-5

I recently got two sets of three flagged (by me) comments declined. The comments were clearly insulting.

The first three were to this question where I initially pointed the asker to site-rules and that the questions is off-topic (which apparently I wasn't the only). Instead of at least some lame excuse, OP went rude. I tried to stay friendly, but got another two insults. I flagged all three. After quite some time, instead of just deleting the insults (and possibly context) posts, all comments were deleted. My flags were all declined.

Same for this answer where I only posted a link to a meta post about answering bad questions, no further text. Again, I got some pretty insulting comments, not even by the post owner, but a third user who insisted the question is OT and I should not attack answerers that way (by posting a relevant meta!). I tried to argue reasonable, even others did, but just got more offence. So one more try: flagging. Same result: Flags sticked some time, then all comments were deleted, flags declined.

In the meantime, both question were closed for the reasons I already assumed. 5 regular votes, no hammers.

So, ok, maybe I should not have tried to reason after the first insult. For the second user being a high rep >30k one I thought I had hope, though. But even if I shouldn't, I don't see how that justifies further attacks.

Nevertheless, I would have accepted my flags disputed (which does not have a negative effect AFAIK). I'm also fine with all comments deleted. This would have signaled me "you should have retracted after the first insult".

But getting well justified flags declined clearly states: "it is fine you got insulted. Just don't care about the site, don't inform people about their wrong-doing". Fine, if that's intended, I got it, mods. Us users shall not try to help keep this site as fine as it used to be (and should be). Don't point people at the rules.

But maybe this is just another one of "shi(f)t happens" - the second in a week for me. Well ....


I understand this post is a bit problematic, as I can't show the comments as proof. Nevertheless I try my luck, I haven't given up completely yet.


Important information

If too many flags are declined in some period, a flag-ban strikes for an undisclosed duration. I had that recently where my flag was errorneously declined while I was (apparently) at the edge of a ban. Acceptable for a single flag, but for three on a row or even six in short succession? To be clear: I accept a ban if there is a good reason; Err'ing is human and I do learn from my errors. But I don't want to get punished for others missbehaviour or errors.


Further readings

The answer to the last questions implies there is a way to send a custom message to the flagger, which would have at least shed some light about the reason. Maybe there is need for some mod-training?


Update

The first set of comments are available now. This is the older event. Note that I only posted this meta after the second one. The reason is I was about to accept the declined flags and move on.

However, the second one is more clear and not covered by mod resonses until now. Seeing the same procedure there triggered this post. I'm curious if we ever get to see those comments.

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  • 1
    It would be good if a mod could post in screenshots of the comments in question.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 3:38
  • @YvetteColomb: That would require the whole thread, not just particular posts. But yes, I'm fine with that. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 3:49
  • 13
    I know it's "homework season", and that means we're getting a lot of low-effort questions. I'd just like to point out that most of them don't require a comment. If you think the question doesn't meet our standards and the asker didn't read the help, then just downvote and/or vote to close. You don't need to repeat things in the Help Center. They'll show up automatically once the question gets closed. That saves you time, and it saves moderators time. Nobody likes to be told that their question sucks, so these types of comments almost always descend into bickering that we have to clean up.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 10:58
  • 6
    @Olaf Now that the comments can be read here: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/356997/4386427 it seems to me the comments from NikkiNelson are some what rude. They are not extremely rude but - yes a little rude. Based on that I'm not sure whether your flags should have been declined or accepted. But I'm kind of surprised that you don't think of your own comment as being rude. Telling someone that they "know nothing about what they are doing" is rude - regardless of whether it's true or false. So to me all the 4 comments are just inappropriate for the site
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 11:27
  • 2
    @CodyGray From the linked question "comment and explain why their question is bad and how to fix it, use the tour, the help, maybe even a chat session" that's quite a popular answer and nobody had a problem with that point. Did things change and "most of them don't require a comment" is the consensus and/or official stance now or just your personal opinion?
    – Oleg
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 13:44
  • You only need to comment if you have something to add to the close reason that you're selecting, like more specific contextual advice. This hasn't changed. @Oleg
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 13:45
  • @CodyGray: Hinting someone that there is more than a singular issue with a particular question, but there is apparently some major lack of knowledge is certainly additional information not given by the close-reason for that particular question. Pointing out how this knowledge can be gained (by a book) is clearly added value and not rude. An adult can be expected to know the basics, IIRC, there is even something about "able/having the prerequisites) to understand the problem". It is not about homework per-se (not even sure that was HW), but help-vampires who off-load their tasks. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 13:51
  • @CodyGray As I wrote, I'd been fine if the comments were all deleted and disputed. The point is them being declined. Said that, all commenter concentrate on this thing, but ignore the second post completely. How can a link to meta which is clearly related be rude and justify such attacks? Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 13:54
  • @4386427 Please see ^ Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 13:54
  • 4
    @olaf - I read your two comments above. They exactly underline my point. you write "... some major lack of knowledge.... Pointing out how this knowledge can be gained (by a book) is clearly added value and not rude." That's it. You don't find it rude but rather sees it as a "added value". Maybe some cultural difference but that attitude wouldn't give you much friends where I'm from. Here it would be considered as unacceptable behaviour. I dislike that kind of comment but I won't flag them because they are just a little rude - not extreme. Still I think it would be better if they won't posted
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 15:23
  • @4386427 You'd have a hard time in most parts of Germany then. Personally I appreciate open words. That'Äs how I grew up and most of the people I know do the same. To be clear about this (if you ever5 come here;): it clearly is not meant rude, but well-meant. Just straight to the point. Save a lot of time. I in fact got some feedback about "our bluntness" from people not used to it. After some acclimatisation (including feeling lost at some point) most got used to it, found it even refreshing and used it themselves (those who stayed here longer). Aviods a lot of fraction. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 15:39
  • @4386427 You're welcome to see yourself. interestingly, Germany is one of the most peaceful and most wealthy countries in the world (well, since 72 years;-). Certain countries with massive "political correctness" policies can't claim than. Shouldn't that make one think? Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 15:42
  • 2
    @olaf Well, german... Actually I have worked with Germans both on technical and business issues and noticed that in general they are more direct than I'm used to. Good or bad? I have seen both. Anyway - you asked a question and I gave you my view (I guess that was what you were looking for). Now it's up to you. You can read my comments and think "well, he's far out and all wrong" or you think "Maybe he says something interesting, maybe I should rephrase my comments". The call is yours. I just gave you my view - you decide if it's worth anything to you. I don't think there is more to add.
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 16:05
  • @4386427: Well, one aspect of being direct and expecting the same (which is just fair) is I do think about the feedback, if it is well reasoned. You indeed have some points about the event we discussed. I'm still waiting for a proper answer about the other. At least I got some comment from the other mod and n image of the second set of comments. I still think an seperate answer would be fine, but well, it is not at my discretion and as I learned from all this, I better not expect something. Thanks for your feedback. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 16:38
  • @Olaf You can stand to be nice(r) when interacting with users... (and yes, I need to follow it too.)
    – cs95
    Commented Sep 25, 2017 at 2:49

3 Answers 3

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Without seeing the comments it's hard to judge. Hopefully the mod who declined them will also answer.

The issue may be that you haven't used the best flag. Possibly the no longer needed flag would have been a wiser choice.

enter image description here

I'm cautious when raising rude flags on comments. They need to be openly rude, not just abrasive or in conflict with another user.

What are the “spam” and “rude or abusive” (offensive) flags, and how do they work?

Yes it's annoying that people chime in with unwarranted comments, just as they've perceived you've done. So the solution is in the problem.

  1. A person perceives your comment as unwarranted and decides to comment.

  2. You perceive that person's comment as unwarranted and decide to comment.

  3. Repeat from point 1.

The solution:

Do not reply if you think a comment is unwarranted. If you believe it shouldn't be on the site, flag it, but be mindful of which flag to choose. If someone has the mentality of wanting to make a conflicting type of comment, then they're likely to be spoiling for a fight, so there's no point to engage them.

Making comments about what you see as not right on the site doesn't assist in removing it, flags do.

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    The comments were clearly insulting and I don't see why I get into trouble for being rude, those folks get away and I even get beaten up for flagging. I even did not used such phrases like the ones I flagged.when my comments were deleted as rude. The solution is to just don comment at all, just vote, let the rep-wh…ales take over. All will get some 10000000reps soon and happy congrat themselves how clever they are. And in few years all are crying how low the quality at SO is. Rinse and repeat. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 4:00
  • 1
    After some sleep: "Possibly the no longer needed flag would have been a wiser choice." - I can fully agree with that. But I never claimed to be wise, just expect fairness. The first bunch of comment is now available; I'm still waiting for the second and the reason why posting a meta-link is rude) Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 14:22
  • 1
    @Olaf it's ok - you were having a moment. I'm having one now, so am going offline. See you tomorrow.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 14:23
  • Well, I accepted, although I don't agree fully. Imho this sets the wrong signal. Nevertheless I seem to have to accept that's as good as it gets. Thanks for your feedback. Very appreciated (as always). Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 14:26
  • @Olaf wise words. It's acceptance of what we can't change and it's hard to sometimes know what that is.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 14:28
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Below is the comment thread.

Deleted Comments


Unfortunately, my overlay doesn't show exactly which three were flagged and declined, so I'm going to guess. I'm guessing it was NikkiNelson's first, second and third comments.

When I see multiple rude/abusive flags on the same post, I read through the entire post instead of cherry-picking and deleting from the mod queue. I remember this particular thread because I found it odd the first comment hadn't been flagged too. Now I understand that it's because it was written by you.

I declined these because none of them jump out as rude. There are unneeded, which is why they were deleted, but rude? No. They talk about who's voting (and how), who's participating in the post, some bickering about rules and a threat to leave SO due to the poor interactions a user had in this post.

The entire comment section was removed because there was an answer, it was acknowledged by the asker and it addressed the issues mentioned in the comments.


My suggestion, if you are flagging these types of comments in the future, is to mark these as no longer needed.

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  • That's only one thread of two. How about the other? Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 14:01
  • I already commented above why I don't see pointing someone at fact as rude. Actually the "we are not a debugging service, …" part is use quite frequently by various users and I don't see them getting deleted. They are also fine, expecially when it comes to velp-vampires and their best friends, rep-…That particular user has been pointed at How to Ask, etc in former posts already, so I did not see a reason. Instead I tried to make clear there is an underlying problem (and as a tutor myself, I should see that) and provided information how to solve this (books seem to be so old-school). Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 14:09
  • The posts from that user instead were rude. Accusing someone to spam and to "go away" is indeed rude. It is not a a user's discretion to tell others not to provide information within rules of the site. Which I was certain about. Even if not, it would not have been her business, but to flag my comment instead (which seems not to have occurred). Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 14:13
  • I don't see the fact a question got answered&accepted makes a question on-topic. Actually, it was closed after the answer was posted. As I wrote, I was fine about all comments deleted, my point is the flags being declined, not disputed. On a sidenote: if something like "go spam elsewhere" is fine, I don't see "read a C book" is not. Nevertheless, I'll keep that in mind. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 14:18
  • @Olaf I haven't got much to say on the direct topic of this post but I'd like to mention something, I actually recommend that new coders have a personal project along with their basic book for C (or any other language) because that way they have a real world application for what they're reading and I think it makes it less likely they'll give up (though I also recommend they read the book when they have issues and not come here). It gives teachers the opportunity to say things like "you'll use X feature for Y" in a way that they can apply to what they are really interested in.
    – jrh
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 15:49
  • @jrh: That's exactly my point. I learned programming, C, etc. myself all by doing. I even can't learn something without a useful target in sight. And that's what I taught my students, too. Problem is most people these days seem to prefer obscure youtube videos or blog posts over reading a good textbook. For C specifically, I hade clear from the beginning, there is a standard which sets the guidelines. In fact, this is even most helpful for learning, because there is no "hearsay" or "typical behaviour", but well defined. Thanks for your feedback; nevermind it was not directly related. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 16:01
  • 18
    @Olaf - I declined the flags on the other answer, because this is becoming a pattern with you. You instigate a fight with someone by being abrasive and condescending, then flag all of the comments by those responding to your original comments. In this case, you were lecturing someone on why they shouldn't answer, telling them that their answer was "insulting" and then flagging any attempt they made at responding to your arguments. It's like walking into a bar, insulting someone, then calling in the bouncers when that person gets in your face. None of the comments should have been made.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 16:04
  • 2
    Since you've asked to see the comments, @Olaf, here is a screenshot. Brad has already explained his rationale for deleting them.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 16:23
  • @BradLarson: I'd appreciate if the comments were posted in an answer of your's like Andy did. Until then I don't see much use in arguing, as community can't make their own picture. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 16:29
  • 1
    @CodyGray: Thatnks, but I think a seperate answer would be better so those issues can be seperated and treated by the community. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 16:33
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From looking at the comments posted by @Andy things didn't go exactly as you remembered them. Telling him that:

We are neither a consulting nor a coding nor a debugging service.

Is not quite the same as pointing him to the site rules and the rest of your comment telling him that there is an urgent need for a C book is somewhat rude and insulting.

I looked hard at NikkiNelson's comments and couldn't find anything "clearly insulting" the strongest thing he said was:

go spam another post

Somewhat rude but far from an insult, inline with your first comment.

So personally I don't see the problem with the comments themselves, you see it differently and that's fine however I do have a problem with SO's conflicting rules and lack of transparency.

According to https://stackoverflow.com/help/be-nice which is the page linked to from "rude or abusive" comments

Your tone should match the way you'd talk in person with someone you respect and whom you want to respect you

Your first comment and the comments that you flagged are "rude or abusive".

According to https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/58035

The rude or abusive flag (formerly known as offensive) is meant to be used only in extreme cases, like hate speech, abuse against people, or abuse of the community or system.

They are not "rude or abusive" but the top of that post says that the rules are different on SO and links to Let's get aligned on how spam flags can be used which talks mostly about spam and I don't even know what to make from it.

According to https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/356997/1398418 if comments don't jump out as rude to @Andy they are not "rude or abusive".

All this is confusing and even someone who tries very hard to do everything "by the book" can easily get it wrong for which you are punished by a "flag ban" and not only that SO for some reason(some crappy reason that I don't remember but I remember it not making sense) hides your "flag ban"(and other bans) status. This is frustrating and infuriating and I understand why you're riled up about it, my solution is not to take this site seriously, every day can be the day I had to much and then I will just leave.

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    Be careful about mixing up the rude/abusive flag on posts with the one for comments.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 11:00
  • 1
    @CodyGray Which proves my point, this is confusing! I tried to gather only relevant information and apparently I failed.
    – Oleg
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 11:02
  • "I'm not here for debugging" is something I would and did state to someone in person and I know enough people who would do the same. I would not say "this rubbish" or similar, but that's fine. I also pointed her at the underlying problem which is also completely normal. Furthermore, I provided a way to change this. None of this was either meant to be rude, nor is it in my cultural surrounding. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 13:59
  • And let this post apart (where I had been fine with all deleted and disputed), there is a second post, which is completely ignored apparently. Interesting. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 14:00
  • @Olaf You missed the "someone you respect and whom you want to respect you" part. I don't have a problem with your comment and I myself respond similarly in some situations but claiming that it's not somewhat rude is ... (can't think of a good word that won't be rude naive? silly? ridiculous? pick which ever you like). The second post is ignored because we haven't seen it, after seeing how you "misremembered" the first one there is nothing I can say based on your account of it.
    – Oleg
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 14:52
  • @Oleg: I did not mention it, but I didn't miss it. Being clear and honest is something I was taught from the beginning and which I appreciate as much as the people I respect. In fact it is hard for us to respect someone who does not want to hear the truth. But, hey we have polls her today and the best liar wins. So people like myself well might be a minority. Enven small with Generation Snowflake taking over. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 14:56
  • @Olaf Clear and honest is great, perhaps the correct word is blunt and not rude(the difference is very nuanced). Instead of saying "I'm not here for debugging" you could've said something like "This site has a specific goal and we only answer on topic questions, unfortunately your question requires help with debugging, this is off topic, I'm a volunteer and this is not something I'm interested in doing." Now I personally appreciate bluntness and despise political correctness and artificial "niceness" but I do recognize the former is rude or very close to it and the later is polite("nice").
    – Oleg
    Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 15:17
  • @Oleg: Yes, and I could have provided a whole novel what I was there for and what not. But I also wrote "clear language", which means if there is a word for it, don't write a short story. The latter might be necessary if otherwise the receiver had to look up in a dictionary ("what does 'oxymoron' even mean?"), but this was very clear. Yes, maybe blunt would fit, but I avoid it intentionally exactly because if it's borderline semantics which very much depend on the reader (Europeans tend to not se it as problematic with some variations in region/age/etc, US people typically do). Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 15:25
  • Well, as you might have noticed, I did not post this meta until the second even. That's because I would have accepted the first serial-decline. But the second is more clear and it was the final trigger for me to ask for clarification. Unfortunately, we don't see those comments and I start wondering why. So, to settle this, I accept my flags being declined for the first event (I already wrote multiple times I was fine about the full deletion). Now wating for the second bunch. Maybe there is a reason we don't get them to see. Commented Sep 24, 2017 at 15:33

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