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I do this thing very often, where I see the first two or three lines of an answer and make a quick decision about voting on it; I upvote if I think it is nice/correct/adds value, or downvote otherwise. Then after reading the full answer, I change my mind, and want to remove the upvote/downvote.

However, for long answers, due to vote locking, the vote can't be edited!! This has happened thrice for me.

So I pretty much end up voting on answers based on my immediate impression of the answer.

I think Stack Overflow, and all Stack Exchange sites want their votes to accurately reflect quality. In order to facilitate this, how about placing the up/down vote buttons at the bottom of answers? (They can still be on the left side, but at the bottom). This would be similar to the edit button which is placed at the bottom as well, which encourages users to edit only after reading the entire content.

This may annoy some users, e.g., this might feel like "Accept Terms" buttons being placed below a wall of text, forcing one to scroll to the bottom of text that one doesn't intend to read anyway (even though one should). Regardless, I feel that in this case, making it harder to vote without first reading the contents will have a net positive benefit for the site. If we can use psychology to get people to participate more productively, this is a good thing.

For example, Reddit does something similar to this already:
A reddit comment with the up/down voting buttons on a line below the answer

This is more like a nice company placing "Accept Terms" buttons at the bottom, so one has to scroll through the entire contents, while others either hide it with a tiny link or make the accept button blue and clickable even without scrolling.

My initial idea was to just have the button down in same left column, I didn't think of placing it below answer in edit/follow. But I am not a design expert. I thus have no idea on the other buttons like bookmark, score,activity and open.

Many said that this would reduce visibility of vote button, saying users already vote less and this will reduce it further. This is such a bad excuse in my view, for one, the site is not aiming to get more votes of question, answer. We need valuable votes. People who read the answer fully are only expected to vote it, and this design will not reduce voting of such people. Infact this will increase voting of such people who are however lazy to scroll up to vote, but the voting button can't be made sticky as majority refuses to it as it distracts a lot. Such people who read fully would be interested in voting it before they pass to next answer.

In such case the value of a vote will increase, and to balance it we can increase reputation increase/decrease of vote if required. Second, the increase or decrease in voting will be proportional. I do see the difficulty that can arise if value of vote increases, to balance account reputations.
I didn't ask the same for question because questions really are voted less, and their votes are from valuable user opinion. Psychologically it is as explained in other discussions, people don't see the vote button but the question first.

But the problem in case of question is laziness to scroll up to vote. These are again only on questions which don't convey what's the problem within first few lines, title. However, a similar design with voting at bottom footer of question or bottom left column on questions might be able to solve that, but for a different reason than that of answers, and it will increase votes on questions, a good increase in number, but again the number is not the matter, it is matter of reading and voting and the read and vote count on questions would increase. This design can be considered for questions as well, but in this post.I am asking only about answers, not willing to deviate the topic from its origin. On the other hand, votes in long famous answers are more presumption than a careful choice.

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  • 16
    It should, at the very least, follow the scrolling (which would address some of your issues), so that if you're at the end of a long answer that you want to upvote, you don't have to scroll back to the top. There may be an existing feature request for that.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Nov 26 at 13:26
  • 1
    @RyanM I have seen a meta feature request on this whose answer is what you said, to have the voting button sticky, but what I mean is not for the ease of voters that they don't want to scroll to top to vote, but for site to drive people to first read before vote.
    – redoc
    Commented Nov 26 at 13:32
  • 1
    Yeah, I agree that this is a different idea (and I upvoted your post - I think it could be worth testing). But that would address at least some of the problem (for example, making it easier to change one's mind after reading through the answer).
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Nov 26 at 13:34
  • 11
    I like. I like it a lot. I don't necessarily agree it needs to follow scrolling, you should read the entire thing anyway before you vote. That seems like unnecessary UI trouble that does not scale across different devices. I would normally say "the problem is you for voting too fast", but you wouldn't be the only one. It's better to design things with flawed human beings in mind.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 26 at 13:41
  • 3
    The idea has merit. Very frustrating when you have written a detailed answer and then within seconds after posting get a down vote. They voter can't even have read the answer in that time, but just found some detail early on that didn't sit well. Same phenomenon exists with up-votes.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 26 at 15:42
  • 1
    I've used a userscript (Post Headers & Question TOC of SamuelLiew's set of excellent mod scripts) that makes the voting buttons scroll for ages; I can't imagine having them another way precisely for the reasons you present. It feels odd and jarring when reading a long post to have to scroll back up the page to vote on content. Here's how it looks.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Nov 26 at 16:07
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    @TylerH Because the people who vote after 1 second are evidently lazy people who can't be arsed to even scroll down?
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 26 at 16:15
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    @SecurityHound let's be honest here - this is not really just OP. In fact, it does happen very often. A post that started going in a given direction often follows the traction. Many things got to 5 or even 10 upvotes for no actual reason. Just that they were upvoted. They are either existing or even worse solutions. Especially if you look around old questions - newer (say, 5 years after publishing the question. And still years before today) answers that repeat existing information and don't add any value (arguably they dilute it) have some bizarrely positive scores. I doubt OP is responsible
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 26 at 17:53
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    @JohnMontgomery The question is rather: did it stop you from not reading things before voting?
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 27 at 7:43
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    Removing the vote lock or extending the timeout would also solve this problem. (Not to say this isn't a good idea, I upvoted after reading the first paragraph; just pointing out there's other solutions too.) Commented Nov 27 at 10:31
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    You're talking about 2 different components... Asking questions is not the same thing as reading them is, @Lundin...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 27 at 15:52
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    Consuming content and posting it are apples and oranges. Not to mention that this question completely ignores the fact that a displayed vote count is extremely useful before reading a question, to determine if you should even bother reading the question.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 27 at 16:20
  • 1
    @Lundin I don't think that's true. If someone is downvoting an answer immediately after it is posted, it is not because they are lazy, it is likely because they are voting "tactically"; either they don't think the question should be answered, or they don't want the answer they're downvoting to appear above or at the same score as another answer that already exists or will exist soon (possibly their own). I don't think moving the vote buttons to below the answer will meaningfully change that kind of behavior at all.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 27 at 17:14
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    @TylerH those designs should be consistent, though.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 27 at 17:23
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    Frankly, I would like the voting buttons to move with you as you go on the post... Commented Nov 28 at 1:56

4 Answers 4

16

I disagree that putting the voting buttons at the bottom of the post is a good solution. For starters, that's way less visible, a major change to one of the basic layout tenets of the site since its creation, and semantically a place for changing the status of a post, not the score of it. I think you will see an order of magnitude less voting if you do that. And users already vote way less than they should on answers today, making an already bad problem worse.

The ideal solution is instead one of user education: simply don't vote on answers until you've read the whole thing. That should be fairly easy for you to do.

In the event that that is difficult, you can mildly improve the situation (e.g. to avoid having to waste precious moments and effort scrolling up and down on long answers) with a user style that implements sticky voting buttons for answers, using styles like this (I wrote this CSS a couple of years ago and have been using it ever since):

/* Makes the score and voting buttons for a post move with the viewport */
#answers .votecell .js-voting-container {
    position: sticky;
    top: 100px;
    z-index: 1;
}
/* Fixes the width of the tooltips which broke due to sticky positioning */
div.js-voting-container button.js-vote-up-btn + div.s-popover[role="tooltip"] {
    min-width: 150px;
    text-align: center;
    padding: 11px;
}
div.js-voting-container button.js-vote-down-btn + div.s-popover[role="tooltip"] {
    min-width: 170px;
    text-align: center;
    padding: 11px;
}
.js-voting-container div.js-vote-count + div.s-popover[role="tooltip"] {
    min-width: 217px;
}
button.js-saves-btn + div.s-popover {
    min-width: 128px;
}
a.js-post-issue + div.s-popover {
    min-width: 140px;
}

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  • Maybe post this to StackApps?!! This old script is broken: stackapps.com/questions/7999/floating-vote-buttons-script Commented Nov 27 at 15:53
  • Wouldn't the fix rather being to keep the vote buttons invisible until the user has at the very least scrolled past the whole answer? Same mechanic as the one handling out the "informed" badge in the tour.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 27 at 16:00
  • @Lundin That's unnecessary and harmful (read: time-wasting) in cases where the answer is present at the top of or beginning of the answer, or where the quality of the answer is generally discernable without having to read the entire thing. It would also be expensive JavaScript that wouldn't even make a difference for probably 90% of the time (where no scrolling is needed to see the entire post).
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 27 at 17:16
  • @M-- Sure, I might do that. I'll have to rig up an actual "app" wrapper for it since right now it's just CSS styles that get applied by a browser add-on that handles the app part for me.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 27 at 17:18
  • @TylerH yeah, but if you don't wanna spend the time, you can put it up on userstyles.world and refer to that so people can get Stylus add-on and install from there. Commented Nov 27 at 19:55
  • 1
    "The ideal solution is instead one of user education: simply don't vote on answers until you've read the whole thing." - The second best solution is simply to read faster as the vote is not locked in instantly but only afer a grace period (10 minutes IIRC).
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 28 at 8:56
  • @l4mpi The grace period is 5 minutes, but yes, most answers can be (finished being) read in 5 minutes. And, worst case, you can usually find something to edit to remove the lock, if it's that important to be able to retract your vote.
    – TylerH
    Commented Dec 2 at 15:10
13

The score of an answer (or question) is one of the most important pieces of information about it. Being able to see the score first tells me whether it is worth my time reading a long post, trying to make sense of a post that looks dense or difficult to understand, testing whether an unlikely-looking code snippet actually solves my problem, or so on.

I have a weak preference to keep the voting buttons where they are, but a very strong preference to keep the score where it is; and it would be strange if the voting buttons didn't appear in the same place as the score.

1
  • The visibility of the score is a good point. It'd be pretty dumb to render it twice just to be able to move the buttons.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 28 at 14:39
5

I really like this idea.

It does have its downsides, for example making the voting buttons less visible will on average reduce the number of people who interact with them, but maybe that's not such a bad thing. We want people voting on posts for reasons that matter, rather than because there's a vote button and badges and we feel obligated to vote. We want votes to signify the value of the content and that really only works if people are voting on things they feel strongly about rather than just because there's a vote button there.

I think this would also reduce the amount of pre-judgement that happens due to the current score of the question or answer. If you don't see the score until you scroll down (or there isn't even a score at all and you instead just directly see vote totals!) there's less chance of people just voting the way everyone else did, and maybe we can lessen the voting rep requirements and allow a larger percentage of our active users to vote if there's less instant/reactionary voting.

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  • 5
    I think placing the score early is a benefit. A reader seeking an answer can abort early rather than reading to the bottom and seeing the negative score. Commented Nov 26 at 18:00
  • 1
    that's certainly also a downside, not entirely sure how problematic is in the grand scheme of things.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 26 at 18:32
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    "for example making the voting buttons less visible will on average reduce the number of people who interact with them" That's a dealbreaker to me. People don't vote enough, already. Anything that reduces visibility of those buttons is a bad idea, imho.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 27 at 14:05
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    The visibility I don't find too much of a problem, the new placement would be in-line with other sites such as Youtube. It falls within an expectation pattern.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 27 at 14:51
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    @Gimby YouTube has a single video as primary content. The rest is "extra", so it makes sense to place the rest under the video. On Stack OVerflow, vote count is almost just as important as the question itself.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 27 at 16:02
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    "I think this would also reduce the amount of pre-judgement that happens due to the current score" - That's probably the biggest downside though. You're suggesting that all users are pre-judging content to know how they should vote themselves (no evidence that actually occurs, though I'd suspect it might be true on Meta). But the vast majority of users are visiting a question to find a solution to their problem, in a situation that exactly warrants them being able to pre-judge the answers to know which ones are worth their time to read. Pre-judgment is a goal, not a flaw.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Nov 27 at 17:42
  • @animuson I agree 'Pre-judgment is a goal, not a flaw' , prejudgment before reading to read it is a goal, but prejudgment before reading to vote it is not a goal. It is a cognitive bias-called Bandwagon effect, that is to be avoided when voting I suppose.
    – redoc
    Commented Nov 27 at 17:51
  • 2
    I just don't think it's that important that i know the score of an answer before reading the solution it is providing. i may be in a minority, i don't know, but even low scoring answers can provide useful information, even if they may not be the best answer. Generally i'm looking for a specific solution anyway, such that which answer is highest scored isn't as important as whether or not the solution is relevant to what i'm doing.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 27 at 20:30
  • 1
    You're more than a bit more experienced at picking and choosing, filtering the wrong from the right, than many users. It's a balancing act, not alienating the beginners while still giving the others something worth chewing on. Commented Nov 27 at 21:57
4

Keep in mind that changing this for questions also means changing this for answers, as those designs should be consistent.
This means that the "accept" checkmark would need to move, as well.

There is currently no space under questions or answers, to make the UI elements just as large (and thus visible), as they are in the current design.
So, moving the votes below a question will either reduce the vote's visibility or require further scrolling, as questions and answers take up more vertical space.

Furthermore, I'd like to see a question's score before I spend my time reading it. If it's heavily downvoted, I'd probably not waste my time on it.


The solution to your problem statement is simple:

Don't vote on content you haven't read.

Imho, users already don't vote enough.
I don't see how moving these votes to a less visible position fixes any problem that can't be fixed by just reading first, which is what you should be doing, any way.

6
  • The "elevator buttons" are kind of ridiculously large even when not zooming in due to a high resolution screen. However, various reading/viewing disabilities would have to be taken in account and I don't know enough about UI design to even have opinions about that.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 27 at 16:08
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    @Lundin making them smaller likely negatively affects usage, coming back to my point of people not voting enough in the first place.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 27 at 16:09
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    I agree that people not voting enough (it is in decline) is a very valid concern.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 27 at 16:14
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    Possibly the score should not be with the voting buttons. Prehaps we need two widgets: One at the top with the current score and accepted status. And one at the bottom with th voting buttons. The score is relevant when you decide to read it, but shouldn't really be relevant to how you vote. Commented Nov 27 at 17:36
  • Why would you separate the score from the voting buttons? How would a new user then know the two are related? I don't mean to be blunt, but that feels as if we're just trying to come up with workarounds for a change that really doesn't feel all that necessary.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 27 at 20:12
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    If it's heavily downvoted, it will be greyed out anyway.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 27 at 20:35

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