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I hope this is the right place to ask this, but I was just browsing the JSF tag and saw BalusC, one of SO's top users, was banned.

See https://stackoverflow.com/users/157882/balusc

Now I looked at the rules in the provided link at https://blog.stackoverflow.com/2009/04/a-day-in-the-penalty-box

None of these seem to apply to this user. If anything, this concerns a top SO user whose public behavior is an example to most of us. His answers are very much respected in the JSF and Java communities and not having BalusC here anymore would be absolutely a negative thing for both SO and all users who use his answers.

Is this maybe a glitch in the SO system or is he really banned?

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  • 66
    The reason for a time out given to a user is private between them and moderators, but no this is not a glitch.
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 21:58
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    Here's a small clue as to what triggered this: stackoverflow.com/posts/28622773/revisions , stackoverflow.com/posts/28635413/revisions
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 22:18
  • 92
    His deletion policy is definitely not in line with community guidelines, but with over 15,000 answers authored, perhaps some leeway should be granted. And if there really was no communication about this beforehand (like, ever) then a ban seems extreme.
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 22:22
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    All I can say is that it's generally standard policy to briefly suspend someone who appears to be rage-quitting by deleting a ton of content. That prevents further deletions while this is being discussed. I can't speak for the moderator responsible, but that's possibly what happened here. Usually, this is handled quietly in a private discussion rather than on Meta or on Google+, but I guess we're past that now.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 22:40
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    @Brad but in this case - if BalusC's account is correct - he was banned without warning, then sent a canned message inviting no discussion at all, not even mentioning a lift of the ban as a possibility! If that's standard policy then the policy needs to be changed, right now.
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 22:46
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    Wow, this is bad, bad publicity for SO. I'm fairly new (activly) on SO, but was thinking of doing quite similar things. I can imagine a 7 day ban if this happened repeatedly and only then if it still happended after good proffesional communication between grown-ups.
    – Kukeltje
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 22:47
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    @bluefeet but the message doesn't really invite any response. It says that if you feel you were justified deleting the content, you should contact Stack Exchange "through the 'contact us' link at the bottom of the page" - not the moderator. As to the mod, you can "let me know if you have any further questions." It's a terribly worded canned message, adding insult to the injury of a suspension for someone who's been active on SO nearly every day for more than five years.
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:08
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    @Pekka, okay, I was afraid my hunch about that was right, but... are you really implying the moderator should have known better because the user who exhibited "destructive" behavior towards their own answers was well-known? That's... not how I see moderation taking place, really, you know, in real life with actual humans. After a while, I suppose the usernames don't make a difference anymore and you're only judging behavior. And I think that's a good thing. Ideally, moderation should not even need to know the users it applies to. Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:13
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    @Gabe yes, his deletion policy is wrong. So you send him a moderator message and discuss it with him. When that fails, repeatedly, then perhaps you suspend him, after long and careful deliberation with your fellow moderators.
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:13
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    @Gabe the worst possible BalusC could have done is deleting 5 answers per day. How is that a rampage justifying an immediate suspension with no actual attempt to reach out to the user first?
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:19
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    @FrédéricHamidi if you are a member in such exceptionally good standing as BalusC is, then yes I except moderators not to apply preferetial treatment, but to assume a bit more good faith than with someone who's been a member for two weeks. Especially since the "destructive" behaviour in question is deleting a number of answers that you can count with one hand, and no actual irreparable damage was being done.
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:21
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    @GabeSechan If I were a responsible moderator, I would think twice before suspending the 3rd highest rep user on a site with millions of users. Clearly there was either some serious oversight, or there's more to the story which neither side has disclosed.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:23
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    Having read the comment thread and (highly originally) upvoted all of @Pekka's comments, I suspect that some sort of official documentation on moderation policies is in order... 5 answers a day for a newbie could be a rage quit but for BalusC or other high-rep users it can hardly be misconstrued as such. Time for another of your popular feature requests Pekka?
    – Ben
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:26
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    @GabeSechan we're talking about a max of 5 additional answers that could be deleted right? That's a tiny risk and IMHO well worth it to take to try to contact him first. As for the paint, if you saw your beloved spouse with whom you have no argument or fight stand next to your house with a miniature can of paint, would you also assume the worst and let the cops pick her up "just to be sure" without even asking her what she's doing?
    – Mike Braun
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:55
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    For users above a certain rep level (e.g. 250K on SO), there should need to be a quorum of mods to put a suspension in place. This would help to: respect the contributions the user has made to the site; eliminate the possibility that this is a personal issue between mod and user; and make it less likely that snap decisions would be made. This wouldn't exempt high-rep users from moderation - it would just remove many of the doubts over why a particular action was taken
    – barrowc
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 3:22

3 Answers 3

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We have three problems here that I see:

  1. A well-respected member of the community saw fit to delete (and deface) a few of his (many) answers. Why he did so I can only guess based on what he wrote; his reasons are his own.

  2. The system sounded an alarm based on... fairly stupid heuristics. 5 deleted answers in a day is pretty alarming for most users, but when you average > 2 answers per day every day it's hardly a real problem. By volume, this is hardly a great loss; by % of total contributions, it's nothing.

  3. The pre-written message created for these scenarios is... Well, it hits some sour notes, which isn't particularly great when someone actually is rage-quitting and certainly counter-productive when used in cases where the recipient isn't.

I can't fix #1. I hope BalusC sees this discussion - regardless of his rationale, it's clear that others here also feel that deleting answers like those that were removed is a loss for the greater community - regardless of whether or not the original recipient cared. IMHO, the essence of Stack Overflow is who the asker is and whether they respond shouldn't matter - we're writing for the ages here, whether we think about it that way or not; askers are but the providers of grist for that mill.

We can fix #2 and #3 though - and we will [Update 4/7/2015: we now have]. I've already discussed a better trigger mechanism with George and some other moderators, and a better canned message with Robert Cartaino - we'll try to get both of them updated ASAP.

This is my fault; George acted in good faith, based on the information he was given in the little time that he had to do so. But I've known this was a problem waiting to happen for at least 3 years now, I've had to clarify it too many times for mods on other sites, and yet I never got around to changing anything. I'm ashamed - moderator tooling and guidance are linchpins for this system, and I let this one shear off. I sincerely apologize for my neglect.

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    A similar thing happened to me in my former membership - whether by mistake or not, when I had the deletion countdown happening, I received that canned message, was suspended, and could not stop the countdown - but that is past (and nothing needs to be done) - my point is, good on the team for fixing this up. Onwards and upwards!
    – user4469467
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 2:14
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    @SabreTooth: Wow, the suspension made it impossible to stop the deletion? That's a major bug SE has to correct, whether you ever again request deletion and get suspended or not. Though it's quite obvious how that could creep in. Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 2:21
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    I've occasionally deleted answers when I wanted to disengage from a question, when I've decided that the question wasn't a good one and my post was keeping it from getting swept up by the roomba, or when I decided (based on lack of feedback from the OP) that it wasn't a good answer and because of my answer there discouraged others from trying to provide a better answer. Are these actions helpful or hurtful to the site as a whole? And if the answer is "it depends", then shouldn't it be a discussion between me and a mod about the quality of the posts rather than a push of a button?
    – user289086
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 3:02
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    Yes, @MichaelT. The irony here for me is that I've probably deleted a greater % of my answers than most other people, and of course was never suspended or even warned about this because no checks for such behavior were added until much later. I used to tell the Progse mods that their job wasn't done until my profile was mostly grey...
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 3:17
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    @Deduplicator it was a little while ago, I am good now - having fun on SE again
    – user4469467
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 3:45
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    For me, the canned message is quite good. The only issue was using it with a high rep user instead of writing a tailored message. Balus deserved more attention/respect due to his large contribution to SO (even being wrong in this case).
    – Zanon
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 12:38
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    This is, quite simply, an absolutely fantastic answer, one of the best examples of this kind of thing I've ever seen, and a privilege to read. Massive kudos to you, Shog. Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 19:02
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    I disagree with #2 being a problem. BalusC didn't realize that his behavior was a problem, and it could have continued indefinitely if it hadn't been flagged. But, it would be nice if those heuristics would alert the user in question first, so that user has a chance to correct that behavior.
    – Brian
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 20:12
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    As balus mentioned himself why in the world is there a delete button if he shouldn't be deleting.
    – JonH
    Commented Mar 19, 2015 at 0:31
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    There's a direct answer to that question which would fit in a comment and explain nothing ("because sometimes it's useful to delete posts"), and there's another answer that won't fit in a comment but might actually cover some of the historical tensions that exist behind this, @JonH. If you want the latter, post a separate question, please.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Mar 19, 2015 at 1:31
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    @JonH why wouldn't there be a delete button? Say a user posts a useless or wrong answer to a question which is then downvoted. It is a net loss for everybody if that answer is not deleted, and a time waste to delete it through review queues. If the user self-deletes, it's a net win for everybody involved. It is not meant for deleting useful content (which is why it's heavily rate limited), and especially not when the reason is something as inane as OP not accepting or responding to an answer, as was the case with at least one of BalusCs posts.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Mar 19, 2015 at 15:17
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    Just a quick suggestion, since this seems like such a hot topic. It appears that SE has some fine-grained control over alerting (even if the alert triggers could be better defined). But, like most sites, does not have fine-grained enforcement. If a user is perpetrating action that triggers an alert, then should there not be a way of suspending just that particular action? (in this case, the ability to delete content). To my mind, every action should be (or have a corresponding) permission that can be granted or denied.
    – Sam Axe
    Commented Mar 20, 2015 at 0:55
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    Its a hard thing to automate correctly. I have a few questions that I realize were of poor quality for various reasons, and that cannot be reworded to work because the very premise of the question is off. I am somewhat fearful of deleting them because of these rules, and to see a top ranked member get banned is icing on the cake. Please strongly reconsider how the robot is going to work into the future, as well as providing a special warning to users after deleting many posts before they get banned (something more substantial than the current little popup). Im glad to see this is a WIP.
    – BAR
    Commented Mar 20, 2015 at 18:29
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    My proposed adjustments to this trigger are in the dev-work queue for next week, @BAR - they make this a lot more strict, focusing on activity that is clearly both unusual and very likely harmful. The intent of this trigger was to identify rage-quits, not micro-manage deletions - I'm bringing the actual test inline with that goal.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Mar 20, 2015 at 19:43
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    @ChristianStrempfer The bigger system worked as intended, but on a much deeper level than that. A controversial action was taken, the community was able to openly discuss and express their opinions, the opinions were considered seriously with a bigger picture in mind, and a reasonable resolution was presented. Can't ask for much more than that. Regardless of the details of such-and-such warning triggers, I'd call this a great success for SE's model and philosophies.
    – Jason C
    Commented Mar 21, 2015 at 2:35
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There are a few parts here; I'll explain each of them separately.

The user in question recently defaced a number of their upvoted answers; it was brought up through an automated flag (deletion of content).

Here are some of the answers that were defaced (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15...(of 20 that I counted so far).

Clearly, this is concerning. Any time a user not only deletes their content, but purposefully obsfucates it; we want to figure out what's going on.

We take destruction and defacing of content seriously. It makes sense, since without content, we don't have anything. That's why we don't let question askers unilaterally delete their own questions with upvoted answers; and that's why we have a mod message specifically tailored to destruction or defacing of people's own content.

In this case, a very high percentage of content had upvotes -- in most cases it had multiple upvotes, meaning multiple people found it useful.

It's normally strange to find users deleting their own upvoted content, it's even more strange to have it defaced as well. A plausible scenario would be someone hacking into their account to 'get back' at them. With that many answers, it's not surprising if it went unnoticed.

I sent Balus the message linked to in his Google+ post. There are a few important things to note about this message:

  • It's a templated message. This is so that moderators speak with a unified voice; and don't have to rewrite the same thing over and over for very common issues.
  • The suspension was 'automatic' on the part of the message. If you send someone that message, the system strongly recommends suspending them. Since this was the first 'infraction' (if you can call it that), 7 days is the amount the system chose.
  • The purpose of the suspension is to put a stop to the defacing, and figure out what's going on.

The final part is that I've been on a plane for most of the day. When I issued the message and suspension, I was about an hour outside of Portland with 10% battery left. I did leave a note for the moderators in the Blue Room so that if something happened, they'd know what and why. This is literally the first thing I saw when I opened my laptop at the hotel; and I'm responding as such.

In general, answerers should not deface their own content, whether it's deleted or not. If you find yourself deleting your upvoted content, the question is: Why? If it's due to a lack of feedback, remember this: answers don't just help the OP, they help everyone that has that same issue.

If you believe the question is never going to be of use to anyone, vote to close or delete the question (if it fits one of our stated reasons for closure).

I've reached out to Balus as well.

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    This makes it totally understandable what went on - even though it arguably would have been best to just reach out to him first, without the suspension. But it's always easy to judge in hindsight when you're not involved. Then what remains is that the message template sucks. It is badly worded, doesn't invite any actual interaction with the moderator about the issue at hand or the penalty, and should be fixed to address cases like this.
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:31
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    Yeah, that templated message feels like a slap across the face with a cactus... (specifically this species)
    – Mysticial
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:34
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    @Pekka웃 That's the problem with templates. Unfortunately, taking the time to write a tailored message to everyone takes more time than understanding is saved (prohibitively so). Most of the time people don't respond to our messages, and if they do, it's not usually a very nice response. It creates a negative feedback loop for us where it's advisable to just say what needs to be said and not invite a discussion on the topic. You're right; it sucks.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:34
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    Thanks for the answer, but this rule to delete / deface your own answers is not really clear. I wasn't aware of it for one. If this behavior can be auto-flagged, can't the system generate a warning for the user first? I agree that SO needs content, but we also need people answering! And people like BalusC are rare, we don't want them to stop answering here, do we?
    – Mike Braun
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:45
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    @MikeBraun there are two separate issues: 1) Yes, the system should let someone know they're doing something we think is 'bad' without requiring moderator intervention. 2) People do not get special treatment; that strikes at the heart of fairness and does more to hurt the impartiality of moderators than anything else. More than anything, we strive to maintain our fairness and impartiality. All that said, we're currently talking about ways to improve this flag and lessen its... harmful effects.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Mar 17, 2015 at 23:48
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    Template or not, only if it was a fully automatuc process, I can understand it. Otherwise, /"taking the time to write a tailored message to everyone… "/ BalusC is not everyone… So I hope the ban is reevaluated soon… But I appreciate the clarification
    – Kukeltje
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 0:19
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    I'm pretty sure that in 7 days of suspension SO is going to lose (as in "not gain") more answers than those 20 that he erased. Please talk, understand each other, resolve this issue and remove the suspension.
    – RinaldoDev
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 1:19
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    answers don't just help the OP, they help everyone that has that same issue And that makes it even worse to deface it after "weeks with not feedback" (paraphrased from the G+ post). The OP already got their answer, so what's the point of punishing every single other person who might have benefited from it in the future? The only person this doesn't hurt is the OP of the question. That's the part about all this I really can't wrap my brain around.
    – ivarni
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 5:57
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    @georgestocker about the "special treatment", isn't that strongly ingrained in SO's rep system already? The more rep I got the more things I was allowed to do here. If we treat everyone truly equal, should we just give every new user access to every feature right away?
    – Mike Braun
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 10:24
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    @Pekka웃 "been best to just reach out to him first" - surely the point of the auto-suspension is to stop the behaviour, quickly, in case it is a hack or deliberate defacement or whatever. Then the reason behind it can be investigated without the risk of the behaviour continuing. As far as I can see, this worked pretty much how it's supposed to.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 11:51
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    George - You sometimes go too fast when it comes to being a moderator...I've seen it before from you. Don't you think you should of reached out to one of OUR BEST users of the system before you pulled the trigger?
    – JonH
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 19:37
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    @JonH Deface and Deletion of Good Content has historically called for the action I took. This is not new. The purpose of the suspension is to stop the deface/destruction and then figure out from there. Normally users simply send us a message and say, "Yea, this is why I'm doing this" and we reach an understanding (which isn't always the same). As Shog9 has written in his eloquent (and spot on) answer, it's been somewhat broken for three years at a system level, so I'm not sure it's fair to blame a moderator for doing exactly what we were supposed to do.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 21:25
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    @JonH That said, if you want to have a separate conversation about my propensity to 'pull the trigger'; let's talk about that. If you'd like, bring it up in a meta post with examples or I'll jump into chat with you and we can discuss it. I do work for the community, after all.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Mar 18, 2015 at 21:26
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    Probably next month, @JonH. BTW, George didn't delete your comment - there are a few other mods around.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Mar 19, 2015 at 1:33
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    @peterporter what use are those well articulated answers if they've since been deleted by him?
    – Nick Coad
    Commented Mar 20, 2015 at 4:25
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I would like to see we as a community respect moral rights. It's perhaps not something known in the US but CC-Licenses as being internationalized handle it IMHO.

That means if it's a valid decision of the author to delete the content - even donated earlier - this might need to be respected.

This means: It's too easy to say it's just against community policy. It's most likely also too easy that CC won't allow to do this. There can be reasons you deny to use content given under license.

But the limit is very high.

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