163

So I've been thinking about the rep/privilege system on SO/SE, and the one thing that sticks out to me the most about the way the site works is the fact that moderation tools are awarded solely based on rep.

Because moderation activities do not yield rep for the most part (flagging, review queue, etc), this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. People are always saying on Meta that reputation points are a measure of community involvement, not skill, yet people who are involved in the community in ways that aren't necessarily answering/asking tons of questions are not given access to moderation tools.

It shouldn't be the case that rep-farming users who repeatedly answer duplicate/bad questions are given access to moderation tools, yet people who spend more of their time editing posts, flagging, reviewing, etc are not. The ability to answer questions is not really related to the ability to moderate the site.

As a pretty low-rep user who's been around SO for awhile, this bugs me. I'd really like to participate more on SO by reviewing and such (I see that the low quality review queue is consistently inundated). I see moderators and high-rep users complaining all the time about how the load is too high on them for reviewing all the flags, etc. Why don't we give these privileges to more users based on their moderation record rather than their answering record?

From my personal standpoint, I doubt I will ever be a high-rep user. Most of the questions I can answer have been asked before and warrant closure as duplicates, or they're not good questions for whatever reason. So I end up flagging and maybe leaving a comment pointing in the right direction. I'm not really willing to answer bad/duplicate questions just to gain reputation, it feels wrong to me. And while it's true that I can and do try to find harder questions that I can answer with some research, generally by the time I've figured out a good response it's answered and the point-gathering window is pretty much closed.

So what's the proper recourse for this? Will SO ever consider giving rep for moderation activities, aside from the 2 points earned from a successful edit (which, I might note, also has to be reviewed by a higher rep user--the more edits I make the more work I create for them--seems silly to me).

16
  • 23
    Allowing those who don't have "skin in the game" to moderate has its own problems. We already have complaints about "Meta police"; I'm not really excited about the idea of users whose primary interaction with the site is closing questions. On the other hand, editing is a great way to help, regardless of your rep. (Also note that it's far from impossible to get up votes by answering a question late. If you took some time to really look into your answer, you've likely got extra info that other answers are lacking. Put that in and voters will show appreciation for your thoroughness.)
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 0:28
  • 12
    I see that the low quality review queue is consistently inundated Check out the close votes queue.
    – Andrew
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 0:29
  • 2
    Haha maybe that's the one I meant! I just know there's one review queue which I don't have access to which always has 10k+ items in it.
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 0:29
  • 3
    @JoshCaswell I understand why you'd not want people just closing questions all the time to gain rep, but I feel like that wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem as people posting crappy answers to crappy questions because there's no good feeling of "I helped someone!" associated with closing a question. I guess even better than awarding rep for something like that would be to make the bar lower or to make it based solely on good moderation rather than rep from answers.
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 0:31
  • 4
    Also, I agree with you about late answers being useful, but I'm dubious as to whether they are common enough to actually help someone reach enough rep to unlock privileges. Although perhaps I've been looking in the wrong places.
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 0:32
  • 17
    @JoshCaswell Are you saying that rep hunters have their "skin in the game" and would be better at using advanced moderation tools? Nobody would close questions to try to get reputation because that system highly prevents anyone from abusing it and it's much easier to just answer simple typo questions.
    – Anonymous
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 0:44
  • 10
    I haven't thought about this nearly enough to have much of an opinion on it either way, but I'll note this: when I nominated myself for the mod election last March, I don't think I said a single thing about asking/answering questions. That simply wasn't relevant. I did... fairly well in that election.
    – Andrew Barber Mod
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 1:00
  • 3
    @Anonymous, that's not what I said. If I proposed that "no drunk person is a suitable driver" would you then conclude "all sober persons are suitable drivers"?
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 2:18
  • @eddie_cat: Closing-as-duplicate is very helpful. Closing-as-crap not so much, but it means the asker is dissuaded from asking crap in the future.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 2:41
  • If you do continue to contribute to the community you could become respected enough to review low-quality posts and suggested edits. All you need to do is suggest 555 more edits to posts. That's easy work my friend. (successful suggestions that is) Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 2:56
  • 7
    @ChiefTwoPencils Sadly, that doesn't work once you have hit 2000, which means it'll never be a way to be able to help with the close queue, no matter how much (quasi-)moderation you do. Which is too bad - I'd love to help with that queue, though in the meantime, I'm glad to finally be able to help with the two queues you mentioned (which, editing definitely helped get there a lot faster than I would have without it.)
    – neminem
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 15:11
  • 9
    Note: I do not advocate for low-rep moderation activities (flagging, etc.) giving rep, that would be silly. I much preferred a suggestion I saw a few weeks ago, wherein people who have contributed a metric frackton of good flags and good edits, and very few bad ones, are given an alternate route to the "helping with the vote to close queue" train.
    – neminem
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 15:12
  • 6
    @JoshCaswell all drunk drivers are dangerous, but not all people with low rep who want to moderate would make poor moderators or act as meta police.
    – szxk
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 17:56
  • 4
    Don't forget, you can gain plenty of rep by asking good questions, not merely by providing answers
    – Dexygen
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 20:56
  • 1
    This question could be improved, though edits are locked. Title -> "Should moderation tools given to people with a history of good moderation?"; Tags -> feature-request. Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 22:00

4 Answers 4

49

You say that moderation tools are only given to users on the basis of reputation. That may be true, but we also "moderate" those tools in many ways.

  1. If a user has a history of bad moderator flagging, their flags get lower priority in the moderator queue, and eventually don't get shown to moderators at all.

  2. If a user has a poor record of reviewing posts, they are given a time out.

  3. In general, if a user has a good record of using moderation actions such as flags, we give them more to use.

Diamond moderators are elected by the community. There is no significant reputation barrier, although the ones that succeed in getting elected on Stack Overflow generally have at least 10K of reputation.

As to getting high rep, there's a significant void on Stack Overflow for users that have the capability and desire to answer questions thoroughly, accurately and completely. Those kinds of answers always win against the correct, but average answers over the long haul.

Sure, you can try and compete for the softball questions along with everyone else, but folks with good programming knowledge who know how to communicate it will always be in demand, and the competition in that arena is almost non-existent (you'll be competing with a relatively small number of high-reputation users who aren't always here).

Finally, you can get 2/3 of the way there by simply reviewing suggested edits. At 3000 rep, you'll be mostly functional from a community moderation perspective; you'll have full editing privileges, cast close votes and perform most review tasks.

14
  • 9
    Now I finally know why I have a 100 flags per day. Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 4:03
  • 24
    "Those kinds of answers always win against the correct, but average answers over the long haul." That is an interesting claim. Is there any concrete evidence for it? I agree that more thorough answers will win over average answers when they go head-to-head on the same question, but because basic questions are far more common, it seems that giving average answers to frequent questions can generate more total rep over time.
    – BrenBarn
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 4:50
  • 4
    @BrenBarn: Look at Eric Lippert's account.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 4:50
  • 7
    @RobertHarvey: Impressive, yes, but my question is whether there is concrete data demonstrating that this is a consistent pattern, not just examples of people who have lots of rep with relatively few answers. For instance, the two users just above and below Eric Lippert in total rep (here and here) have far lower average rep per answer. Not saying that's good or bad, just wondering if anyone has tried to assess your claim systematically (for instance using data.stackexchange.com).
    – BrenBarn
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 4:57
  • 4
    @BrenBarn: Jonathan Leffler has been a member for six years. He averages about 56 rep per question. Pascal Thivent averages almost 60 rep per answer, compared to Eric's 100. I average only about 25 rep per answer, but I've still managed to break 100K reputation over the last five years. Eddie Cat, the OP of this question, has been here 1 year and 10 months, but has only answered 39 questions. He averages 60 rep per answer, same as Pascal.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 5:04
  • @Robert Harvey: Holy crap, I have nearly as much on average as Pascal Thivent. And if you don't count deleted answers (the count includes deleted answers when viewing as mod), I have an even higher average - 73 rep per answer.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 5:09
  • 6
    I made some quick graphs based on this data query: #1 / #2 / #3 . It does appear that higher-rep users have higher rep-per-answer than lower-rep users, although Eric Lippert is at the top end for his rep range. Still unclear whether rep farmers lose the rep race, or just get bored and stop trying.
    – BrenBarn
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 6:08
  • @RobertHarvey, to your first numbered point, isn't that a little passive aggressive? Is there any way for a user to confirm if their flags are actually getting attention?
    – wnnmaw
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 15:29
  • 3
    @wnnmaw: See meta.stackexchange.com/q/173878
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 15:42
  • Flags are not suppressed anymore. This was the way it used to work for years, but it has now changed.
    – gparyani
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 16:10
  • @BrenBarn You might want to re-run your numbers without the repcap. Many of the top users hit the repcap more days than not. Jon Skeet looks terrible with such a low rep/answer ratio, but he gets ~8 upvotes per answer.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 23:11
  • @Mysticial: Earned rep is the only thing that counts, if your question is about earning rep to get access to the cool tools.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 23:12
  • @RobertHarvey I was mainly suggesting that the "upward trend" of high-rep users getting more rep/answer would be even stronger without the repcap. As in: higher-rep users give better answers.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 23:21
  • @Mysticial: Yeah, I was wondering about that, among other things. I just grabbed the first query I found on Data SE that was a good approximation.
    – BrenBarn
    Commented Aug 9, 2014 at 1:34
30

In my experience, most powerful moderation tool is given at really modest rep 5: participate in meta. This tool (if used wisely) allows one to even overrule decisions of diamond moderators and change the way how Stack Overflow operates - what can be more powerful than that?

Second most powerful tool is given at modest rep 15: flagging. This tool (again, if used wisely) allows one to utilize all the power of higher rep users (through review queues) and diamond moderators. This tool is, again, as powerful as it gets, only meta participation gives more power.

For users with "a history of good moderation", ie for those understanding how things work, power given by above two tools is limited only by how good their understanding is.


As for the "tools" given as one goes up the reputation ladder, my experience so far (5K at SO, 16K at another SE site) has been that compared to two mentioned above these are mere convenience.

Giving me these tools, system kind of tells me, "okay, we see you invest time into providing well rated content, great. But please please also invest some effort into keeping site clean - and by the way, here are some time savers so that you can do so without being too much distracted from contributing content".

As much as I appreciate convenience of higher rep tools, I find that meta participation and flagging still give me much much more "moderation power".

If I was mostly interested in moderating the site, I'd rather focus on better understanding how to use meta and flags than on getting rep to access more convenience tools... oh wait it seems that's just the way I already do.

2
  • 13
    Flagging and Meta are indeed the most powerful. Full editing privileges is good too. Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 10:37
  • @InfiniteRecursion yeah, editing along with commenting and voting are quite helpful complementary tools for one interested in moderating the site. I did not mention these in the answer only because these aren't primarily for moderation, strictly speaking
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 10:43
15

My gut reaction to this proposal is that it would split0 the community into two parts, one that is interested in moderation and community involvement, and one which, you know, actually asks and answers questions. The more disconnected these parts of the community become, the worse the situation will be. One of the goals of our current moderation system is for the community to moderate itself. It's completely contrary to this goal to institute a system whereby half of the users moderate a community they aren't really part of anymore.

I agree with your sentiment that

It shouldn't be the case that rep-farming users who repeatedly answer duplicate/bad questions are given access to moderation tools

But this is a separate issue. I however absolutely disagree with the idea that

The ability to answer questions is not really related to the ability to moderate the site.

I'd argue that it really just doesn't make sense to try and moderate a site that you don't participate in; in order to be a good moderator, you should be intimately familiar with the experience of being a user of the site. That's the point of avoiding a moderator/user distinction, because the success of the moderation strategy is conditional on the fact that the moderators are users as well.

Even if we have some trouble measuring the ability to answer questions, as evidenced by "rep-farming users who repeatedly answer duplicate/bad questions", that doesn't mean we should abandon our entire philosophy of moderation.


0: or further split

12
  • 5
    Do you really think there would be a lot of users who would only moderate? I'm not saying that the users who can't gain enough rep (properly) to earn moderation privileges never use the site for what it's intended for. I use SO all the time for learning, read tons of questions doing my job, ask occasionally, and answer when I can. It's not so much about separating two types of users as it is about allowing people who want to be active to be so without having to jump giant hoops. I'm mostly concerned about lessening the restrictions for people who want to help.
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 2:46
  • 5
    And I think many would agree that in the past it was much easier to gain rep answering (or asking!) questions many people would know the answer to because they simply hadn't been asked yet. There's nothing wrong with this, it's natural for a site like SO, but users who have just joined are at quite a large disadvantage when it comes to gaining rep/privileges.
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 2:48
  • 2
    @eddie_cat I think that it should definitely be a concern. Worse, however, would be (indirectly) creating a sense that "moderation is for moderation-users" among the Q&A-users. I agree that there are "balance" issues with reputation but I think that's a separate problem and should be addressed separately; the fundamental premise that moderation should be linked to asking and answering is still correct.
    – lily
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 2:54
  • 4
    But who would want to just be a moderation-user? The reason (I presume) that people want to help moderate and clean up SO is because they use the site and think it's valuable. Why would someone come to SO to gain points just by moderating?
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 3:00
  • 1
    @eddie_cat I think there are many plausible reasons people might want to just be moderation-users, including the very simple drive to gain points. Why they do it notwithstanding, I'm just worried they'd be really bad at it.
    – lily
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 3:03
  • 2
    I'm not proposing to just give every new user all privileges... only to find a way to consider moderation contributions more "valuable" in terms of rep (or whatever metric we could use, if it's too much to ask for rep points for these sorts of things). I am sure we could find a way to ensure that people who are moderating poorly face repercussions, we already have audit systems & bans for that sort of thing. Perhaps after x suggested edit approvals make them automatic. Or after y successful reviews/non-review audit failures open up another queue, or something like that. No rep even needed.
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 3:05
  • 1
    @eddie_cat And who moderates the moderators? Your suggestion could easily lead to a feedback loop in modrep very similar to the ask-bad-question-answer-bad-question feedback loop in normal rep, except more dangerous since it would be invisible to the everyday user.
    – lily
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 3:09
  • 3
    I don't really think so...if there was some threshold for privileges, not displayed as a badge of honor like regular rep is, and if the people who already had gained the privilege were the ones moderating the pre-privilege people (just like now!) I'm not really sure what the difference would be. It's possible for high rep users to abuse their moderation privileges as well, is that a big issue here? What checks do we have in place for those users?
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 3:31
  • @eddie_cat "the people who already had gained the privilege were the ones moderating the pre-privilege people (just like now!)" No, that's emphatically not true. The community moderates the pre-privilege people, and to as much of a degree as possible the post-privilege people. The only way we're able to keep up with the duplicates and bad answers is flagging and downvoting, both of which are community actions. If the only people who did any moderation were high-rep, then we'd already have lost. (cont.)
    – lily
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 3:36
  • (cont.) The current system works only because everyone moderates everyone. It would be a mistake to abandon that in favor of a more hierarchical system.
    – lily
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 3:37
  • 1
    But how does giving moderation privilege to people who moderate prevent anyone else from downvoting or flagging? I'm mainly talking about lowering the bar for privileges that most active users don't already have.
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 3:46
  • 1
    @eddie_cat It's hard to moderate moderation actions. Currently this isn't a huge problem because there's little reason to game moderation. However, adding a new modrep system would inevitably incentivize gaming of the new system, and require more moderation of that system, ad infinitum. In the end, the "flat" layout with the community moderating itself just makes more sense than a hierarchical system of tiered moderation. Remember, SO is a Q&A site at heart.
    – lily
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 3:49
11

This should certainly be implemented or at least some other sort of reputation that allows helpful users to help even more.

I've seen this proposed many times and it seems to always face mixed reactions. I've never actually seen a substantial argument against this proposal, so here are some reasons that have been given:

We want the people with experience with the site to have tools.

People who find simple typos are not experienced with the site. Your knowledge on a subject and willingness to answer bad questions do not show how well you can judge the quality of a post.

People will just hunt to close questions.

That's not very different from now. People already build queries to try to submit tons of flags and get badges for their helpfulness. Plus, at a rate of +15 for acceptance, +10 reputation for upvotes, and -2 reputation for downvotes, it's much easier to get reputation by answering questions.

The current system works fine.

Well, yes, it does, but many bad questions are left open. Plus, users who help see no reward. Just because something is working doesn't mean it can't be better.

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .