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What is the consensus? Aside from this thread..

Bad questions should not be rewarded with answers (good OR bad) because the OP should learn how to properly formulate a well-thought-out question by providing insight, necessary detail, and an example if necessary (sample code, SQL, etc.). These may not be as intuitive on the first go-around.

By providing answers to questions that have a score of -5 or more, aren't we rewarding something that the community been trying squash for the past several months now?

Isn't it logical that if a question has a score of -5 then it has not been well-perceived by the community? This entails quality, format, discerning any logical question out of a post, proper location (Belongs on another SE site), lack of information/effort, etc. Questions that aren't well-perceived by the community are most likely not presenting any real value to the community, and thus do not meet the site's/community's standards.

Doesn't the [Reversal] badge kind of motivate people to answer these sort of low-quality questions?

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    Related: Is it ok to answer downvoted questions? Commented Oct 1, 2014 at 13:46
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    It is, roughly. It does not mean that the question can't be rescued, there are new badges for that. Example: stackoverflow.com/questions/10542310/… Commented Oct 1, 2014 at 13:48
  • @HansPassant While I see that those questions can easily be perceived as duplicates, I would not immediately label them as such. That, and the first three comments, could have lead to the 15 downvotes. I'm sure some downvotes were given because the solution is in the PHP manual, and some upvotes were given in passing time because people who didn't read the manual found them useful. What I'm trying to say is, should that question have been downvoted to oblivion? Just a thought.
    – Mark C.
    Commented Oct 1, 2014 at 13:56
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    I personally find this kind of Q+A extraordinarily disruptive. A language just cannot innovate anymore when most of its manual is frozen in time by SO questions. But that's just my opinion, clearly SO users don't think about it the same way. Commented Oct 1, 2014 at 14:09
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    Counterexample: stackoverflow.com/a/3905805.
    – TRiG
    Commented Oct 1, 2014 at 15:08
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    @TRiG I think this counterexample doesn't really apply, because the downvotes are likely not caused by the quality of the question, but the community suspecting a black-hat/script kid attempt to spam people. This only applies to very few downvotes questions.
    – dirkk
    Commented Oct 1, 2014 at 15:17
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    @TRiG It's not a counterexample - it's a fine example of a bad question according to nowadays standards. The fact that the answer is good doesn't mean anything in this context. Any question can be answered with a nice, elaborate answer that will be useful to many people. Doesn't change the fact, that the question is bad.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Oct 1, 2014 at 15:49
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    We'll always have some repwhores around. Most of the answers are coming from them. I tend to downvote not just the question, but all the answers too. Commented Oct 1, 2014 at 16:29
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    In soviet SO community consensus goes against you (sorry, couldn't resist)
    – Geeky Guy
    Commented Oct 1, 2014 at 16:35
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    @Renan ?...
    – Mark C.
    Commented Oct 1, 2014 at 16:36
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    It might also be interesting that a really high percentage of the few answers awarded with the badge are post deleted or otherwise unavailable Commented Oct 1, 2014 at 18:05
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    This question was asked by a new user, and had a score of minus -5. Now, while still by no means perfect, I would consider it to be at least acceptable by SO standards. The point I'm trying to make is that some questions, even after being salvaged, will never recover from their initial downvotes, and that those initial downvotes only represent the community consensus as it was at the time the question was active/visible. Commented Oct 2, 2014 at 3:43
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    @RobbyCornelissen - Relevant meta post. Commented Oct 2, 2014 at 6:05
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    @OverMind Know your meme: Russian reversal (particularly apt considering the subject of this question). Commented Oct 2, 2014 at 21:03
  • @ThisSuitIsBlackNot thanks, haha.. I was wondering what the hell he was talking about.
    – Mark C.
    Commented Oct 2, 2014 at 21:05

2 Answers 2

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Sure it goes against consensus. Consensus is also known as mob rule, and mobs are not always right. They are also less than famous for mercy or common sense.

If I may repurpose a joke from British television:

It's a one of those irregular verbs, Minister. You make mistakes, he screws up, they are incompetent ninnies. We pretend nothing happened, which is usually what it amounts to in the long run.

Humour aside, anyone who doesn't appreciate the perils of consensus ought to read about groupthink and how it nearly brought about nuclear apocalypse.

While arguably Stack Overflow is a popularity contest, ideology is a poor basis for problem solving or decision making. It is, in my opinion, an appalling abuse of power to censor either a question or an answer merely because it clashes with one's ideology or aesthetic. Tragically, not only is Stack Overflow rife with this sort of conduct, it actively encourages it with rules for "good fit".

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    Unfortunately, against your point, consensus is the ideology and general majority vote in this community. That's what drives change on SO. I know you said they are not always right, but keep in mind that majority (community, mob, users, whatever) is what drives the site. So, saying the majority is wrong is almost relative, situation and timeline pending.
    – Mark C.
    Commented Oct 2, 2014 at 23:18
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    I'm playing devil's advocate, a vital role in my opinion.
    – Peter Wone
    Commented Oct 2, 2014 at 23:20
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    Your argument would be more convincing if you discussed groupthink stifling intellectual freedom instead of jumping straight to nuclear apocalypse. Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 0:22
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    Nuclear apocalypse makes a better headline.
    – Peter Wone
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 4:14
  • @OverMind: btw, have you any data about the "majority"? How do you know what is the community consensus? Or is it just a feeling (perhaps correct)?
    – jfs
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 6:48
  • @J.F.Sebastian follow meta. That's my data.
    – Mark C.
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 7:09
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    @OverMind: I'm not surprised. There are more people that can't read properly than people who know what is scientific method. Though it is sad to observe a rampant anti-intellectualism even from people that work in technical fields such as programming.
    – jfs
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 7:23
  • @J.F.Sebastian I'm not sure what a rampant anti-intellectualism is. And thank you for your opinion. I haven't seen anything rampant here. Did you want to highlight some example?
    – Mark C.
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 12:16
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    Re. "Nuclear apocalypse makes a better headline." Exactly. It's like you're trying to give weight to your argument by suggesting an association between behavior on Stack Overflow and something shocking and attention-grabbing, regardless of any real link. Could questions being closed on Stack Overflow ever lead to an event like the Cuban missile crisis? Not likely. Your reference to nuclear war in answer to a question about badges on an internet site is unwarranted hyperbole that, in my mind, weakens your argument. Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 12:34
  • wikipedia answers what is Anti-intellectualism. "rampant" is of course an opinion (how often do you see posts on meta that backup their self-righteous claims with data, any data (especially given that data.stackexchange.com exists and data dumps are available -- there are positive examples though). Your comment: "follow meta. That's my data." is a (minor) example. Either you don't understand why such comment might be wrong (burden of proof fallacy) or you just don't care.
    – jfs
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 13:25
  • @J.F.Sebastian Is this data good enough? Meta is basically a 'collab' board where the community can discuss certain topics involving SO. Recently, there have been several very popular threads surrounding not answering bad questions, an influx of bad questions, and the waning support of experts due to such conditions. If you followed meta, you would have noticed these - that's what my comment was referencing. Either you don't have experience on meta to know what I am talking about, or you are asking about 'data' when I am discussing community consensus
    – Mark C.
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 14:11
  • @thissuitisblacknot My answer was shocking, historically significant, relevant, autosatirical and not in the least pompous, overbearing or dull. Chances are high that people actually thought about it, which it's all I wanted. The fact that I can come up with a killer headline and you can't doesn't invalidate my argument. Ad hominem argument is an archetypal logical fallacy.
    – Peter Wone
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 14:36
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    @Peter, lolololol. When you're ready to come down from your high horse we'll welcome you with open arms.
    – Kirk Woll
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 14:42
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    @Peter, I think your last paragraph has distracted from the core of your answer: I read your main point as saying that the reversal badge encourages some checks on SO's habitual groupthink, which may be SO's modus operandi but has its limitations. Aye to that: It does happen that a question is misunderstood, people pile on, and a shining knight later comes along and sets things right with an insightful answer.
    – alexis
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 16:19
  • Claiming "meta" is the "majority consensus" would imply that the majority uses meta and in that is in consensus. I've not seen the numbers, but I doubt the majority even knows about meta and that those who do are all in agreement? Likely it's the most active on meta and theirs consensus - but that is indeed a different state altogether. Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 17:08
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Any question should be answered, even if it is not 'clearly formatted'.

Why?

Because 'clearly' depends on perception. As well as many other things. Like 'opinion based' - What's 'opinion' for you, is someone else's circumstance.

Being a recently new user i have been alienated from using stack overflow to a great extent by some mod coming and killing my quite elaborate question as 'opinion based' -> ironically, based on HIS opinion. He apparently 'solved' in his head a long standing debate in database design, based on HIS experience with a particular format. He graciously left the question to vote, so that it could get reopened if it got 5 votes to appeal it, but hey - that's like repealing an act after it passes a parliament.

People act on their own opinions and circumstances, and their opinions and circumstances may not match the reality of the person asking the question. A random, intricate and specific sounding situation may be an answer to a situation affecting a certain subset of people in a certain industry subset's specific circumstances. Which, may turn into something which affects huge numbers of people in an industry or field due to changes in times, tech, environment or any other factor.

That is why all questions should be answered, and why over moderation is a bad thing.

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    I am going to say that 'clearly formatted' is not ambiguous. Give the community the right tools and background and they will be able to solve (most) any question. I am talking about information answerers need to answer a question and give the question meaning on this site.I am not sure I can speak on your behalf of your questions getting closed, but I have seen questions voted to close be reopened if it were deemed necessary. Sometimes people make mistakes, sure. Your second paragraph is insulting knowledgable people, saying that they basically don't act with reason, but only opinion.
    – Mark C.
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 1:37
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    No. "plz add teh code" questions deserve to be downvoted massively, then closed, then deleted. They don't deserve an answer.
    – ken2k
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 10:22
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    "Any question should be answered" - nope. "What's 'opinion' for you, is someone else's circumstance" - nope, that's formatting. If you can remove the opinion from it ("Which is faster" versus "Which is better"), it's a valid question. If you can't, your question can't be properly answered within the constraints put up by Stack Overflow.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 10:26
  • Going by opinion in these comments, whatever Stack Overflow might stand for, it isn't free speech. Would it kill you to just ignore lame questions instead of persecuting people for their language skills or lack of education? The genuinely lazy will be ignored, others will be understood by someone done or later. I know exactly where this guy is coming from, I've had questions of my own treated like this. The jerks who voted to close knew what I meant but they were more interested in their Question Nazi badge than helping anyone.
    – Peter Wone
    Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 14:56
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    If something is a subject of long-standing debate, it's clearly opinion-based. SO is oriented around generating canonical answers -- light, not heat. Commented Oct 3, 2014 at 17:22
  • @PeterWone: Yes, this site isn't for free speech, especially the completely unlimited kind. Insisting on no moderation means welcoming all kinds of garbage, making SNR drop like a stone. As Shog9 said: Get your own soap box. Commented Dec 23, 2015 at 20:39
  • Yeah. definitely that makes SO very useful for trying to get any information regarding things like EAV vs Relational database question. lets not talk about it until 'somehow' it gets settled in the coming decade. wait - some guy with mod points on SO settled it already!!! thankfully, places like quora exist, where you can act actual questions on serious matters and get real answers instead of unproductive arrogance.
    – unity100
    Commented Dec 24, 2015 at 0:29

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