Timeline for Does Stack Exchange really want to conflate newbies with women/people of color?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
41 events
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May 1, 2018 at 17:58 | comment | added | user3458 | @YvetteColomb Off Topic: "not understanding the culture much of the time" - I would dearly love to see a blog post from you (or someone else) describing the details of this understanding or lack of it. What exactly is hard to understand? What is easy? It may help people on both sides of the understanding gap to bridge it. | |
May 1, 2018 at 17:07 | comment | added | duplode | @Evk The thing is, I don't think there are just two groups. I believe it is worth it drawing a line between lost causes and salvageable questions; between users acting in bad faith and users willing to understand and respect what we are trying to achieve here. | |
May 1, 2018 at 16:12 | comment | added | Evk | @duplode I don't agree with your (2), but that doesn't matter indeed. Essentially, group A hurts group B feelings by wasting their time with "bad" (against the rules, lazy, and so on) questions, and sometimes group B responds by hurting feelings of group A. If we are going to tolerate group A in non-extreme cases, shouldn't we tolerate group B in non-extreme cases (such as usage of "clearly" in arguable ways)? Extreme cases, such as explicit rudeness, is already not tolerated. | |
May 1, 2018 at 13:22 | comment | added | duplode | [3/3] @Evk (3) Also, the examples in the post are worth considering independently of how well April's framing of them works. I'd even say that if anything comes close to contradictory, it is the tendency of Meta to offhandedly dismiss everything in the post because it feels attacked. | |
May 1, 2018 at 13:19 | comment | added | duplode | [2/3] @Evk (2) On the tone of the post, I don't think it contradicts itself. The author is trying to forcefully drive a point home. At a minimum, the post is a significant improvement over the Twitter storm that preceded it: April (a) articulated her case a way that a tangle of 280 characters posts doesn't allow for; (b) has all but recognised that headline-inducing tweet was rhetorical hyperbole; and (c) doesn't regard Stack Overflow as an irredeemable force for evil. Her claim that she didn't engage in "name-calling, personal attacks, and profanity" over the whole thing seems accurate. | |
May 1, 2018 at 13:17 | comment | added | duplode | [1/3] @Evk (1) Sensitivity is not an one-dimensional scale. Perhaps it isn't those people are "that" sensitive, but that, for various reasons, you and them react differently to a specific kind of comment. | |
May 1, 2018 at 11:03 | comment | added | Evk | @duplode I fail to see a problem in this comment anyway, maybe because I'm not quite sensible and I just cannot understand that sensible people who are offended by the mentioned coment. And what do you think about overall tone of the post? Doesn't overall tone contradicts its message? | |
May 1, 2018 at 4:17 | comment | added | duplode | @YvetteColomb I should also add this is a great answer. Your point about responsibility is really important. Not blame, but responsibility; and not from one side or the other, but from everyone. | |
May 1, 2018 at 4:09 | comment | added | user3956566 | @duplode thank you thank you thank you so much for making these points. This whole topic is draining and it's good to have a balance in the arguments, than the seesaw being weighed down on one side. | |
May 1, 2018 at 4:03 | comment | added | duplode | [2/2] @Evk (FWIW, the example you mention is a mild one indeed -- there are more clear-cut ones in that post. In any case, I do think it is almost always worth it to avoid "It is clearly X", or "You should have known that X" when just "It is X" will do, including in that case.) | |
May 1, 2018 at 4:03 | comment | added | duplode | [1/2] @Evk I do get how "clearly" can be unwelcoming, even in that context: it is not about rudeness, but condescension. In the main site, I was on the receiving end of condescending comments once, while discussing with another user the merits of an answer. It was acutely irritating. I find it easy to picture how, if you add a difference of status or knowledge between the parties, condescending comments might be not just irritating but also discouraging. | |
Apr 30, 2018 at 21:16 | comment | added | user3956566 | @Evk it's been a long unravelling issue and the latest twitters posts are just a part of it. | |
Apr 30, 2018 at 20:48 | comment | added | user692942 | @Evk I especially like the comments in that article, especially one that highlights this tweet. | |
Apr 30, 2018 at 12:51 | comment | added | Evk | Well I just read this post (medium.com/@Aprilw/suffering-on-stack-overflow-c46414a34a52) which I think is what inspired the sentence about "women and people of color" being discussed. You can see there that people can feel unwelcome because of words "clearly" and "exactly", in a context that no one can consider rude. That same person calls SO "toxic, inhumane wasteland", and insult community as a whole and its participants in many other ways. It's a pity SO is replying with "excuse me, we are indeed toxic wasteland" to such insults. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 20:00 | comment | added | user3956566 | @Evk I've always thought the bar was low in how people pile on in the comments, especially on meta, given that's the reception any one has when they post on the site, that's where the issue of people feeling the site is hostile is stemming from. Separate to that is the issue of poor content. It's still not an excuse to be rude to people. The whole point of the blog is that people feel SO is hostile and this is borne out of comments, posts and chat. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 19:58 | comment | added | user3956566 | @Lankymart coming up with what is rude is not that hard. There's a bunch of people who regularly insult people and it's clearly not ok. Most of us are not like that most of the time. Trust me, the bar of what is rude is not that hard to see. As for women getting sick of being called "man" or "mate" yeh - sometimes I get sick of it and snap at someone. That's pretty normal. Overall that's not rude, just presumptuous. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 19:08 | comment | added | user692942 | @YvetteColomb how are you suppose to accommodate different variations of what people consider rude? Personally, this is a programming site for programmers and people should leave their own insecurities at the door. What some consider kind, others consider rude. What some consider advice, others consider as criticism. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 19:02 | comment | added | user692942 | @YvetteColomb all those points are valid. My concern is how “rude” is different things to different people and different cultures. For example saw someone comment on meta about being called “mate” when they are female, I was in disbelief because I know many people men and women which call each other “mate”, so to me it’s quite common and not “rude”. But for this person it was obviously upsetting enough they used it as an example of rudeness on the site. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 18:58 | comment | added | Evk | I don't see why you concentate on rudeness. It was not tolerated, is it not tolerated, no one defends it. I don't remember when I saw rude comment last time (besides from asker of downvoted question). Blog post in question doesn't even mention this word. People might apparently "feel unwelcome" for other reasons, for example because their question is downvoted. Post author says "It makes me sad when someone get downvoted for posting a duplicate", and that it's fine to provide answers to bad questions (thereby encouraging them). That's what I don't like. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 18:44 | comment | added | user3956566 | @Lankymart just saw the second part of your question - yes I even say men can also be sexually harassed. Either way it's totally unacceptable and in no way a problem specific to this site - it's a global issue. I honestly think that blog made a mash of all the issues.. it's only helped to confuse things. The my opinion and not worth more than that. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 18:42 | comment | added | user3956566 | @Evk part of the issue is - if users are feeling burnt out - take a break from it - just do not comment if you cannot handle it well. The issue of garbage on the site, is something that will always be there - I'm not saying it's not real - it is real, it doesn't give us the right to be rude to people. Perhaps if users felt more empowered to removing low quality questions it would help. Also remember i don't think it's the bulk of the community that is the problem. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 18:39 | comment | added | user3956566 | @Lankymart the point of the article is that people are not feeling welcomed, ergo the focus on the new comer's perspective. As for people's behaviour, a rude newcomer is shooed off the site, what is concerning is when the person starts off ok and the community is rude - often resulting in the newcomer being rude also. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 18:32 | comment | added | user692942 | @YvetteColomb I wasn’t suggesting that. My point is both yourself and others seem happy to place the blame solely on those who give up their time to help, even when that is met with derision. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 18:28 | comment | added | Evk | I didn't say it takes long time, just that it takes time (which of course accumulates the more bad questions there is). And not all bad questions are immediately obvious, one can provide quite a lengthy description without actual content. And it takes not only time to read and try to understand it, only to realize it was useless. Finally, I don't advocate for rudness. I'm just not welcoming initiatives leading to even more bad questions, and I don't agree with cited statement. Handling bad questions, especially in current amounts, is not as easy for answerers as you think. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 18:22 | comment | added | user3956566 | @Lankymart the Op being rude, doesn't give anyone else the right to be rude. It's simple stuff I honestly thought people were taught this as children. Two wrongs don't make a right | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 18:19 | comment | added | user692942 | @YvetteColomb what about the OP being rude? It cuts both ways and it’s entirely unfair to pigeonhole the community like this. Talking about Sexual harressment of Women, you that Men can be sexually harrassed as well? | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 18:08 | comment | added | user3956566 | @Evk how you spend your time is up to you. So free or not, also it's a no brainer to recognise a crappy question. If you're spending a long time on a question to realise it's crappy, I don't know what to advise.. but again it's up to you how you spend your time and if it takes you a long time, it's still no excuse to be rude to the OP. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 16:09 | comment | added | Evk | "If you're tired of seeing crappy questions, skip those questions and focus on the better ones" - unfortunately you usually have to analyze a question for some time before realizing it's crappy. And when you do this again and again, it kind of drains your mental power and will to answer anything. I mean, skipping crappy questions is not free. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 14:35 | history | edited | Peter Mortensen | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Fourth iteration.
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Apr 29, 2018 at 14:30 | history | edited | Peter Mortensen | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Third iteration. [<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/loudmouthed#Adjective> (its = possessive, it's = "it is" or "it has". See for example <http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Its-and-It%27s>.]
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Apr 29, 2018 at 14:28 | comment | added | user229044 Mod | I would say that, while maybe there are some small things we can do to be especially encouraging of marginalized groups, the better take away is that we can be better at welcoming everybody. If marginalized groups often feel the sting of rejection stronger than others, I would hope that the opposite might hold true, and that a gentler more welcoming on-boarding on SO would be noticed and felt all the more by somebody already struggling to feel included in this industry. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 14:24 | history | edited | Peter Mortensen | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Second iteration.
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Apr 29, 2018 at 14:23 | comment | added | user229044 Mod | I think you hit the nail on the head here. I really feel like the blog post left too little room between "women and other marginalized groups feel unwelcome" and "we (the community) are to blame". It's hard not to interpret that as "we are sexist and racist and need to change", and this has become the single focus point of discussion now. Rather, I think the message is that SO can be very unwelcoming, and already marginalized groups feel this particularly strongly. It seems obvious to me that feelings of rejection will be amplified, if you're already constantly struggling to feel included. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 14:21 | history | edited | Peter Mortensen | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Active reading. [<http://stackoverflow.com/legal/trademark-guidance> (the last section)]. Expanded.
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Apr 29, 2018 at 13:51 | comment | added | Marco13 | The opinion of ... (glances at the upvotes) ... five persons ... and counting ;-) | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 13:51 | history | edited | user3956566 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 76 characters in body
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Apr 29, 2018 at 13:50 | comment | added | user3956566 | @Marco13 yep I make it clear, it's a small percentage who give all else a bad name. That's my opinion and it's worth only that. One person's opinion. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 13:46 | comment | added | Marco13 | To make this clear: I generally agree with what you said (although I'm skeptical about that lobbying thing, the discussion about that is faaar beyond the scope of the comments) : There are a few jerks who are rude, and a few people who feel intimidated by that. Both should try to reflect about that and whether or how they should change their behavior or viewpoints. But generalizing the accusation of "hostility" towards the whole community is ... well, basically as rude as the behavior of the people who are supposed to be criticized with that. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 13:46 | comment | added | user3956566 | @Marco13 considering the blog clearly states it's about women, coloured people and new comers, as one of those groups, yes I have a right to speak up. So don't muddy that - white men with big noses are not being singled out. ;) It's a huge area and SO needs to define what they feel ethically responsible for, as such a large site. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 13:43 | comment | added | Marco13 | "As a female programmer, I believe I have a right to have a voice about it" - Sure. And as a white male programmer with a big nose, I think that everybody has the right to have a voice about it, regardless of their skin color, gender or nose size. As far as I'm concerned, this was exactly the main reason for why the blog was criticized: Things that are technically relevant for the site (newbies, guidelines, etc.) have been mixed - for whatever reason - with blatant accusations and political issues that are discussed and dissected ad nauseam, but are (or should be) completely irrelevant. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 13:19 | history | answered | user3956566 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |