1110

I'm seeing a rapid trend towards worse and worse question quality. It gets to the point where I'm asking myself "Why did I even help this guy? He neither has the will nor the capacity to understand the answer; I have just been wasting my time". That happens more and more often lately and is pretty frustrating.

It could be that this is the filter bubble effect of the tags I've chosen on my home page (mostly web development stuff). Maybe other topics aren't overrun by what I perceive as completely clueless people who ask the same basic questions again and again and again and can't be bothered with actively participating in getting their problem solved (searching, researching, posting their code, stating their intentions, listening to advice, and giving feedback).

I'm getting the feeling Stack Overflow has made a big step in the "Mechanical Turk for programming assignments" direction lately. It's always been something like that, but it's starting to get really bad now.

What's your view on the state of affairs in Stack Overflow - is your perception similar to mine? If yes, how are you dealing with it, other than retreating? If no, what do you do against creeping cynicism (because that's what really worries me here)?

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    Some of the answers to this question (though it's not the same question) is quite relevant and worth a read - meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/251758/…. Personally, I do feel the quality is quite low of late. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 11:58
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    You may be right, but it's worth keeping in mind that humans always perceive things to be getting worse, irrespective of if they are or not; I've filed a bug report. For example people believe society is getting more violent while actually we are living in the most peaceful time in human history Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 12:00
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    @RichardTingle Maybe it's not getting worse, but good questions are definitely few and far between - certainly in the web technologies sections. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 12:06
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    @Richard, that's not a matter of the current generation wrongly perceiving the state of the previous generation. This phenomenon is pretty recent (I think it started 6 months ago as far as I am concerned). I'm active in several tags, and it really seems the average quality of the questions has gone from tolerable to ridiculous almost overnight (and is not getting back up). Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 13:10
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    Same experience with Java / Android. Personally I think it's ever since The Summer of Love where we decided we should be "nicer" ... with the last 6 months being a nightmare. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 13:30
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    This reminds me of the "remember when 4chan was good" meme Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:25
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    In Python, even FAQs are not closed. It seems that a fresh perspective is needed every hour that a faq is posted.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 16:07
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    When people do not remove their upvoted answer despite knowing that the answer is wrong, there is not much left to guess about the quality of the site.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 16:41
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    Repwhores answer faqs and refuse to vote to close. Oh my! internet dollars. It's not because of the poor questions, but because of these repwhores that the quality of site is going down.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 2:35
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    This is perfect response to Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late?
    – Satpal
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 3:26
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    I have to agree with @devnull. I've recently come back to the python tag and it is blowing my mind. There are even up-votes for questions that make no sense, wrong answers up-voted and selected, and a reluctance to answer to comments by clarifying questions/answers. I with my daily vote quota was higher. There may well be a correlation between bad quality and tag popularity, reflected in the rise of popularity of SO as a whole. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:15
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    Throwing in my $0.02 here, but I think the problem is that SO is perceived as a first line of enquiry by people. I'm still fairly new to SE as my (cough totally meaningless) rep indicates, but in my question tags I'm consistently seeing the same type of I don't really understand what I'm doing, fix my code questions. The code in question is totally devoid of any kind of knowledge about the architecture in which it is going to be deployed. Am I to understand that I should just keep linking to the basic documentation for these people?
    – JamesENL
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 8:10
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    @Izkata, yes, it might be our own September That Never Ended. We still would have to determine what has changed last year, though. It's not like AOL has started to serve Stack Overflow as their default portal. Wait... Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 18:22
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    I shocked by the current Hot Qutestion. Is this reflecting the level of SO users? I mean this is just basic mathematics, has mathematics been dropped from programming course?
    – Bolu
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 13:37
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    @Bolu That question having more than 100 upvotes discourages me so much that I almost want to quit the site. If I didn't use it for asking questions of my own, I probably would.
    – durron597
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 18:26

50 Answers 50

481

The question quality will continue to decline as long as we continue to reward the bad questions with answers.

I'm willing to repeat an unpopular view here: We need to stop rewarding answers to bad questions if we want to stop bad questions.

Many bad questions on this site get good or mediocre answers from well-meaning (and/or repwhoring) users. The people asking the questions go away happy: they have their answers, even if their questions are closed or downvoted into oblivion.

To stop the bad behavior, we have to stop encouraging the bad behavior. We need to stop answering bad questions, and we need to downvote the answers to bad questions. The downvote tooltip says "This answer is not useful." Answers (even correct ones) are not useful if they contribute to the demise of the site.

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    As you well know, I completely agree with you here. As I just commented on @devnull's A, I personally think no rep should be awarded to closed questions. By all means, leave them there ... just roll back any reputation. 5 people with significant reputation decided the question had no value and closed it. Take away the reward for bad behavior and see what happens. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:05
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    @BrianRoach: Sounds like a great idea. Did you ever submit this as a feature request in meta? Possibly amend or extend it to: "roll back any reputation gained from a closed or negatively voted question". Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:58
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    @Denis And the post would immediately be flooded with downvotes.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:58
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    @devnull: I certainly wouldn't get a down vote from my end. And it doesn't really matter, does it? It's meta. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:59
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    @Denis I actually just came up with the idea :-D But I agree it would get downvoted into oblivion. We might hurt someone's feelings by taking away their imaginary internet points. Don't get me wrong, there's some edge cases where this really might not be perfect but personally I feel we're well past the point of worrying about edge cases. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 16:14
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    Does answering these bad questions really hurt the community though? I think slamming newbies for bad questions is what hurts SO. Bad ?s still are generating traffic and it really comes down to the user search when it comes to querying what you are looking for. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 5:29
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    I think you're right, but the way SO is currently gamified creates incentives to do the opposite. Consider a person like me. As you can guess, I'm quite new to SO. I actually read it for years without participating because I found it too strange. (I could edit comments, but not make my own? What?) When I did decide to start participating, I found ridiculous limitations like my inability to post a screenshot to support a question. So what did I do? I answered questions -- any questions -- in a desperate bid to gain rep just so I could use the basic features of the site. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:59
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    In addition to getting regular amounts of rep for answering bad or duplicate questions, the Reversal badge creates additional incentive to reward these questions with an answer...
    – itsjeyd
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 7:37
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    @yardpenalty answering bad questions with good answers only encourages more bad questions.
    – jwenting
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 6:49
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    It would be nice if there were a few filters we could optionally apply, disabled by defauly: 1) don't show me questions from people who've been around less then n day; 2)don't show me questions with a score of < n; 3)don't show me questions from people with a reputation of < n. That way, you can answer poorly received questions from new users with a bad score if you want to earn some points, or you can instead choose to surf/search for only quality ones you might actually learn something from.
    – user146043
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 21:05
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    For people that toss around words like repwhoring and imaginary internet points you guys seem strangely obsessed with not awarding rep for certain classes of questions. I agree with @yardpenalty not answering questions hurts SO, slamming newbies hurts SO, being flippant hurts SO. You improve curation you don't try to discourage people from asking questions that absolutely defeats the purpose of this site.
    – nsfyn55
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 23:58
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    @CullenJ On a tutorial site or a discussion forum that behavior would be altruistic and worthy of reward. Within the context of SO, however, the behavior is the opposite of what is desired. The answer is likely to help only the OP, because we depends on good searchability to allow future visitors to find useful question/answer pairs. StackOverflow's usefulness to the larger community requires both sides of the equation : good answers and good questions. Commented May 2, 2014 at 19:05
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    @GeorgeCummins That makes sense to me; I'm just wondering if we should look at it as an opportunity to turn a bad poster into a good (or at least slightly more informed/experienced) poster. Although I suppose whether they'll actually learn from one such experience is debatable. Commented May 2, 2014 at 19:12
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    @Yawar Your close. The purpose of the site is to build a community that in turn yields a library of useful questions. When people's questions are dismissed out of hand or a first time asker is flamed for not asking the perfect question that endangers the community. That hurts SO.
    – nsfyn55
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 2:32
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    Punishing answers is not an answer to improving questions.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jul 14, 2014 at 18:11
317

Some thoughts from a new user...

I tend to search for answers before asking and for years have found the answer I needed and never created an account. About a month ago I was struggling with a particularly ugly problem and happened to find the perfect detailed answer. I wanted to upvote the answer, but was informed I needed an account. So I created an account and then found out I needed 15 rep points. Tried to leave a comment - needed 50 rep points.

So I've kept it in the back of my mind to eventually go back once I have points. I looked into getting points by answering questions, but any that I know the answer to are either already answered or dross - or both.

Then I figured I'd just ask questions as they came up, but yet again, the answer is usually found as I'm writing up the question. I had one good one - but then realized it was better in the software's forum. Finally, just yesterday I had my first question - and it's more of a "given my unique setup that eliminates these obvious options, what do you suggest?" Which feels vaguely off topic. It hasn't been downvoted and I have some great suggestions now...but doesn't seem particularly useful to others.

I guess my point is that it's HARD to enter this community. I understand why, the idiotic questions are painful to read and the only appropriate response is "learn how to program". However, the current setup also precludes new members joining. I'm not a guru by any stretch, so my ability to answer good questions is limited. And given I follow the general rule of "research first", most of my questions are answered without needing to ask.

So, I'm left with a piddly reputation that allows for nothing. Understandable - but annoying none the same. Ah - but I CAN bug you with every droll question that pops into my head and also answer these stupid questions. THAT will get me rep easily and quickly.

You see the problem? It's extremely hard for a somewhat legit person to enter the site...but relatively easy for others willing to lower themselves to asking and answering stupid questions.

Not offering a solution - just an observation.

This was linked from another forums site - perhaps including it...somewhere...might help? http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

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    In some sense this is true, another upvote and I'll be able to do the same; another 7 and I can comment. Then again it's taken me a month to find a suitable question - that happened to get 2 upvotes. So, at a rate of one upvote every 2 weeks I'm looking at being able to upvote myself in May and being able to comment in August. Now obviously this isn't taking into account other factors (a good answer tomorrow might put me over the top rather quickly). But it still points out a rather real temptation to answer stupid/easy questions because I might get the rep I need to do X.
    – LadyCygnus
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 17:55
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    For me personally - I won't care much about rep once I get the ability to upvote that original great answer...HOWEVER - I'm sure there are others who want the ability to do some other high rep action, or who are just competitive, who will take the easy road.
    – LadyCygnus
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 18:00
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    @Tomalak - disagree. That's how it USED to be. The ability to accrue righteous rep is inverse to the activity of the feckless mob.
    – Smandoli
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 21:34
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    LadyCygnus gives a good analysis of how the dynamics have changed. There's still opportunity to shine, but it is diluted. @Neolisk, your point is encouraging; but like Tomalak, you are minimizing this deleterious shift -- which is very real, and which is the point of the OP.
    – Smandoli
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 2:10
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    @Smandoli It's been a very long time since I was a low rep user. Almost six years. Of course I don't know how it "feels" like these days. All I can state is: the intent behind the hurdles, the point that they seem to work pretty well in this regard and the point that it still takes no effort for me to make somewhere between 50 and 100 points a day with fresh answers, if I really try to (not bragging, just pointing out that it is possible to overcome the tiny hurdles that guard immediate site interaction from newly registered users).
    – Tomalak
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 6:04
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    another thought...I'm not a guru. Although I'm really good at what I do, it typically doesn't involve a deep level of knowledge. As an example, although I've used Perl for 10 years 70% of what I've done has been file IO and regex. I might come up with a decent question or two, but I doubt I'll ever answer a good question. It's hard for a mid-level to get started. We care about keeping this site useful and our own Rep (not rep).
    – LadyCygnus
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 14:32
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    Wouldn't this site want mid-level users who are actively trying to solve problems to post good questions to challenge the high-level users? Yet it seems like this is the group that find it hardest to get started. I have no problem being a lurker getting the random question answered - all this is observation since the question was asked. Note - I might be missing something being new.
    – LadyCygnus
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 14:40
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    @LadyCygnus: I completely agree. Although I would love to contribute answers, I am not experienced enough as a developer to answer the complex questions that the experienced Stack Overflow users might consider valuable. Moreover, several of my own questions have arisen not because I have not done my research but because the resources I have found are either too simple or too complex for my current level of understanding. Even though certain questions may seem irrelevant or trivial to a guru, their presence is what makes Stack Overflow valuable to me at this point in my career. Commented May 2, 2014 at 6:43
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    You seem to assume that I think a mid-level or beginner question is a bad question. I don't. Question quality is not linked to the level of experience. StackOverflow is designed to attract people with a certain mindset, not with a certain minimum of experience. Unfortunately it seems to attract more and more people with a bad mindset lately, so there some correction must be made to the design.
    – Tomalak
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:37
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    This is a good answer and it kinda gets at the natural progression of the site: all the obvious, important questions for domains that have been available for years have already been asked.
    – AndrewS
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 16:03
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    One statement in defense of the stupid questions is that the search facilities here really suck. I can search for a question I know I answered, using my ID as one of the search arguments, and not be able to find it many times. And in general, when I'm looking for a "previous answer" that I know I've seen recently I can only find it maybe 30% of the time. Google does better searching SO than does SO's own search "tool".
    – Hot Licks
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 0:42
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    LadyCygnus, you are my Champion... I don't have to write the answer you crafted, and I fully subscribe to everything you wrote. Maybe the site could offer another track to enter the community via some sort of sponsorship by power users for serious people like you or me? Commented May 8, 2014 at 7:49
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    I agree that there is an incentive for new users to ask and answer crap questions. There is also a perverse incentive for the rep junkies to answer stupid questions. We need to fix the rep system so its less of a game to see who gets the highest rep and have people sit at a general level (up and down as they improve/dis improve).
    – Tim Ring
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 11:36
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    @LadyCygnus Bravo! I'm also "relatively" new to SO, but since I don't use innovative framworks or experimental languages, most questions and answers are already there... so, if I want rep, I'll answer stupid questions for an accepted tick or an upvote. Gurus can keep getting their 200 rep per day, newbies don't stand a chance. Unless they game the system and therefore quality plummets. I am ashamaed of one of my answers as a Stundent of Computer Sciences but dare not delete because it represents half my reputation. :(
    – Daren
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 14:14
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    @Daren and LadyCygnus - I too am a professional user who uses SO on a very regular basis (even before creating an account), but rarely do I do anything that generates rep. Most of the time when I run into a problem that I'm having difficulty with, I'll Google it and look for results in the official docs and on SO. Usually I find the answer or at least something close enough to be useful in figuring it out. All of the rep that I do have is from half of the 19 answers that I have posted. I always try to put effort into the answers that I give, but the results are not predictable based on that.
    – CptRobby
    Commented Jun 16, 2014 at 20:17
195

In my view, SO made the jump and became the zero-cost version of Mechanical Turk aeons ago. I stopped visiting the site twice in disgust, and more than a day passes of late where I wonder why I'm still around, so I suppose you can say my reaction is retreating from the stench.

Fwiw, I made a modest feature request a long while back — namely, please show the rep of the original asker on the questions list — in the hopes that I (and assuredly others if this thread or a few other recent threads are anything to go by) can discriminate between sewage I've no desire to read and questions I might be interested in. (The reaction I got was discouraging, to put it mildly.)

Since then, SO opened the flood gates to more newcomers, which is their business at the end of the day. It began to accept code questions without the slightest bit effort or research as valid, discussed and eventually dropped and refactored various close reasons, and even eliminated close altogether in an effort to nurse these newcomers.

The problem is by no means new, btw, as evidenced by this four year old thread. The number of users who are full of it might be, however, if this graph is anything to go by:

first vote

(Image credit: Daniel Renshaw.)

I think it speaks mountains about the mood on the site. The site's owners should probably take note, but I doubt they will because traffic is king, quality and community be damned.

To be honest, my very personal wish still is to be able to coexist with the sewage. If I were able to know if a question is asked by a low-rep user instead of whichever random high-rep editor fixed his or her post, I'd be happy enough, not click, and move on, while leaving the sewage to whichever rep-whore is willing to deal with it.

What I'm left with instead is, basically, no reasonable vote-to-close option (I'd like the "demonstrate some minimal understanding of the problem" close reason back), and an invitation by the powers that be to simply down-vote the awful. And boy, do I down vote. It's almost the only thing I do of late — often times after barely reading the hideous wall of spaghetti before me. Whether it'll be useful in the long run is another question entirely — I for one do not think it will be enough.

Editing to add, seeing two of the comments from below… There seems to be a question ban that doesn't fire early or often enough. If that is the problem according how about adding some kind of "This low quality content is not welcome on Stack Overflow" flag?

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    Good grief, man: if you see a horrible mess of a question, vote to close as "unclear". That misguided off-topic reason was being abused by idiots who thought it meant they had to get rid of questions from years back that were holding up a huge pile of duplicates - that wasn't just bad for folks with the same problem, it was actively counter-productive to slowing the flood of new, crappy questions. Y'all never needed an excuse to close crap - the problem is that there's more crap than there are folks who can close it.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 17:01
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    @Shog9: it's all I do of late. More often than not without bothering to read a question in full. But as I write in the last paragraph, I do not think it'll be enough to keep the dam from cracking. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 17:02
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    Before someone jumps in with "It used to cost rep to downvote a Q and when that changed is when it started to go down" ... sure, that explains the initial drop. It does not, however, explain the continued decline nor the cliff off which we've plunged since the start of this year. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 17:08
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    @Shog9: what's currently missing is a clear-cut, polite (or not so polite) close reason along the lines "Please learn to code, read the docs, google your problem, and then come back asking questions". Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 17:18
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    Because that shouldn't be a close reason, @Denis. Close reasons are intended to be directed at questions not users. We do have something like that: stackoverflow.com/help/question-bans - we just need it to kick in sooner.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 17:21
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    @Shog9: Seems like a trivial fix to me: add a "User is a n00b and should get question-banned" flag… (or whatever polite variation thereof mods can think of). :-) Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 17:25
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    Any pervasive, systemic problem for which the solution is "have the moderators handle it" will inevitably continue to be a pervasive, systemic problem. There is no reasonable number of moderators who could conceivably handle a problem this size - anything short of leveraging the entire population of downvoters on Stack Overflow is destined to be too little, too late.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 17:31
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    @Shog9 I disagree with you first comment in this thread. Crappy questions cannot be gotten rid of easily because there are very few folks willing to close those. That's the reason crap continues to flourish. Make upvotes cost a bit of rep, even 1, and then things might improve.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 17:34
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    If you believe folks are asking questions because they're trying to get rep, you're being a bit naive, @devnull.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 17:38
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    if you change the graph y coordinates from the baseline value of 70% to 0% , it doesn't look so bad
    – CRABOLO
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 3:16
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    A surprising number of bad questions are asked by users with reasonable rep, though.
    – Warren Dew
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 3:58
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    Interesting chart, I wonder what happened in early 2011 to start the trend. Would love to see more data. @Stilly.stack changing the baseline to 0 would effectively obscure what is a pretty clear trend. It wouldn't make anything better, it'd just look that way. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 11:50
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    @macke: Downvotes on questions were made cost-free in May 2011. Ever since, we learned to properly use them, so the percentage of questions with downvotes is naturally increasing as we are finally making sure crap gets cleaned up automatically. Remember, downvoted questions get deleted automatically if not answered, and downvoted questions count against a post ban. This graph makes me happy. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 12:44
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    But do the downvotes actually work? I mean, every crap question still gets an answer (or 4) even when downvoted just because there's always someone willing to help the retard that seemingly hasn't discovered google yet ... which means the questions don't get deleted automatically, right?
    – SvenT23
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 9:48
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    I have very much noticed lately; as a professional programmer, if you ask a question that you couldn't reasonable solve by 30 mins on google, i.e. something hard; you get no responses. So basically it's dead for anything other than "how do I do x in jQuery".
    – Kong
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 7:45
174

Self-Filtering By Requiring a User-Name On New Accounts

One possible aid: Force each new user to create a user name rather than provide one for them.

The worst questions are asked by new users with default user-name of userNNNNNN. That suggests to me these folks are "drive-by" users looking for a quick answer without any willingness to put in the effort described in this Question.

Seriously, I suspect making the sign-up process require even the slightest bit more of a commitment would significantly improve the quality of new users and questions.

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    Why fool around with usernames? Make them enter a 42-digit prime number in order to complete the sign-up process. Huh?
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:56
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    @devnull Ironic comment, coming from a person who bothered to devise such a clever and creative username. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:59
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    I actually agree with you here. A vast majority of the terrible questions I see every day come from exactly these people, who appear to have picked up the framework (Spring Framework / Hibernate) with no idea how its actually supposed to work, and then dump their highly offensive code all over the front page and expect people to fix their problems for them
    – JamesENL
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 8:25
  • 83
    "Raise the barrier of entry a tiny bit" is a very good suggestion. I had a professor in university who was in charge of the mandatory 2nd semester group programming course who made a short, written java test a requirement for attending the course. This was justified as neccessary for evaluating the knowledge level of the students, to be able to better separate them into groups. He admitted later on that the test was mostly to filter out people who had no real interest in programming, as about a third of the students who signed up for the course didn't even show up to the test...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 10:09
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    @l4mpi Exactly. I'm not suggesting actively filtering new users but rather self-filtering by requiring some bit of effort on their part. Requiring them to invent and type a user-name is a good first step. The equivalent of my suggestion for that teacher would be requiring potential students to submit the bit of Java code but never bothering to look at the submissions. Merely making the submission is enough to self-filter out the utterly uncommitted persons. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 14:52
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    I respectfully disagree. It would have made zero difference to me. I looked at SO many years ago, and mostly ignored it simply because it seemed too academic for my needs, where I had primary interest in solving business problems through automated processes. I've returned to SO in the past couple months due to finding a problem related to this thread in other similar forums. This time, I joined; and the "username" was completely irrelevant. After 40+ years as a programmer, I doubt I could care less; and I suspect that others with similar background would mostly feel the same. Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 10:36
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    @user2338816: I don't think that Basil suggests that this will be a perfect filter. However a simple filter that reduces the problem significantly is a good idea I think. And the fact that it would have made zero difference to you is actually good - it's a sign that it wouldn't be a significant barrier to people who would be an asset to SO (unless you're saying you only post low quality questions). Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 15:24
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    What would stop people from creating user names like ";faiohjdlakjfadlkh"? Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 17:04
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    @ThisSuitIsBlackNot Nothing would stop a person from creating a user name like ";faiohjdlakjfadlkh". And how would that be any worse than "user5929393"? Even even a minority of "drive-by" users are deterred this minimal effort, then job done. Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 20:41
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    I didn't say it was worse. My point is, the amount of effort required to create a user name is the same as the amount of effort to bash on your keyboard randomly with a stick. Which is only slightly less than the amount of effort required to compose the crap questions you're trying to eliminate with your proposal. I don't see a user name requirement changing anything...the hurdle is just too low. Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 21:15
  • 3
    @ThisSuitIsBlackNot I never said my suggestion is a panacea. If it helps at all, it helps. I still wear my rain jacket even if I forgot to bring my rain hat. The point is that user-naming is one low hurdle that puts no stress/workload on a serious user while possibly keeping out some of the least serious people. Besides that, my suggestion was truly meant to stimulate similar ideas on how to raise the quality without burdening the well-intentioned and without becoming elitist. Commented May 1, 2014 at 1:16
  • 3
    New users are already required to register before asking a question. They are then presented with the "How to Ask" page and have to scroll to the bottom, check a box saying they read it, and click "Proceed". Considering that the "drive-by" users you mention already do all of this, I seriously doubt making them choose a user name would discourage them. Commented May 1, 2014 at 14:13
  • 2
    What about, if instead of a user name, you instead had them answer a short quiz? Especially for those with rep points below, say 100 (and thus this would still apply to myself since I think I'm just getting the hang of this). Could be as simple as "What type of question is appropriate for SO? a) Can you fix my code? b) Is Perl better than Lisp? c) How do you write a loop in Java? d) Why does HTML think “chucknorris” is a color? (the 2nd highest voted in HTML)
    – LadyCygnus
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 15:21
  • 1
    What @BasilBourque is saying is the sign up process is too automated at present and requires very little effort. If the sign in process required you to fill in a few mandatory fields (including username), then this would act as a deterrent to those who can't seem to be bothered to string a simple sentence together when asking questions.
    – user692942
    Commented May 10, 2014 at 11:02
  • 1
    Perhaps a more useful filtering, like a short quiz on the SO FAQ? However, I'd expect the first question after the quiz was instantiated would be "What are the answers to the SO FAQ quiz?". (Yes I realize this is a bit of a Catch-22 (but as catches go, it's the best there is))
    – msw
    Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 7:06
91

Here's the two examples discussed in this post:

https://answers.unity3d.com

https://www.parse.com/help


An excellent reference point here is the Unity3D forum (at answers.unity3d.com)

(I am or was a top ten member.)

Unity is very important commercially as it is now the main game platform, and the "answers" site used to be fantastic -- and indeed, very important commercially. Since, like many companies, Unity's stance was "oh, uh, we offer utterly no support because ....... we offer a Forum!" (Fair enough, it's a commercial decision.)

It's now complete crap and everyone with serious questions, has, abandoned it.

The site is now just riddled with the lowest possible quality questions.

If you're an SO user, and you're concerned about the "future of SO", I encourage you to just click on that link to, well, see the "future of SO" (as sad as that sounds).

Even if you're not a game engine programmer, or involved in software, just click on the link, and click "newest questions" to see the recent flow. Again even if you not a software engineer, you will immediately perceive the really, really notably low, remarkably low, quality of the fluffflood of questions.

For a few years there, many mods would scream "Just delete bad and duplicate questions"...

but nobody did it.

(And then ... who knows if it would make any difference if mods had done so?)

You can see literally years of discussion on it here,

http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/432710/meta-unity-answers-is-degrading-.html

and many other meta discussions there: long-time top mods just giving up, etc etc.

Indeed, if you bother to read through or glance through some of that material, it is a case study of a forum going to the dogs.

(I have no idea if this is, or is not, happening to SO, of if the "mechanisms of failure" are the same. I offer it as a fascinating reference point; an example of a once popular and excellent QA site which has gone to hell.)

Notice on that site ...... sundry proposals made by desperate keen users, as the site was slowly going to hell.

Notice proposals of every variety ...... technical, social, etc ..beginners sections, advanced sections, moralistic rules, actual legal remedy, etc etc.

(It's actually really - you could use the words "quite sad" - to see the decay from vibrant members desperately suggesting something, to, eventually, people saying (I quote) "fuck this" and leaving, to eventually people simply not showing up.)

Fascinating tidbit:

If I'm not mistaken, due to the insane popularity of Unity3D, that site is (I'd guess) the largest example of "A QA forum gone to hell."

Notice the overwhelmed Unity staff members (who consistently tried to do the best job possible before the Fall) - it's possible, people here on SO probing in to the whole issue, may wish to ask them questions, or whatever.

It's worth noting that the Unity site "is now dead, functionally" means: hence, if I post a serious advanced question, quite simply, nobody sees it. The flood of "ridiculously low quality" questions is overwhelming. So the site is not usable, not functioning, you can not get "answers" there.

(It costs something like US$2000 a year to be a professional Unity user; as a curiosity, it's actually commercially significant that the forum is now deadfluff.)

An interesting phenomenon: (I don't know if there's some equivalent here on SO). For awhile at the beginning of "the fall". More serious users would sort of PM each other "there's an interesting question here" regarding worthwhile questions. However I'd say this has just been abandoned; most people have given up and the fluffflow is just totally overwhelming.

Note that Unity3D, as a topic, in inherently "dangerous territory for fluffflow." The whole idea of Unity3D (if you're not a software engineer) is that it makes the very difficult, quite easy. Amazingly, you get brand-new programmers trying to learn programming, I mean from day 1, with a 3D rendering physics game engine ("!!"), which is kind of a recipe for disaster in terms of the QA site aspect. So, that issue tends to make the "answers.unity3d collapse" more of an extreme example; perhaps you don't suffer that so much on SO, I don't know.

{I think - I'm not an expert - the sort of moral equivalent on SO is "fuckers asking homework questions". As far as I can see on SO, those of you who "actually care", a pretty annoying issue is the FHAHQ issue. I guess a similar thing on answers.unity3d was "absolute beginner programming questions unrelated to Unity as such." Anyway, it might help with the thinking here.}

My personal takeaway from the whole affair?

Social solutions will not work.

Sad but true. If someone on the meta discussion realises "Hey, we mods must _ _ _ to solve the problem!"

The simple reality is: it Will Not Happen.

The ONLY solutions are technical solutions. i.e., all new questions are simply plain deleted after 2 hours unless 4 of 20 top-ranking mods certifies the question is original and worthy ..... or whatever.

Social solutions do Not Work. Proof, click to the Unity site.

{But see my caveat below. It is simply factually the case that SO, like say any Western Government, is now an I.S.M.O. ..... an Incredibly Slow Moving Organisation. It's inconceivable that anything Radical (say - "eliminate membership," "make all pages bright pink," or whatever) will be tried. You might as well suggest a Western Democracy would try fast, aggressive solutions. So, the issue is settled. Click to the unity site to see SO's future.}


And here's a contrary example, with an equally bad outcome!...

Consider Parse.com, which is becoming wildly important in many aspects of mobile computing. They have their own QA forum. Now, the owners TIGHTLY CONTROL the forum, so there is NO crap content.

Result ... nobody likes or uses the forum. :/

It's tough ...


And for a complete scientific analysis, with diagram...

Amazingly, this question actually totally explains the dynamic, which ruined the above two sites:

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/252077/294884

Regarding SO being ruined in the same way, you can simply place bets on when it happens. There is - absolutely - no cure.

(SO could aggressively try different strategies, to at least try to find a cure. Nobody knows what the cure is: you can trivially write down a list of aggressive ideas which could be aggressively actually tried. For example, it might be that you simply must vote on a post if you are even an unregistered visitor, it might be that "registration and membership" has to be completely eliminated form the SO concept, it might be that only the 3 highest ranking members on the whole site can vote on posts, it might be that ALL posts are automatically eliminated after 36 hours unless a high ranking member approves them, it might be that you simply can't have a ranking unless you use an RSS tool to constantly monitor posts, it might be that you must eliminate 10 weak posts a day to have a score over 5k -- etc etc -- it's easy to think of aggressive ideas. But - simple fact - SO is now an incredibly slow moving organisation; nothing like this is going to be tried. It's just that simple. [There would be a huge bizarre panic by owners and 'constituents' at any aggressive ideas, like eliminating posts, blocking users, adding an "advanced" section or whatever.] It's simply a fantasy to believe anything aggressive will be tried -- you might as well hope for a modern Western democracy to try radical aggressive ideas on problems. So it's not going to happen. You can count the days until SO meets the same fate as the above two examples.)

20
  • 3
    answers.unity looks a lot like a Stack Exchange instance, is it actually based off of the Stack Exchange platform, or is it only a cosmetic similarity? Also, would it really be so bad for Stack Overflow if so many people stopped asking questions on it? It's the good questions that matter, not the junk ones.
    – user456814
    Commented May 3, 2014 at 14:14
  • hey cup - I have no idea about those technical issues, how it is implemented. two years ago you could ask on there and get long informative answers immediately - but now everyone with a clue has deserted the site :O TBC on "unity" ... zillions of people are ASKING questions. But (a) they are incredibly low quality and (b) everyone with a clue has deserted the site. also (c) because of (b) nobody bothers asking good questions anymore. it's no longer an "expert" site. the last year or so I tried once or twice to ask an important question, and simply nobody notices it in the crapflood
    – Fattie
    Commented May 3, 2014 at 14:17
  • twitter.com/bartkevelham/status/396590659303649282 ;)
    – Bart
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 10:47
  • If I remember correctly @Cupcake, they were originally using the SE 1.0 engine, but at some point they switched to a clone.
    – Bart
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 10:49
  • 1
    Also Bart regarding Parse - there's literally a comment on there somewhere "this site is useless, I'd ask on SO, but it's becoming just as useless" - Heh (not funny I guess)
    – Fattie
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 10:49
  • I don't yet have as dark a view of SO given that there seems to be an actual concern (by community and mods) for quality, as expressed all over this question. That seems to be completely absent from the sites you've mentioned, or at least isn't as visible. But yeah, we need the community to step up and keep taking care.
    – Bart
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 10:53
  • 2
    Hi Bart - no, tragically, on the contrary. There was years of intense discussion and desperate debate on the Unity site, about how to "save" it. Eg You can see literally years of discussion on it here, answers.unity3d.com/questions/432710/… SO is now at precisely the place Unity was a couple yrs ago, with many vibrant Meta discussions about how to save it. Anyway - I leave it to you.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 11:02
  • 27
    someone has already said this but if the community wants a "not enough effort" close reason why doesn't SE implement it?
    – user2140173
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 16:05
  • 3
    HI meHow - the answer to your question is simple: SO has become a mature, slow-moving organisation. Just like a Western government. It's impossible to see them ever now "quickly changing" something to "have a go" and "see what happens" - it will never happen.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 16:15
  • @JoeBlow - SO is THE BEST PLACE TO GO FOR ANSWERS!!! It's magical!! The company I work for just started a company account for that reason. I know it's painful for some to deal with people who aren't as smart or as knowledgable as they are. But, while some do no research and just ask questions, some of us really do research our problem if we can. Sometimes, we just don't get it. Sometimes management is sitting on our shoulders for it NOW. I've been programming for over 20 years and I'm still a newbie. Continued....
    – Patricia
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 23:46
  • ... Continued from above - I've been tossed around from database development to embedded development to desktop development to client-server development to web development and now to mobile development. You'd think that with all of this experience I'd be really knowledgeable. The truth is it's not that easy to judge whether someone is asking a BAD question. Some people even go so far as to say there is no such thing as a BAD or DUMB question. I still think SO rocks!!!!
    – Patricia
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 23:51
  • @JoeBlow - Oh yeah!!! I almost forgot to say "YOU'RE AWESOME!!!"
    – Patricia
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 0:44
  • 2
    There is no such thing as a dumb question if you have an awesome avatar image!
    – Fattie
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 9:05
  • I like the idea to limit the top reputation you can get until you do often an action, I would add if you don't take care of the site back to 0 rep
    – llrs
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 9:32
  • 17
    Every single thing discussed here in this Question, it's Answers, and the many many Comments is old-hat. Every problem raised here has come up before in the mid-80s in relation to Usenet Newsgroups; any type of forum that gains a reputation as being useful is doomed to an eventual death-by-newbie. Unless all of the bad, duplicate, and do-my-work-for-me questions can be ruthlessly eliminated, there is no hope for any site, forum, or "bboard" — it will eventually die as the experts abandon it. AFU (alt.folklore.urban) was ruthless but was still overwhelmed by clueless newbies.
    – Stephen P
    Commented May 14, 2014 at 23:09
85

It isn't the quality of the questions that is dropping. That is just a symptom.

It is the quality of new visitors that is dropping.

A wise person once said on the Usenet:

"MSN users are going to make AOL users look like Kernel hackers!" - Wise Usenet User

Well, they finally found Stack Overflow!

I did some quick research on Closed questions. The numbers aren't pretty or promising, but they illustrate who these personalities are and a profile of what they are about.

3
  • 20
    Yeah, every third 15-year-old in the world pictures himself as an ace programmer, just days away from creating the next great viral app. But those a-holes at SO won't answer his questions (at least not rapidly enough), and he resents that SO is holding him back like that.
    – Hot Licks
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 0:44
  • 1
    "MSN users are going to make AOL users look like Kernel hackers!" ROFL... I find that about 1 out of 10 questions from 1 rep users actually suggest the user will at some point ask good questions or give good answers.
    – James King
    Commented May 26, 2014 at 19:37
  • hey illustrate who these personalities are and a profile of what they are about. maybe some of those mythical big data analytics gurus that stackexchange employees that I keep hearing about should use that data to do something about the situation?
    – user10677470
    Commented Jun 16, 2019 at 15:45
73

I'm an Android developer. There are certainly a lot of stupid Android questions on here. I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that the official Android Developers Google Group is moderated, and the moderators have been asleep at the keys for at least a year, meaning that no new members can post. Worse, their group description specifically recommends people come here to ask basic questions:

If you're just starting with Android application development and have a beginner-level question, consider asking it on Stack Overflow.

Yes, folks... companies as mighty as Google are actually crowdsourcing their tech support to Stack Overflow!

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  • 12
    developer.android.com has all that is basically needed to start programming for android, at least if you know programming before. That should be enough for starters. It is not the task of a company to run a teaching site for total newbies.
    – kap
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 8:22
  • 18
    Google can run their business however they like, but I would think they'd want to actively support developers on their own platform. And if it's not Google's task to run a teaching site for Android, it's definitely not Stack Overflow's. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 16:26
  • BTW, I agree completely with your comment on the original question about how SO is gamified. I wouldn't be able to use much functionality at all if it weren't for having written a number of quick, decent answers to some slightly silly questions just to get some reputation.
    – Raman Shah
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 22:13
  • 2
    @kap A company may not be obliged to run a teaching site for total newbies, but if they do, it's a very good thing for themselves, and shows a lot about their commitment to a platform. Microsoft runs the Microsoft Virtual Academy, which IMO qualifies as "a teaching site for total newbies". It drives more people to learn their platforms, so more people start using their technologies and they gain more presence in the industry. Commented May 7, 2014 at 15:02
  • 2
    Google should have said "If you're just starting with Android development and have a beginner-level question, SEARCH FOR IT before asking it."
    – AndrewS
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 16:05
  • 2
    StackOverflow has always done a better job than the Google Groups at managing noise and duplication. Google should be applauded for admitting that. No company I know is a Jack of all trades and a Master of all. Even Microsoft, for all the things they do better than Google, had atrocious search on its own technical documentation that couldn't match Google's search of the same. As to the business of running a "teaching site", Google made a $$$ deal with StackOverflow before it made them an official Android site, but I doubt the term "teaching site" was ever used. There was already an ok one. Commented May 8, 2014 at 1:59
  • @StephanBranczyk, BTW, I think that's simply the reason, no mysteries here: vastly improved Google visibility, that can explain it alone. The dynamics at which SO has started to dominate every Google search result list is very noticable, and likely correlates with that also noticable lack of similarly increasing resources to keep SO tidy. (I mean, simply: just too many people hase been coming and asking. Including myself, for example.)
    – Sz.
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 13:34
  • The forum changed their moderating strategy, it didn't take a year to be overwhelmed with spam
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 25, 2016 at 21:22
59

Too Localized

Really miss this one. But perhaps it was "too mean", and it applied to "too many bad questions".

Afterall, the mentality suddenly switched at that point from "close it and move on" to "answer it if you want, or move on" with the outlook that more answers leads to a better site.

Let's face it, the rigidity that left with Jeff Atwood needs to make a comeback. Some of the wording used which was considered too harsh is now clearly in need of helping us fight a wave of help vampires.

These users (the help vampires) expect that with a simple "how do I write facebook" question on Stack Overflow they will be able to create the next big thing. For many obvious reasons that does not work. However! As long as it meets certain minimums the question may be able to stand under current standards.

It is almost ironic that a majority of software needs are outsourced, and that many in-source experts end up solving outsourced problems on Stack Overflow.

In my opinion the closure tool is ineffective! Shocking, right? Who knew.. apparently nearly a quarter of a million users it turns out (hundreds of thousands of close votes in the review queue times a minimal 2 - probably higher).

Bring back the vague closure reasons, and close all the things. Increase vote to close weights. Impose limits on question asking for new users. Raise the gates! Board the windows! This is a call to action.

6
  • 4
    I'm glad you wrote this. On several occasions I have seen where someone with 'goal eyes' was in way over their head. They get an idea and slug EVERY few lines of code out in questions. Sequentially. I don't know if these apps finally reach the commercial stage or not, but if they do I suspect they are WORRYINGLY unstable. A localized problem solved in Stack Overflow is fine, but we're talking whole apps from womb to tomb here.
    – Gayot Fow
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 15:15
  • 19
    +1 for the "in-source experts and up solving outsourced problems". I've always found that irony very sad. You can set your watch by SO when a certain time zone hits 8am, and when you comment "We don't do your homework for you" the reply is that ... it isn't homework. Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 19:14
  • 7
    "It is almost ironic that a majority of software needs are outsourced, and that many in-source experts end up solving outsourced problems on Stack Overflow." - bravo
    – RubberDuck
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 20:50
  • Indeed, however the irony can turn to anger if you've ever had your role "outsourced". I have wondered why I bother to help users from that certain time zone when all they are doing is taking jobs away from my fellow countrymen. I'm an idiot, I think.
    – Droppy
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 7:43
  • 6
    @GarryVass I've also seen far too many questions where the asker starts off with 'Continuing on from my previous questions on this piece of code...' Commented May 2, 2014 at 9:17
  • 5
    @sevenseacat, I think I could reverse engineer the full functional spec from this sequence of questions: stackoverflow.com/users/3479588/… :)
    – Gayot Fow
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 12:26
42

Just be more selective in the questions that you answer.

Ask yourself these questions prior to answering

  • Has this question been asked and answered before?

  • Does the questioner show that they have NOT tried to resolve this issue by themselves already? By searching SO and google , and even bing to find the answer?

  • The question is very poorly written, and doesn't include enough relevant information, or includes too much useless information.

  • Is the question very narrowly focused, and the answer wouldn't be helpful to anyone else that views the question/answer in the future?

If you answer any of those questions with a yes, don't answer it. And even vote to close the question and/or downvote if necessary.


If the question is good, but you feel the questioner won't understand the answer you give, doesn't mean you shouldn't answer the question. Since there will likely be many more people who view the question for years to come, and they will very much appreciate your answer, even if it goes beyond the questioner's abilities.

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  • 39
    Cool. I've been applying this strategy for a few months now. That lead to my voting to close a lot of questions and answering a lot less. And you know what? This trend is increasing. I now pass 90% of my time on SO closing questions, and they keep coming. It wasn't always like this (and I'm not that old on the site anyway). Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 13:13
  • 28
    I've been more selective. It's called not visiting SO. That's why your solution here is a total non-solution.
    – djechlin
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 14:56
  • 2
    @FrédéricHamidi: Of course they do keep coming. SO is/was exponentially attracting more people that are new to the site and don't know what they do
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:13
  • 3
    This is happening to me too.. my activity was mostly answering questions up until a few months back and I gained a lot of rep really quickly.. now I'm close-voting >90% of the time because the quality of questions is just terrible. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 3:49
  • 2
    That's what I've been doing for years, which is why my rep is low, I am usualy extremely picky. And people hold that low rep against me, "you have lower rep therefore you're no good" kind of attitude is common on this site (and other sites having rep systems).
    – jwenting
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 6:53
  • This answer is an insight for personal sanity. It has little to do with the OP. Suppose we want BOTH personal sanity and a well-functioning SO?
    – Smandoli
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 14:13
  • If everyone would do this always then maybe it would work. But then you got those other meta discussions like "Why is SO so hard on new users". And for me, I try to do this, but it's hard. Sometimes is just easier to answer a question than to look for a duplicate. And in fact, I think over 99% () of the questions are asked and answered before on 'the internet' and at least 90% () on SO itself. I think those numbers are just too big to turn the tide by downvoting all of them. ((*) Both are guestimates)
    – GolezTrol
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 12:23
  • @jwenting Where are you encountering that attitude exactly, can you clarify or elaborate? If that attitude really exists then that sucks, but I find it hard to imagine that anyone would seriously hold low reputation against someone.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 3:05
  • @Pekka웃 just read the questions on this very theme and you'll see that many blame it on low rep users. I've had people send me snide IMs claiming my answers or comments have no value because my rep is lower than theirs too.
    – jwenting
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 6:21
  • @jwenting nobody here blames it on low rep users per se - there is just the fact that low quality questions also usually tend to be low rep users... if you look around on Meta, you will find every suggestion to somehow discriminate against low rep users countered by someone stating that low reputation isn't automatically an indicator of lack of technical expertise, for exactly the reason you state. To assume otherwise would be silly. Re IMs, that sounds really unusual. I'd be super interested in seiing an example.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 14:56
  • I don't want to have to be selective, I don't want to have to trudge through this quagmire, I want to be presented with only questions that are worth my time... and yes, it's a dream. Commented May 7, 2014 at 15:48
41

A necessary intro to my answer: (derived from here)

Basically there are 5 camps of users on Stack Overflow:

  1. The "caretakers" who want to keep the site clean and with good content.
  2. The "help vampires" who flood the site with bad/duplicate questions who only want their question answered and care nothing for the site.
  3. The "victims" who'd answer just about anything. Whether or not this is done for reputation is not particularly relevant to my answer, and yes, I realize people who answer just to help and people who do so just because they want as much reputation as possible are probably significantly different, but the effect on the site of both are similar.
  4. The ones who no longer care.
  5. The "good ones" who actually ask good questions.

In short, #2 and #3 are controlling the content and we need to rethink Stack Overflow's (Stack Exchange's) design if we want to stop them.

Let's assume we're in:

  • Camp #1 or
  • Camp #4, presumably previously in #1, but will happily move back into #1 or
  • Camp #3, after having given up on #1 realizing you'll never change it, but will happily go back or
  • Somewhere in between.
  • And maybe with a hint of #5.

By the above assumption, we don't want #2 and #3 here. But the problem is - #2 and #3 sustain each other. There's already enough of #3 on the site (with hopelessly too much rep, whom we can't exactly just ban for this) and too few #1, with a constant flow of #2 (banning them eventually is good, but that doesn't stop the questions they actually get to post, or the constant flow of new ones), such that we'll most likely never 'fix' the site.

This problem will just get worse with more #3 and #2, worse #3's, and #1 becoming #4 and both #1 and #4 leaving, or #1 becoming #3, and, with less and less left to moderate content, the site will start spiralling downwards a lot faster. Eventually #5 will leave too as they get bombarded with low quality answers or no expert left who's able to answer.

This is, IMO, a design problem. Allowing anyone to post a question to the general public and get an answer within minutes is a great idea in theory, but I think what's happening to Stack Overflow shows the problem with it.

A few specific suggestions from my side: (or "let's put all my radical ideas in one place")

We need to:

  • Put questions (and possibly answers) (at least those by low-reputation users, e.g. < 1k rep, or possibly even more) into a review queue before getting seen by the general public.

  • Err on the side of closing questions we don't think will be useful.

    With regard to not having appropriate close reasons, we should have a constant dialogue with regard to the close reasons and what should or shouldn't be added or removed, and Stack Exchange needs to err on the side of listening to the community on this one.

  • Punish (recently asked) closed questions.

    If reputation is a measure of how much the community trusts you, shouldn't we remove reputation from users who don't know what's appropriate? I personally don't trust someone with the site who doesn't follow the guidelines. Downvoting isn't sufficient here, as often users don't downvote decent, but wildly off topic, questions (unless we start downvoting these more).

  • Raise the standards of what's acceptable.

    For one thing, close and downvote "debug my code for me" and questions about an error without a complete, minimal example (even if the problem is in the shown code - broken window theory and all that, and it should be minimal - anyone posting their program without a sufficient attempt at removing code not applicable to question should have their question closed).

    Perhaps more arguable, questions showing no research effort need to be closed and/or heavily downvoted, even if they are otherwise useful - broken window theory and all that. I like the idea of keeping useful ones on the site and not allowing OP to see them, or at least making it more of a hassle for them, in some way or another, but my attempt at suggesting that was shot down fairly conclusively.

  • Detect and punish bad reviewing more and better.

    It's no use we make Stack Overflow more review-centric if we have a bunch of robo-reviewers just approving everything.

    On the flip side, we could (and maybe should) also reward good reviewing. Finding and/or checking duplicates properly is a lot of work, and not many people do currently. If we put new questions into a review queue, and get rid of robo-reviewers, we may need to reward reviewing to deal with the numbers.

  • Make registering take longer / more effort.

    Presumably the lazy people will be less inclined to create an account here if they have a few hoops to jump through before they can do so.

    We may even consider including a short what's-on-topic introduction, including having them review a few selected posts correctly to ensure they get it.

  • Focus more on closing duplicates and making canonical posts of which we can close things as duplicate of.

    Duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad, duplication is bad.

    It's bad, okay? Sorry, but I don't think anyone will ever convince me otherwise.

    Although having different explanations of the same thing isn't necessarily duplication (although these should be on a single page). Nor is different ways to find the same information (i.e. closed duplicate questions as signposts, although I think this deserves some reviewing).

    Having dozens, hundreds or even thousands or more posts running about asking minor variations of pretty much the same thing is bad.


Another post in vein, I assume...

18
  • 5
    You left out the camp of people who enjoy helping others and don't care too much about rep (or is that part of #5 for you?).
    – Tomalak
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 10:51
  • @Tomalak I consider that somewhere between #1 and #4. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 10:54
  • 2
    Hm, that does not help me much in positioning myself.
    – Tomalak
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 10:56
  • 14
    "Raise the standards of what's acceptable" - a thousand times this. Too many people interpreted "be nicer to noobs" as "a new user wrote something that's not blatantly offensive, thus he must be upvoted"; regardless of the actual quality of the post. But fear not, if all is lost for SO we can still start an area51 proposal for a NoSuckOverflow where RTFM is an actual close reason...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 11:20
  • 12
    I like the idea of rewarding people who find duplicates. With the proper incentive, that might be one direction where "rep whoring" might actually do something useful. It's a fine line though, and a hard-to-hit one. (I've seen it myself: Digging up the proper duplicate & proposing it costs time and earns no reward, even more so as several people have to agree on the vote, i.e. the question must have enough screen time for this to happen, and in the mean time somebody writes down the obvious answer, gets accepted and the line moves on.)
    – Tomalak
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 13:50
  • 2
    Considering those "with hopelessly too much rep", it implies that 'rep' is not a very useful metric for anyone. Is it known when that became true? Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 11:18
  • @user2338816 It's useful to some extent. I'm sure any 100k+ user has a massive amount of programming knowledge. Although one can also get a fair amount of reputation by mainly answering questions many would consider basic - I did for a time. Only the disillusioned would see it as synonymous to community trust - there are a few 100k+ users whom, based on what they answer, I wouldn't even want to trust with the privilege of voting. I haven't been here for too long, but I imagine it's always been this way. Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 17:43
  • You missed the "I want a quick answer to my homework". A lot of the newbie questions are so detailed in scope, that it looks like a copy/paste of a class assignment. At the same time the questions being asked shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the concepts
    – Noah
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 17:50
  • @Noah That sounds a lot like #2. Am I missing something? Commented May 2, 2014 at 18:07
  • @Dukeling very similar to #2 -- Might be a subclass of "help vampires", but the questions are rarely bad/duplicate. I just view them as lazy.
    – Noah
    Commented May 3, 2014 at 14:18
  • @Noah In my experience, lazy questions are often / mostly bad/duplicate. Perhaps we have different definitions of "bad". In the broader sense, I'd view that as any question that has justifiable reason to be downvoted and/or closed (which includes it not having any / much future value). Commented May 3, 2014 at 21:30
  • One issue around duplicate questions is when question "foo" is asked for a specific software version X. New question "bar" is asked, and seems similar to foo, but mentions version Y. Just pointing out the potential duplicate as a curator, especially if the reward mechanism gave rep for this, would not address the needs of the person asking the question. They need to know whether the previous answers are still true for version Y. Especially when the previous most-voted "correct" answer is "you can't do foo [with version X]". Looking at SE as a whole this issue may apply to place, time etc
    – AdamV
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 23:07
  • 1
    Good luck with punishment.. It just proves one more time, that points, reputation, karma etc is just a game. You can't ask 100 good question per week, but it's very easy to ask 1000 stupid/easy questions and as a result you will have low rep for people (who is not sitting here all the day) asking only good question, and higher rep for people with lower quality, because they just do more here (upvote, write useless answers for useless questions..).
    – Dainius
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 8:19
  • Regarding the "review queue", unfortunately we are already lacking reviewers so I am afraid we would be overwhelmed pretty quickly :x Commented May 7, 2014 at 16:00
  • @MatthieuM. The close vote queue is currently the only one that's swamped, but the bad questions would essentially go into the new queue instead of getting a close vote eventually, and low quality would similarly go there before getting a flag. Perhaps we'll need to implement this together with rewarding / punishing reviewing better, in which case the added numbers should be no problem. Or, with a much firmer grip on the quality control, people should quickly realize that Stack Overflow isn't an "anything goes" site any more and the new low quality quantity should decrease. Commented May 7, 2014 at 16:12
36

Today, I tried signing up as a new user, using a different e-mail address than I normally use, to see what comes up and try to look at it through the eyes of a real first-time user. How they find out about Stack Overflow, I don't know. Maybe they've already tried Googling for answers to other questions, and they notice that Stack Overflow questions come up a lot. Maybe they hear about it from friends. Maybe they are students and their professors are telling them that this is where they should go for help, instead of bugging the professors. (If that last is the case, it definitely seems like a problem, but how to squelch that is a subject for another discussion.)

So they decide they want to ask a question, and they sign up. The first page they see is the "About - Stack Overflow" page. Here's what they see:

Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers. It's built and run by you as part of the Stack Exchange network of Q&A sites. With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming.

This site is all about getting answers. It's not a discussion forum. There's no chit-chat.

Just questions... and answers.

Great! They've got a question, and they'd like an answer. So this seems like the right place.

Not all questions work well in our format. Avoid questions that are primarily opinion-based, or that are likely to generate discussion rather than answers.

Still OK. They can't get their code to work. They need a fix, not an opinion.

Don't ask about...

Questions you haven't tried to find an answer for (show your work!) Product or service recommendations or comparisons Requests for lists of things, polls, opinions, discussions, etc. Anything not directly related to writing computer programs

The first item here really ought to dissuade those who just want to copy-and-paste their homework assignments into the question box. Other than that, though, askers who would ask questions that a lot of us consider "low-quality" haven't seen any reason to be dissuaded.

So then there's the second page.

We'd love to help you, but the reality is that not every question gets answered. To improve your chances, here are some tips:

This sends the message that these aren't "rules" or even "guidelines", but rather "tips on improving one's chances". And the information they really need to know isn't on this page; they have to follow a link that says "Our community is defined by a specific set of topics in the help center". Sounds a bit like legalese; and on a page that is claiming just to give you "tips" to "improve your chances" of getting a question answered, I can understand why someone might not see the need to follow this link and read it carefully.

If there really is a problem with question quality, then I think the site needs to make it clear, up front, what kinds of questions are acceptable. The "About" page needs to be less inviting, and clearer about what SO's mission is and what kinds of questions it's for and isn't for. The rules for what are considered "good" questions should be presented as such, even if they're not absolute hard-and-fast rules, but they should not be presented as mere "tips to improve your chances". Things like "Questions asking us to recommend or find a tool, library or favorite off-site resource are off-topic" should be presented here, and should be one of the things users need to read first, rather than be on a separate page that they get to via a link that the site doesn't make it clear they need to follow. If questions must be relevant to other people besides the poster, that needs to be clear up front. And if questions from people who are new to programming and who don't fundamentally understand it yet aren't welcome here, that should be made clear up front, too (politely). There should be something in bold letters that says that pasting in your homework assignment without showing any effort of your own is unacceptable.

Starting off with a long-ish list of rules may seem less friendly, but to my mind it's far superior to let people know right away what the purpose of the site is and what's expected of them, than to make it look like their participation is welcome and then slap them. The latter is what makes SO look negative, or, to quote someone from a different forum, "intimidating and arrogant". I do think that if we start by making the rules clear, then we should try to downvote or close only questions that clearly break the rules, and give leeway in less-clear cases (and keep in mind that when we expect them to do some research before asking, others may not have as good an idea as we do how to go about that).

2
  • 10
    +1 It is a great idea to "impersonate" a new SO user like you did! However, you imporsonated one that is interested in what SO has to say before you ask your question. This is a biased assumption. A user that has a goal in mind can ignore a whole lot of text that they did not ask for (think the many "are you sure" dialogs that are simply clicked away before the user read the prompt properly). These intermediate steps get into their flow. They have a question in mind and want to write it down as quickly as possible. Most of them won't read more than the first few sentences of the "About".
    – chiccodoro
    Commented Aug 5, 2014 at 10:43
  • 1
    +1 for pointing out that we need to have clear, to the point and objective rules. Look at Reddit for example. Every sane subreddit has the rules written on the right side, so visitors immediately know what is accepted, what is not.
    – Calmarius
    Commented Jan 12, 2016 at 16:01
34

A lot of the reasons (that no one seems to be talking about) is that a lot of the good questions have been asked already. Remember that the great question you asked/answered a while back. Well, now it'll never be asked again (if it is, it will be closed as duplicate).

Have you ever had a good question, then googled it and seen that it was answered a few years back. This is fine, and this is what Stack Overflow was meant to do. It's just now a lot of it has been done.

Also note that on the newer Stack Exchange sites, there are great new questions (hot network questions always has something that interests me). That's because they are new, so new questions have not been asked already.

To show this, I looked at your top questions, and they are from 2008 - 2010. I find it unlikely that you have gotten worse at asking questions, so I can only assume that the good questions you've had have been asked by you in the past or other people in the past.

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  • 11
    A) There will always be new frameworks, languages, techniques, applications to ask questions about. It's impossible to have all thinkable questions handled. B) You'll see an enormous skew towards answers in my account. I'm asking a question only if I'm really, really stuck with something, and that happens very rarely. For the smaller part because I have a bit of experience, for the larger part because I have the determination to find out myself. I'd rather read the RFC and the language spec than ask a question. I'd rather search and try for 5 days than ask a question.
    – Tomalak
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 10:35
  • 1
    @Tomalak A) true, i'm not saying that good questions will ever completely dry up, just that in general there are now fewer good questions than bad questions. B) how often do you find the answer (maybe on stackoverflow) and not need to ask a question, this agrees with my point.
    – puser
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 10:41
  • 4
    Quite often, actually. I agree that someone has to ask these questions (even simple ones, because "simple" is not correlated to "bad"). What I'm missing of late is the determination to self-improve. It seems to be epidemic in the industry, if you look at the top answer in this thread.
    – Tomalak
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 10:44
  • 2
    @Tomalak I'm sure that lack of self-improvement has always been the case, its just stackoverflow wasn't mainstream enough so only 'die hards' used the site. so now before there was die hards with good questions, now there are die hards without good questions (already been asked) and other people with worse questions. Though if those worse questions weren't asked, stackoverflow would be pretty inactive.
    – puser
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 10:48
  • 4
    I don't know why this answer was downvoted or why this answer wasn't given to the why-is-stack-overflow-so-negative-of-late thread. Of course there are new technologies but the bulk of low quality questions are about the existing technologies about which most things have been answered, so naturally there are fewer good quality questions on those subjects. Yes there are SO mechanics that need refining, but the overall reason for both these threads is simply that the good users cannot ask many more good quality questions leaving lower experience users to dominate with asking poorer questions.
    – guymid
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 7:11
  • 1
    As another user with rep in the low hundreds, this represents my perspective as well.
    – Noumenon
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 14:51
  • This is exactly the same effect you see in Wikipedia in terms of new good articles over time. Yes there are new technologies, but that won't be as many questions as there were when stackoverflow began. You would see number of good questions per week decrease over time as an inverse logarithmic curve.
    – AaronLS
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 0:51
  • As I replied to another answered here, technology is changing, answers become out-of-date. Yes, it was easier to gain reputation back then, because nothing was basically asked, but it does not mean it's impossible to gain reputation now. If only we can deal with those "bad" questions. Commented May 1, 2014 at 1:05
  • 5
    I think people are missing puser's point: within a given language or framework, questions will inevitably start as broadly good, then gradually the "easy" questions will stop as they get answered, leaving only the esoteric and the poor-quality. Yes, a new language or framework will start the process over again.
    – egrunin
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 22:03
29

I'm sure it's been thought of before, but what about a short period of time (say 15 minutes) where any question asked by a new or low-rep user goes into "limbo" where people with more experience than the asker can flag it as a duplicate (if needs be), block it from being posted (until the asker clarifies it, or another user edits it to be clearer) and so on. This removes the instant satisfaction of getting an answer for your problem without first checking to see if it's been solved and/or taking the time to write a clear question.

The question might be available to answers in that time, but if a user-who-should-know-better (i.e. with high rep) chooses to answer it without checking for problems (dupes especially), then they would gain no reputation for their answer.

5
  • 1
    The limbo idea is interesting. How to automate no rep for answers "without checking for problems" seems tricky.
    – AShelly
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 12:42
  • @AShelly Well I figure that the problems would become apparent later when the question was flagged for being a duplicate, or for low quality and so on. It wouldn't be automatic, but would happen when users declared the question to be duplicate/badly-crafted.
    – nevan king
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 14:12
  • 4
    Or taking the limbo idea a step further. Simply start all questions as closed and don't open them for answering until enough people vote to agree that it is a good question. Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 15:23
  • 5
    @MartinSmith unfortunately, while that would indeed be effective at deterring bad questions in popular tags, it would also catch perfectly good questions about niche technologies in the crossfire. I prefer nevan's approach.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 21:36
  • I like the limbo idea. At first it sounds like a lot of work for the reviewers (the queues are unmanageably long already) - but it might just as well reduce the number of review tasks. Take a bad quality question by a new user. It can possibly get into 3 queues "First Posts", "Close Votes" and "Low Quality Posts". But in the meanwhile, other users will edit it in an effort to improve, generating "Suggested Edits" review tasks for a question that might be closed or deleted soon. Also, they attract bad answers which go into the queues as well. Putting the Q in the "limbo" would prevent that.
    – chiccodoro
    Commented Aug 5, 2014 at 10:58
29

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I want to remind everybody that SO quite recently decided to abandon "Not enough effort shown" reason for closing questions. We had quite an active discussion about it.

As it stands now people can ask questions without doing any research first. Nothing stops them and community does not want to shut down such questions. I would venture a guess (without any statistics to support it) that the problem is not that more low quality questions are posted than before, but that they have much longer life span.

Downvoting post from users without any earned reputation serves just for letting frustration out, nothing else. Pure homework dumps are protected by the rules and, therefore, have a chance to attract someones attention and become quite legitimate.

There is an argument that sometimes bad question get good answers and that's what SO is all about: to be the repository of good peer-reviewed answers. Future knowledge seekers will find these bits of useful information and would't care what actually prompted them.

Be as it may, bad questions still lower the plank and bring whatever standards we have down.

7
  • 2
    @PM - "Downvoting post from users without any earned reputation serves just for letting frustration out, nothing else" - this isn't true. The automatic post-ban kicks in if no-rep/low-rep users get their questions downvoted. Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 23:19
  • @BrianRoach - Interesting. Didn't know that. Where can I learn the details from?
    – PM 77-1
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 1:00
  • 1
    I don't remember using google search and finding a bad question with a good answer to be a solution to my problem. In other words, such Q/As are rarely a valuable resource. Commented May 1, 2014 at 1:03
  • @PM77-1 This was the original from Jeff meta.stackexchange.com/questions/56817/… and there's one from a current dev talking about improving it: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/252534/302916 Commented May 1, 2014 at 1:58
  • @BrianRoach - Interesting indeed. Thank you.
    – PM 77-1
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 2:04
  • @PM77-1, as a side-note, the generation that's taking up development now likely has no clue what a 'broken record' sounds like. When was the last time anybody heard a broken record? So your metaphor, however apt, may be wasted.
    – Gayot Fow
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 10:18
  • @GarryVass - So I dated myself, didn't I? It seems to me that "broken record" expression is used even by those who saw turntables exclusively in DJ booths.
    – PM 77-1
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 16:28
25

As someone who pretty much only gives answers (and comments), the only point where I'm not happy about closing a question (and thus "killing" the answers) is when it's a duplicate. The "original" might already have hundreds of points to itself, and it gets hard for even a very well written answer to beat that. Which is a shame, because quite often, those well-voted answers can be rather short and with very little explanation - answering the question (great) but not really moving the asker forward in understanding.

A clear example of a bad question is when there's 10 answers, three sentences each, in five minutes since the question has been posted.

The repwhoring is the worst when you're really only starting out. The reputation system is great in allowing relatively well working community moderation, but when you're joining the site, no matter your experience in the field, you have to prove yourself first. Which means you'll be answering any question that comes up and you can answer. You don't get any reputation for a successful close vote - and yet, it takes 3000 reputation to even do that.

Now that I've got the needed reputation to influence the site more, I'm mostly answering questions that aren't answered fast enough, or that have bad answers. It's much more satisfying (even though it yields less reputation) to answer a good, tough question. Downvoting, vote-closing, flagging - it only really gets possible once you cross a certain rep threshold, and it brings little "rewards" - and yet, answering the question in three sentences and getting even a single upvote means at least some reputation.

I like the suggestion that questions that were closed within 24 hours of asking should mean removing all the rep people gained from answering the question (and of course, reimbursing the associated downvote costs).

It might also help to give points to helpful flags, close votes etc. Or maybe even just showing the amount of helpful flags the given user has in his "signature" - that way, you could easily see that someone who gave hundreds of helpful flags is endorsing a question, perhaps leading to more consideration and recognition?

The fact that people with less and less skill will be joining the field is rather obvious. And in a way, it's a good thing - if frees the hands of the more advanced programmers to do more important things (including making more and more tools for the less advanced programmers, to improve the overall productivity of everyone). Fighting this is like fighting the industrial revolution. It really isn't any different from being a carpenter and being outraged about "those new table-making machines" that "steal your job".

That said, Stack Overflow shouldn't be the go-to site for the simple stupid questions about basics, not really solving any interesting problem. Perhaps it's the time to create yet another site, specifically for people who want to help others grow, not just help them with one specific problem they have? As is easily seen by the amount of answers to "bad" questions, there's plenty of those answerers on this site already. Let's give them a new playground - I'd join that too. Answering interesting, complicated problems on Stack Overflow, and helping beginners grow on Stack Playground. And in the end, perhaps that'd end up shaping more good questions for SO in the future. Instead of closing the bad questions outright, you'd move them to the new site, where they'd be dealt with accordingly, transferred with their answers and points - in the end, you'd see how much rep SO users got on good SO questions, rather than how fast they are at answering a question that just appeared. The reputation system there would probably have to work a bit differently, but that's for another discussion :)

22

There are multiple reasons to this. I'd say that some questions would always be of low (poor) quality. It depends on the users what they do (or attempt to do) in order to improve the quality. However, neither of the following helps:

  • Jumping to answer questions that have been answered scores of times.
  • Refusing to VTC obvious duplicates (regardless of the quality of the question). Often you'd find several users answering a FAQ who have the privilege to VTC.
  • Defending a poorly written, vague, and incomprehensible question. Choosing to answer by saying: it seems that you want such and such so ... Unfortunately, even extremely high rep users tend to do that.

It boils down to internet dollars. We are responsible for the deteriorating quality and only we can help improve it.

The fate of an answer that proposed no rep for answering duplicates does demonstrate what people want.


Users would shout that a certain question isn't a duplicate. Subsequently, they would post an answer based on one of those in the referenced duplicate.

Another faq that has been answered scores of times would take a couple of hours to be closed as duplicate.

A question that has been asked several times would have one single vote to close after 1K views in a day despite the comments referring to at least 3 questions that answer the same thing.

And these are not isolated examples. These are the norm.

That itself speaks volumes about the quality of the site.

15
  • Are you suggesting getting rid of reputation whatsoever? Because I've been considering that lately. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:02
  • 30
    @FrédéricHamidi I personally think no rep should be awarded to closed questions. By all means, leave them there ... just roll back any reputation. 5 people with significant reputation decided the question had no value and closed it. Take away the reward for bad behavior and see what happens. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:04
  • @Brian, that solution is indeed tempting. I don't think it has a lot a traction in the community right now though, considering other posts. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:05
  • 3
    Of course not, the bulk of the "community" appears to be more interested in imaginary internet points than the site's quality ... hence the problem :-D Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:07
  • 6
    @FrédéricHamidi There is absolutely no will to close questions as duplicate. Refer to this, for instance. It has my lone vote to close as duplicate despite citing 3 different questions that answer the same thing! Rep-whores bring the quality of the site down.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:39
  • @devnull, +16? Holy <expletive>. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:41
  • 4
    @FrédéricHamidi Yes, rep whores would not let you close a question. There are times when SO tends to suck for this reason.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 15:53
  • @BrianRoach I'm sure you might have seen this. One of the answers that proposed no rep for answering duplicates is the lowest score answer!
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 16:05
  • 5
    If the repwhores decide to vote to reopen just to save their points, we could find ourselves vastly outnumbered in endless close/reopen battles. Given that, perhaps Tim's approach may make the most sense: cut them off at a level where rep doesn't play a role. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 16:06
  • 1
    "Choosing to answer by saying: it seems that you want such and such so ... Unfortunately, even extremely high rep users tend to do that." - Guilty as charged, though I really try to avoid that (also in self-defense, as these kinds of questions often very quickly devolve into an interactive debugging session that takes hours to complete). Deliberately not taking the bait can be hard, occasionally.
    – Tomalak
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 16:17
  • 1
    @FrédéricHamidi Another recent question which was amusingly not noticed by anyone to be an obvious duplicate! And this would be +63 Holy ________.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 16:33
  • Wow. This one already has a reopen vote after finally being closed. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:28
  • @juanchopanza As they say, the same question often needs a fresh perspective. Given that this has been answered several times, the urgency for a fresh perspective is even higher.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:31
  • Answer to duplicate question had upvotes......
    – RubberDuck
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 20:42
  • +1 closed questions give no rep for answers. I would still answer some downvoted questions unless a specific duplicate had already been identified. It may take less of my time to answer than to find a duplicate. I may see a question that is vague to anyone outside the relevant domain but clear to me what is being asked or needed, so I answer it. I used to be a moderator on a site that has subsequently sunk for poor questions (or rather lack of good questions, and to some extent SO and cousins may be to blame for an exodus) and later, overwhelming spam, so I empathise with the problem here.
    – AdamV
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 22:58
21

I wonder if it isn't just a case of "preservation bias"?

As Stack Overflow (and the web at large) has amassed answers to literally millions of recurrent questions, people who are smart enough to do a Google search have been able to tap into this resource to get their problems solved without asking anyone's help. I for one have been a Stack Overflow member for three and a half years, but only ever posted four questions – at all of the other numerous times I came to it for help, someone else had already asked about my problem, and a third one had provided a solution.

In fact I'd reckon that today any reasonably smart person with an "average" problem can search and find answers by themselves. Therefore there's a world of questions that get answered without ever being registered (e.g. by being posted to Stack Overflow or other site).

With the middle ground all but covered, questions will virtually always come up from the extremes:

  1. Very difficult and/or novel questions from very smart people, who did look for references, but couldn't find any;
  2. Trivial problems from very stupid people, who couldn't bother to (or didn't realize they could) look it up by themselves.

The state of mankind being what it is, it's not hard to figure that type 2 questions will come up much more often than type 1.

1
  • 1
    Sounds a bit like a tombstone inscription, but I definitely go with the reasoning.
    – Tomalak
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 9:52
20

As I started to participate in SO, I was astonished and delighted that some problems which was keeping me away from bed for a half of the night were being solved even in a matter of seconds by more experienced programmers. That's really, really great. But on the other hand, when eventually I decided to try to help somebody else, the same thing that I had perceived as something great, suddenly turned pretty ugly for me.

Here I was, a new user which wasn't even allowed to comment someone's question or answer, trying to return the favour, help somebody else and gain some rep too. Because English isn't my native language, it usually takes me a bit longer to write down what I mean than it takes the other users. I had multiple situations, when after a minute I was already late and there was even more than 5 answers pretty same as mine. The funny thing is that, that these simple questions were often answered by users with reputation of 10k-100k+.

Now, somewhere above there has been used a term "rep-whore" addressing people who are answering low quality questions. The way I see it, sometimes it's the only questions left for new users to answer.

The other thing is that, it's a little bit frustrating when you see questions asked few years ago like "how does sth work" with several hundred thousands views and hundreds of upvotes just because it's a common issue and someone simply got lucky to be the first person to ask. No wonder people make a lot of duplicates on purpose and ask questions without trying anything on their own

17

hmm, bring back the homework tag, then automatically close and delete anything tagged as such 5 minutes after it's been posted. By that time the person asking the question will have gone away, planning to come back a few days later to harvest the solutions to his assignment only to find that there's no trace of his question.
He'll likely not even wonder what happened, just assume he forgot to post here in the first place.

5
  • 7
    +1. Add a close reason called "Homework", I'm sure we can come up with pretty wording for it, but in short, it's lack of effort + useless in long term (used to be "too localized"). Commented May 1, 2014 at 1:15
  • 2
    @Neolisk "easily answered by using documentation available to you" (aka your coursenotes and instruction books). "destructive to the community" (giving kids homework solutions is bad for the profession in that it causes a mass influx of unqualified workers). I'm sure there's others.
    – jwenting
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 6:21
  • None of this will happen. SO is now an incredibly slow moving organisation. It's completely pointless talking about radical, "let's try it!" solutions. It simply won't happen. You might as well discuss time travel or aliens.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 10:44
  • @JoeBlow I'm not saying it will happen (or at least happen soon), but that it's something that would help solve the problem. If nothing is done, things will only get worse. Even if it takes months of debate, if it helps solve the problem it's worth taking into consideration.
    – jwenting
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 6:23
  • as far as my memory goes, there was such a thing in earlier days. Though I do not know why it has gone, I can make up a reason myself: First, you never really know whether it is homework or not, it is just a suspicion. It is unfair to treat a question like you describe solely based on the perception of somebody else. Second, the fact that a question is related to homework should not disqualify it at all. The primary skill that any student must learn is to find ways to solve a problem. SO is obviously one. What really disqualifies a question is if its scope or quality don't fit.
    – chiccodoro
    Commented Aug 5, 2014 at 10:48
14

Over time, a drop in question quality is unavoidable for the simple reason that, at some point, all of the good questions will have been answered. For example, the C tag currently has 139,000 questions. So how many good questions are there about a language that has about 30 keywords and maybe 150 standard library functions? Are there really 500 good questions per library function and 2000 good questions per keyword? I don't think so.

I think that inevitably, SO will be the victim of its own success, as all the good questions are answered. Future newbies that are smart and motivated will find the answers that they need with simple searches, and won't have any reason to post questions. So that leaves you with...

13

In my opinion, users of Stack Overflow are more willing to provide small feedback to gain extra reputation points rather than send the user to read a manual.

It is no longer a place for developers who have problems but for beginners that learn how to code.

Once I had this discussion about RTFM on Stack Overflow. The conclusion was, why do I have to read a manual when I can go to Stack Overflow and write a simple question to gain an answer. Not even bothering to google it.

The cause of that is that Stack Overflow has became more popular for common questions.

A solution would be creating another Stack Exchange site where simple/trivial or well-documented questions could be moved.

The simplest solution is the easiest. We can downvote the answers and close the question. This could give a clear signal to the community what is valid for Stack Overflow.

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    It's sad but it's really true - "It is no longer a place for developers who have problems".
    – Dainius
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 8:23
  • 1
    We aren't yet to the point where good questions get crowded out - the basic questions get answered, and so do the hard ones. Who knows how long that will last, though...
    – Brilliand
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 23:28
11

I know this is not what Meta wants to hear, so consider it a thought experiment.

You guys know the saying about one definition of insanity being trying the same thing over and over, and expecting different results?

SO has spent the last 4+ years trying to eliminate all the bad questions, trying to discourage people from posting low-quality questions, trying to weed out "bad contributors", trying to discourage people from asking questions, basically.

Apparently it hasn't worked. If anything, the typical question quality is worse than ever.

What if the problem isn't that people are getting dumber or more helpless or more inclined to ask bad questions?

What if SO has just become hostile to people asking questions?

That would certainly discourage all the developers who actually make an effort, who don't want to be treated as idiots. Those people, the one who write interesting, high-quality questions, would just get their answers elsewhere, or do the research to find the answer themselves without posting the question.

Meanwhile, the ones who don't give a damn, who put absolutely no effort into anything, who just want answers served on a silver platter? They aren't discouraged by being treated like idiots, by being told that their questions are wrong, that that they should have followed this 8-step programme before asking their question. So they keep asking questions.

What if, in this endless chase to scare away "stupid people asking stupid questions", you have inadvertently created a hostile atmosphere which discourages those who actually had something to contribute from contributing? While, of course, those who have nothing to contribute don't give a shit that they're unwanted. They're used to that.

You've got Meta questions asking why high-rep users are answering fewer questions, you've got Meta questions discussing the plummeting quality of answers.

And these days, Google supplies an endless list of posts by disenfranchised users who have given up on the site.

Maybe, just maybe, the answer to all this is not "keep pushing to make SO even more hostile to contributors". Maybe we can't ever really get rid of all the bad questions, but we could at least stop scaring away the good ones?

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    Eh, most of the "stack overflow sux0rs" posts have been around for years. They're not anything new. "They aren't discouraged by being treated like idiots..." is certainly an incisive point, however. Do you have any specific recommendations for moving forward?
    – jscs
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 0:47
  • 4
    If only this post contained an actionable suggestion. I agree with you in principle, especially the culture of aggressively closing questions for soft reasons seems to have given birth to a class of Wikipedia style exclusionist mods who enjoy having the power to be more right than others. That's unfortunate, even if a well-written newbie question will not get any flak from them (to the contrary, people will be very positive), apparently it helps fostering fear among new users.
    – Tomalak
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 3:38
  • 8
    While I don't disagree with the basic premise - SO has become too zealous and bureaucratic - most of the posts in that Google result are super lame. Have you checked them out and looked at what they argue, what kinds of questions they saw closed and what happened?
    – Pekka
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 3:46
11

The problem I see

I see very few new users whose first post is a question show any effort. They, as Tim states are here for financial security and social class (even though, in my personal opinion, they in no way deserve it). We should step back and compare this to a scaled-up version of Area 51 criteria. Clearly, the target of new sites coming out of Area 51 (and a target I feel should apply to Stack Overflow) is:

  • A decent flow of questions per day. We're above and beyond this in most tags, and this is one thing I believe we can afford to sacrifice.
  • Percentage questions answered: 76% as per Stack Exchange explore sites page. This is not acceptable for a beta or a thriving site. Lowering the number of crap questions (or temporarily making deletion more readily available for fairly experienced users, on questions) should help drive this up, as well as my proposed solution below.
  • Avid users: We have plenty, but we should strive to see more new ones that are truly dedicated (that is, perform cleanup regularly, not just rep whores). This can clearly be addressed by encouraging cleanup and allowing avid, dedicated users to stand out more by decreasing the amount of noise.
  • Answers/question: 1.74776889452. Decent, but could use work. I suspect many questions are crap that gets a rapidfire answer.
  • Visits/day: Not considered here, but it's fairly sufficient

My proposed solution

I'm proposing this as my personal take on how to solve the problem. It obviously will be a tradeoff, and may sound radical to some.

I propose to place a moratorium on the posting of questions by new users. At first, only 5 reputation need to be gained (from editing posts well or giving an answer and receiving an upvote) it would be sufficient to post. This is on the basis that the site does not have an oracle built into the codebase that can provide answers for free. Experienced users have questions as well, and good answers from new users can help lighten the situation.

While there may be some users that have a genuinely good question that would appear to be shut out, they should be capable of answering an existing question or editing posts, if they really would be expected to put in the effort to ask a question, monitor comments, and act upon answers by accepting or commenting.

Due to the issue of robo-reviewers, it could be beneficial to check new users' suggested edits more thoroughly as the current edit queue is not overloaded, while the closevote one is, which this idea is designed to address.

Users that work by editing well or answering questions decently are not likely to be the kind of hit-and-run people that dump a question and abandon it. Granted, their posts may be maginally above crap, but they still come out marginally beneficial in the end.

And what about rep-whores?

I've considered myself at one point a slight rep-whore. From what I've seen, for me, I've answered FAQs due to the awful signal-to-noise (S/N) ratio making it difficult to find a good question to answer in a given tag, let alone a popular one where the S/N ratio is even more immense since new users posting crap will just dump a tag with the name of a language. Therefore, addressing this problem of posting crap and the awful ratio of good posts to crap posts can help address this.

Please comment with criticism or feedback. Thanks!

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    requiring rep to gain from edits / answers will most likely flood the site with lame attempts to "break through" to Ask Question page by posting senseless stuff or suggesting senseless edits. Even if 99,99% (heck even if 100%) will eventually fail, this will make a tough load to handle. I can imagine thousands monkeys blindly and rapidly copying text from "known good" answers into whatever question comes them to mind. Wanna review stuff like that?
    – gnat
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 11:06
  • 1
    @gnat This is true. But playing devil's advocate: Forcing them to look for answers so they can answer questions in order to gain rep might go a long way towards getting users learning how to search first before asking.
    – MadConan
    Commented Jun 16, 2015 at 17:14
  • 1
    given that this would come at price of others having to discover and cleanup plagiarism, I would say that sounds too much pain for too little gain
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 16, 2015 at 17:21
10

I'm currently reading the Android and Java forums, but I'm amazed at the number of questions I see along the lines of - 'my application crashed with a null pointer exception'. Usually there's some code, a stack trace that clearly identifies the line on which the NPE occurred, yet the posted code has no line numbers! So you're reduced to making a guess at the possible causes of the NPE.

But let's face it, these types of problems aren't hard to diagnose. I suspect that people asking these questions have little idea of how to debug their code, set breakpoints, run the app in debug mode. Life must be very difficult for them without being able to do this.

So the questions are usually straightfoward to answer, but the OP will have learned nothing, and would be far better off learning how to do basic debugging.

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  • 1
    As an Android developer on StackOverflow, my wish would be that every time such a question got asked, its author's account got flagged by the system, and each flag would result in an additional 30 minutes delay before anything posted by him would get posted publicly. To clear such a flag, the system would then require the poster to watch a tutorial on how to use logcat, post a logcat with his original question on StackOverflow, and possibly diagnose his own problem by reading logcat himself. Commented May 8, 2014 at 22:40
10

YES, TOTALLY !

I have the increasing feeling that Stack Overflow becomes uninteresting.

LOL "Mechanical Turk" ;) - But it's very pointy. I think Stack Overflow now suffers from its own good reputation. People have got the impression that Stack Overflow is a strong community where "every question is answered". Therefore, it attracts now a lot of people who have no idea and just "ask", while in fact they hope that someone will do their work.

There is now really a lack of really good questions - I mean questions where you have the feeling that the one asking has good fundamentals, and he has an idea of what he is doing. Answering to such questions is a kind of dialogue and exchange, where both parties gain.

Instead, there is now a flood of really poor questions - and it seems to be of two categories:

  • students who simply post their homework; who have no idea or interest at all and just say "Please solve it for me". - Some even say "Now" instead of "Please".

  • People with no or very little understanding of computer science, who got some work to do, but who have no idea of what is going on at all. E.g. just randomly running an SQL command they get from somewhere and wondering why it does not work.

It's becoming frustrating. Just adding to the discussion.

1
  • 1
    People have got the impression that Stack Overflow is a strong community where "every question is answered". you say this like this is a surprise. The charter specifically states it now. It is not an impression, it is what the site is now. we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming. Quality has not been part of the charter in about 5 years now, and has only gotten lip service since they took it out and realized that not focusing on quality gets them more people seeing more ads.
    – user10677470
    Commented Jun 16, 2019 at 15:29
9

As a relatively new programmer, I'm basically learning to code in and out of Java and C++ classes, I obtained most of my base knowledge from Visual Basic years ago..

However, I'll admit that I first came to Stack Overflow to learn some more basic skills and learn the answer to simple questions. Maybe I'm contributing to the overall problem perhaps. I don't like to think that personally - but maybe you're right.

I approached Stack Overflow in the first place because it is a site where many highly experienced programmers come to and discuss programming. Being around experienced programmers such as yourselves and reading your comments and answers inspires me to be a better programmer, ask better questions and learn from your feedback.

I don't want to take your code, I don't want to just take your answers and never return, not at all. I want to learn from my own failings and your feedback so in the future I can tackle issues with ease, and maybe help someone else down the line -- and in the case I do use your techniques I will give credit and my personal thanks.

I respect all of you that are more experienced than I am, and I respect the fact that many of you dislike the naivety of new programmers, but, some of us DO want to learn and some of us DO want to contribute eventually but are still finding our feet.

Please don't turn your backs on the perhaps 'few' new programmers that actually want to learn instead of steal; you were where we were once. Even though I agree that teaching yourself is the best way to learn, this is a good resource to grasp the basics needed to experiment and perform trial and error.

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    I did not learn things by asking. I learned things by coding. Thinking, solving problems and writing code. Only months and months of reading others code and writing your own (3 prototypes thrown away until the 4th does it right). SO can not do it for you. You must do it yourself. Then you will be experienced. It is easier to go and ask someone to think instead of you. But it will never help you grow so much as whey you sweat yourself. Lazy and uneducated people it is what the question is about. SO was not originally meant to be tutorial low cost site for this kind of audience
    – xmojmr
    Commented May 3, 2014 at 19:26
  • As a newer programmer, it might be worth knowing that employers look for devs that know how to figure things out on their own (that includes knowing how to do research) as opposed to being told how to do things.
    – MadConan
    Commented Jun 16, 2015 at 17:18
  • @MadConan I think most employers look for devs that know how to get job done, whatever it takes, and asking questions is one of the most important tools in the toolbox
    – mvidelgauz
    Commented Jul 1, 2016 at 14:10
9

I believe there is only one core reason for bad questions: the OP didn't do any research at all. A person hits a problem and without spending five minutes on it or trying to understand a root cause, he/she start posting it on Stack Overflow.

And generally, this breaks down to two category of questions:

  • Duplicate

All of us stumble on simple problems when we learn a new technology. And all of us will have very similar questions.

  • Lacking even very basic understanding of software development.

That's more troublesome. If a person doesn't have a fundamental understanding, the question is rarely good.

I believe both categories should be solved by closing these questions. And as several person pointed it out, closing questions (specifically in these two categories) should be incentivized.

BTW. The most important to incentivize closing questions only in these two categories. Frankly, I don't like that all closing causes bundled together. As example, I feel that closing a question as opinion-based is overused and closing as duplicate is underused.

Oh.. One more funny idea. Add a field to Stack Overflow, which will ask "How much time did you spend trying to solve this problem on your own?".

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    The "How much time have you spent?" could have some interesting psychological effects, but it won't do anything against help vampires and slackers. They'll just see another field that they must set to such-and-such value to get their question through. They're not here to solve problems on their own, after all, but to let others solve them.
    – Tomalak
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 4:03
  • I think, the only way to stop abusers - to make it more pricy to abuse the system. Closing their questions should achieve this goal. And this question is more to educate newbies (who don't plan to abuse SO) that some time should be spent before posting a question. Commented May 8, 2014 at 14:13
8

I wasn't active on SO for a while. Sometimes I return and try to find a good question to answer, however, got to admit that you're right. Questions' quality is getting worse and worse.

One of the solutions could be to apply some kind of filter to new users (e.g. < 100 rep.), that would automatically close their question if it gots a lot of downvotes - so if they want their question to get answered they must edit & improve its quality - then it could go to reopen queue.

Although questions are getting their answers insanely quickly, I think they get their votes even faster.

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  • 5
    It wouldn't work. A newbie asks a FAQ with half a dozen of related questions answering the problem, and you'd see a flurry of upvotes on the question. It might work if upvotes start costing some rep.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 16:52
  • 1
    Another example of a highly-quality question with multiple upvotes.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 5:06
  • 1
    @devnull: If upvote cost reputation, there should be a way to get it back. Otherwise people would be shy on upvotes. Something like - if the question was closed for any reason within 2-3 days - you don't get your reputation back. Otherwise, you get it back, to encourage healthy upvotes this way. Same for answers, i.e. you upvote an answer, and it gets deleted within 2-3 days - you lost your rep forever. However, to make it profitable, it needs to give an extra rep point, if you vote was helpful. So to upvote, it takes 1 rep, but you get 2 rep back (net +1), if it was a healthy upvote. Commented May 1, 2014 at 1:10
  • @devnull: Which is kind of an interesting way to look at it - you are helping SO sort out content, good from bad, rewarding this activity sounds inline with other reward mechanisms already in place. Commented May 1, 2014 at 1:11
  • @Neolisk I'm not sure how it can be implemented. However, currently upvotes are grossly misused in order to keep poor questions alive so that one's answer could attract upvotes. Repwhores would be shy to put even 1 rep point at stake if were to cost them for an upvote. Moreover, ability to close a question also depends on the community. Those active in a given tag aren't willing to close an obvious duplicate. The close votes usually expire. It's the quality of participants that is going down, which has an effect on everything else.
    – devnull
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 2:06
  • the solution you're reaching for here is that questions should be completely eliminated from the universe, AUTOMATICALLY, after 30 minutes UNLESS, many experts approve that the question is high quality. That's fine and would be worth trying. BUT: as I said above: None of this will happen. SO is now an incredibly slow moving organisation. It's completely pointless talking about radical, "let's try it!" solutions. It simply won't happen. You might as well discuss time travel or aliens.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 10:46
  • IMO problem is that SO wants as much users as possible, most users are crapy and you can't get good from crap (nor questions, nor answers). If you want quality, you ask for quality and filter everything else. But of course then you cannot say that SO have xx million of visitors every day (with generates $$), so you will stuck with high traffic and consequences of that. If you want only tesla vehicles in your city, you can't say everyone can drive here, you can say everyone is welcome, but you can drive only if you drive tesla.
    – Dainius
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 8:29
8

Additional Input From New Users

After reading Dota 2 - Valve is Manipulating Gamers Into Good Behavior it seems like we might be able to improve quality by increasing the amount of input we receive upon a new user asking their first questions.

The article refers to how asking an indirect question about an external factor, such as the cooperation of your teammates, can actually alter the behavior of the player responding to the question.

Along those lines, a survey-type question for new users which makes the user think about the existence of potentially similar questions that have already been answered may help guide their future behavior.

There have been several suggestions of some kind of 'tutorial' for new users but a simple questionnaire requiring some kind of ACTIVE response by new users as they are asking their first questions could be enough.

What if new users presented with the list of possible duplicates had to actively choose a reason that the potential duplicates don't apply to them?

A simple 'Does this answer your question: Yes [ ] No [ ]' or a dropdown with reasons why it doesn't apply might not be immediately helpful to anyone trying to act as a moderator but there is some potential to shape the user's behavior.

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    I honestly don't believe in the "it's a newbie, they just don't know how to work the site" hypothesis. "Newbie" is not part of the reason. Carelessness is. A newbie who cares will read the help the site literally pushes in their face. They will know how Markdown works. They will actually look at the preview the editor produces and will improve the question if looks ugly. They will think of including an error message they ask about and steps to reproduce it because they actually took the time and think how their question might look to a third person.
    – Tomalak
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 6:28
8

Some form of filtering might solve this problem, i.e. your search results or home page is filtered to show results in your rep peer group, that way new comers help new comers with simpler questions or assistance on how to use Google, and veteran SO users aren't disenchanted by the quality or complexity of questions.

As a self taught PHP and Java dev, SO has been crucial in helping me understand the languages, and incredibly valuable in helping me understand the concepts and facets of each language that I should focus on.

I don't think that SO should make it harder for these questions to stick, but instead find a way to get intro-level users to help each other, perhaps by requiring the new user to answer a couple of "just read the docs" questions (that more senior users can tag as such).

This way new users are answering the questions that really should've been Googled, which hopefully will prevent them from asking similar questions.

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