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Joel's post, "https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/342440/time-to-take-a-stand", brings up a topic, which, in my mind, is a legitimate issue. However, throughout the affiliated chat, it has been raised that the question does not adhere to SE's "Be Nice" policy.

Is the current standing of "Time to take a stand" adhering to the "Be Nice" policy? If so, why or why not, and what changes should be implemented, if any, to right the issue?

Note that the issue brought in "Time to take a stand" is in no way related to this question: this question refers to the words chosen, NOT the content.

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  • area51 plug -- I am working on starting a Stack on this exact question of Being Nice during charged dialog on politics. I would super appreciate support if you are enthusiastic about this topic! It IS possible. area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/106355/…
    – djechlin
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 8:26
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    I think the question itself adheres to Be Nice but is still Off Topic. However, the discussion, particularly Kasra's answer and comment do not adhere to Be Nice. Being in a sympathetic position shouldn't be an excuse to attack others for having different opinions, or disagreeing about how those opinions should be expressed.
    – mason
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 18:11
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    Please, enough of discussion of this post! It doesn't matter whether it does adhere to this policy or not, it's off-topic, so we should @VoteToClose and move on.
    – ForceBru
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 21:27
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    @ForceBru This was posted after many users had attempted to close it and it had been repeatedly been opened. As it was clear that the post would not be closed, I decided that verifying that it adhered to this policy, at least, should be a priority as to allow for discussion. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 21:53
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    It is On-hold and locked now
    – Dijkgraaf
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 22:14

9 Answers 9

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The policy, line by line

Let's go over the policy. (Yes, again.)

  1. Rudeness and belittling language are not okay. Your tone should match the way you'd talk in person with someone you respect and whom you want to respect you. If you don't have time to say something politely, just leave it for someone who does.

Let's focus in on applying this to two passages.

First: "It is immoral, unconstitutional, and fundamentally un-American." If you said this to someone you respect, especially without prior explanation, you've lost your temper over some disagreement. It is impossible to call an action immoral without implying that those who support it hold an immoral view. You certainly wouldn't say this if you wanted a dissenting listener to respect you and listen to what you have to say. (Note that stating your belief about the constitutionality of an act is well within the boundaries of the Be Nice policy; it's fine.)

Second: "both morally repugnant and frankly stupid." Again, you can't call something immoral without implying something about the people behind the act or belief. "Repugnant" makes this even more emotionally charged. And again, you wouldn't say this to someone you respect unless you've lost your temper. And again, it certainly doesn't cause the listener who disagrees to respect you.

This sort of language is also dismissive, which is a form of belittling. It doesn't say it outright, but by choosing disrespectful language, it implies that the opposing view is so completely invalid that it doesn't even need consideration. It is inconsiderate toward those who hold it. The sad part is that with the entire post sandwiched between these two passages, much of the effectiveness of the more polite content in the middle is lost, particularly on people who didn't agree with its conclusions going into the post. Setting up a respectful atmosphere would have made the opinion in this post more clear and more poignant, even if you ultimately disagree with its position.

  1. Be welcoming, be patient, and assume good intentions. Don't expect new users to know all the rules — they don't. And be patient while they learn. If you're here for help, make it as easy as possible for others to help you. Everyone here is volunteering, and no one responds well to demands for help.

Welcoming: Absolutely not. This makes anyone who doesn't explicitly support the view feel unwelcome. What is the most likely outcome of this kind of vitriol? Antagonizing and alienating those who hold a different view, the opposite of being welcoming.

Patient: I don't see how jumping straight to "immoral," "un-American", and "stupid" is patient in the slightest. It certainly doesn't indicate any thoughtful consideration of the opposing view.

Assume good intentions: There is no acknowledgement of good intentions, and I see no indication that Joel thinks good intentions motivated the order. A typical result of doing so is that you find less inflammatory words; it's hard to imagine more inflammatory text that doesn't include curse words. If you really believe that something is not motivated by good intentions, then I think this part of the policy at least demands some reasoned defense of that position.

"be patient while they learn": This originally refers to learning the rules, but I think we can extend the spirit a bit here since the post already stretches (or crosses) what belongs on Meta.SO. There is no patience shown while dissenters digest the view Joel presents, forget for those who enacted the policy to consider a response.

The rest of that section isn't really applicable.

Name-calling. Focus on the post, not the person. That includes terms that feel personal even when they're applied to posts (like "lazy", "ignorant", or "whiny").

"Immoral," "un-American," and "stupid" fit well into the category of words that "feel personal when applied." In this case, they apply to a political action, and they feel like a personal slight against the beliefs behind that action.

Bigotry of any kind. Language likely to offend or alienate individuals or groups based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. will not be tolerated. At all. (Those are just a few examples; when in doubt, just don't.)

I think "political affiliation" or "political opinion" fall squarely into the "etc." there. This is very likely to alienate individuals whose political views differ from Joel's. He could have made all his points without inflammatory language, but he chose not to.

Inappropriate language or attention. Avoid vulgar terms and anything sexually suggestive. Also, this is not a dating site.

Okay, Joel did great on this item. I'd like to thank him for not including any vulgar language. That is appreciated.

Harassment and bullying. If you see a hostile interaction, flag it. If it keeps up, disengage — we'll handle it. If something needs staff attention, you can use the contact us link at the bottom of every page.

Yes, this post is hostile. It's explicitly hostile toward a political action, and it's implicitly hostile toward those who disagree with the political opinion expressed.

"Stupid" was removed

Yes, it was. I've chosen to address it because removing it does not significantly change the tone of the post. Note that every mention of the word in the line-by-line above is accompanied by other examples still in the text. Additionally, it was there for over a day and took about an hour of direct discussion with a staff member to get that removed. Moderators actively refused to even request if Joel would remove or allow the removal of inflammatory text (with the intent to leave any non-inflammatory text alone and preserve the intent of the post) and rolled back very modest attempts to make improvements ourselves. (Even adding the phrase, "I think," was rolled back.)

Standing on Morality

I will say that there may be a respectful way to express that you believe an action is immoral. As I said, you can't call an action "immoral" without implying something about the beliefs that led to it, and as a consequence the people who hold such beliefs. It is fraught with the danger of upsetting your opposition and devolving the conversation into an emotional tirade, so it is difficult to do without violating the policy. It is a line that must be crossed very carefully, and when in doubt about your ability to make it as respectful as possible, it's better not to cross it at all.

So if you feel you must say it, you need to take enormous care to minimize the likelihood that it will be perceived as an attack. Phrase it to make it explicitly about what you think, rather than focusing it squarely on the action or people. Precede the claim with explanation of why you feel so strongly about the issue. Possibly even give enough context that the reader understands how you came to that conclusion within your moral framework.

But certainly don't open with it, repeat it a few short sentences later, mix it with additional emotionally charged antagonistic phrases, and leave your reader with a sour taste in their mouth from how prominent it is.

Conclusion

Joel's post takes a strong stance in the style of, "My opinion is absolutely right. There is no validity to an opposing view, and no need to respect or reach out to those who hold it." That is exactly the kind of inflexibility that SO's Be Nice and political discourse policies are designed to forbid, because that attitude drives people away instead of allowing for educating and learning and mutual understanding. It is not kind. It tells people that they will not be listened to if they disagree. It discourages people from even admitting they have an opposing view, much more discourages them from engaging in discussion so both sides can learn about each other. It increases the divide between right and left, between Trump supporter and Hillary supporter. It makes the political environment more toxic than it already is.

SO's policies take a strong stance in the other direction: they encourage dialog. They encourage listening and considering things you don't agree with. They encourage us to make SO a safe place for level-headed people. Even if you don't think this post quite goes over the line, if we really believe these are good policies, we should be asking, "How can I be as kind and respectful as possible, even though I am saying something controversial?", not, "How close can I get to disrespecting people before it's not allowed anymore?" That goes 2 times for moderators, and 1024 times for staff.

I am angry and hurt over this. Not because of the political view expressed, but because of the watering down of the policies that made me think SO would be a safe place for me and anyone else. I can't reasonably deny that I feel these emotions, and they probably bleed through in my words. However, over the past 3 days, I have done all I can to ensure that my words remain respectful and rational. If I have failed in any regard, I ask that someone point it out to me so I can rectify it.

A personal plea to Joel

Joel,

In the spirit of trying to be nice myself, I encourage you to tone down this language and be more considerate of those who disagree with you. I'd also like to say that I understand your intentions were good: you wanted to bring attention to a policy you believe is deeply damaging to SO, your country, and the world. It is solely in your execution that I think you crossed the line here, and I encourage you to delete the post and start over and express your views another way. SO can either be a place that demonizes the Trump administration and those who support its policies, or it can be a place where Trump supporters and opposition sit down and have a level-headed, respectful conversation about them. The choice is yours.

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    Your conclusion section is enormously helpful to keep in mind in general, but I think your strongest point is that so much of the language "feel[s] personal when applied." I suspect that's the source of a lot of the emotions; the SE policy doesn't say so specifically, but one of the traps with this sort of language is that it's all too easy for supporters of a position to gloss over personal-when-applied language, since "he's just talking about [the post|the executive order|this photo of your face]!" So calling that out specifically keeps us on guard for that. +1 for a thorough analysis. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 6:54
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    I agree with a lot of this post, but the end of the conclusion seems very off. SO should be neither a place which demonises an administration and its policies nor a place where calm political discussion occurs. There are plenty of appropriate sites for political discussion, but this is not one of them. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 20:18
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    @PeterTaylor I understand your point. I can agree that politics should be kept out of SO proper and its meta, and the same for most SE sites. (E.g., it's bothersome that Skeptics seems to be becoming "Trump-claims.SE".) However, it seems like there is room for discussion on at least chat, given that we have several meta posts describing how policy applies to political discourse on chat. I think this is mostly not bothersome, as long as it's confined to appropriate rooms. I also wanted to focus on the Be Nice policy, which meant leaving out most stuff about being on-topic.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 20:40
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    I love Joel's post (in the original format), and strongly believe in the importance of his being allowed to have a voice on the topic in Meta. That being said, your answer is excellent, and, imho, accurate. I was glad to see "stupid" removed from the post, and thought that was enough, but you are absolutely correct. His post shut down opposition without allowing the possibility of disagreeing, and did so in an inherently hostile fashion. I understand why he did that, but that's irrelevant to this question, and your answer. Thank you for taking the time to articulate this.
    – Beofett
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 21:32
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    Right, as an Dutch citizen who does not oppose Trump's decree (but does think it should have been executed with more care), I feel like I'm being treated as a second-class human. The USA is always great and brings freedom and regime change around the world, but when a new president is elected and the elite doesn't like it apparently the world is too small. His (Joel's) post only enrages me to the point where I have to ask myself how far I have been radicalized over the recent years. Joel's elitist attitude is simply dangerous. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 22:01
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    @Beofett I appreciate your opinion on whether this content is appropriate, but I would like to point out that the policy being violated was written and enacted by Joel & co. The policy and the values it is based on are designed to protect the community, to ensure that it is a "safe place." Joel is welcome to make any other venue an "unsafe place" for dissenters, but SO previously decided it doesn't want this community to be like that. To betray those principles because it is politically expedient deeply undermines that goal, divides the community, and destroys trust by breaking promises.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 22:06
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    I didn't mention my opinion on the appropriateness of the post to support it, but rather to let you know that even though I support the message, I can see past my emotional investment to see the merit of your answer.
    – Beofett
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 22:37
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    @Beofett I was going to try to respond again, but I think you're right. I didn't really understand your original comment. So I just want to say, "Thank you."
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 23:35
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    "I will say that there may be a respectful way to express that you believe an action is immoral." -- For starters, "I believe an action is immoral" is a good example of a respectful way to express this. Joel didn't even give us that, only "The action is immoral. [The end.]". This also reveals that the poster fundamentally does not acknowledge that morals are relative, it simply states Joel's own morality as an absolute. In his POV it may be absolute, but this is an implicit shutdown of folks with other morals.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 23:51
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    Thank you for, very impressively, avoiding commenting on the issues talked about in the post, and focusing on the language.
    – Nic
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 2:26
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    This a thousand times. I hope Joel and the SE team read this and use it as a justification to either heavily edit, remove or histolock Joel's post. Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 2:43
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    "we should be asking, "How can I be as kind and respectful as possible, even though I am saying something controversial?", not, "How close can I get to disrespecting people before it's not allowed anymore?" " - So much this. Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 7:32
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    @KarlKnechtel Essentially, the staff doubled down on these issues and chased away everyone who disagreed, the biggest purge happening in the wake of the Monica scandal. In my experience, mods are now outright dishonest in looking for justifications for punishing people for their sociopolitical views. I don't recommend this site anymore.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 14, 2023 at 22:17
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    ... Did something happen more recently that you're referring to? Commented Oct 14, 2023 at 22:22
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    @KarlKnechtel It's just an ongoing thing now, with pretty much every blog post or rule change dripping with "social justice" ideology. The staff is more interested in activism than actually making the site do what it's supposed to.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 14, 2023 at 22:23
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TL;DR: In this case, it's complicated. But the post is at minimum not outright insulting. Its insinuations come only as part of outside context. Whether or not this violates "Be Nice" is highly personal opinion, there is no objective answer here. I know this is not the definitive answer you are looking for.

Joel's post is strongly worded. It is politically charged. It is reasonably biased. It is passionate.

But it is not "not nice" -- it's not directly insulting anybody, at least not on the surface. A reader may infer something not nice from it, but I don't think the post itself is blatantly violating that policy.

All of the objections to it are centered around various implications that only exist because of the political context that many readers are reading it in. It's a controversial, hot, divisive issue, but the post itself, removing all context and removing all passion, technically isn't rude. Its statement of "immorality" is directed at an idea, not at a person.

The problem is, this isn't exactly a great question to be asking about that particular post. Because of the nature of the topic, it's very difficult to distinguish between the post itself and the ideas the post is communicating. Also because of how hot this topic is, it's difficult to distinguish judgment of the idea from judgment of supporters/opponents of said idea. This really fuzzies the line, and complicates application of the already fuzzy "Be Nice" policy.

Another way of looking at it is: Whether or not this specific post adheres to the policy sort of depends on your feeling about the underlying political issue. In normal cases it's universally clear that a post is not "Be Nice" quality. In this case it's tied too closely to a readers' political views. Those who agree with Joel are probably unlikely to see it as violating "Be Nice". Those who either do not agree, or do not care, may be more likely to see it in a negative light. In this case it's very much tied to the readers' views about the idea rather than to the language of the post. But to confidently talk about "Be Nice", we need a clearer field without so many complex tie-ins to social and political issues.

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    Wow, that downvote came in faster than I could even read the post. You make a good point that this is a border case: in the end, I guess it comes down to "is insulting an idea insulting those who stand behind it"? Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 3:48
  • @VoteToClose That's how I feel about it. Another way of looking at it is: whether or not this specific post adheres to the policy sort of depends on your feeling about the underlying political issue. In normal cases it's universally clear that a post is not "Be Nice" quality. In this it's tied too closely to a readers' political views. Those who agree with Joel are unlikely to see it as violating "Be Nice". Those who either do not agree, or do not care, may be more likely to see it in a negative light. But to talk about "Be Nice", we need a clearer field without so many complex tie-ins.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 3:54
  • @VoteToClose "I guess it comes down to "is insulting an idea insulting those who stand behind it"? " Usually it's not if you do it with a minimum of respect. Like "With a due respect, I think it will not gain anything to .... because ..." Extending the feeling of insulting to everything even remotely related would only make you feel insulted every second of your life, for example if someone downvotes an answer of yours, etc. .... It probably depends on how nice "be nice" really means. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 10:45
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    @Trilarion Calling a policy "immoral" necessarily entails a strong judgment on anyone who supports or agrees with it. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 21:38
  • @chryslis I agree it does entail a strong judgement, but it's still respectful I'd say. Example: With all due respect I think this action is immoral. Be nice as I understand it is not about what you say but how you say it. Otherwise you couldn't express quite a lot of ideas. So, if you have a better idea how to express the strong opinion that something would be immoral I'm open to it? Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 21:49
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    @Trilarion "With all due respect I think this action is immoral" would be a good start, which is not at all how Joel expressed it. He just blatantly declared that "it is immoral". "I think..." and "I believe..." are a pretty good start for respectful expression, none of which is present in Joel's post. The lack of such things says a lot about how open the person truly is to an alternate POV -- "I think your view is ridiculous" and "Your view is ridiculous" are two very different conversation starters, and show two very different fundamental worldviews.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 21:50
  • Sure. That's what Be nice is all about and Joel could have been nicer but the content mainly stays the same. He thinks (and is quite sure in this regard) that the action is immoral. That alone should not be insulting, I think. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 22:04
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I do not believe Joel's announcement is in violation of the "Be Nice" policy.

In response to recent nasty political arguments in various chatrooms, Shog9 put together reasonable guidelines for political discussion. Several people have argued that this post is in violation of these guidelines, so I'll quote one of Shog9's (now deleted) comments on Joel's post:

Gonna refer you and everyone else to this discussion, [redacted]. Nice doesn't mean lying or biting your tongue; Joel's not here posting insulting "cheeto" memes, he's expressing concerns about a policy that he believes is actively harmful to the community we've all worked to build here. You may disagree with that; ok - then post an answer explaining why, in which you also avoid insults and cheap shots. That's how we do "nice" here. Direct replies to chat please.

An interesting discussion follows in chat, that I highly recommend reading.

Joel has strong wording for an executive order, wording that can be argued against using facts and reason. A sharp criticism of an executive order is not an attack against those who voted for a candidate. I know I've been very critical of orders by candidates I've voted for, and I'm not personally offended when people go after the actions of these candidates.

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    I think he did breach the "be Nice" policy and it was Shog9 that edited it to bring it more in line
    – Madivad
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:12
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    Good last paragraph. A lot of political discussion worldwide is suffering a reductive duality at present, and it does not take account of the complexity of the world. There are surely people who are Trump supporters on balance but disagree with his immigration position. There are likely some people who hate Trump and would never vote for him, but like his immigration stance or feel neutral about it. Similarly, I've noticed a lot of commentary that equates criticism of Trump with ardent support for Clinton, and vice versa, and neither of those assertions hold water either.
    – halfer
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 23:07
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    I think this misses the point. "Sharp criticism" is not the same thing as "inflammatory language." No one who has said that the Be Nice policy has been violated is suggesting that Joel is not allowed to offer a strong criticism. We are only saying that Joel's choice of words cross the line of the policy. Additionally, you don't actually reference the policy or the post at all here. This answer merely asserts the appropriateness of the post, without actually discussing the details of the post or the policy and how they do or don't go together.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 3:21
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    @Madivad Wouldn't be the first time someone's post was edited to smooth out the wording either by the OP or by another user or moderator.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 5:34
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    @AdamLear except in this case the community was explicitly forbidden from performing any kind of edit on the post for any reason whatsoever.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 21:41
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I found the post both rude and offensive on many levels. Not because of the contents, which I happen to fully agree with. But because SO is supposed to be an international site.

Out there, there are dictators waging wars against their own population, using chemical weapons against them, bombing them, torturing them, starving them. But it didn't happen in the USA, so no reason to take a stand.

Out there, totalitarian regimes censor all media and block their population from using sites like SO. You could end up in prison for less. But it didn't happen in the USA, so no reason to take a stand.

Out there, as many as 100 people got inconveniently stuck at airports. To the point where they might miss out on their favourite TV shows, couldn't have hamburgers for dinner or perhaps even lacked internet access! And this happened in USA, so clearly this is the right moment to take a stand!

By turning a programming site, of all things, into another political circus like the rest of the internet. Because we truly need yet another social media for these things.

This self-absorbed narcissism, sheer hypocrisy and complete lack of empathy truly sickens me. Donald Trump does not need to build a wall, because it is already there. US empathy ends at the US border.

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    What has it to do with the "Be nice" policy? I find the content of this answer worthwhile to read but I think it answers another question not this one (the original one maybe). Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 10:47
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    The ironic tone in the fourth paragraph ("as many as 100 people got inconveniently stuck...") is kind of hard to square with the preceding paragraphs. The people you're concerned about, living in horrible circumstances, are the same people who are subject to being detained at the airport.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 13:19
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    @JoshCaswell So very naive. I would think the very last thing a war refugee would do is to buy an expensive air plane ticket to Donald Trump's USA. The people who got stuck were more likely already living in the western world, but with multiple nationalities. Refugees from wars (most often started by USA) end up in neighbouring countries and in Europe. Come back with those arguments when USA actually helps war refugees. I live not far from a small city in Sweden which is famous for accepting more refugees from Iraq than the whole of USA together. Again, US empathy ends at the US border.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:02
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    fallacy of relative privation
    – samgak
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 20:41
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    @samgak the "fallacy of relative privation" is only a fallacy when it's used to deny the existence of a phenomenon. That's clearly not what's happening here; what's happening here is that an argument is being made that calls someone else's priorities into question. It's really tiresome to see this false application of the fallacy - just as it is tiresome to see people cry "ad hominem!" when someone's credentials as a subject matter expert are called into question, or when facts about a person are used to point out hypocrisy or irony. Commented Aug 12, 2023 at 10:54
  • @KarlKnechtel Why are you trying to start an argument over a 6 year old comment on a programming website instead of trying to solve climate change or feed starving children in Africa? That's not a fallacy (allegedly), I'm just calling your priorities into question.
    – samgak
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 9:13
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    I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm pointing out that your previous comment was misguided. I'm doing it because I care a lot about people arguing accurately and honestly, and it sincerely annoys me when pithy replies that inappropriately cite a fallacy are well received. Of course, you're welcome to believe whatever you like about my priorities privately, but in the current context it comes across as a cheap attempt to score points. Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 16:58
  • I am not literally questioning your priorities, that was a parallel construction of your argument to try to show the absurdity of it. This answer is a text book example of the fallacy of relative privation, to be honest. The fallacy is "Y is more important, so we shouldn't care about X" and not "Y is more important, so X does not exist" (as you seem to claim). Also, in most cases pointing out hypocrisy IS a form of ad hominem (specifically the tu quoque fallacy). Someone's personal hypocrisy or poor priorities have no bearing on the validity of their argument, which is why these are fallacies.
    – samgak
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 20:12
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No Edit #6 where 'frankly stupid' is removed from the question is an admission of the hostile nature of the question in its original form.

The second problematic bit is as follows:

It is immoral, unconstitutional, and fundamentally un-American.

These words aren't used to make any logical argument but stand in as negative labels to be attached to those who disagree with his political opinion.

Take un-American does this really even have meaning? On many other issues Joel sides against the constitution. It is simply that Joel has identified being American and supporting the constitution is of value to the group he wants to attack.

Historically this site hasn't been American or politically centred and I hope it stays that way.

-3

Yes.

At no point in the post is any of the strong language directed at anyone. There's a difference between "Position X is stupid" and "You're stupid for taking position X". Notice that one attacks an issue and the other attacks a person.

People may feel an insult was implied, but it wasn't ever actually made.

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    The Be Nice policy explicitly forbids language that "feels personal when applied to even when they're applied to posts." Granted, we have to replace "posts" with "political beliefs," but it clearly goes against the spirit of that wording.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 2:19
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    This is the same as with sexual harassment rules in companies and law. It is not whether insult was intended but whether an insult was perceived. Joel could have done a much better job stating his position without being interpreted as not nice.
    – onnoweb
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 17:03
-4

Yes

The post addresses specific issue. It does not single out any group of people, nor does it use strong language.

Saying "I think X is immoral" is not against Be Nice policy. And it mustn't be - every society needs a valid and accepted way to express disagreement.

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    There's a big difference between, "I think X is immoral," and "X is immoral... and un-American." The former suggests you just might listen if someone explains their disagreement. The latter suggests you would rather they don't even voice their opinion.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 2:49
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    And it's even stronger if it's the first thing you say in a discussion. If you feel you must say, "I think X is immoral," about something, it would be best to soften the blow with explanation why first.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 3:17
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    @jpmc26 Those statements are equal. Neither morality, nor americaness of an action is strictly defined - it's a matter of opinion. But that opinion was expressed politely. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:27
  • They are logically equivalent. They are not emotionally equivalent, and you know it. The Be Nice policy absolutely addresses the latter.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 16:03
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    @jpmc26 No, I don't know it. I'm not an american, not a big nationalist either. So maybe to you americans un-American is a heavy insult. I admit I couldn't anticipate that. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 16:17
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    ...You also couldn't anticipate that calling someone's opinion "immoral" out of the blue with no prior explanation could be upsetting? I'm gonna be really honest here: I think you know that what I'm saying is right, but admitting it leaves a sour taste in your mouth. I understand that; I've been there myself. And it's hard to get past. But it's better for everyone if we put aside those kinds of feelings and do what's right anyway.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 16:20
  • 2
    @jpmc26 I don't think any explanation was clear - there are families split, students who can't get to their college etc... I'm also gonna be honest: You're so strongly convinced that whatever you're trying to say is some universal truth that you genuinely don't believe I can even disagree. And that's where you're wrong. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 23:44
  • I admit that I am truly bewildered, and some of my comments here are out of line. My apologies. But the Be Nice policy is pretty unambiguous: language that is likely to be interpreted as a personal attack is forbidden. My original comments were the beginning of forming an opinion about the fact that something possibly can be called immoral in a polite way, but are you arguing that Joel's post is not easily interpreted as a personal attack? I sympathize with people who are facing difficulty, but site policy demands remaining polite because that's the most effective way to change minds.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 23:59
-8

If you disagree with this answer, downvote this answer, not the question, please.

No.

The word choice used does not adhere to SE's "Be Nice" policy. Specifically, section one:

Rudeness and belittling language are not okay. Your tone should match the way you'd talk in person with someone you respect and whom you want to respect you.

However, it is my opinion (and the opinion of several others in the affiliated chat) that the language used in "Time to take a stand" does not adhere to the "Be Nice" policy. Many of us believe that the language used not only degrades those with opposing viewpoints to Joel's, but also discourages discussion.

To highlight a few of the word choices we thought were unhelpful to the conversation, I have provided a list of sections which have been up to debate through the edit history of "Time to take a stand" and why I believe that they do not adhere to "Be Nice":

It is immoral...

... morally repugnant ...

These statements directly insults the core morality of those with opposing viewpoints.

... frankly stupid ...

This statement establishes that Joel's belief must be fact, which discourages conversation (subjective portrayed as objective). This statement also insults the intelligence of those with opposing viewpoints. Furthermore, this may fall under the section of the "Be Nice" policy stating:

Don't be a jerk ... Name-calling. Focus on the post, not the person. That includes terms that feel personal even when they're applied to posts (like "lazy", "ignorant", or "whiny").

It is the belief of many of us, but not all, in chat that the words chosen will (and have) caused anger and offense.

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  • 13
    Two disagreements: (1) Criticism of a policy doesn't imply an equivalent criticism of its supporters (cf. apaul34208's answer). (2) The lack of "in my opinion" or other such prefix doesn't imply an attempt to pass opinion as fact ("subjective unless accompanied by evidence" makes for a better default than "objective unless accompanied by in-my-opinion"). (For the record, I upvoted the question but downvoted this answer.)
    – duplode
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 3:50
  • 1
    @duplode Personally, I disagree with (1), and I don't think either of us will come to an established agreement on it. As for (2), I see your point. For consistency's sake, I will leave this answer as-is. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 3:53
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    You misunderstand the meaning of "frankly". It is by no means a claim to objectivity. It means to speak up when there are reasons to stay silent. To quote the famous line from Gone with the Wind: "Frankly, I don't give a damn" - not at all objective.
    – MSalters
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 10:32
  • 1
    @MSalters I didn't misunderstand the word "frankly". It was the whole sentence that concerned me as an imposition of belief. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:42
-14

Policy doesn't apply because The owner of the company wrote that post

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  • 5
    Being the owner does not give a user rights to disregard site policy.
    – Gnemlock
    Commented Feb 7, 2017 at 1:33
  • 5
    Apparently it does. @Gnemlock
    – TecBrat
    Commented Feb 7, 2017 at 7:51
  • 1
    @TecBrat: And that post is negative-voted so no, it doesn't.
    – Joshua
    Commented Oct 5, 2018 at 22:43

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