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Travis J
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I say this both ways because historically Stack Overflow has tried to walk a very fine line. We want to maintain high quality, and that means enforcing rules. Sometimes, that means that users have to hear unwanted truths; this can result in them calling out the messenger as rude or using "strong language". Users on both sides have quit: those on the side of not wanting to hear that the content they produce is off topic; as well as users feeling helpless and not wanting to see the degradation of quality on the site.

A very high rep user strongly considered leaving and took a hiatus as a result of this at one time. More than that, there has been a trend of high-reputation users answering fewer questions: 84% have been slowing their answering activity. As the site accumulates more and more questions, it becomes increasing important to moderate the questions being asked.

While it is important to be nice to your fellow users, it is also important that users understand they cannot simply post whatever they want to the site. We have rules, they need to be enforced. If users feel that their efforts of using the available tools are not enough, then they will begin using other means to express their frustration, such as comments. This primarily leads to the situation being described in this question.

A good moderator would consider both sides of this equation when choosing which action to take in order to both de-escalate as well as prevent future issues. This can mean simply taking action with regards to the singular users involved, however, I also believe that when there are issues with behavior at the site we as a community need to discuss them and figure out what ways if any we can remedy these situations (without pointing fingers at individual users, simply at the situations in general). Perhaps that means increased tooling for users to combat quality, and perhaps that means increased moderation tools for preventing actually abusive comments.

That said, this does happen often. I have a gold tag badge in Discussion here at Meta and have already encountered this situation before. Here is an example of reopening a question which was met poorly at first and answering it: Is "give me a collection of books" an on-topic question on SO?, or here On Stack Overflow, aren't we supposed to downvote an incorrect answer?, or really, I will do this any time I see the need to allow an on topic question to remain. Sometimes, I will also ask for the advice of a CM if the post is closed after I reopen it, such as here: Are we collectively wired to be 'rude'? where Shog ended up posting an answer (his more eloquent than mine would have been).

I also spend a lot of time trying to figure out ways through tooling or through discussion to improve content quality here at Stack Overflow.

Some of the posts you can see this in action would be:

Some of these posts resulted in real action, or coincided with improved tooling such as the dupehammer and the throttling ban for users asking questions. Some of these posts set the stage for important discussion for the site. Overall, these are just representative of some of the ways I have tried to work with the community here at meta to improve the site for the rest of us.

Often, users new to chat are rather unfamiliar with the slightly relaxed nature of chat here. It is important to look back at the creation of the feature and the general outlook by Jeff Atwood for what was intended with the "third place" of chat.

The third place is a term used in the concept of community building to refer to social surroundings separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace. -Ray Oldenburg

As such, new users can be a little zealous when first entering chat. Often through making demands or simply attempting to be in everyone's face (so to speak) in order to get their point across. This leads to tension in the room.

Room moderation is hard for Room Owners who have limited tooling.

First and foremost, the flagging needs to stop. If it is warranted, then a single flag for moderator (also available in chat) will do. There is no reason to spam chat flags, it is disruptive to every room at Stack Overflow.

Following that, the disruptive user needs to take a break from the room. They should be welcome to come back at a later time assuming that they are more willing to cooperate with other users in the future, but them being there was causing a significant amount of friction if a moderator needed to get involved.

Once the disruption is clear, the room should be able to return to its normal state of conduct.

  1. A user habitually flags old comments as being in violation of our Code of Conduct ("unfriendly or unkind" and/or "harassment, bigotry, or abuse"), which can lead to disciplinary action against the original commenter. In your judgment, the flagged comments are on the borderline of rude. What do you do?

This is similar to the first question, although slightly different. While the previous user was unwilling to change at first, this user only has their comments flagged.

It is very common for highly active members of the community to have their comments flagged if they are leaving them as a result of the review queue or as a result of indicating that content is problematic. These users should not be punished for simply generating flags if the flags are invalid.

Many times, users who have their posts actioned through closure, deletion, or downvote will start taking counter actions. This can lead to a steady stream of flags on comments by users attempting to use all of the user moderation tools available to them.

If there is an actual issue with the content of the comments then a private message should suffice at first. If comments persist, then stricter methods can begin to be used. If the comments are being flagged constantly, but are the result of a feature or community developed system of messaging, then that would be a good time to discuss with either the community managing the messaging or meta if any changes need to take place, and what those changes could look like.

I have had experience with this before, working with @rene and @TimPost on some of the recent auto generated comments the SOCVR uses. You can see that chat here: https://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/187598/2019/1/30

I would just talk to them about it in chat, or move on. This is a minor issue, and I already converse with many of the mods here at various times anyway. It is just important to be cordial. For the most part, I agree with them. Sometimes, it happens that they close or delete a post where it wasn't warranted, but often the community will notice as well and there will be a meta discussion for it.

I really haven't seen any actual instance of this happening aside from maybe one or two users who earned all of their reputation through solely asking questions. For the most part, if a high rep user is asking questions which are closed they are probably trying out a new technology. Asking questions where you are unaware of the proper terminology can be difficult, and can lead to situations where it seems that low quality is being created on purpose.

High rep users can be question banned though through creating too many low quality questions, it just requires that they not have a history of high quality ones.

I have also been on both sides of this. If the duplicate I chose (since my vote is already binding) does not properly answer the question then I will reopen the post. You can see an example of that here Rendering Image Blob Correctly along with some of my comments interacting with the question asker.

  1. A user habitually flags old comments as being in violation of our Code of Conduct ("unfriendly or unkind" and/or "harassment, bigotry, or abuse"), which can lead to disciplinary action against the original commenter. In your judgment, the flagged comments are on the borderline of rude. What do you do?

I would just talk to them about it in chat, or move on.

I say this both ways because historically Stack Overflow has tried to walk a very fine line. We want to maintain high quality, and that means enforcing rules. Sometimes, that means that users have to hear unwanted truths; this can result in them calling out the messenger as rude or using "strong language". Users on both sides have quit: those on the side of not wanting to hear that the content they produce is off topic; as well as users feeling helpless and not wanting to see the degradation of quality on the site.

A very high rep user strongly considered leaving and took a hiatus as a result of this at one time. More than that, there has been a trend of high-reputation users answering fewer questions: 84% have been slowing their answering activity. As the site accumulates more and more questions, it becomes increasing important to moderate the questions being asked.

While it is important to be nice to your fellow users, it is also important that users understand they cannot simply post whatever they want to the site. We have rules, they need to be enforced. If users feel that their efforts of using the available tools are not enough, then they will begin using other means to express their frustration, such as comments. This primarily leads to the situation being described in this question.

A good moderator would consider both sides of this equation when choosing which action to take in order to both de-escalate as well as prevent future issues. This can mean simply taking action with regards to the singular users involved, however, I also believe that when there are issues with behavior at the site we as a community need to discuss them and figure out what ways if any we can remedy these situations (without pointing fingers at individual users, simply at the situations in general). Perhaps that means increased tooling for users to combat quality, and perhaps that means increased moderation tools for preventing actually abusive comments.

That said, this does happen often. I have a gold tag badge in Discussion here at Meta and have already encountered this situation before. Here is an example of reopening a question which was met poorly at first and answering it: Is "give me a collection of books" an on-topic question on SO?, or here On Stack Overflow, aren't we supposed to downvote an incorrect answer?, or really, I will do this any time I see the need to allow an on topic question to remain. Sometimes, I will also ask for the advice of a CM if the post is closed after I reopen it, such as here: Are we collectively wired to be 'rude'? where Shog ended up posting an answer (his more eloquent than mine would have been).

I also spend a lot of time trying to figure out ways through tooling or through discussion to improve content quality here at Stack Overflow.

Some of the posts you can see this in action would be:

Some of these posts resulted in real action, or coincided with improved tooling such as the dupehammer and the throttling ban for users asking questions. Some of these posts set the stage for important discussion for the site. Overall, these are just representative of some of the ways I have tried to work with the community here at meta to improve the site for the rest of us.

Often, users new to chat are rather unfamiliar with the slightly relaxed nature of chat here. It is important to look back at the creation of the feature and the general outlook by Jeff Atwood for what was intended with the "third place" of chat.

The third place is a term used in the concept of community building to refer to social surroundings separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace. -Ray Oldenburg

As such, new users can be a little zealous when first entering chat. Often through making demands or simply attempting to be in everyone's face (so to speak) in order to get their point across. This leads to tension in the room.

Room moderation is hard for Room Owners who have limited tooling.

First and foremost, the flagging needs to stop. If it is warranted, then a single flag for moderator (also available in chat) will do. There is no reason to spam chat flags, it is disruptive to every room at Stack Overflow.

Following that, the disruptive user needs to take a break from the room. They should be welcome to come back at a later time assuming that they are more willing to cooperate with other users in the future, but them being there was causing a significant amount of friction if a moderator needed to get involved.

Once the disruption is clear, the room should be able to return to its normal state of conduct.

  1. A user habitually flags old comments as being in violation of our Code of Conduct ("unfriendly or unkind" and/or "harassment, bigotry, or abuse"), which can lead to disciplinary action against the original commenter. In your judgment, the flagged comments are on the borderline of rude. What do you do?

This is similar to the first question, although slightly different. While the previous user was unwilling to change at first, this user only has their comments flagged.

It is very common for highly active members of the community to have their comments flagged if they are leaving them as a result of the review queue or as a result of indicating that content is problematic. These users should not be punished for simply generating flags if the flags are invalid.

Many times, users who have their posts actioned through closure, deletion, or downvote will start taking counter actions. This can lead to a steady stream of flags on comments by users attempting to use all of the user moderation tools available to them.

If there is an actual issue with the content of the comments then a private message should suffice at first. If comments persist, then stricter methods can begin to be used. If the comments are being flagged constantly, but are the result of a feature or community developed system of messaging, then that would be a good time to discuss with either the community managing the messaging or meta if any changes need to take place, and what those changes could look like.

I have had experience with this before, working with @rene and @TimPost on some of the recent auto generated comments the SOCVR uses. You can see that chat here: https://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/187598/2019/1/30

I would just talk to them about it in chat, or move on. This is a minor issue, and I already converse with many of the mods here at various times anyway. It is just important to be cordial. For the most part, I agree with them. Sometimes, it happens that they close or delete a post where it wasn't warranted, but often the community will notice as well and there will be a meta discussion for it.

I really haven't seen any actual instance of this happening aside from maybe one or two users who earned all of their reputation through solely asking questions. For the most part, if a high rep user is asking questions which are closed they are probably trying out a new technology. Asking questions where you are unaware of the proper terminology can be difficult, and can lead to situations where it seems that low quality is being created on purpose.

High rep users can be question banned though through creating too many low quality questions, it just requires that they not have a history of high quality ones.

I have also been on both sides of this. If the duplicate I chose (since my vote is already binding) does not properly answer the question then I will reopen the post. You can see an example of that here Rendering Image Blob Correctly along with some of my comments interacting with the question asker.

minor expansion, deletion flags aren't the only ones
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Travis J
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With regards to this specific instance, it is certainly complicated, and depending on the situation may require deletion of the comments without validating the borderline flags of the material (while also not declining the flags). If it is borderline and rather old, perhaps in violation of an updated policy, it would be a little unfair to suspend a user as a result of that. If the comments are borderline rude, in the rude direction, they should definitely be deleted; that doesn't *always *meanalways mean there should be additional consequence for the user though.

I am also fine with just going through and handling deletion/spam/vandalism/fraud flags. I am generally active on the site every day, although often Sundays I miss. For example, I was away on a conference last week and still managed to use the site every day.

With regards to this specific instance, it is certainly complicated, and depending on the situation may require deletion of the comments without validating the borderline flags of the material (while also not declining the flags). If it is borderline and rather old, perhaps in violation of an updated policy, it would be a little unfair to suspend a user as a result of that. If the comments are borderline rude, in the rude direction, they should definitely be deleted; that doesn't *always *mean there should be additional consequence for the user though.

I am also fine with just going through and handling deletion flags. I am generally active on the site every day, although often Sundays I miss. For example, I was away on a conference last week and still managed to use the site every day.

With regards to this specific instance, it is certainly complicated, and depending on the situation may require deletion of the comments without validating the borderline flags of the material (while also not declining the flags). If it is borderline and rather old, perhaps in violation of an updated policy, it would be a little unfair to suspend a user as a result of that. If the comments are borderline rude, in the rude direction, they should definitely be deleted; that doesn't always mean there should be additional consequence for the user though.

I am also fine with just going through and handling deletion/spam/vandalism/fraud flags. I am generally active on the site every day, although often Sundays I miss. For example, I was away on a conference last week and still managed to use the site every day.

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Travis J
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Travis J
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