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This message was written to Stack Overflow support. I wanted to post it here in Meta to get the community's response as well. It's a little scatterbrained because I'm pretty tilted, but I wanted to write it up before I became too discouraged and swept my feelings under the mat.

Dear StackOverflow,

I want to contribute on your website, but I experience gender-exclusive language on your site almost every day. I keep a positive attitude about it and still provide helpful answers, but I feel it's unfair to leave such language completely unrecognized. Moderators seem to be burying the issue, making it impossible for me to effect change amongst my peers. What should I do?

Sincerely,
naomik


This question is not addressed by Should I remove 'fluff' when editing questions?. I am asking what I can do to not feel so powerless when it comes to combating sexist language on SO.

I don't expect Stack Overflow to be a forum for societal issues, but as a female in a male-dominated industry, it can be very challenging facing gender-exclusive language and mindsets on a daily basis. I think I keep a pretty level head when I've encountered such language. I'll usually reply with some tongue-in-cheek remark to prompt others to think about the language they use when addressing their colleagues or the community on SO. Yeah, I get that it's off-topic, but it's so ingrained in user language that it often goes by completely undetected - both by the people writing with gender-exclusive language and people reading it. I write to support today to let you know that I'm officially offended - which is remarkably difficult to do. Not because someone used gender-exclusive language, but because a moderator buried it to make it look like nothing happened.

Context: The question started with: "I know this is going to be easy for you guys ..." - my answer started with "This would've been easier if I was a boy ..." via: PHP Arrays: Grouping, Sum

meagar removed the gender-exclusive language from the question and my playful remark in my answer. This effectively removes my voice as a user. I know SO is not my bulletin board for social justice, but I wasn't exactly picking fights with the OP over the matter. These aren't paragraphs of text or bickering arguments. This is natural language that people use when they're speaking to the public. I was only raising a pinkie finger of awareness. meagar's actions trivialize my efforts and bury a serious issue that I encounter very frequently. This isn't helping women that are challenged by this issue - in fact, the opposite is true: meagar's actions have harmed me. I am now isolated and the only party that feels the negative impact of the event. I kept a good attitude about the OP's language and still offered a very helpful reply. The single-sentence acknowledgement of the OP's language might be just enough to help other readers be aware of the issue without being disruptive to the content of the answer. But now I get to experience gender-exclusive language and be the only one to know it happened.

Here's how I get to see it: User solicits help of of male community. User receives help from 30k reputation female user. Female user nudges that non-males can answer too. SO moderators edit her answer to leave the 99% of the text that serves SO's purpose. Male user got what he came for. Female user discriminated against and silenced. All future visitors blind/ignorant to the abuse.

After my voice was taken away from me, I attempted to remove my answer. I no longer wanted to be part of a discussion where I wasn't allowed to have a voice. I didn't want to contribute my effort/knowledge to a question that would not take ownership for the way I was excluded. I do not want the community to benefit at my expense. That is not fair. meagar's response to me trying to remove my answer: he threatened to suspend my account.

What planet am I on? How the hell is this acceptable? At what point does SO acknowledge the issue and support users that struggle within the SO community? I've donated thousands of hours to helping people on SO - most of which were received by very graceful/grateful people - but what does SO do for me when I need help? Threaten to suspend me??

Deleted comment thread for reference and context of exchange between meagar and me:

Screenshot of comment thread

I don't even need SO to say they have my back or fight alongside me – I'm willing to do it on my own, and tactfully too. What I cannot accept is being completely muted and sentenced to an eternal prison of gender-exclusive language.

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    Can't 'guys' be used to address both genders? I don't want to start a flame war, but isn't the word often used to describe a group or either gender? Also, meager removed both instances, in the question and the answer to remove the issue altogether
    – Andrew Li
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:00
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    @naomik: So that's why meta has felt so dry lately... we just didn't have enough of these discussions! I feel reinvigorated already!
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:06
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    @naomik "Would you address a room full of women as "guys"" i know some women who do
    – Memor-X
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:07
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    "I attempted to remove my answer" to correct you according to the edit history you didn't try to remove it but rather vandalized it
    – Memor-X
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:08
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    Another female here. I would have edited question and answer too to remove the salutation parts, not because of gender issues, but because of them being irrelevant to the problem. This has nothing to do with discrimination. Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:09
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    @naomik Deleting text in your answer and replacing with text irrelevant to the question or text that invalidates it as an answer is something I would consider vandalism
    – Andrew Li
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:10
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    I didn't vote; however, votes in this case may be taken as agreement or disagreement with the premise of your post. I personally don't think that gender has anything to do with anything on Stack Overflow, and references to gender should be edited out of posts with prejudice.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:17
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    @naomik I understand your frustration and your struggle, but gender isn't a quantifiable thing on Stack Overflow. If this were a forum of the olden days, you might be able to change something, but here your struggle is just... off-topic.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:34
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    @naomik you seem very quick to jump to the word censorship when there isn't any... You posted a non-answer that I've really no idea what message you were trying to convey (and certainly doesn't help/either degrades the point you're trying to make) so it got deleted - it's really that simple.
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:51
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    To me, it looks like you are trying to tell people "I'm a girl" and there is nothing wrong with being a girl, but your gender doesn't matter here on SO, be you boy or girl. The removal of your text had nothing to do with your gender but simply it was unnecessary text, you're the one making it into a gender issue.
    – Epodax
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 6:35
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    I'm sorry if I come of as rude, english isn't my native language and it isn't always easy to explain what I mean without coming off as rude, but I'll try none the less: You state in your question that you are aware that it's considered off-topic, and yet you are surprised that it's removed? It has nothing to do with gender, it has nothing to do with "silencing you", it was removed because it was off-topic and didn't belong here on SO, had I written / done the same as you, just reversed it with male part instead of girl, then it would STILL have been removed.
    – Epodax
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 6:47
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    This is going to be a pointless post on Meta, why? Because you don't seem intend on a debate or soloution other than "I'm right!", because everyone who doesn't seem to agree with you are just "sheep following the herd", and possibly couldn't just be disagreeing with you on their own merits? You seem to be nursing the idea that it's you VS Stack Overflow. Also, please don't pretend to say that you're not offended and that you are, "speaking for others", let people speak for themselves.
    – Epodax
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 7:50
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    I sympathize with the fundamental issue at hand - it's easy to say "we don't care about gender" when you're not addressed as "she" and with "all right, girls!", etc. all the time. I agree that the off-topic content was rightly removed from the question, though - it's what we do to everyone. To call this some sort of sexist discrimination is highly unreasonable, especially for a five-year veteran of the site who must know this happens all the time.
    – Pekka
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 8:48
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    And I wish there would be only one gender (actually, I don't) so we would not have to deal with stupidities like this. As a female I am sick and tired of other females overreacting to completely benign stuff. Get over it. If you feel the need to go around and yell "I am a girl" then first it is you the one with gender issues, and second don't be surprised if you stir up responses of any kind.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 10:41
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    @Pekka웃 and had that been the tone of the discussion i would love to try and chime in constructively. But this post is just one more rant to look at. I'd genuinely be all for a question discussing these options.
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 11:34

18 Answers 18

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I haven't seen a moderator's response on this post yet, so thought I should add my own.

We accept and welcome contribution from anyone, anywhere, anytime. You won't find anyone who would vote to close, delete, downvote or refuse to accept any of your posts because you are female, and if you do, please tell us.

However, you must understand that from an objective point of view, no one cares. The visitor from Google coming to read a question and its answer doesn't care that you're male, female or anything in between. They don't care about your pronouns or gender identity. They care about the question and the answers.

Thus, it's the job of us moderators (as well as members of the community who voluntarily give up some of their time for the sake of the site), to remove noise. Noise being bad answers (which are voted down and/or edited), bad questions (which are voted down and/or closed and/or edited) and irrelevant comments (which are flagged and deleted).

The action the moderator took against the comments on the post were to remove noise, and not to censor (as evidence, a moderator included a screenshot of all the deleted comments as they were, if we wanted to ignore, censor and pretend that things never happened, he wouldn't have done it, and I wouldn't be responding here).


As for the issue of gender exclusive language. This is the internet. People will talk and say things in whatever way they want, and educating them on these matters is not our goal. You have editing privileges, if you want to make a change, edit the question so that the language is more neutral. Answering with a passive-aggressive tone so that the asker feels embarrassed about their contribution to the site is not OK.

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    So much this. SO is about a community of information. When I answer user123345489's question not once does gender go through my head. Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 14:07
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    The moral of the story is: OP should have checked their priviliges before ranting, because they would have noticed they can edit posts.
    – SeinopSys
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 21:23
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As a female in a male dominated industry, let me give you my thoughts on the matter:

Meagar did the right thing.

That comment was just that: A comment. It provided no extra benefit to your answer, and was correctly removed. As a user with full editing privileges, you could have handled this differently from the start. You could have edited the line that bothered you out of the question, and left an edit summary explaining why you did it, rather than putting a comment in your answer's text. Maybe left a comment explaining why you did it, if you wanted to be sure the OP saw it. But adding irrelevant noise to your answer is not the way to handle this.

You may look at my low rep and account with a couple years to its name and think I just don't understand, I don't see this issue because I'm not active enough on the main site. Well, I'm not going to argue about not seeing this, but I peruse the main site a lot, even if I have no questions to ask and no answers to give. But what I do see is a lot of meta posts. I am very active on Meta, as a brief glance of my Meta profile will tell you. In my opinion, if something truly heated is going to come up, it's going to be on Meta in some form. Whether it starts here or migrates here, a lot of issues do end up coming here in some form.

There have been other posts on the gender issue. I've answered at least one of them, I've commented on a lot of the ones I saw, and my stance remains the same: Stack Overflow is not the place to handle these issues or try to educate users about these issues. Stack Overflow is for programming problems, not gender inequality issues and lessons.

Now don't get me wrong- If you see something outrageous in terms of someone being sexist, flag it immediately. The mods will handle it and clean it up. But someone using "guys" to refer to the collective users of Stack Overflow is nothing to really waste your time with. As others have addressed, "guys" is a term generally used to mean a group of people of any gender. While it may not have originally meant that, it generally does now.

If you see someone clean up noise that adds nothing to your question or answer, I urge you to take a step back before you get annoyed and think, "Does this really add anything to my post? Does it address the problem at hand?" If the answer to those questions is no, whatever was removed really doesn't need to be there.

We're writing posts for the future users with the same issues, or trying to. Don't we want them to see cleaned up and high quality contributions, not tongue-in-cheek remarks to comments that really hurt nothing?

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    Thank you +1. I must say it's sad that the "As a female..." line is necessary, in this discussion. It's like "us guys" just aren't taken seriously (or even are ignored) when we answer discussions like this.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 13:08
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    @Cerbrus Psst, I think in this case it's to point out that Kendra knows what the author is talking about.
    – Seth
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 13:09
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    @Seth It's a little of both, really. Partially to point out that I'm in a similar position, and partially because in other (not necessarily here) discussions on the matter, I've found the person with the issue more willing to listen if they realized I was female. When someone's annoyed or feeling on their own, it's reassuring to know they have someone similar in the same position to speak with, and also easier to listen to someone who's been there before or may have been there before.
    – Kendra
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 13:11
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    To give a quick list of a couple of the other gender discussions I mentioned, for those interested that hadn't seen them: Diminishing Numbers of Women in Programming and the SO Experience, which spawned Merge request, after seeing how the the other half experiences SO, and Does the SO community view itself as gender neutral?. Those were just a couple that I found easy to get to. There are a number more.
    – Kendra
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 14:45
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    Interesting to read the linked posts. I graduated BSEE in 1984 and the women were 8% of the graduating class. I'm both surprised and sorry to see the current numbers aren't dramatically higher. I work in a high school, and it seems to me the STEM issue needs to be addressed at a much younger level. I hope my grandkids aren't going to make the same observation and wonder why this hasn't shifted over the decades. Commented Sep 17, 2016 at 14:56
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Contrarily to how you might feel about these moderator actions, this has nothing to do with gender. We welcome contributions of everyone; every gender, race or sexual orientation alike. The goal of Stack Overflow is to build a Q&A site with questions and answers of the highest quality, especially aimed at future visitors with the question who arrive here via search engines. That means that elements in posts which would be perfectly normal (even part of standard politeness) in, say, an e-mail conversation or a discussion forum, can be deleted here because they draw away attention from the real problem. For reference, see this question on Meta.

If the question had started with just

I know this is going to be easy for a lot of you, but ...

it would have been removed as well. Removing this part of the question means your opening sentence

This would've been easier if I was a boy

doesn't make sense anymore, so it had to be deleted as well.

I attempted to remove my answer

Given the circumstances, it wouldn't have led to any trouble at all if you did. Granted, that wasn't possible because the answer was accepted ... Instead you vandalized your own post, and that's something that's frowned upon.

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    I understand the reasoning behind the decision. Now help me understand how I can be a part of your community.
    – Mulan
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:08
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    IMHO, the best way to contribute is writing questions and answers of high quality. A quality where you can recognize the post is from an experienced user, even if the block with your name and 30k reputation is nowhere to be seen.
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:12
  • Ok so the advice I'm getting is "ignore the fact many of your peers address you by the wrong gender. just provide them with good answers." ...
    – Mulan
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:20
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    @naomik I usually try to determine the gender by looking at their username and profile (but this can be misleading; some users use model pictures instead of their own). If in doubt, I'll use "he/she" or "they". I realize not everyone works that way. I'm never in the same situation as you, but I'd just mention something like this in a comment directed at them (and delete it if is resolved). In this particular question, you can just edit out the fluff.
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 5:28
  • Your profile picture anecdote is delightful. Thank you for sharing it. I used to use my face as a profile picture too until I received too much harassment from other users. Then I changed it to a laughing hyena face (which can still be seen on my twitter profile). After I got sick of that, I changed it to a nice beetle. Beetles are very interesting creatures. You can't tell, but the one in my picture is a guy/bro beetle. For purposes of fitting in.
    – Mulan
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 6:00
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    @naomik to be clear we (SO moderators) take harassment very seriously when it is brought to our attention. I'm all for fixing pointless use of gendered pronouns and challenging assumptions that might well be wrong, but not at the expense of reducing the quality of the questions/answers. Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 7:31
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    I usually do the same thing as Glorfindel when figuring out how to adress someone, as I'm sure most people do. Maybe its just that I'm a guy but it would never occur to me to take offense if someone used the wrong pronoun to adress me, since its so inconsequential.
    – Magisch
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 7:50
  • When I suggest edits, asides from fixups to formatting, grammar, spelling and punctuation - I will always remove anything irrelevant, I don't care about the gender - I only care about the quality of the post.
    – user6613600
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 10:17
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There is a lot of general discussion about the broader issues but I haven't seen this specific question explicitly addressed yet:

I am asking what I can do to not feel so powerless when it comes to combating sexist language on SO.

Quite a lot, actually. Anytime you see objectionable content, any or all of the following would be a great way to address the problem and help clean up:

  • Edit the post to remove the offending content or render it inoffensive
  • Leave an educational comment, written in a constructive non-sarcastic tone, advising the poster of what they did wrong and why they shouldn't continue to do so. Do not engage if they respond with their own sarcasm, snark, or insults. Instead, escalate for a moderator, who (at least speaking for myself) will suspend the absolute shite out of anybody they find leveling gender-based insults at other users.
  • Flag the post for a moderator, explaining what is wrong, and know that the moderation team absolutely has your back. We take abusive behavior very seriously.
  • In more egregious cases post on meta and bring it to the attention of the wider community, keeping in mind the goal is to raise awareness of the problem, not to start a witch hunt

The goal of Stack Overflow's Q&A format is and always has been on-topic content, with a high signal-to-noise ratio. Cluttering up the main site with off-topic "meta" discussion about the site's content is not the answer, regardless of how important you think the discussion is to have. The main site is simply not the forum for this.


On a personal note, I'm sorry that things played out so negatively for you, but at almost six years of SO participation, you should know that your content is up for editing by anybody who has earned the reputation required to do so, and that off-topic noise routinely gets removed from questions and answers. This is not censorship, this is not done to undermine your efforts or silence your voice or bury the issue, this is simply keeping the site's content on-topic.

I don't consider myself a sexist or a misogynist, quite the opposite. I edited the offending content out of the question because it was noise, and I edited your response out of your answer and deleted the ensuing comment thread because it was noise. I've edited almost 9000 posts and deleted 16,000 comments since becoming a moderator, for the same reason: To keep the content on-topic. There was no other motive at play on my end.

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    FWIW I don't regard you as doing anything wrong. I think the OP is feeling victimised in a situation where you were acting appropriately. The issue is the OP is feeling victimised from a more pervasive societal condition.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 2:03
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    "Leave an educational comment, written in a constructive non-sarcastic tone," Notably, timgavin didn't seem to be the least bit offended by @naomik's tone. Up until the point where you decided to wield your mod privileges to edit a tiny, casual exchange that ran alongside a valid Q/A, there was no issue. The use of mod privileges here caused the issue. Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 21:23
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    @sequoiamcdowell Your comment is based on the false premise that, until I acted, there was no issue. The off-topic content was itself an issue that I was obligated to address. The issue being discussed here is not the degree of offense given or taken by the recipient of naomik's comments and answers. The content was not removed because it was offensive, if was removed because it was off-topic, timgavin's reaction to it has never been an important part of this thread.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 22:40
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User solicits help of of male community.

Here is where you started to go wrong

Male user got what he came for.

Here is where it continued...

I have never once got the impression that I am taking part in a single-gender community, nor am I naive enough to believe that every person asking for help is also of a single gender.

If you remove the gender from both of these quotes then you come to the right conclusion - User A comes for help and sometime gets help. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

I couldn't care less if the users post I am reading from is even human or not; if it helps me, I'm going to upvote it. If it's trash, it's getting downvoted.

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You were correct to call out the language. You (and everyone else) need to call it out because if you don't, it's going to take decades more than it's already going to take in order for it to stop. This is something my daughters are going to need to contend with probably until they retire despite any effort that I spend now, while they're still in elementary school and that makes me pretty sad.

But the way that you did it, despite being rather witty (I laughed as I read your narrative of what you wrote), added something very awkward to your answer especially once the language had been edited out of the question. It came off more antagonistic than tongue-in-cheek (again, especially in the absence of the language in the question).

The way to do it is to just edit it out, and leave a summary similar to:

I'm a woman that can answer this quite well, but felt reticent to post because of the wording that you used. I'm assuming good-faith so I just made a small edit, but please remember that we come in all shapes, sizes and genders. It's off-putting when you feel like you've been excluded.

We don't just talk about our diversity stats on a blog, we actually care about this a great deal. We hold regular forums within the company to find out places where people don't feel safe or included, and we work together to hold ourselves accountable for it and to fix it. This mindset doesn't just extend within the company, we also bring it to the way that we steer and lead our communities, and how we work with and teach the folks that so graciously donate their time as moderators. Problems don't get fixed unless you actively peel away the breadth until you can't find any more.

Meagar took the correct steps, but he doesn't have tools that let him make those sorts of edits and send a message to folks involved in an atomic way. He has to first make two edits, clean up a bunch of comments, and then react as people notice what he's done and .. it's not an easy job.

I'm glad you brought it here because it is a discussion worth having, and what you're doing isn't wrong, it just wasn't the best way to do it. I really hope that you continue helping by giving answers (frankly, could use all the help it can get).

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    Is it a problem? Yes. Is this (vandalizing, calling it censorship and claiming modabuse) the solution? No.
    – ave
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 15:04
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    @ArdaÖzkal I'm quite certain that I've communicated that in my answer; if you have any suggestions on how I could make that clearer, I'm completely open to hearing them :)
    – user50049
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 19:29
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    As usual Tim you do not fail to disappoint me. A great answer. As a woman pushing for this awareness, I've discovered it can be a tricky road trying to express issues without coming across as blaming or anti-male. It's something more pervasive and inbuilt within society and there are differences between the sexes, It's just knowing where these differences matter. (i.e. childbirth)
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 0:31
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    @Yvette Thank you :) I think you meant not disappoint, then? I'm having a little trouble parsing the first sentence </awkward>
    – user50049
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 7:08
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    @TimPost I took a break from everything and slept and read the answer again. I'm sorry for saying that you didn't talk about stuff, you did, but i think that pointing out the issues before recommending what to do ("DON'T: Make more noise. DO: Edit it out.") could make the question clearer.
    – ave
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 10:40
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    The problem with this answer is as follows: @naomik highlighted the gender misstep in a light-hearted way that turned out to be received quite well & left no hard feelings (i.e. she read the situation successfully). The approach you're suggesting here Tim is much more confrontational, verbose, less casual, and more likely to leave the asker feeling defensive (IMO). 'You didn't respond to sexism appropriately, please consult Tim & Matt's Guide for Women: How to Respond to Sexism' You don't see your response here as alienating? Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 21:30
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Before I get started I'd like to point out that this isn't the first time someone has brought up this topic, and it will definitely not be the last time that we see it, be it here or on Meta.SE. Most people on Meta.SO already have a "set" stance regarding this topic; that's why the reaction could seem to be quite .. overdrawn.


Let me start of by thanking you for posting this question. Hopefully this question and the discussion that it started will help the Stack Overflow community to finally let gender as a separating factor behind and move on. Posting this question and hosting this discussion was also pretty brave of you (the backlash was pretty much to be expected).

Now, what is Stack Overflow exactly / what is Stack Overflow supposed to be? The answer is quite simple, a neutral Q&A-site, driven and partly moderated by the community. The truth is, most people here don't care about gender, or anything at all apart from participating in this site. I do not care about it either. If a female or male answers my question, it doesn't make a difference to me, I'll be grateful either way.

Same goes for noise. Everything that has no impact on the Q&A at hand will be considered as noise and will be removed. It doesn't make a difference if you're saying "Hello", "Thanks", make a snarky remark or anything at all, if it doesn't improve/impact the Q/A it will be terminated regardless of how oppressed the author may or may not feel.


Let's get to the current issue. I'll try to break it down as to how I see it, and then try to explain exactly why what happened and what the reasoning behind it is, and what you could have and probably should have done differently.

Step 1: Someone posts a question, and uses "I know this is going to be easy for you guys" in there.

Step 2: You post an answer, and add a snarky remark ("This would've been easier if I was a boy") in response to his introduction.

Step 3: A moderator removes the introduction alongside your snarky remark.

Step 4: You chose to vandalize your own (pretty neat) answer.

Step 5: A moderator reversed the actions you took.

In step 1 & step 2 both of you, the author and you, added unnecessary noise to your text. Anyone is free to edit it out at sight; that's not new, that's how it's always been (at least as far as I can recall). In this case it happened to be Meagar, that's all. Anyone above 2k reputation could've done the same (and most people would have done the same).

What could you have done differently? Well, you could have gone the conflict-free route and simple edited the introduction out. It would have been totally fine (you removed noise), and you could've just posted an answer and moved on with your life. You didn't, and that's why we're here.

You should most definitely not have tried to vandalize your own answer though. That's not something anyone on this site appreciates, and that's nothing that'll get you a lot of sympathy or understanding either.

Also, please, watch out with "my voice was taken from me". The (elected) StackOverflow/Stack Exchange-moderators have every right to do what Meagar did. Also you were not the only one who had her post edited; the author of the question had the same happen to him.

Regarding the "suspension threat": That's part of a normal workflow, one that you'll find in most, if not all, online communities. Step 1 is "Try to de-escalate the situation", Step 2 (takes place if de-escalating doesn't work) is temporarily suspending the user causing the problem (to let them cool down a bit).

So, to close this off, Meagar did exactly what he should have done. No harassment / oppression took place here (and definitely not based on gender!).


Regarding your last-paragraph-question (the other part of your question reads like a rant):

Sorry for having to put it like this, but growing a thicker skin would come in quite handy here. Most users of Stack Overflow are male (that doesn't automatically mean we devalue women here...); that's true, but I don't care if male or female, why would I? I'm here because I'm a programmer. I do not watch out for gender-specific terms while writing, simply because I do not see any value in doing so.

If you feel like it, feel free to comment on questions using gender-specific language, or edit it out (as long as you do not deface the original question!). You do have the necessary privilege after all.

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    Hey, this answer is great! Thank you for putting the effort in it, it describes the situation very well (especially for people that came here without knowing what happened) (I know that you usually just express this with an upvote, but I'm sorry I had to say something more than an upvote ;))
    – TuringTux
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 13:14
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    Seth, this is a pretty thoughtful post, and you worked hard to express respect for the OP. Might you consider cutting the opening section? Leading with "Here we go" and "sick of it" makes it seem like you're completely dismissing the OP's experience out of hand. You then go on to make clear you haven't, and are actually sympathetic, but it's undermined by the opener, IMO.
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 14:10
  • 1
    @Jaydles You're right :) I changed it, it should be better now (less ranty, more introductory).
    – Seth
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 14:27
  • Thanks! That's much better (and I think much more in line with your intended tone). IMO, It makes it a lot easier for a reader to consider your other points fairly.
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 14:29
  • 2
    @Jaydles I think the original introduction scared a good amount of potential readers away ("I'm not going to read yet another rant.") :p And yes, it does make the whole thing flow better.
    – Seth
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 14:31
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@meagar removed the gender exclusive language from the question and my playful remark in my answer. This effectively removes my voice as a user.

We could as easily insert another (more powerful, IMO) interpretation here: @meager removed the gender exclusive language, and as a consequence your remark that was no longer necessary. Both reduced fluff. You have no idea why @meager removed those texts, and you are reacting to your own interpretation of that (No offense: that is what all people do).

The same goes for @meagar's actions trivialize my efforts and bury a serious issue that I encounter very frequently. Again, your conclusion/interpretation. Who knows what @meager intended? He/she could as well be sensitive to gender exclusive language and removed it because of that (I sometimes do that as well.)

You are completely right stating it's so ingrained in user language that it often goes by completely undetected, but the purpose of this site is not to educate people socially (which you yourself said: I don't expect StackOverflow to be a forum for societal issues and I know SO is not my bulletin board for social justice).

Obviously @meager pushed a button with you: @meagar's actions have harmed me, Female user discriminated against and silenced, the community to benefit at my expense, and threaten to suspend me. Maybe it's time to step back and inspect your reaction*. That reaction is not wrong, but it costs you.
On a practical level that could mean: Step back from your keyboard now. Come back tomorrow. Your discussion is welcomed although people may not agree.

* Like you boldfacing your final paragraph right now. Why do you insist that you are not getting heard?

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We generally like to remove everything not directly related to the question at hand from both questions and answers. That has nothing to do with gender. The only thing that matters in that context is if the part considered for removal is an integral part of the question or answer. If it is not, it's noise and needs to go.

We remove things like "Thanks" or "I'm a beginner so ..." all the time from questions. In fact it is expected that you do that when editing a post.

As important as gender issues are, this is not an outlet for them. We're a strictly technical Q/A site.

What happened in your case is that someone removed unnecessary noise from both the question and answer, which is entirely expected and okay.

In regards to "covering it all up" the same principle applies to comments. Noise or no longer relevant comments get removed. Comments in general are not permanent anyway, so they get deleted for varieties of reasons all the time.

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    OK so users that are struggling should do what? Just suck it up and deal with it? This is the solution? Why is no one addressing my actual question?
    – Mulan
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 7:48
  • 8
    @naomik What exactly are you struggling with? People not using gender neutral language? With all due respect, the way to affect change in that is not to put edits or comments next to technical Q/A. Thats a change that will have to come over time, and pointing it out in answers or questions is adding noise to our technical Q/A which we don't want.
    – Magisch
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 7:52
  • 11
    @naomik You can always edit out or neutralize "You guys" or similar phrases in the larger context of a proper edit that fixes other issues of the post, too, if you feel so inclined.
    – Magisch
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 7:53
9

I can understand how terrible it feels to be discriminated...

...but you are not being discriminated.

"Guy" is not gender specific.

Guy is gender-neutral when talking about a group of people.

1.1 (guy) People of either sex

Reason of removal of gender specific parts

SEN is a platform where everyone is considered equal.

We don't care about your gender, your age (ALA you are over 13, due to COPPA), your nationality, your political views, your skin color etc etc. We care about your knowledge and contributions.

This was why the gender specific language was removed and only the relevant part was left, as you said:

SO moderators edit her answer to leave the 99% of the text that serves SO's purpose.

Why does it matter?

This part might be a bit harsh. Sorry in advance.

Why does it matter if someone thinks that you are a man?

Why the hell do genders even matter anymore? What year is this? Every healthy person is capable of doing (pretty much) anything other gender can do. Genders only matter when you are trying to find someone to date with etc. Stack is not a dating site. It shouldn't matter, it doesn't matter.

You trying to remove your answer and getting threatened to be suspended

Your answers are not your answers. If you answer and want complete control over it, please go start a programming blog or something. On StackExchange, as I said above, we care about information, not other irrelevant stuff.

Your answers help people. You can't just remove it. Suspension is indeed the result of trying to remove an answer for irrelevant reasons.

A personal note.

Someone assuming you are the other gender is nothing. I recommend you to stay off the less-moderated parts of internet.

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    Don't get me wrong. I'm a feminist (not of the, uhm, more unstable ones, but the ones that consider women and men equal). I think that there are bigger problems than "he assumed I'm a guy". I agree that it sucks, but let's take care of the worse parts first, ok? This just seems overkill right now.
    – ave
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 12:36
  • 2
    Ah, unsolicited life lessons. This is certainly what we lacked in this thread.
    – user2285236
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 12:50
  • 5
    A minor point of difference: guys isn't yet gender neutral. It may be getting there, but here in the UK, "hi guys" works with a group of any gender, but "those guys over there" sounds, to my ears, specifically male. I am, I confess, not sure why - and I appreciate this may be different in other English-speaking countries.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 15:31
  • 8
    @halfer the best way to make it more gender neutral is using and accepting it as gender neutral.
    – ave
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 15:34
  • 2
    @ArdaÖzkal: to a point, but if language is merely an encoding of information, the meaning that is carried is what the listener believes was meant. A group of well-meaning redefiners can only speed this up so much, and in the interim, the effect may be understood as discriminatory.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 15:48
  • 1
    Re: ""Guy" is not gender specific.". That may only be true in a particular cultural context: North American (and still then restricted to particular circumstances (less formal ones?)). That is, that word may never be used for that purpose anywhere else (some other words or expression may be used instead). I could be wrong; I am geographically challenged. Commented Sep 14, 2016 at 23:26
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen SE is an American company fwiw
    – ave
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 10:27
  • @ArdaÖzkal - I am male, but am a feminist. i.e. look at the definition, I've vote, advocate, preach for all it really means. I am in a high school, so age 14-18 people. After this question here came up, I asked 3 girls if 'Guys' was a bad way to refer to multiple people in the room who happen to be all girls. They said that no one would think it strange, it's non-gender specific. When I hear a girl or woman use it that same way, it becomes a non-issue. Interesting that Turkey (you) agree, but UK, above, doesn't. English is a strange language. Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 17:09
  • @JoeTaxpayer I'm having a difficulty understanding your comment. Are you talking about me or yourself in the first part (the part before "After this question here came up")? If you are talking about yourself... I thought that you were older. Whatever. If you are talking about me, I don't get what you mean on that part. (Also, as visible on my network profile, I'm 15, (turning 16 next month so I consider 16, whatever))
    – ave
    Commented Sep 17, 2016 at 3:38
  • Sorry, I am 53 and work in a high school. The rest just agreed with you on the use of "guys" being non gender specific. Overheard my 17 yr old daughter use "guys" tonight when referring to her and 4 female friends getting together. Last I appreciated your first comment above, there are bigger issues, equal rights across the world, equal pay in the US is still an issue, etc. Commented Sep 17, 2016 at 3:58
  • I'd like to note down that nearly after a year after posting this, I do not agree with everything I said on this post, especially on "Why does it matter?", "A personal note." parts or stuff like "irrelevant stuff". I now believe that misgendering is a problem, but my point about the rest stands ("guys" is gender neutral).
    – ave
    Commented Aug 29, 2017 at 8:26
9

Here's how I get to see it: User solicits help of of male community. User receives help from 30k reputation female user. Female user nudges that non-males can answer too. SO moderators edit her answer to leave the 99% of the text that serves SO's purpose. Male user got what he came for. Female user discriminated against and silenced. All future visitors blind/ignorant to the abuse.

Note, I am not active on SO, I am a mod at Money.SE. The issue above could happen at any stack. You are fighting the wrong battle. There's misogyny all around us. It's not just worth fighting against, it's imperative that we all take a role in eliminating it.

SE aspires to a high signal to noise ratio (STNR). As an example, a widow asks a finance question, and we go to Meta for the fact that good answers also contain the words, "Sorry for your loss" or other words of comfort, which of course are non-financial. Members advocate for a board that's pretty tight on how we compose answers and to aim to post only what might be appropriate for a (published) scholarly work.

In that scenario, if a great answer were left and the paragraph about how "my dad died under similar circumstances and I feel your pain" were removed, that wouldn't mean the mod was heartless, or glad the deceased is gone. It's just abiding by the standards of the board.

The fact that English tends toward the male pronoun is an issue, no doubt. And it may be appropriate to ask questions about it at English.SE. Certainly appropriate to bring it up in the real world. On SO, the be nice policy serves to keep people treated kindly, but don't confuse STNR with censorship or misogyny. That would be unfair to the members who embrace diversity, and would jump to edit/delete anything offensive.

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    Its worth noting that so much as a disparaging remark even in jest is usually very quickly removed from nearly anywhere on the network. The time until offensive posts get edited or destroyed is measured in minutes, not hours.
    – Magisch
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 13:54
9

Adding another answer to so many answers. This is an issue that is near and dear to me, as the author of this post Declining Numbers of Women in Programming, What Can SO do to Help?.

Firstly:

I would have edited out the reference to "guys" without even an edit comment about it, as it's obvious what the edit was and I'm lazy when it comes to writing edit reasons.

Secondly:

The joke:

This would've been easier if I was a boy

These type of jokes are best kept on facebook. They have no place on SO. Trust me, I get it, but it's so important to bite the tongue on here. Not as a woman as a SO user, we all need to maintain a level of professionalism. I would've edited that comment out if I saw it.

Thirdly :

Post vandalisation is not the way to protest. That is something we're always trying to clean up. It's something we deal with in problem users, or people experiencing rage fits. You're better than that. You're a high rep user and have been on the site for many years. It would've been better to come here in the first instance.

Fourthly - Choose Your Battles:

I'm not saying you or anyone else, have to do this. This is how I manage and sometimes don't manage.

I choose my battles on SE. I don't always correct people if they think I'm a man and even have a female avatar. In some cultures people seem to refer to anyone assisting them as "Sir". I let it go. Mainly because there's enough noise in comments as it is. If someone refers to me as "man" or a "bloke" in chat, I will correct them.

Having said that. I've had huge arguments in chat, where I lost my temper over gender issues and that the "he" should really only be used if you know for sure that the person is indeed male.

The thing I love about SO, is there are so many intelligent men on the site, who love and support women in programming. I need to remember this when I get worked up or embroiled in an argument in chat, that there are plenty of supportive people, they tend to not be as loud as the people making objections.

Fifthfly ;)

The whole gender thing is not limited to SO and as a whole SO does pretty well in protecting women's rights. The issue of a male majority is not the fault of SO, but as a community we can ask, how can we do it better than the rest?

The biggest issue on here, is when a woman corrects a user about her gender, I'd like to see the user take that correction graciously. We all come from different cultural backgrounds. So sometimes a way of wording something may be perceived as a challenge into the user's psyche and be blown way out of proportion. For example:

Recently a woman said to another user, words to the effect: " I am a woman, don't disrespect my gender" Something like that. Anyway, the other user took it out of hand as an insult, when it appeared to be a simple correction, maybe not worded in the best way. It is simpler to just say nothing or continue then with addressing the he as a she.

There's too much dust blown up about gender. Women have a right to be referred to as a "she" or "her", not "he" or "him" and it's really as simple as that. It would be great to see the members of this site lead by example on this issue.

We are such a pedantic lot on this site, it's like being in a court room sometimes the amount of debate that can ensue over technicalities. I implore people to move on more easily and Choose Your Battles. It's a programming site. If a woman corrects you. Accept it, move on.

Sixly: omg will these numbers ever end

My attitude is this. My gender is irrelevant as a programmer. I don't like being called out as a woman, for example: Can I have a "woman's perspective on this?" My gender on the site is irrelevant, except within specific meta discussions tagged .

That aside, I'm here to share and improve my programming skills and assist in moderating the site.

It will be good when societies can regard a person as a person and the differentiation of gender and abilities only applies where it should, with childbirth and breastfeeding. Currently only women can do this and these activities have nothing to do with programming.


Interesting experience and an example of how I now handle things.

Went into chat after writing this and was faced with an off and inappropriate comment. Flagged the comment, this then caused a great discussion about the comment being flagged and then a thread of disgusting comments, which I continued to flag. I went to the Tavern and pinged Shog9.

There's some disgusting people going out of there way to make women feel demoralised

This also got the attention of other users and the comments were deleted.

I then pinged the RO:

@rene can you have a look at the transcript and maybe have a look at who has RO privileges here. interesting since I just sang SO praises here If I want to go to a pub and put up with low brow crap I would do that. I'm very unhappy to say the least

This is a prime example of what I was saying:

@πάνταῥεῖ I feel like some people have a built-in blacklist in their minds triggering a flag immediately without looking at the context…

If someone starts talking about tits in a chat room. I'm the only woman in the room. How am I supposed to feel? And why is it that people defend this behaviour and degrade the people flagging this type of chat?

It's important to remember there will always be people supporting good behaviour:

We don't need to provoke stuff here.

I stay quiet and flag, get support if needed and then will make a comment. This keeps me from getting more upset and becoming embroiled in an argument and becoming part of the problem of lowering the professionalism on the site.

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    I hear that there are drugs that men can take that cause them to lactate... just saying. Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 2:02
  • 1
    @yellowantphil exactly! That's why I said yet. They'd want to make sure they have a chest wax... just saying ;)
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 2:03
  • 5
    Note that "Sir" is sometimes a language quirk. We don't have gender specific pronouns in Tagalog (Filipino), so "Po" implies a respectful way to address either gender. But as you're thinking in one language and writing in another, it sometimes just comes out that way. Sometimes my wife will say "his" when speaking in the possessive sense regarding my daughter, and it's just a manifestation of that - she just grabbed the wrong word while being in thought (and she's more fluent than many native English speakers). Many other languages and dialects all over Asia share this similarity.
    – user50049
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 7:14
  • @TimPost yep I suspected that, which is why I don't correct it, and don't worry about comments in posts. Chat is a different thing, when you can get a feel for someone's level of English skills.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 9:37
  • 1
    Oh hey yvette :) expected an answer from you too. Great answer.
    – ave
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 10:31
  • @ArdaÖzkal thanks. Yes I have a rep for supporting women in programming.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 10:33
  • 2
    Good to see you chimed in! (I linked your question in the comments of my answer above, and reread it and some of the answers yesterday. I was glad to see it still read to me as a high quality discussion of the gender issue. I'm glad to see your answer here is just as well written and thought out.)
    – Kendra
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 13:11
  • @Kendra thanks for the feedback, I value that.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 13:13
3

I'll post my answer because it'll just take too many comments.

First off, as with most answers and comments have said, what was removed from your answer was noise; it is normal procedure for anyone with editing privileges to edit out noise. You have admitted yourself that the line that was removed from your answer, the noise was in reply to something from the question which too was noise. Now if the noise from the question was removed, aside from looking like weren't doing their volunteer job properly, your noise would have made no sense1.

Your reaction was to then try and delete the answer. At the time it was the accepted answer which caused you then opt to vandalize the question. As already pointed out by others, it is frowned upon2.

@Meagar then warned you that you risk suspension because of your vandalization of your answer. I determine this because the comment talked about self-destruction. The common action of users who self-destruct is to remove all their question/answers either by deleting them or vandalizing them to remove all content. @Meagar then deletes a bunch of comments.

Your verdict? Mod Abuse! *Slams fist on table* Censorship! *Slams fist on table*

Of course this is hardly the case. Others have already explained about the edits in which should be noted that anyone can submit an edit and some people can edit without approval (the poster included regardless of rep), so it didn't need to be a mod to set this off. The comment removal is because

Comments are temporary "Post-It" notes left on a question or answer.

Comments are seen as ephemeral on Stack Exchange. They are not the main content. The only purpose of comments is to provide feedback to a question or answer with the goal of improving it.

Sources: Privileges - Comment & Mods deleting comments because they don't agree - Accepted Answer

Moderators are the only people who can delete other people's comments, so I get the feeling the moderator abuse and censorship charges would have also included conspiracy if a user edited the question and a moderator deleted the comments.

If not, would you have reacted the same if this was the case? Is not why? A moderator is just like any other user, but with the ability to deal with more of the crap we don't see on the surface. (Who do you think those moderator attention flags go to?)


Now you may have noticed the 1 and 2, and I do this to point out something from your answer:

I often consider future visitors in my question responses

Your actions contradict this. First off, what of the future visitors you would have impacted from your vandalization of your answer had it been successful?

Regarding 2:
The main thing though is that if you did consider future visitors then think about your "playful remark" (regarding 1). I only believe it was playful because that is what you said. I am the kind of person who sometimes don't get these little jokes, hell a while back I believed "tl;dr" meant "this post is too long so don't read it"

Looking at the line by itself

This would've been easier if I was a boy

What does this mean? Would laravel be harder to understand if I was a girl? Is it because I am a boy (debatable3) that I understand PHP as well as I do? (Also debatable).

Even if I understood by myself that this line as a playful remark in response to something in the question, when this was removed from the question your playful remark no longer has this "playful" aspect to it and a future visitor may have been offended, because the context is gone.


Ideally you should be going through Stack Overflow assuming that no one knows your sex or gender and don't care either way. If they refer to you incorrectly (in comments) kindly correct them if it bothers you that much, if not ignore it. If you see this in questions or answers, do what @meagar did and edit it, more than likely its noise with no reason to be in the post and won't affect it.


3: I am a male, but I consider myself as a maiden.

0
2

Guys is gender neutral at this point and gender has nothing to do with how you manipulate arrays in PHP.

0

I wanted to add a general note of encouragement, even if the final Meta answer about editing out "voice" is not the one you are looking for. Hope it is of some help.

A number of answers here have addressed the main question, and I agree with the broad position expressed thus far, which is that off-topic material does not belong in posts. I am a frequent editor and regularly remove thanks, salutations, urgent begging, deadlines, religious material, hopes that the post is clear or that someone can answer. However, whilst I try to respect the opinion of people who are approaching the community in good faith, we are firmly anti-fluff here, even when that material is intended to serve a social good.

I do take issue sometimes with the tone expressed on Meta about gender - this community is male dominated, and if men are lining up to tell you you're not being discriminated against, I can see how that is potentially problematic. For what is worth - and I'm afraid I am offering another male opinion on the matter - I do think the gender-positive view emanating from Stack Overflow Inc is genuine (and I am not usually given to say nice things about corporations). I also think it is great that we get this opportunity to discuss this with a major tech company, given that most do not even permit this small window into their day-to-day running.

It is possible that the slow transformation in attitudes towards gender equality, at least in this little corner of the internet, might be served by finding gender-specific phrases and ironing them out. You may, if you wish, add a note about why you have done this in the edit reason - I have added Remove gender-specific language in the past, and the sky did not fall in! Bear in mind though that "guys", to take the usual example, is very common on the site, and I might gently advise against taking on too great an editing burden. That way leads to burnt-out, however good the intentions are.

Note that if you do choose to edit posts in this way, it is expected that you improve all obvious issues, rather than just your bugbears; my pet peeve is begging and pleading, but when I edit, I do really see the value in improving as much as possible.

I'd also add that gender specificity is seen in different ways around the world. Where you see "sir", this tends to be very common in India, where we have a lot of users, and this salutation is regarded as a form of great respect. In a country where "he" is still taught in schools as the gender-neutral form, "male by default" thinking still prevails. My view is that it is fine to amend these, but be gentle when you do so, since it can be greatly confusing to someone who may not have been exposed to much feminist philosophy. (I made the mistake of commenting to correct male-specific language from an Italian who had a very limited grasp of English, and I think I completely befuddled the poor chap, who was very apologetic nothwithstanding, and I end up achieving nothing).

Finally, and I may be teaching you to suck eggs at this point - have you considered furthering the gender/tech cause by aiding female-centric community groups, either by donating or helping? Girls Who Code (in the US) comes to mind, and there are sure to be similar initiatives in your region.


Following on from a comment below, this remark may merit some further expansion. A popular view expressed here is that on Meta, we are emotionless automatons in the best possible way - we analyse proposals, we leave our flaws at the door, we almost disconnect from our physicality - and we are certainly not hampered by bias or subconscious motivation.

But, of course, that's not the real world we live in. If someone suggests that the gender-specific language (and the genderised assumptions behind them) feels exclusionary, we automatons do not comprehend, for we have not experienced such exclusion. Consciously or otherwise, we then respond as if it is not possible for a reasonable person to feel excluded, or that a person who felt excluded is unnecessarily sensitive.

We don't merely say they are wrong to feel such things, but that their concern is completely and utterly irrelevant on Meta. For us automatons, it's that simple, and some are even sick of this! We demand to know why it matters if someone thinks that you are a man! You are not being discriminated against! Of course, "guys" is gender neutral anyway! (with apologies to the authors, who do not intend to invalidate another person's experience).

Indeed, we come quite close to being offended - as much as our automaton souls will allow, at any rate - that something as illogical as discrimination might have crept into the circuits of our writing.

And so it is by this process that a person experiencing exclusion may, when they raise their head above the parapet, experience a response from the primary in-group that is itself exclusionary, thus worsening the problem. Of course, an in-group automaton could argue that this strategy could be used to argue anything, to which I tend to say: is an accommodation available that does not apply a punitive cost to the in-group? If the answer is yes - for example in the form of not using gendered language - maybe this is acceptable, even if in-group automatons do not understand the reasons for being asked to do so.

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    I appreciate your thoughtful and tactful reply. fwiw, I try to be very understanding a gender-exclusive language and I've never ever responded in an angry manner toward another individual for using such language. I operate under the illusion that everyone has good intentions even if that sometimes means I give an undeserving person the benefit of the doubt. I know I would be completely ineffective if I appeared to be the scathing, raging feminist type. ...
    – Mulan
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 22:32
  • 1
    ... I have not considered getting involved with female communities – I'm not totally sure why. I've never been extroverted enough to feel like I'd ever belong in any community, tbh. Despite what anyone here would believe about me, it took a lot of courage to face my peers when I felt something objectionable was happening.
    – Mulan
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 22:35
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    You're welcome @naomik. I wonder if volunteering to teach children coding would appeal to you? There'd be some great gender modelling for the girls, and anyway, kids can sometimes be easier to work with than adults :-). Here in the UK, we have Code Club that organises such volunteering, and I'd expect there are similar organisations elsewhere.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 22:44
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    Honestly the thought of being a role model gives me a lot of anxiety. I'm not entirely sure why. I constantly feel like a fraud amongst peers and I very rarely feel a sense of belonging – anywhere, really. This isn't meant to solicit pity, it's just the truth about me. Especially after this post here, I really feel like I don't have much to lose.
    – Mulan
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 22:57
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    The other component to that might be selfishness – I'm always striving to learn more and I feel like I would be stifling my own personal development by teaching elementary topics to beginners. It's much more the anxiety aspect tho. Probably 70/30 anxiety/selfishness :S
    – Mulan
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 22:58
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    "I do take issue sometimes with the tone expressed on Meta about gender" The tone that gender is completely and utterly irrelevant on this site? What issue could one have with a online community where it doesn't matter what gender you are?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 14, 2016 at 6:24
  • 1
    @naomik: my guess is that your level of learning is significantly ahead of your peer group, given your S/O score and GitHub profile. You could, if you wish, take some time off from learning without harming your skills marketability. Of course I can't know if teaching is suitable for you, but small groups is a good way to start.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 14, 2016 at 21:57
  • (...and this article is pretty good too. Yeah, he works for Mozilla).
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 14, 2016 at 22:02
  • @Cerbrus: thanks, I've added some opinion material to try to answer that, I hope it helps.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 14, 2016 at 22:39
  • 2
    @halfer: "A popular view expressed here is that on Meta, we are emotionless automatons in the best possible way" You are completely missing the point of "gender doesn't matter". We are not emotionless. It's just that gender is literally irrelevant.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 6:31
  • 1
    @Cerbrus: I do see your point, but I think your view is wrong. Sure, gender should not matter here. But when a conversation about gender is drowned out by "no, that does not matter here" - with lots of bold font - then maybe it does. We will probably just have to agree to disagree! :-)
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 7:35
  • "when a conversation about gender..." A conversation we shouldn't be having on here in the first place. That is why people are saying it does not matter here. That subject isn't suddenly relevant to meta, if a users suddenly makes something completely unrelated about "gender". Screaming "Gender discrimination!" doesn't make it gender discrimination.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 7:43
  • 1
    I agree with your last sentence @Cerbrus. I'd make the opposite case too, which is probably my main theme: screaming "not gender discrimination" does not make it not gender discrimination.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 8:01
  • 2
    @halfer Similarly, screaming "Gender discrimination" when its not doesn't suddenly make it, and doing that makes people dislike you intensely, and when push comes to shove about actual discrimination, people often then push it aside, because you misrepresented the first time.
    – Magisch
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 8:11
  • 1
    @Cerbrus: ah, I see your point. In relation to the moderation in this specific case, I agree with you; in relation to the general theme about genderised language, I agree with the OP.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 8:12
-27

The don't call it the "edit" button for nothing

Many here are saying things to the effect of: "@meager's decision was objective: there are rules against off-topic content and he was enforcing them." I disagree that his actions were nothing more than "objectively enforcing the rules."

To wit: I see his choice to remove this particular piece of OT content as editorializing, i.e. changing the content to reflect or protect a certain viewpoint.

Just as a newspaper editor's choices of which stories to run and which to drop is a reflection of their views, moderators' choices of which "off-topic" content to remove reflects their views. The fact that this 9 word comment was singled out for removal among the sea of off-topic content on SO says volumes about the values of the moderating team here (I'm not going to single out @meager as he seems to have the support of the whole team).

My point? Stop trying to pretend this decisions was a mechanical application of a set of clear-cut instructions! It was EDITORIALIZING.

We can disagree about whether this was a good editorial judgement call, but claiming there was no judgement call at all is just baloney. You made a decision: own it!!

"objectively enforcing site rules" "that's always how it is"

I do not believe these rules are universally & evenly applied. Here's a few examples of off-topic content that mods saw fit to leave intact:

I preface this by saying my Javascript experience is very weak. Lots of jQuery, very little real comprehension.

How many books the user read has no impact how prototypal inheritance works in JS, and as @madara-uchiha puts it “The visitor from Google coming to read a question and its answer doesn't care [how many books you read]”: off topic How to better understand Coffeescript/JavaScript mixins?

“I am recording video for my church…

immaterial, off topic What format should I convert my home video to for web and mobile?

I was handed an software doc (or what passes for proper documentation nowadays). Much to my chagrin, it might as well have been gently used piece of toilet paper from the men's room.

off topic: Visitor from google didn’t come for wry scatological humor. How would I translate this C# code into PHP?

This leads to an interesting question: "Is :kate_upton an object?" Yes, :kate_upton has been objectified in Ruby (as well as other places), but your feminist friends may not want to hear that. They may, however, mellow out if you let them know that everything in Ruby are equally objects (except blocks, and a few other things)

off topic, politically charged, and specifically hostile towards women. The trifecta! https://stackoverflow.com/a/23587486/146406

I hired a guy to finish everything concerning s3, but he does not know how to download file.

Your employee relationships are not relevant to the question, off topic

That idiot being me

user's intellectual capacity is off topic Can anybody explain OAuth?

First of all, yes i have searched this site for answers. I have searched for HOURS.

Visitor from google doesn’t care how long you searched, they just want the answer AWS ec2 SSH permission denied (publickey)

My cursor fell upon the "Empty Trash" menu option like the cold lid of a casket.

I don't think Flash ever recovered. To this day it still clings to the memory of Jenine. Her old, imperfect definitions still float through my project like abandoned ghosts. Whenever I force Flash to compile, it still lovingly inserts her into my movie, nestling her definition in amongst the other, living classes, like a small shrine. I wonder if they can see her.

wat? 100k views, no moderator cleanup. Flash CS4 refuses to let go

"...did you ever catch all the fish?"

Of course not: I understand that mods will not catch everything and must pick their battles. This is precisely why I wonder, why did mods choose to pick this particular battle, and not any of those above?

content warning: the following few lines contains snark:

I ran some analysis on naomik's comment and the results were shattering:

$ echo "This would've been easier if I was a boy" | wc -w
   9

The comment is a total of 9 words. Compare that to the Flash novella above. Why was the 9 word comment singled out and that one left alone? "The mods just missed it..." With 100k+ views? I don't think so. Mods definitely saw that post & decided to leave it alone. The bizarre girlfriend narrative made the story humorous but to claim it was necessary in relating the question would be ridiculous: it obfuscated more than it clarified & served no purpose but humor.

So why was naomik's 9 word comment (prefacing her ludicrously technically detailed answer) singled out?

Feelings... nothing more than feelings

  • Q: Why was this post singled out for editing on the grounds of "off-topicness" and not others?
  • A: Because this one gently calls attention to sexism, and that might hurt someone's feelings.

The post was edited to protect someone's feelings. But who's?

  • Q: Who is going to be offended by a comment poking fun at someone for assuming only "guys" answer questions on SO?
  • A: Insecure and/or sexist men.

Conclusion: All posts are handled equally. Some are just handled more equally than others.

If all OT content was handled equally, I wouldn't have been able to easily find so many examples (see above). The OT content rule is flexible, subjective, and very much up to the Mods' discretions.

@meager & the Mod team chose to invoke the "off-topic content" rule to remove a comment that might have been offensive to men who don't want to think about implicit sexist language. They do not remove all instances of "guys" across SO because the gendered language isn't the issue to them: the issue was that someone pointed it out, and pointing out this pervasive aspect of the SO culture might hurt some men's feelings. Sad!

22
  • 5
    you seem to be assuming that the elected moderators (and employees who moderate) see and moderate every single post.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 22:41
  • 1
    @KevinB I addressed your concern explicitly in my post. See: "...did you ever catch all the fish?" above, a reference to a joke that while a fisherman or woman constantly works at catching fish, they never catch all the fish. Does that clarify that I understand moderators will not see every post? See also, above: '"The mods just missed it..." With 100k+ views? I don't think so.' Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 0:23
  • 1
    No, i did read that part. If you truly meant it though, then the rest of your post seems pretty contradictory.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 0:23
  • 17
    This is asinine, and from start to finish it is based on a completely false representation of the facts. I "picked" this battle because it was flagged. For the umpteenth time, and I don't know why we have to keep explaining this, moderators are not selectively protecting some objectionable content while removing other content until you can prove that we're systematically ignoring some flags and responding to others. We aren't viewing an even sampling of posts and choosing to act on some but not others, we are responding to flags. If you find bad content, just flag it.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 0:32
  • The difference between the off-topic material in question and the off-topic material that "the mods saw fit to leave intact" is that the former was flagged (as meagar says above), and had the (realized) potential to cause a string of nasty comments, answer vandalism, and a contentious post on Meta. If you think those other off-topic bits are so bad, either edit them, suggest edits, or flag them. Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 1:45
  • 3
    have you tried, i don't know, making or even suggesting an edit on any of the posts you point out that you believe stuff should be removed? have they been rejected? was the reason for the rejection supportive of your claims? unless another's suggestion history hides rejected edits the answer is no as not a single one of the 8 posts you mention appear in your list of 8 suggestions.
    – Memor-X
    Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 3:24
  • 3
    (cont.) mods don't moderate every post, they help with the rest of the community, including you. so if you want to blame the just mods for not making edits where you see them then you should take some of the blame for not suggesting the edits either
    – Memor-X
    Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 3:24
  • 3
    I'm pleased that you're willing to speak up for gender equality, but as a man who tries to do the same, I nevertheless think this post could have been a bit more, erm, gentle and constructive. I think naomik was right to raise the issue of genderised language on Meta, but IMO that does not mean that moderator action in response to off-topic material is unfairly biased.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 9:54
  • LOL that's funny...... genuinely funny. They removed it because other people flagged it to point them to it. There is NOTHING else at play here. Before you continue complaining, I would suggest for you to FLAG all the posts you linked here and see how they are acted upon. If the same type of off-topicness, flagged the same way, doesn't get handled the same way.... we have a problem.
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 13:30
  • @meager what was the answer flagged for (i.e. which of the radio button choices was picked)? Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 16:54
  • @ everyone asking me to flag the questions in question: will do! I've started flagging already & as @patrice suggests, mod action will show whether there's a problem or not :) Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 16:55
  • 1
    Btw the IDEAL solution is to edit, not flag these. But yeah
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 16, 2016 at 16:57
  • 3
    @sequoiamcdowell I have time for a slightly longer response now, so: You are again wrong, and ignorant of how the site works, and of my duties as a moderator. The biggest part of my job is handling flags in the flag queue. That's most of a moderator's duty. At the very least, I can choose to reject some flags as invalid, but nearly the whole point of my being here is to act on flags. What kind of message would I be sending if somebody flagged "probably too hard for girls to answer, tho" as offensive, and I declined the flag?
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Sep 19, 2016 at 21:53
  • 6
    @sequoiamcdowell I would urge you, in the future, to take a few minutes and try to gather at least some of the facts before making sweeping allegations about the conduct of others. You've been factually wrong at virtually ever turn here, basing your argument on incorrect assumptions about the events and motives. In the process you've accused me of either being or acting to protect "insecure and/or sexist men", accused me of making "bad judgment calls", and implied that there is some kind of systematic misogyny in how moderators respond to flags, all ridiculous and all highly insulting.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Sep 19, 2016 at 21:57
  • 1
    @sequoiamcdowell: I suggest you read meagar's replies to your question again: "Can you tell us why the answer was originally flagged?" - "It wasn't, naomik's comment was flagged". It's quite clear what Was and what wasn't flagged.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 21, 2016 at 6:41
-28

There are three kind of people that would use this kind of discrimination:

  1. Ignorants
  2. Wrongers
  3. Ill-intentioned

The first category is hard to educate, you can leave messages/comments, but likely they won't give a damn and pursuit only their happiness.

The second category can indeed be educated, you can do this by leaving educational comments when editing their posts, as others have suggested.

The third category should not even be present on this site, but if so, their content will likely be removed during moderation (by regular users via flags/votes, or by moderators).

Your point is a valid one though, there are sexists among us, however spamming like you did way won't help you or the receiver. There is a chance people that you attack this way will feel too ashamed to even ask another question on this site again. Have you thought about those?

4
  • 6
    I'm sorry, what person did I spam/attack?
    – Mulan
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 22:36
  • 1
    @naomik I was referring to the person you were responding to. Maybe "attack" is a little bit forced in this context, still a passive-aggressive tone doesn't guarantee the effect you'd expect.
    – Cristik
    Commented Sep 14, 2016 at 4:18
  • 2
    @Cristik: There wasn't any discrimination in the first place. The OP of that question never said women couldn't answer. Altogether, this answer is just a rant that's hardly based in reality.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 14, 2016 at 6:51
  • @Cerbrus The OP in discussion might fit into the second category from my answer - "wrongers", as he might have not realize that using appellatives like "guys" might offend other people. For those ones, editing the post with an explanatory message, as suggested, would suffice. The other two categories are hard to educate, so simply removing the problematic parts from their content should suffice.
    – Cristik
    Commented Sep 14, 2016 at 7:25
-52

I think it's rather scary that a post about gender equality gets so many down votes. I'd say that clearly shows that there's a problem. This post isn't saying anything upsetting, it's simply stating that we should try to include everyone. But clearly people don't like that. Or why would you otherwise down vote this?

To say that SO removes noise is simply not true. If you're going to remove all noise remove all gender-exclusive language as well. But that's not done. Instead SO selectively removes the noise it doesn't like. It's probably not something that's done intentionally. Moderators are removing what they see, no one is perfect an no one can see everything. But here a moderator clearly removed gender-excluding language and didn't want to take a discussion about it. So raising a question around this can't be that bad. Can it? Do we want an SO where discussing equality isn't ok?

Thirdly. To tell a female user to simply not disclose their gender as suggested here by πάντα ῥεῖ is an absurd solution. That can never be the solution to this. That means all females should hide? To not use their real name, to not post an avatar picture as others do. Is that really the SO we want? That would just push the the gender excluding even further.

45
  • 7
    Nothing to do with gender... All to do with "this isn't the place for such issues". 100%with you, no gender language should be something we strive for. I prefer mods to spend time on more useful things
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 11:11
  • 20
    What are you talking about? The issue here is NOT THE GENDER, off-topic text was removed because it was off-topic, OP comes to meta and wants to discuss why her text was removed because we "censor" her, this is plainly not true and which is most likely the reason she is being down voted. If she instead had posted a question "Hey guys, I think there's a problem with X, what can we do about it?" The reception would most likely be different, please STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT A SOCIAL ISSUE.
    – Epodax
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 11:14
  • 21
    "A post about gender equality gets so many down votes. I'd say that clearly shows that there's a problem." True, there is a problem. The problem is that the OP is making assumptions while the actions on their answer have nothing to do with gender.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 11:15
  • 4
    @stenehall seems i wasn't cleae. I meant the basic assumptions of this question (that the removal of that text and what followed was based because of gender) are wrong. Now, if you encounter REAL gemder bias/harassment... Please flag/act appropriately. Not what happened. I'm sympathetic to the cause,but this isnt a battle for said cause. This is just an exercise in nonsense
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 11:23
  • 4
    @stenehall: "But if we want to change what kind of language is used and make people aware of what type of language they use." As Madara answered, SO is not the place for that.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 11:25
  • 3
    @stenehall I think it's clear from the comments I inserted into the original post - the moderator was not unwilling to discuss it - it didn't belong in comments on the post. They gave clear instructions as to where it could be discussed - hence this post.
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 11:41
  • 7
    @stenehall so.. The OP is offended by the "guys" comment. A moderator, wanting to make sure no one is offended, removes the "guys". The comment in the OP's answer doesn't make sense now and is correctly removed. Honestly what should have happened here? It doesn't get removed: someone is offended. It gets removed: someone is offended. Feels like a lose-lose situation
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 12:46
  • 5
    @stenehall: I feel bad because someone's offended by something that bears no relevance to the site. The point we need to get out there is that gender doesn't matter. Not that we need to take excessive care not to "offend" anyone.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 13:04
  • 3
    @stenehall so the solution to offensive language is the LEAVE IT? Wait... Are you really serious there? If it offends someone let's leave it on the site so other people can learn from it? In any case Stack is not for these issues. At all. And even if it was, there can be lessons learned without letting the language on the site.
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 13:23
  • 6
    @stenehall but it's NOT Stack's place to be teaching these things. Just like the best zuchini bread recipe can teach me a lot, but shouldn't be in an answer, the whole "learning moment" here doesn't have to be on Stack. That's just how it is.
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 13:54
  • 11
    "I think it's rather scary that a post about gender equality gets so many down votes. I'd say that clearly shows that there's a problem." Just because you have an opinion, doesn't mean that everyone must agree with you. I've seen meta downvotes on a bunch of things. The question being about gender equality doesn't make it special. Votes on meta are based on agreement, and no one agrees that there was a social, gender issue as was presented in the question. That is all.
    – Madara's Ghost Mod
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 16:17
  • 10
    Also "And didn't want to take discussion about it", the moderator in question clearly told OP to go to meta and discuss it there, instead of polluting the comments on the question further. This is what meta is for. Also, a moderator included the deleted comments for transparency and context, and another moderator (yours truly) responded to the post. Please don't make accusations about the moderation team silencing and avoiding discussion, that's not only false, but actually pretty insulting.
    – Madara's Ghost Mod
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 16:19
  • 20
    @ftor Minorities should not be treated any differently (or demand any different treatment) than any other member of the community, that's what makes them a minority. I know that female users are a minority here. No, I don't think we need to be extra sensitive towards any particular population. Discrimination works both way. When you discriminate in favor of one population, you discriminate against everyone else. SO should treat its female users just like it treats any other members, with respect and professionalism to the person, not to the gender.
    – Madara's Ghost Mod
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 19:19
  • 3
    @ftor For any given member, the treatment is the same. Just because there are more for example men on SO, doesn't mean they're stronger. And then trying to facilitate options especially for women would indeed be gender discrimination, just in the opposite way. Everyone should be considerate towards everyone, and minority members should not be treated different in any way
    – Magisch
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 9:23
  • 5
    @ftor Any single member of the majority is not more powerful then any single member of the minority, at least here.
    – Magisch
    Commented Sep 15, 2016 at 10:38

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