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Recently when posting questions of my own, or viewing others' questions, I see that the comments are all "Improve your question by posting a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example." or "That's nice. How about a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example?" and sometimes even "I won't try to help you until you post a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example" (which in my mind is breaking the Be nice policy, as the tone is sarcastic or imperious).

The biggest thing that stands out to me is that all these comments have the same message: "Read this page and make your question better." I know for myself that sometimes (even after reading about MCVE for the millionth time) I cannot make a question "more understandable". I want more than anything to help you help me, but when I don't know how else to do so, this repetitive prompting to improve my question helps neither me nor the author of the comment in any way whatsoever. Even worse, as mentioned by BoltClock, is when users demand improvement where it is not needed.

I believe that users should request specific material considering the current circumstance after asking the OP to improve the question, rather than continually sending the same hyperlink - which would serve no further good. In other words, we tell the OP to improve once (per question), and if the user is not sure how, we say exactly what to include in the question. Is this reasonable or do I just fail to understand how to post a "Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example"?

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    The best (/s) part is when users ask for an MCVE when the situation doesn't even call for one.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 3:52
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    I'd dispense with the use of the word "harassment" here. A mere nuisance is not "harassment". The especially snobby comments might be, but seeing the MCVE link again and again and again is not.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 3:57
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    Oh, you have no idea how tempted I was to do just that ;)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 3:59
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    By the way, here's a recent question that would make a great poster child for this post. It ticks all the boxes: 1) unnecessary MCVE comment from someone who can't even visualize a single line of code 2) snobby "this is not a do-my-job-for-me site" comment 3) same user who left the snobby comment eggs asker on when all they're doing is explaining that their question is trivial enough to not require an MCVE (which, ironically, is a perfect example of harassment).
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 4:29
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    There are all sorts of other criticisms of that question that one could make that would be far more valid than "lacks MCVE". Lack of research effort for starters - I can't imagine this being the first time anyone has asked that question. But, no, everyone just stops dead in their tracks because they were looking for a code snippet but couldn't find one.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 4:33
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    @BoltClock you hit the nail on the head (again)! This is not constructive criticism, it's all just a lazy way to tell people to improve using the first hyperlink you have. Can we maybe get a comment downvote button? Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 4:36
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    Related: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/338846/4639281
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 4:37
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    Upvoting not for agreement, but because this is a relevant question that deserves exposure.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 4:39
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    Wait. I really need to say: Improve your question by posting a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example. to go with my down vote. If that wording is not nice by your standards, then what I should I use instead? Please improve your question by posting a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example.? Or Would you be so kind to improve your question by posting a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example. Or By the time I got your example code working I might as well ask you to improve your question by posting a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example.
    – rene
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 9:05
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    In many cases, the root cause of an inappropriate 'MCVE' closure is that only runnable code would allow the OP's issue to be resolved. That's a 'Be nice' way of saying 'You've demonstrated no results from your own testing/debugging and we can't work out what is going on without reproducing your problem locally'. Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 9:05
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    'we tell them exactly what to include in their question. Is this reasonable' - no. It's a 'push' question that could be rephrased: 'after applying effort to read and understand a question that turns out to be lacking, is it reasonable that the already-grossly-overloaded skilled/experienced volunteer developers on SO spend even more time explaining badness in detail instead of just posting a link and using the time so saved to help with good questions?'. Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 9:43
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    I've edited the title because I don't think that it matched what you're actually asking. Should be asking people to improve? Uh, yes, I don't see how that's even a question. But the specific way that you highlight in the body may indeed be done poorly or even be problematic. The title now coincides more closely with those specifics.
    – jscs
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 14:35
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    Often, I just wish that the OP would read and acknowledge any of our comments made that request improvements to the question. Most often unclear and information-lacking questions are made by new posters to this site, and too often they post what I call "drive-by" questions, where they post the question and then abandon it for a few days, not realizing that the first 10 to 30 minutes of a question's life are the most critical. Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 21:03
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    @rene: How about teasing out the actual parts of the question which aren't clear? Instead of asking for an MCVE when one is warranted, ask the more armor-piercing ones, such as, "Show us the code you've already written to address this, and some inputs. It'd be helpful to see what error messages you've gotten as well." Yes, this is effectively the same as saying, "I want to see an MCVE", but it phrased in a way that the OP can take immediate action on, as opposed to looking up what an MCVE is.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 25, 2017 at 6:46
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    So.....why is this question downvoted so much? Just curious...
    – Brandon_J
    Commented Apr 6, 2019 at 0:52

2 Answers 2

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Well...no, we should not stop sending the message of, "Please improve" to OPs, but this is an issue that has struck a nerve with me as of late.

I allude to as much in a previous question about MCVEs in general, but I'll quote myself for brevity:

We pontificate so much about having executable examples that it's almost a scapegoat anymore to demand an MCVE from an otherwise perfectly answerable question. I've noticed it as a trend more and more to demand that the OP do even more work to ask their question when, in reality, it doesn't really need that; the code they present is understandable by anyone who is versed in the language, or complete enough that an answer can be cobbled together and be serviceable for what the OP is asking.

The main thing here is that we're on autopilot with this phrase now. You'll see this expression even if your question doesn't need an MCVE. Worse, there's not really much we can do about it; the moderators won't treat two or three "where's the MCVE" comments as noisy/unnecessary (since they don't see all three when one is flagged).

Realistically the only thing we can do is cut the noise out as best we can when engaging with the OP. As one who wishes to answer but still has ambiguity around the question, seek to ask for enlightenment into the problem in specific, and pointed (often armor-piercing) ways. Don't slip into the temptation to demand something that isn't necessary, but don't be surprised that an example may become necessary as more gets teased out from the OP.

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    Hear hear. Couldn't have said it better myself.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 4:35
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    You know, I haven't looked at the comment flag queue in forever. I should probably put myself through it again. I can absolutely see myself coming across MCVE comments I'd delete in a heartbeat. (See also my hindsight comment above.)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 4:48
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    I've added an answer which partly addresses why I will ask for a MCVE even when the code is "complete enough that an answer can be cobbled together". Would be interested in your thoughts on that.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 11:06
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I agree that there are times where a MCVE doesn't make sense. However, there are plenty of cases which could be argued to be borderline but where a MCVE has many benefits. This is particularly case for the "I've provided some code - anyone with enough experience to answer can fill in the rest."

Providing a MCVE has the following benefits:

  • It makes it easier for someone in a similar situation to see if they're actually in the same situation, as they can often adapt the existing MCVE to look more like their code.
  • It means that only a single person (the questioner) needs to do the work to put together the MCVE, rather than each person who might be trying to answer. (If you want to provide an answer, but don't know whether it'll help, you'll want to test it first - which means there has to be a complete example somewhere, whether that's on your computer or in SO. It's better if it's on SO.)
  • It means the problem really will be reproducible. Often I've put time into taking the OP's partial code and trying to reproduce the problem, only to find that the problem was actually in a different bit of code which wasn't provided. If the OP had provided the MCVE, that wouldn't have happened.
  • Most importantly, it means going through the diagnostic process to come up with the MCVE in the first place... and that often resolves the problem in the first place.

As an example of the last case, I was recently involved in a question which was supposedly about XML parsing and CSV production. There was a non-minimal but still incomplete example, which the OP repeatedly claimed was an MCVE. The problem was actually in a single line, parsing a string to a double. If the OP had taken the time to try to come up with a genuinely minimal example, they'd have noticed that the problem was nothing to do with XML parsing or CSV production, and would have focused on that single call. No part of that analysis was difficult, but it would have been a bit time-consuming. I view that as part of what a questioner should do before asking a question - diagnostics is part of research, effectively.

I firmly believe that the diagnostic process is undervalued/undertaught - and in strongly encouraging users to provide MCVEs, we're helping to improve that diagnostic skill. As with so much on SO, it's looking for long-term gain rather than just "what's the minimal amount of time/effort required to solve this immediate problem for this one user."

None of this excuses times when code really isn't useful - but I suspect I see benefits of MCVEs in places where other users might deem this to be just being mean or nagging. Hopefully this answer gives a fuller explanation of my motivation.

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    I’m sorry, I’m just not comfortable taking advice from a guy who doesn’t even have a million rep yet. :/
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 14:09
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    In borderline or 50-50 cases - similar to the example you're illustrating - I feel like an MCVE would be valuable since it's a critical part of describing or illustrating the actual problem. Now when we talk about a specific call or specific aspect of the code isolated to an MCVE, that makes me feel a bit strange; I don't deny or dispute the value of reducing the code base to as little as necessary to help reproduce the problem at all, but my opinion is that the example from the OP should be complete enough to work with, but not overly verbose or fluffed out.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 17:05
  • You make very good points here. My main concern is just how "minimal" an MCVE really needs to be, which is what I allude to in my other answer. Again, I do not deny or dispute its validity in problem solving or problem isolation, but I genuinely feel there is a fine balance to strike with OPs in this scenario; if they provide enough information to help us solve their problem in such a way that it's not a novella, and is simple enough to reproduce, then that's reasonable enough.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 17:07
  • The page on how to create an MCVE is not very helpful to me. It is a little vague and difficult to understand. It doesn't help when users demand an improvement, because I have no idea whether or not they are be reasonable with their request. I think it should be taught a little better and with examples. Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 22:06
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    @Cardinal: I certainly wouldn't object to a refresh of that page. I'd be happy to try it myself, but chances are it would be longer than most users would want...
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Dec 24, 2017 at 22:12
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    @CardinalSystem The problem is how to explain how to create an MCVE for every languages and working system that exist ? C got a lot of different case where create an MCVE will totally differ depend on what you use. MCVE for an php too require a lot of specific information and is not context free either. Made a generic tutorial to create a MCVE is almost impossible. Maybe we should have one MCVE link by language/tag ? I use this link idownvotedbecau.se/nomcve. I found it more clear than SO page.
    – Stargateur
    Commented Dec 30, 2017 at 2:20

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