118

I'm only asking this here, because the badge may have applications outside of Stack Overflow (for example, the main Stack Exchange Meta), but if it belongs on http://meta.stackexchange.com, all the better.

In the last few days, I've seen a growing, frustrating trend, of people answering egregiously bad, heavily-downvoted, off-topic, low-effort or homework questions.

Then someone will upvote the answer, because it is correct, even if they just did someone's homework, then another upvote will get added, then another, and then someone will comment "Here comes the reversal badge!"

Why? Why should someone get a gold badge for doing someone else's homework?

Or the scenario that prompted me to ask, just now, was that the answer-giver to an oft-asked, easily-Googleable, minimal-effort question got a downvote, then another, then a third, and they commented, "No reason to down vote it ! How else can you get the https://stackoverflow.com/help/badges/95/reversal".

How, indeed!

I understand the badge originally existed for outstanding answers on poor questions, but with the trend SO has taken in recent years to clean up and remove poor questions ("broken windows"), so...

  • Does the Reversal badge have a place on Stack Overflow anymore, especially if it just encourages badge hunters to intentionally answer seriously low-quality questions?
  • Can badges be retired so that those have earned it can keep it, but it can't be earned anymore?
24
  • 61
    Playing devil's advocate but considering this has only been awarded 190 times on SO, is this that much of a problem? The last one being awarded in October for a question asked in March - it doesn't seem that this is awarded enough to be a huge issue.
    – Taryn
    Nov 21, 2014 at 17:38
  • 33
    @bluefeet - I knew someone was going to ask that, thanks for asking! Just because it's only been awarded 190 times clearly hasn't deterred people from trying, based on the comments I quoted. If you make it available, people will try to unlock it. It's probably as low as it is because the community is usually darn quick at cleaning up messes. Why should a subset of the community be able to play games with upvotes to earn badges on lousy questions? Nov 21, 2014 at 17:39
  • 4
    Happy to ask the hard questions! But do you have any links to comments where this has been asked? Or have you queries SEDE to see how often these comments pop-up? I'm not disagreeing with your request, just trying to flesh out the extent of the issue. :)
    – Taryn
    Nov 21, 2014 at 17:41
  • 6
    @LittleBobbyTables (the serious part ...) Well, questions and answers are different things. Though I have to agree such an award mainly encourages the rep-whores answering the help vampires (and I dislike such of course) :-P ... Nov 21, 2014 at 17:47
  • 7
    i.stack.imgur.com/MW9QR.gif
    – gnat
    Nov 21, 2014 at 17:49
  • 1
    @gnat Yup! Seen that very enlightening diagram before, that was exactly what I had in mind. Nov 21, 2014 at 17:51
  • 1
    Can you get the badge if the question is closed? Can it be taken away if the question is closed after you get it?
    – user1228
    Nov 21, 2014 at 18:02
  • 33
    Agreed that this badge sends a mixed message. On one hand, there's a constant stream of "don't answer bad questions! don't feed the help vampires!" here on meta. And then there's a gold badge for answering bad questions. Badges are supposed to encourage good behavior, and I don't think this one does. Nov 21, 2014 at 18:09
  • 3
    Aww, the rep-whores have detected this meta question, I've certainly seen over 10 upvotes here. Nov 21, 2014 at 18:26
  • 2
    @MartijnPieters Should be no, yes.
    – user1228
    Nov 21, 2014 at 18:54
  • 7
    did you consider how Reversal "interplays" with recently introduced Explainer -> Refiner -> Illuminator badges? It feels like these somewhat clash: refinement badges encourage answerer to improve the question while Reversal makes answerer wish it sink down further...
    – gnat
    Nov 21, 2014 at 19:18
  • 4
    Another pro argument you could use is that reversal answers mostly end up being deleted. More info about this, here. Not sure if I agree retiring the badge, but something could be done to improve its effect upon the site. Nov 21, 2014 at 20:47
  • 10
    This is an excellent idea. Remove that badge, please! Nov 22, 2014 at 7:51
  • 6
    Personally, I think that stackoverflow.com/a/3905805/209139 deserves the badge.
    – TRiG
    Nov 24, 2014 at 11:05
  • 1
    As announced on the blog we've retired Reversal and implemented two variations on Ben Voigt's idea. Jun 18, 2019 at 20:35

3 Answers 3

48

Questions meeting the criteria for the reversal badge are not bad of necessity. There do exist a small number of questions that are downvoted because of lack of understanding by the voter. That wouldn't lead to a score of -5 or below, except for the existence of voting rings which the moderators tolerate despite the fact that they generally involve abuse of the rules1. Of course, there is a very strong correlation between -5 and questions that truly suck.

I've come across a few cases myself where the "common knowledge" is incorrect. Most often that results in swarms of upvotes on incorrect answers, but I'm sure that sometimes it affects questions.

If we could find a way to make the Reversal badge only apply to giving great answers to questions which were misunderstood, it would make it exceptionally difficult to earn, which is not a problem -- it is after all a gold badge, and also stop people using it as an excuse to feed vampires.

The linked question bemoans the fact that the deletion of a question where a Reversal badge was earned makes it more difficult for them to earn a second. I disagree that this is in any way a problem. If a negatively scored question gets deleted even with a highly voted answer clarifying the situation, then it isn't misunderstood, it's bad. Let's celebrate the way deletion gives demerits against future Reversal badges, by making it an explicit feature.

For example, the Reversal could require that the question stay open and undeleted for another 30 days, and there could be a 10k+ tool for viewing candidates. It would be a good place for people hunting for "Refiner" badges, because this list would collect the on-topic but misunderstood questions.

How about this: Reversal is changed to require that the question have -5 score when the answer is posted, the answer gets +20, and the question later (possibly with edits) reaches +5 score. These criteria should prevent it from ever being awarded for answering true garbage.

12
  • 3
    Good idea. I would even deem it sufficient for the question to come back to a positive (+0) total score after posting the answer. Nov 23, 2014 at 17:04
  • 1
    Just consider one change to your proposal, it should be enough if the question reaches -5 up to a day after posting the answer, no need for it already having -5 then. Or should that also be a (mostly ineffectual) stand against FGITW? (Maybe I'm seeing that wrong, not that sure...) Nov 23, 2014 at 17:04
  • I'm not so sure that seeing a question vote swing differential of +10 is likely. Most questions that are downvoted beyond -2 seldom make it back up to 0, let alone anything positive beyond that...
    – Makoto
    Nov 24, 2014 at 3:18
  • @Makoto: Most questions that go down below -2 really are terrible. This is supposed to be about the rare exception.
    – Ben Voigt
    Nov 24, 2014 at 3:28
  • I suppose what should be done is to take a look at the questions on SO that have earned someone this badge and take a look at their average score. There may be one or two that have broken positive, but my gut feeling is that the average score may hover around -2.
    – Makoto
    Nov 24, 2014 at 3:29
  • @Makoto: The low quality of "most of the questions that have earned someone the badge" is the reason people are talking about getting rid of it. We need to raise the quality bar.
    – Ben Voigt
    Nov 24, 2014 at 3:32
  • Yeah--I see questions go negative that aren't necessarily bad/easily searchable/etc. just maybe annoyingly n00bish (or they ask how to do something whose wisdom reasonable people disagree on, or asker can't state the problem precisely but gets the idea across, or they're initially useless but get fixed, or other things). I don't want to see things sunk too easily. "Gets back to +0" seems good to me.
    – twotwotwo
    Nov 24, 2014 at 3:59
  • (Looking at questions that made it from from -2 to positive could be an interesting exercise.)
    – twotwotwo
    Nov 24, 2014 at 4:00
  • 4
    I like this answer because it takes account of how excruciatingly annoying it is when people herd-vote a question down because they don't understand it. Especially relevant in tumbleweed tags. Nov 24, 2014 at 15:36
  • it still encourages people to answer rubbish, I think it's best to avoid it and perhaps offer people a badge for a posts that undergo a reversal from -5 to a positive value generally meta.stackexchange.com/questions/279285/…
    – user3956566
    May 13, 2016 at 8:04
  • 3
    A great big tip o' the hat to you! We announced on the blog we've retired Reversal and implemented two variations on your idea! Jun 18, 2019 at 20:34
  • 3
    @JonEricson: Very glad to see it worked out.
    – Ben Voigt
    Jun 18, 2019 at 22:47
34

Update ×2: implemented June 18, 2019

See announcement blog post.

Update: declined, August 19, 2016

Michael Stum has been investigating the potential implementation of a more enlightened version of this badge, along the lines described in Ben Voigt's answer and discussed further below in this one.

Unfortunately, calculating the score of Q&A at various points in time makes the proposed replacement criteria too expensive to implement. Performing these calculations in a query requires walking the entire votes table, consuming large amounts of memory for most sites; this would put undue strain on the system. Tracking data for these separately would add an unacceptable level of complexity.

It's a nice idea; I wish we could do it. But it's not going to be possible, now or in the foreseeable future.


Original

I was kinda underwhelmed by this question discussion at first. I remember the discussion that originally suggested the Reversal badge (yes, way back in the User Voice days) - by the time the badge rolled out, the terrible question that inspired it had already been deleted! Even then, it was pretty obvious that earning this badge was gonna be like winning the lottery - a nice reward, but not really sensible to play for.

...Then I saw Ben Voigt's suggestion:

How about this: Reversal is changed to require that the question have -5 score when the answer is posted, the answer gets +20, and the question later (possibly with edits) reaches +5 score. These criteria should prevent it from ever being awarded for answering true garbage.

That... Sounds really cool. Especially since those criteria dovetail nicely with some other badges we recently rolled out. I had to see what it would actually turn up...

Run this code snippet to see the results:

<h2>Answers scoring >= 20 on questions scoring <= -5 when the answer was posted and now scoring >= 5</h2> 
<table><tr><th>Question Score</th><th>Answer Score</th><th>Answer Link</th><th>Answered</th><th>Current Reversal Badge</th></tr> 
<tr><td>31</td><td>40</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/17631035">Is there an opposite to display:none?</a></td><td>Jul 13 2013  2:22PM</td><td></td></tr>                                  
<tr><td>5</td><td>27</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/17425080">can't convert Symbol into String</a></td><td>Jul  2 2013 12:00PM</td><td></td></tr>                                        
<tr><td>89</td><td>168</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/14788468">How to install JDK on Ubuntu (Linux)?</a></td><td>Feb  9 2013  1:06PM</td><td></td></tr>                                 
<tr><td>17</td><td>24</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/14414488">Why 0 ** 0 equals 1 in python</a></td><td>Jan 19 2013 12:43PM</td><td></td></tr>                                          
<tr><td>69</td><td>145</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/12614698">What's the difference between MyISAM and InnoDB?</a></td><td>Sep 27 2012  5:33AM</td><td></td></tr>                      
<tr><td>7</td><td>48</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/11759800">Upload Android app to google play step by step...?</a></td><td>Aug  1 2012 12:57PM</td><td></td></tr>                      
<tr><td>14</td><td>23</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/11061352">How to get TimeZone from android mobile?</a></td><td>Jun 16 2012  6:25AM</td><td></td></tr>                               
<tr><td>5</td><td>25</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/10347205">Forecasting time series data</a></td><td>Apr 27 2012  8:20AM</td><td></td></tr>                                            
<tr><td>11</td><td>21</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/9737529">How to Remove BOM from an XML file in Java</a></td><td>Mar 16 2012 12:48PM</td><td></td></tr>                              
<tr><td>30</td><td>66</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/9679614">Run an exe from C# code</a></td><td>Mar 13 2012  7:00AM</td><td></td></tr>                                                 
<tr><td>53</td><td>80</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/8928888">How to make a whole 'div' clickable in html and css without javascript?</a></td><td>Jan 19 2012  3:41PM</td><td></td></tr> 
<tr><td>15</td><td>34</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/8882358">How to get the first element of the List or Set?</a></td><td>Jan 16 2012  3:41PM</td><td></td></tr>                        
<tr><td>10</td><td>26</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/8612289">Array of PHP Objects</a></td><td>Dec 23 2011  4:35AM</td><td></td></tr>                                                    
<tr><td>9</td><td>34</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/8188465">C++ warning C4018: '&lt;' : signed/unsigned mismatch</a></td><td>Nov 18 2011  8:07PM</td><td></td></tr>                     
<tr><td>10</td><td>26</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/7058885">UIAlertView easy way to tell if cancel button is selected</a></td><td>Aug 14 2011  6:42PM</td><td></td></tr>               
<tr><td>65</td><td>92</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/6413615">How to get last 4 character from a string in c#?</a></td><td>Jun 20 2011  3:25PM</td><td></td></tr>                        
<tr><td>18</td><td>53</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/6345011">Checking whether the string contains only a number value</a></td><td>Jun 14 2011  2:20PM</td><td></td></tr>                
<tr><td>21</td><td>21</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/4093822">How to generate an array with random values, without using a loop?</a></td><td>Nov  4 2010  4:08AM</td><td></td></tr>      
<tr><td>185</td><td>209</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/1047491">What is lexical scope?</a></td><td>Jun 26 2009  5:26AM</td><td></td></tr>                                                
<tr><td>11</td><td>29</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/639196">Different ways of writing the "if" statement</a></td><td>Mar 12 2009  3:32PM</td><td></td></tr>                             
<tr><td>112</td><td>131</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/224626">How do you make div elements display inline?</a></td><td>Oct 22 2008  6:09AM</td><td></td></tr>                           
<tr><td>22</td><td>24</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/179626">How can I convert VB6 code to C#?</a></td><td>Oct  7 2008  5:54PM</td><td></td></tr>                                        
<tr><td>20</td><td>20</td><td><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/q/121002">Any other mainframers here?</a></td><td>Sep 23 2008  1:30PM</td><td></td></tr>                                              
</table> 

23 answers would be eligible to earn a badge with these criteria. Notice that none of those answers have currently earned a Reversal badge... So this does seem like a fairly meaningful change to the criteria.

That said, this looks like a really hard badge to earn. What if we change the question score requirements a bit?

  • -4/+4 would qualify 63 answers for badges (though one of them already qualified for a Reversal badge under the current rules before it got upvoted)
  • -3/+3 would qualify 176 answers, 3 of which previously qualified for Reversal
  • -2/+2 qualifies 455 answers, 7 with existing Reversal badges
  • -1/+1 qualifies 1633 answers, 10 with existing Reversal badges

If you're curious, the full results for -1/+1 can be found here: https://gist.github.com/Shog9/d8145de494c0a2d49ec5

22
  • 3
    I was thinking 23 answers seems kinda light for a badge (even a gold badge), but I was thinking of twiddling the answer score variable instead. It's already quite an accomplishment to get +20 on an answer even without considering the history of the question. Going from -1 to +1 isn't much of a reversal. Nov 24, 2014 at 20:13
  • 2
    Lowering the answer threshold makes this (already slow) query really slow in a hurry, @Jon - dropping it to 5 took over 11 seconds to run on SO. I also think it makes this badge less special - yes, a score of 20 is quite an accomplishment on its own, but salvaging a seemingly-doomed question with an answer that gets a score like that is really a step above. But the best reason not to bother tweaking the answer score? It doesn't matter: if we keep the question threshold at -5/+5, dropping the answer threshold to +5 only gives us 64 qualifying answers.
    – Shog9
    Nov 24, 2014 at 20:19
  • 2
    "-3/+3" rings a bell - it is at +3 when the magic of keeping rep for deleted posts happen, meaning like score has reached a threshold considered reliably useful
    – gnat
    Nov 24, 2014 at 20:24
  • 4
    -3 is also the threshold where 20K users can opt to immediately delete a closed post, @gnat. There's a certain symmetry there.
    – Shog9
    Nov 24, 2014 at 20:29
  • 2
    so, question progresses ("reverses") from a point where trusted users can immediately delete it, to the point where system considers it good enough to keep the rep even if it's eventually deleted. That sort of clicks doesn't it. And 176 answers to be awarded sounds about right, keeping (in)frequency of the badge about the same as now (190)
    – gnat
    Nov 24, 2014 at 20:35
  • I'm not sure instantly doubling the number of awarded badges is such a good idea, so I'd go with -4/+4 Still, at both 3 and 4 it has about the right amount of scarcity that an elite gold badge ought to.
    – Ben Voigt
    Nov 25, 2014 at 2:32
  • Also, 23 just became 22. Yay for Mjolnir! (The C4018 question)
    – Ben Voigt
    Nov 25, 2014 at 2:35
  • @BenVoigt there would be no doubling of number if "modified" badge additionally gets a new name (something like Treasure Hunter comes to mind) while old version respectfully retires with current name
    – gnat
    Nov 25, 2014 at 7:29
  • 1
    That's why I published the full dataset, @TravisJ - you don't have to trust me, just take a look... It's actually rather eye-opening.
    – Shog9
    Dec 13, 2014 at 0:44
  • 1
    Ah I see, I made the false assumption the link only contained questions which got at worst to -1.
    – Travis J
    Dec 13, 2014 at 0:48
  • 1
    Skeet would end up with 3 new badges at +-3, @gnat. Only 3 other people would earn more than 1 new badge: brian d foy, Rohit Jain and Brad Larson would each earn 2. Note that we don't normally revoke badges even when criteria change, so no one would have fewer reversals.
    – Shog9
    Dec 13, 2014 at 1:06
  • 1
    The Red Baron hat was inpired by this idea. I think -1/+1 is too easy to manipulate once there's an incentive to do so. Dec 16, 2014 at 18:20
  • 1
    meta.stackexchange.com/questions/279285/… it still encourages people to answer rubbish, I think it's best to avoid it and perhaps offer people a badge for a posts that undergo a reversal from -5 to a positive value generally
    – user3956566
    May 13, 2016 at 8:04
  • 2
    Shog any chance we can get a stamp either way on this as a feature request?
    – user3956566
    May 31, 2016 at 4:27
  • 1
    See update, @Yvette.
    – Shog9
    Aug 20, 2016 at 2:05
-14

What's the harm in trying? If someone can provide a good answer to a bad question, more power to them. If the question is so bad that it's merely taking up space and just reading the answers is a waste of time, then perhaps the question should be closed.

3
  • 11
    How often are people trying to provide good answers and not so much trying to game the badge?
    – BoltClock
    Nov 23, 2014 at 16:50
  • 11
    @BoltClock the whole site is a game ;) I don't know, but I got the badge "organically"... on a question that's since been deleted.
    – hobbs
    Nov 23, 2014 at 16:53
  • 10
    getting a badge for answering a delete-worthy question is certainly "organic"... in the sense that this perfectly matches the idea that Stack Overflow technology makes me write bad answers
    – gnat
    Nov 23, 2014 at 20:48

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