dammit, we really need to come to a consistent application of 'polite', and understanding how unconscious bias can put rudeness right in plain view but only seen by and hurtful to some is a massively important undertaking on the way to that goal.

If we don't keep up, we're little more than an antiquated relic of grouchy nerds that watched the world pass them by. That's ... not something we find acceptable from a moral, social or business perspective.

We can't give specific data about how bad this effect is beyond estimating while looking at our drop in engagement, which has been compounding year over year -- it's not easy to document a negative. But what we can do is listen to people, and we have, and we have no reason nor right to tell them to justify their feelings or 'back them up'.

Look, I know it was uncomfortable seeing us own up to so much bad stuff all at once very publicly, I know you have a deep personal stake in the amazing amount of progress that we've made since tackling our original shared enemy of crappy information that was often gated behind a paywall.

And nobody failed at that goal, we've created a resource that's so great, people that feel left out continue to bang their heads against it trying to be a part of it. But what that tells us is we're not yet great, not without them, and until we have them fully identifying as being a part of us, we're just marginally better than horrible. Marginally better than horrible isn't great.

We want to be great, and we're going to fail at achieving greatness time and time again very publicly with this until we actually get it right in a way that all of you can learn from.

That's .. probably more than you expected. Thank you for your consideration in putting what must have been a thousand and one "WTFs" in one place so objectively without antagonism. We really do appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation, in fact I think that's all I'm going to be doing for the next few months.

But, make no mistake, we perceive the problem to be very, very real, and we wouldn't risk this kind of upheaval and upset if we believed it to be anything but.

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    Do you think you are approaching this from a US-centric view? For example, a dev in a non-English speaking country getting hammered for bad English on SO (one of the 'unfriendly' problems identified) is not necessarily someone discriminated against on a daily basis. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:29
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    Is it possible that read-only traffic is increasing because the site is functioning as it should (a repository of knowledge) and thus more and more people are finding the answer they need without having to post a question? Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:32
  • 27
    @geometrikal Reading that Medium article, It certainly felt like the writer is seeing things with US-only goggles on and it saddens me that SO is seeing things the same way for some reason. Non-English Speaking, "Minorities" (Actually there are more of us so-called POC than the White People statistically so if anything, they are the minorities), Non Americans are a huge part of SE community. SO is a global platform, not a US localized helpboard.
    – NSNoob
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:45
  • 35
    And tbh, After reading and re-reading her article and SO blog post The only objective/concrete "Problem" I can see is the snarky/sarcastic comments. I find it insulting to our already diverse user-base performing edits to fix grammar, linking newbies to help resources in comments, flagging/VTDing racist and sexist content to suggest that these things are tolerated on SO and are making people suffer. That is simply not true. Yes people can be snarky and sarcastic but some posts deserve a touch of sarcasm. For example the comment she used in her article about a guy not reading the error log
    – NSNoob
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:49
  • 56
    ... so, per the first three paragraphs, the SE position really is that treating people equally regardless of race or gender is not good enough because women and non-whites suffer from some sort of culturally-induced emotional fragility that requires them to be treated with extra-special delicateness lest they be discouraged. sigh. I'm (just barely) old enough to remember a time when the left would've criticised this sort of perspective - that white men must make a special effort to accommodate the inferiority of women and non-whites - as ugly chauvinism, which is what I consider it to be.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:52
  • 77
    @MarkAmery women and non-whites suffer from some sort of culturally-induced emotional fragility that requires them to be treated with extra-special delicateness lest they be discouraged. This is exactly the sentiment peddled by the writer and apparently shared by SE which is making me feel extremely angered. We are not fragile, we do not need the approval and encouragement of Whites to get along in our lives, We have our own history, our own culture, our own civilisations, we have nothing to be ashamed of or feel inferior to the Whites. Only thing offensive there is assuming that we do.
    – NSNoob
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:55
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    @TIm I think Mark's point is that you are saying that these already marginalized people deserve a place without ANY issue or negativity, because any of that they encounter, they will see as racism/sexism. They aren't being empowered to stand up for themselves, we are just lowering everyone else to make sure they are "as high" as everyone. I know this isn't your intent. But I can see how it can be interpreted that way
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:04
  • 19
    @TimPost I admit that my comment frames what you've said in the ugliest possible way, so I can understand you feeling that it no longer resembles what you said, so I will indeed try again. In your first few paragraphs, you describe the manner in which the SO community behaves towards newbies (our "internet assholery", as you put it) as being uniquely damaging and discouraging to "groups of people who experience discrimination", and that in order to be inclusive we must change those behaviors. In doing so, you are fairly explicitly saying that what what a white man would... [1/2]
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:48
  • 26
    ... [2/2] tolerate as simply harsh, (and perhaps nasty or unfair) professional criticism from peers is somehow intolerable to these "groups" (which I take to be women and non-white people) - that these groups suffer from some fragility that prevents them from participating equally in a space where mean things might be said. You think that is a criticism of an aspect of our culture, but to those who like the culture, it is instead an insult to those minority groups; to @NSNoob above, this post reads as a claim that people of his race lack the robustness to function here.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:48
  • 8
    @TylerH But the two are tied together closely. Not understanding biases you don't even know you have cause you to be rude in ways you (and other people with a similar bias) don't even notice. Rude comments can be as 'nice' as "Hey thanks bro, that was exactly what I needed" thus implying that yet someone else assumed that a competent engineer must also be a man. See what I'm getting at?
    – user50049
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:54
  • 15
    @TimPost please post "simply not engage with someone that didn't put enough effort " as separate post if that is new site's policy. It would be much better if this is spelled out clearly and explicitly rather than hidden in comments. Making it into separate post would also let you clarify what actions (if any) are expected now for zero-effort posts. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:48
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    Let's be clear Lack of emotional maturity is not being able to take objective criticism without spiralling into a quagmire of self-doubt and despair. If someone posts a terrible question, they get brief, specific feedback - not a full paragraph of emotional padding and affirmation followed by brief specific feedback. This is because we expect emotional maturity from users, not that we lack emotional maturity.
    – J...
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:29
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    @TimPost "simply not engage with someone that didn't put enough effort", which then leads to people complaining about not getting feedback with down votes or close votes. This way we simply can't win. And to make things worse, rudeness is pretty much a social-culturally influenced metric, which means that something which is perfectly acceptable for a Dutch person like me, might be considered unnecessarily rude by an American. So a sender may not have meant something as rude, but simply short and to the point, while the receiver interprets it as rude. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 21:18
  • 17
    @TimPost the undeniable reality is that the most underrepresented and mistreated group on SO are non-native speakers, and this is true morally, numerically and in any possible sense. Can you explain to me why I, as a foreign user, should be expected to making SO a more welcoming place for US minorities, when SO does not care about, say the millions of Indians, Italians or Chinese that get a terrible experience because of their poor English skills? I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's real.
    – Sklivvz
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 6:33
  • 9
    Sorry, Tim. I usually take what you say in great regard, but this post (and the current stance being taken by this site) is nonsense. When it comes to the point where asking people to provide specific details is considered rude or hostile or racist, it's becoming ridiculous. I have a suggestion that will solve the problem: Remove the ability to comment again, revert to the old days where votes (whether down or to close) were the only way to communicate, and then tell us how that is more welcoming to new users than being able to ask for clarification in comments is currently.
    – Ken White
    Commented May 5, 2018 at 2:36
-33

Thing is, SO is hostile. (Not all the time, but too much of the time.) That hostility is often justified as being in response to "terrible questions" (and there are indeed plenty of terrible questions), but it's pretty indistinguishable from the hostility routinely displayed against perfectly good questions which the responder merely feels are "too basic" or "not professional" or otherwise beneath him.

The hostility also arises from a set of habits that go back to Usenet (and perhaps before): there's no such thing as "rude" or "polite"; all that matters is accuracy. If someone is wrong, you correct them as quickly and bluntly as possible. If someone is wrong on something so basic they really shouldn't have had to ask, you point this out as well, and again bluntly. It doesn't matter if they feel insulted by any of this, because of course there's no insult intended, it's their problem if they feel insulted, the answer was after all perfectly factual, and unencumbered with unnecessary fluff like being "nice". (See also this week's xkcd.)

But of course being polite does matter. Taking care not to (seem to) berate or belittle someone who's unsure of themselves does matter. These things aren't "unnecessary fluff"; they're part of basic human decency.

The people who are lambasting the blog post as being mere "political correctness" (and they're getting upvoted, so they're not alone) are missing the point that the canonical excuses -- "I'm not being insulting, I'm just stating pure technical facts" -- really work only for the privileged class. The less sure of yourself you are, the less confident you are (the farther from that privileged class you are), the harder it is to believe it when someone says "don't take this personally", and the easier it is to truly feel insulted, to the detriment of all.


Addendum: when I said "privileged class" I was not referring to the traditional, white male class in broader society; I was instead referring to what I might call hyper-rational übergeeks in online communities. (And, FWIW, I couldn't dispute the charge if someone labeled me as one of those.)

And of course no one is suggesting that newbies don't have to (or can't) follow rules, or that we all have to bend over backwards to avoid offending any newbie, or that the problem is all with the regulars or that all of them are somehow "bad", or anything artificially extremified like that. (If you're retreating to any of those artificial extremes and constructing straw men there, I suggest that you might be avoiding confronting the real issues.)

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    I have yet to see a single view that says that SO is not good enough that backs it up with examples.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 20:57
  • 8
    i don't disagree that people are feeling insulted, and maybe even feeling discriminated against. but... the simple fact of the matter is the majority of the time they are mis-interpreting what's being presented to them. Maybe we can help resolve that by changing the way it's presented, but if we keep trying to claim the problem is the people answering questions or moderating the site... this isn't going to get any further than just pointing fingers.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 21:12
  • 18
    "really work only for the privileged class" That sounds somewhat insulting to the non-privileged classes out there. That they can't be expected to live within a strict set of rules, that everyone needs to be very, very careful not to be in the slightest bit curt to them. That they're incapable of understanding that downvotes and close votes aren't personal and shouldn't be taken as such. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 21:56
  • 12
    The "privileged class" you're referring to (Western, especially American, white geeks) has until quite recently been really rather less privileged than the majority of the population, as you can easily see from the fact that the name of the class is a slur. (A slur that is in fact still used today as such.) The majority of the presumed most-privileged class in America (Wealthy Anglo-Saxon Protestant males) have been and still are quite unwilling to accept this kind of extremely blunt technical communication. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 2:22
  • 3
    Add to that the various classic minorities that do very well with this technical language, and it starts to look like there's a lot of confusion, and the simplistic model of strictly nested classes of social privilege breaks down. (Even "intersectionality" doesn't help much, since it assumes that "un-privilege" comes from the cross-product of all the various minorities an individual belongs to, but here we see that some of those appear to contribute the opposite sign from what the theory would suggest.) Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 2:25
  • 5
    All people I remember being insulted (and I'm quite actively participating) are people who close\downvote bad questions while (relatively) politely explaining why. They are of course insulted by posters of said quesions.
    – Evk
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 9:31
  • 8
    @EVK it's okay. New posters don't have to be nice. That is apparently just for us. Look around. People are already using this blog post to go 'you disagree with me or did anything negative on my post. YOU ARE MONSTERS'. It'll take a lot of time for users to stop bashing all user-moderators by using that blog...
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 10:47
  • 6
    So what? If you go to McDonalds and order a Whopper, they’ll tell you no. You might even take that personally. What do you expect McDonalds to do about that exactly?
    – Clive
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 13:27
  • 2
    I’ll stick with the original. Someone turned up somewhere, wanted something, was told they can’t have it because it’s not sold there, and took that personally. Why would anyone care?
    – Clive
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 13:42
  • 4
    Sigh. If you can’t/won’t back up your assertions, don’t waste everyone’s time by posting. The internet has enough baseless opinion on it already.
    – Clive
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 15:01
  • 3
    I really don’t see the point to that, you’ve already told me you’re not going to discuss what I want to discuss so let’s just agree to disagree and move on. Have a nice weekend :)
    – Clive
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 15:10
  • 3
    @Elin downvotes on meta express exactly this - that you disagree with what is stated in answer.
    – Evk
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 12:30
  • 4
    @Elin: "Why can't people just respond without trying to hide the posts they disagree with?" Because: 1) You should be able to disagree without wanting to have a conversation about it. 2) It would be functionally impossible for (for example) 48 separate people to each post a comment and still have a useful comment thread. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:36
  • 2
    @SteveSummit: ... I don't understand how your comment relates to what I said. Everyone can think that you're wrong without thinking "There is nothing wrong with this community; any problems are elsewhere." Disputing a person's position is not equivalent to taking up the opposite of that person's position. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 23:35
  • 2
    @MichaelKay Can't speak for others by I downvoted the original answer because it looked like it was continuing the blog post and promoting a political agenda. Now when I saw Steve explained what he meant by "privileged class" I removed my downvote. Still don't agree with it enough to upvote and he's wrong about me and my answer. I'm not dismissing claims that SO has problems, just concentrating on what's most important to me. The blog decided to use those problems to promote a political agenda as long as this happens, fighting the politicization of SO is the only thing I care about.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:17
-71

Indeed, merging these two cases brings with it the implication that SE thinks that "women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups" are responsible for a lot of the garbage questions that routinely attract the ire of the populace. Is that an inference that SE wants to make?

There is no implication. There is a list of problems to address, which share in common the fact that people from different backgrounds feel unwelcome. SE wants to be a welcoming place, so they want to fix that. You are the one infering. The blogs post says "newbies and women feel unwelcome" and you reply with "why do you say all newbies are women?", or "are you implying women are responsible for garbage questions"?

Solutions for the anti-newbie problem are going to be very different from the solutions to the other problem.

You seem pretty confident about that, and I am not sure why. The problems are however close to each other because they are related to how people are treated when they use SE.

All the gender-neutral writing in the world won't make you respect somebody who refuses to read documentation.

Where did you get the idea that this is what the blog post is about?

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    He didn't say that the implication was "all newbies are women", the perceived implication is "women ask garbage questions" and that is indeed one way to interpret that blog post.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 9:49
  • 3
    Because in the tech world as soon as people hear that there is disproportionate impact they immediately stop thinking rationally and reading carefully and go into very simplistic thinking mode e.g. the kind of misreading that is made here. I prefer to assume that it is unintentional and emotional rather than deliberately malicious but I tend to have rose colored glasses.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:02
  • @Elin no; when people hear claims of "disproportionate impact" they rationally respond to an attempt at political chastisement which is just like the others they have experienced countless times before. There is no misreading involved here. There is only so much credit that can be extended before one concludes, after the Nth time seeing the same "social justice" phenomenon, that the argument is presented purely in bad faith. It is not an "assumption" of malice; it is a conclusion based on prior experience with others making the same arguments and flying the same political banners. Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 1:06

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