Timeline for Moderator removed my good-natured response to gender-exclusive language
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
46 events
when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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Sep 15, 2016 at 10:38 | comment | added | Magisch | @ftor Any single member of the majority is not more powerful then any single member of the minority, at least here. | |
Sep 15, 2016 at 9:23 | comment | added | Magisch | @ftor For any given member, the treatment is the same. Just because there are more for example men on SO, doesn't mean they're stronger. And then trying to facilitate options especially for women would indeed be gender discrimination, just in the opposite way. Everyone should be considerate towards everyone, and minority members should not be treated different in any way | |
Sep 15, 2016 at 8:46 | comment | added | Magisch | @ftor With all due respect, no. No singling out, no special treatment, no quotas. Replacing one kind of discrimination with another doesn't solve anything | |
Sep 14, 2016 at 8:03 | comment | added | Ry- Mod | “If you're going to remove all noise remove all gender-exclusive language as well. But that's not done. … here a moderator clearly removed gender-excluding language” Eh? Anyway, we definitely try to remove unintentionally gender-exclusive noise! Feel free to edit it out whenever. I do. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 19:19 | comment | added | Madara's Ghost Mod | @ftor Minorities should not be treated any differently (or demand any different treatment) than any other member of the community, that's what makes them a minority. I know that female users are a minority here. No, I don't think we need to be extra sensitive towards any particular population. Discrimination works both way. When you discriminate in favor of one population, you discriminate against everyone else. SO should treat its female users just like it treats any other members, with respect and professionalism to the person, not to the gender. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 18:18 | comment | added | user6445533 | @Madara A community shows its character in dealing with its minorities - yes, it sounds weird, but female users are a minority here. To state a specific need of a minority isn't relevant is an anti-pattern in this context. This is exactly the way minorities shouldn't be treated. They decide what is relevant to them, not the majority. SO should treat its female users with special sensitivity so that their number grows and a better community evolves. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 16:19 | comment | added | Madara's Ghost Mod | Also "And didn't want to take discussion about it", the moderator in question clearly told OP to go to meta and discuss it there, instead of polluting the comments on the question further. This is what meta is for. Also, a moderator included the deleted comments for transparency and context, and another moderator (yours truly) responded to the post. Please don't make accusations about the moderation team silencing and avoiding discussion, that's not only false, but actually pretty insulting. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 16:17 | comment | added | Madara's Ghost Mod | "I think it's rather scary that a post about gender equality gets so many down votes. I'd say that clearly shows that there's a problem." Just because you have an opinion, doesn't mean that everyone must agree with you. I've seen meta downvotes on a bunch of things. The question being about gender equality doesn't make it special. Votes on meta are based on agreement, and no one agrees that there was a social, gender issue as was presented in the question. That is all. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 13:54 | comment | added | Patrice | @stenehall but it's NOT Stack's place to be teaching these things. Just like the best zuchini bread recipe can teach me a lot, but shouldn't be in an answer, the whole "learning moment" here doesn't have to be on Stack. That's just how it is. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 13:36 | comment | added | stenehall | @Patrice I'm not saying I think all offensive language should be kept. But in this case it was a gender excluding comment probably done without bad intend. In that case it can serve as a teaching opportunity. When it's clearly sexist or rasist comments it's another matter. It's of course a blurry line between them, that's what makes it extra hard. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 13:23 | comment | added | Patrice | @stenehall so the solution to offensive language is the LEAVE IT? Wait... Are you really serious there? If it offends someone let's leave it on the site so other people can learn from it? In any case Stack is not for these issues. At all. And even if it was, there can be lessons learned without letting the language on the site. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 13:10 | comment | added | user6445533 | @stenehall OK, I was wrong, there is a general consensus and it is reflected by the algo (blurring your response). I don't agree with it but that does not really matter. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 13:04 | comment | added | Cerbrus | Relevant: 404 - spine not found | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 13:04 | comment | added | Cerbrus | @stenehall: I feel bad because someone's offended by something that bears no relevance to the site. The point we need to get out there is that gender doesn't matter. Not that we need to take excessive care not to "offend" anyone. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:57 | comment | added | stenehall | @Cerbrus Your view is that it's utterly irrelevant. For me if users feel bad it's not irrelevant. It's a problem within the community that should be addressed by the community. Since it happened in a thread it seems reasonable to at least start addressing it there, and then maybe move it to a better place. But if it's simply removed there won't be any improvement since no one will learn from it. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:52 | comment | added | Cerbrus | @stenehall: So, you'd rather keep the noise in there so some users may learn something that's completely and utterly irrelevant to SO? | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:50 | comment | added | stenehall | @Patrice Sometimes there's no perfect solution to a situation. When there's two bad options I personally try to see what solution will help the most for the future. If both the answer and the comment is removed the same mistake will be repeated over and over again. If it's left, at least a few people might read it and see the problem with it and actually learn from it. For me SO is all about learning and getting better. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:46 | comment | added | Patrice | @stenehall so.. The OP is offended by the "guys" comment. A moderator, wanting to make sure no one is offended, removes the "guys". The comment in the OP's answer doesn't make sense now and is correctly removed. Honestly what should have happened here? It doesn't get removed: someone is offended. It gets removed: someone is offended. Feels like a lose-lose situation | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:44 | comment | added | stenehall | @Cerbrus I didn't mean for that to sound as I implied that they're doing a bad job. I'm sorry if it did. Noo ne is ever completely impartial, that's how we work. No one is perfect, we can't remove all noise. I simply meant to say that that is how it works. SO is a good place, but everything can always be better. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:42 | comment | added | stenehall | @Epodax Someone suggested that a simple solution is to hide that she's a female. Noone but I commented on that. Nor did anyone actually support me when I said that's absurd. Instead people focus on "this wasn't gender based" and ignore everything else. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:42 | comment | added | stenehall | @Epodax But if you look at this from the OPs view it might look different from what you all clearly see. She sees an gender excluding comment (and I can assure you that it's far from the only one on SO). She comments on it and the result is that it all is removed. At some point it gets to much. Was this voiced in an ideal way? Probably not. But it makes me sad that when someone feels mistreated and they actually dare voice it they're so hardly shut down by the community as OP have been in this thread. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:42 | comment | added | stenehall | @Epodax I'm not trying to complain about the Mods nor SO in general. SO is a good platform. What Im trying to say is that there IS a gender problem on SO (as on most of the web). I don't see removing all gender excluding language as a solution since it isn't actually addressing the problem. Most people writing in a gender excluding way wont even realize it. So a short comment about it wouldn't be harmful. Since mods aren't perfect (noone is) it's impossible to remove all noise, the Mods will remove what they see, that is how it works. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:31 | comment | added | Cerbrus | @stenehall: You are accusing them of not being impartial, though: "SO removes what they feel is noise. But far from all noise is removed" There, you are implying the mods are doing a bad job. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:26 | comment | added | Epodax | I'm having a hard time understanding what it is you are trying to say, you seem to complain that the moderators / SO team doesn't remove all noise, be it gender based or not, but then you proceed to say that you know that it's hard to find it all. If you know that, then what is your point? What are you trying to say? | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:22 | comment | added | stenehall | @Cerbrus I've never said that the Mods are doing a bad job nor that they could catch everything. I specificly wrote "Moderators are removing what they see, no one is perfect an no one can see everything." | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:15 | comment | added | Cerbrus | @stenehall: Are you volunteering for mod elections, when they open again? It's impossible to catch all bad content. A humongous amount of it gets edited out already, but there will always be content that slips through the net. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:47 | comment | added | stenehall | @JonClements Nor have I ever claimed that SO censor. I simply said that SO removes what they feel is noise. But far from all noise is removed and far from all gender excluding language is removed. And just removing the noise will never teach the people contributing to the noise what they did wrong. I.e. if the gender excluding language had been removed without the "This would've been easier if I was a boy ..." comment posted. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:47 | comment | added | Jon Clements Mod | @stenehall everyone in that comment exchange was aware of its contents before it was removed and reasons were given as to why it was. It's been brought up again because the original question is missing context without it. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:45 | comment | added | stenehall | @JonClements A major problem with moving the discussion is that it gets hidden away. That the people that should read it doesn't and by that no improvement will come. Had the original noise not been removed the original poster would maybe have at least thought about it a second and then it would have been over. Removing the noise means that the poster never gets to reflex over it. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:44 | comment | added | user6445533 | @stenehall I guess so. But with the current organizational structure an improvement in this regard seems to be unlikely. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:44 | comment | added | Jon Clements Mod | You'll also find that we're not "censoring" this question, nor have we locked/deleted it | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:41 | comment | added | Jon Clements Mod | @stenehall I think it's clear from the comments I inserted into the original post - the moderator was not unwilling to discuss it - it didn't belong in comments on the post. They gave clear instructions as to where it could be discussed - hence this post. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:40 | comment | added | Cerbrus | @stenehall: "it might not have been an ideal action from OP": Making this about "gender" is far from an idea action. The edits were never about gender. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:38 | comment | added | stenehall | @Patrice Also, want to note that I in no way meant that any of this have been harassment. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:37 | comment | added | Patrice | @stenehall and see, i have less issues with the action taken by OP on the main site than the tone of this post. There is an air of melodrama around the whole thing atm, which almost turns the whole discussion in a joke | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:33 | comment | added | stenehall | @ftor then maybe SO could have clearer guidelines about what is ok and not ok and try to enforce them? Right now it seems like Mods remove what they consider noise without having specific reasons they can point to. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:31 | comment | added | stenehall | @Patrice ok, I follow. While I can agree that it might not have been an ideal action from OP it at least was an action. So many just ignore it or try to explain it away. I've reported sexist harassment on SO before and it's been dealt with in a good way from SO. But sometimes you act for the right reason but in the wrong way. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:30 | comment | added | user6445533 | @stenehall 100% agree. However, on SO people from dozens of cultural environments and different socialization come together. I guess it is futile to discuss social issues here. You'll never get a consensus. It is really sad because this is such an important issue - but that is the reality. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:25 | comment | added | Cerbrus | @stenehall: "But if we want to change what kind of language is used and make people aware of what type of language they use." As Madara answered, SO is not the place for that. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:24 | comment | added | stenehall | @Cerbrus It might be true that the original action from the Mod wasn't based on gender. But if we want to change what kind of language is used and make people aware of what type of language they use. What else can we do? | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:23 | comment | added | Patrice | @stenehall seems i wasn't cleae. I meant the basic assumptions of this question (that the removal of that text and what followed was based because of gender) are wrong. Now, if you encounter REAL gemder bias/harassment... Please flag/act appropriately. Not what happened. I'm sympathetic to the cause,but this isnt a battle for said cause. This is just an exercise in nonsense | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:15 | comment | added | Cerbrus | "A post about gender equality gets so many down votes. I'd say that clearly shows that there's a problem." True, there is a problem. The problem is that the OP is making assumptions while the actions on their answer have nothing to do with gender. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:14 | comment | added | Epodax | What are you talking about? The issue here is NOT THE GENDER, off-topic text was removed because it was off-topic, OP comes to meta and wants to discuss why her text was removed because we "censor" her, this is plainly not true and which is most likely the reason she is being down voted. If she instead had posted a question "Hey guys, I think there's a problem with X, what can we do about it?" The reception would most likely be different, please STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT A SOCIAL ISSUE. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:13 | comment | added | stenehall | "Nothing to do with gender... All to do with "this isn't the place for such issues"." Not sure I follow here. Are you saying that this post doesn't belong to Meta? Then were should it be? "Q&A for meta-discussion of the Stack Exchange family of Q&A websites" seems to suggest that Meta is exactly the place to put this. | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:11 | comment | added | Patrice | Nothing to do with gender... All to do with "this isn't the place for such issues". 100%with you, no gender language should be something we strive for. I prefer mods to spend time on more useful things | |
Sep 13, 2016 at 11:09 | history | answered | stenehall | CC BY-SA 3.0 |