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Recently I have encountered a situation with my 14yo brother. He is just getting started with iOS development. Before, he did a bit of JS on Khan Academy and Karel. He is not a native English speaker - some documentation is hard to read for him, as he doesn't know some terms. Naturally, he keeps asking me questions and I am trying to be as helpful as possible.

I can't be available for him 24/7, so I told him (repeatedly) that SO, documentation and Google are his best friends. Obviously, sometimes, he doesn't know what to look for, because he doesn't have the technical jargon ready-to-use. Mostly all the questions he's asking me would be very much likely quickly marked as "unclear what you're asking" or "too broad", or simply downvoted to negative infinity.

I have once seen that a question was asked on SO, where the OP specifically mentioned "I am 13 years old and am starting with dev" and all the responses were really kind, even though the question was "poor" - the question was closed eventually, but the comments were pointing to helpful sources and even had explanations of, for other programmers, obvious things. I wouldn't want if SO felt like elite society to young prospective coders, but at the same time, telling them to write their age is not bulletproof. Also, I do not want to endorse explosion of low quality questions, I just see bad feedback in instant downvoting and closing of questions without explaining it to that person, especially if it's a kid. I know, technically speaking, all users are endorsed to use comment section for explaining why they downvoted and proposed closing. But we also know that in some cases it just isn't happening.

My question is - how can we improve the experience for these young kids so that they feel welcome and are educated without negative feedback? In the long run, that's what we want, right? To bring up next generations of programmers that know how to search and ask good questions.

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    There is a legal age limit on SO - 13. Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:19
  • 25
    "...SO, documentation and Google are his best friends." Try telling him that in reverse order. Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:19
  • 36
    The law says that minors under 13yo are at risk of becoming PHP developers if allowed access to adult sites like SO. Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:20
  • He should start with this.
    – Omar
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:20
  • There's two kinds of feeback here, Up/Down Votes and Close Votes - I have zero problem adding a Close Vote to a question that doesn't meed the standards..whether I add a DV to it is a secondary matter. If I feel the OP is making an earnest (although poor attempt) I'll often take pity and omit it. But note that this is perilously close to requiring Comments and that's NOT going to happen.
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:28
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    "the OP specifically mentioned "I am 13 years old and am starting with dev"" - I would edit that out if I saw it, it's irrelevant to whether or not the question is actually valuable.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:38
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    Wether or OP is 13, 50, @MartinJames or a Pink unicorn from space has no bearing on the quality of the question.
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:54
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    @Magisch note that, before the OP edit, the minor in question was 12yo. There are possibly legal issues with assisting with problems posted by minors ineligible for an SO account, (IANAL). That aside, if it's a good question, I can answer it, and there's no obvious reason why it should not be answered, I will, if I have time :) Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 14:45
  • @MartinJames I wasn't disagreeing with you, just jokingly using you as part of the methaphor.
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 14:47
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    @Magisch OK:) I..umm.. . am disconnecting my webcam and I'm not wearing my unicorn suit ever again:( Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 14:50
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    Also, please note the large number of mendacious liars on SO. If some concession was made re. explaining stuff to kids, every student who wants a turnkey, copypasta homework answer would immediately become 10 years younger. Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 14:52
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    He is not a native English speaker - some documentation is hard to read for him, as he doesn't know some terms. There is both the English Language & Usage SE (link goes directly to the technology tag) and English Language Learners SE. There are also three other Stack Overflow sites in different languages: Spanish, Portuguese, and на русском.
    – BSMP
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 16:08
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    "he doesn't have the technical jargon ready-to-use" -> Perhaps the best way to fix this is to buy him a programming book and make sure he reads it from cover to cover? The internet is a wonderful place, but no amount of Google, SO, or "tutorials" will replace a solid book written by a knowledgeable expert with good exercises designed to teach the brain the twisted and complicated world of programming. Many books are translated by the way. Also note there is a BIG difference in quality, so research the book (anything with "learn X in Y minutes" in the title has a 105% of being garbage). Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 18:14
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    Related on MSE: How can a noob ask questions about how to start with this cool stuff?
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 19:56
  • Actually, I'm currently only 12, and I've earned 812 reputation. My dad is a programmer himself, and I've learned almost everything from him. I would say 812 is pretty good for a 12 year old :). If you look at my profile, my title is "Game Developer at Meltdown", but Meltdown is a gaming company I made on my own! I've helped PHD Professors with 3D scenes and physics over the course of a few months!
    – Halo
    Commented Mar 11, 2022 at 14:48

5 Answers 5

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Well, it's not just the kids. I am 19 years old and I joined SO about 6-8 months back and even I faced that massive down-voting problem. But then the down-voting was due to one of the following reasons.

  • My questions were too primitive (sounded like I am trying to learn from the beginning).
  • The question already existed on SO (similar)
  • I usually ignored the questions which came up as suggestions (while framing a post). But eventually, I learnt that some of the answers in those posts had what I was looking for even though the question sounded different.
  • My questions lacked code. I was only posting to learn some theory.

and so on...

These are the problem most of the new SO users face and are usually not associated with kids alone.

If your brother's age satisfies the requirement, he may do the following to gain a good control over the working of the site and some confidence for sure.

  • Join the site and surf the existing questions instead of making a new post. Well, according to me some of those really primitive (low quality) questions were asked and accepted on SO long back. Some of them even have 50+ up-votes. This really means that no question is stupid but the thing is that the question has been posted long back by someone else and today it is not appropriate to be asked based on the time we are in.
  • If not directly on SO- Google Search. Nowadays Kids are familiar with Google and I have observed that any programming related search on Google shows links to SO post as the 1-3(maybe 4) results on the first page. So everyone can easily get to SO questions using something as simple as Google. You could teach your brother to Google.
  • Books as simple as Head First Series. Try these. You may have to put in some effort by yourself. Who could understand a brother better than a brother?

Does this sound cool?

Comments:

  • After earning a reputation close to 50, he could use the comment feature to comment his doubts on related posts (believe me, he will be familiar with SO by the time he reaches reputation 50).

Have you tried this as an option to SO (certainly not as amazing as SO though)?

And some of these articles? - http://lifehacker.com/how-and-why-to-teach-your-kids-to-code-510588878 - http://www.edudemic.com/the-three-best-free-coding-websites-for-kids/

Finally, he needs to be emotionally strong (to handle SO at least) to take up something like programming. He may be more disheartened at a failing program rather than down-votes on SO. Programming isn't as easy as managing your questions on SO.

A programmer needs to take time and try to get his questions answered through some book or existing contents and videos on the Internet. Believe me, most of the things we want are already present on the Internet.

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    Code isn't a requirement for questions.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 17:52
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feel welcome

are educated

without negative feedback

That's a bit too much to ask, isn't it? Stack Overflow doesn't really deal in helping with the baby steps involved with learning to program.

If someone doesn't know enough English to make themselves clear, nor the jargon specific to programming and even less so to their particular area of interest, they don't know what they want nor need to ask and thus are going to ask unclear/too broad questions.

There's only so many ways you can explain that without sounding "negative".

Downvoting and close-voting is a not-so-subtle way to tell a user "Your question in its current form isn't really what we're looking for". That's not negative, although it could be perceived as such. If someone's looking for one-on-one guidance and someone who will patiently explain from the ground up what they're doing wrong, they need a mentor, not Stack Overflow.

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  • It's not about the babysteps. It's about making sure they understand what was wrong. Often times it boils down to score -7 and closed for "too broad". Then what? That was it? Sorry kid, bad attempt, try again? But how, if no explanation was given? Also, I didn't say "doesn't speak English", I said "isn't a native speaker". That's difference in thinking.
    – Michal
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:38
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    You're absolutely right about the mentoring. This is not a mentoring site. But you're also right, that it is absolutely not-so-subtle.
    – Michal
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:39
  • Right. Nobody also said that experts need to deal with it. We don't need Jon Skeet to explain basic things. But a user with rep around 500 can. It could as well be part of review queue for lower level rep users. That's why I wanted to open a discussion.
    – Michal
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:46
  • @Michal so actually your request has little to do with age, but is (pardon my paraphrasing) something like "Can we get people to elaborate on down- and closevotes"?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:49
  • Might as well, I came to think about it having my little brother in mind. But yes, that paraphrasing is valid.
    – Michal
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:50
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    @Michal -7 and closed means "Stop asking like this or we will have you banned in short order" more like. Automatic question bans are a thing.,
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:57
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    @Magisch the question is if someone could explain what "like this" means.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:59
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    @CodeCaster We have explainations for that - help center How to Ask How to Answer
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 13:59
  • @Magisch that still does not explain what exactly is wrong with one particular post that has been down- or closevoted. Please pay attention to the topic instead of providing general links, which is exactly what this question is about: specific feedback.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 14:01
  • @CodeCaster If someone can't infer why their post is bad or make a coherent argument to the contrary from that they don't really need to be on SO
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 14:02
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    The best thing an experienced programmer can teach a new programmer is how to know when to ask for help, and how to do so when it's needed. If you teach them just those two skills, they have all they need to do the rest themselves.
    – user50049
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 14:46
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    @Tim sure, but when learning to program you generally don't know what to ask.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 14:49
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    @CodeCaster Then you need a tutorial, not stack overflow. And beeing new to programming is no excuse for not reading the rules and subsequently polluting the site with noise.
    – Magisch
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 14:50
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Unfortunately, Stack Overflow just does not work well for beginning programmers, regardless of age. (Although some emotional maturity is certainly a boon to successful participation.) The problem is exactly the one you have identified:

Mostly all the questions he's asking me would be very much likely quickly marked as "unclear what you're asking" or "too broad", or simply downvoted to negative infinity.

These are the types of questions that beginning programmers often have. They want to know what language they should learn first. They want to know what their first project should be in that language. They want to know why every line ends with a semicolon. They get frustrated after trying for a half-hour to get their toy app to compile, and dump their code on Stack Overflow begging for help. The system is just not designed around answering these types of questions, and they are not going to be well-received. A Q&A site cannot provide tutorials, which is what beginning programmers really need. Your advice to your brother and other young programmers should be to get a book on a language that sounds interesting to them.

By "not well-received," of course, I mean that they will be closed and downvoted. Rude comments are inappropriate, as always, and should be flagged. You seem to be advocating that we avoid closing these questions, or at least defer the closing of these questions, but that just doesn't work. As long as questions remain open, they attract answers, and that is precisely the effect we are trying to avoid.

I just see bad feedback in instant downvoting and closing of questions without explaining it to that person, especially if it's a kid.

In fact, this is exactly the point of instantly downvoting and closing questions. It provides immediate, unambiguous feedback. It is much more confusing to have one or two people comment that the question is off-topic, but then also receive an answer. Moreover, the closure reasons that appear in a yellow box underneath the question are already well-explained in a much more constructive tone than we can expect from one-off comments. If you think those explanations can be improved, please post a feature request to that end. But there is just no point in having people post comments that regurgitate the information already provided.

The user on the other end of the wire being a kid is of course irrelevant. It wouldn't matter if they were a kid or a dog. Everyone is held to the same standard on Stack Overflow. It is a meritocracy. If you ask good questions, provide good answers, and otherwise contribute constructively to the community, then you are very welcome here, whether you are 13 or 31 or 131. Many young programmers have found this to be extremely welcoming and encouraging. Here, they are not looked down upon merely because of their age; they are judged on their skills and ability.

It is possible to learn a lot as a beginning programmer on Stack Overflow, but you have to be a tenacious self-starter. Most people are not. The people that can learn things on Stack Overflow are the same people that used to, before the Internet was invented, learn just by hacking around and figuring things out for themselves. Richard Feynman taught himself trigonometry, calculus, and other advanced mathematical topics at the age of 15. Obviously this is unusual; the rest of the normal people need guidance.

telling them to write their age is not bulletproof

Of course it isn't. But the problem here isn't really grammar or syntax. A young person who struggles with the language is no different from someone who hails from a distant corner of the globe and first learned English two weeks ago. All content here is collaboratively edited, so these problems can be easily and quickly remediated. If they are asking good-quality, on-topic questions, then they are good. I see no evidence of age-related discrimination. If there is discrimination against beginner programmers, it is for the reasons I have enumerated above and decidedly unrelated to their age.

how can we improve the experience for these young kids so that they feel welcome and are educated without negative feedback?

Well, negative feedback is how the world works and can be just as valuable as positive feedback. If you are old enough to use the Internet (age 13 according to US law and the ones that Stack Overflow follows), then you are old enough to take negative feedback in stride. Remember that it is the user's responsibility to follow the rules, regardless of age. If you walk into your aunt's house with muddy shoes, she's going to provide plenty of negative feedback regarding your behavior. Similarly, new users need to learn how to search and ask good questions on their own. We provide as much help as we can, if they are willing to accept it. There is little more that we can do short of literally holding their hand while they do it. And that is just not how the Internet works. This is one of the major advantages of a traditional education system.

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In my opinion, If you don't get it, don't use it. Use it later when you are older and get it more. I'm 13, and I find it just fine. But for others it may be different, and in my opinion they should just join when they are ready.

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Language is important. For Communication and to make question clear, user should write well with brief explanation

Before posting question on SO, user should look at following points

  1. User has made maximum efforts for solution with proper R&D (In my case, it means searching and trying with all efforts, Just not to look at code and think it will not work).
  2. In SO, all basic level questions are answered, So search for similar question on SO, so that your question will not be marked as duplicate

  3. Before posting on SO, see some well upvoted questions about how they ask question with code, and how other users understand your question easily without any doubt. You can also go through SO Documentation about how to post a question.

Bullet points:

  1. User who reads your question should understand clearly, what you gonna say, along with code and useful links (If any R&D or Documentation)

  2. Question should be unique, Unique here refers which is not answered on SO or question is not of basic level. (It doesn't mean question should look different with different fonts and colors)

Question running in mind of beginners:

How could I know my question is of basic level?

Don't think beginners question will be of expert level. If you are a beginner, your question will also be of basic level. And basic level questions answers can be easily gained with proper search on Google

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