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Preamble

On Stack Overflow reputation is used as a very rough measurement of how much the site trusts you. Reputation is useful and needed to some extent (or do you want every anonymous user running around with full privileges?) and on the other side of the medal it also brings a lot of problems.

Right now you can gain and lose reputation in many different ways and exactly here lies a problem. You gain the same reputation for moderation and contribution and with that you also unlock privileges.

So we give moderation privileges to someone who might contribute a lot and posts a lot of useful stuff, but he does not have any experience in moderating the site. So we are mixing moderation and contribution reputation together even though they are two different things.


Reputation system 2.0

We should split and disconnect moderation and contribution action and have two different reputation scores. So you will have moderation reputation and contribution reputation.

Moderation reputation will indicate how useful your moderation actions are and how much the site trusts your moderation.

Contribution reputation will indicate how useful your contribution is to other users and how much the site trusts you about your knowledge.

So why should we have two reputation scores and what does it solve? Why should it be better than the current system?

Splitting the reputation into moderation and contribution definitely won't solve the overall problem with having reputation, but I think it is a less harmful choice. Right now we are throwing moderation and contribution into the same jar, which makes it harder to make changes to the system. Splitting those two will make the system more flexible and easier to make changes to it.

Advantages

  • More flexibility to define requirements for privileges
  • Privileges can be more specific for moderation or contribution
  • Users need to do more moderation or contribution to unlock moderation/contribution privileges and get more confident how they should use them correctly
  • Changes to moderation or contribution reputation/privileges can be made easier, since it doesn't affect the other one
  • People will now get specifically rewarded for moderating the site with reputation and privileges, and it won't change their contribution reputation or privileges

Concerns

  • Users now want to play two RPG's (role-playing-game) and earn their points
  • If we have moderation reputation and someone does some editing, why should he then know better how the moderation queues work rather than if he just contributes and gets his reputation to unlock the queue privilege?
  • How should the migration of the old reputation work, without destroying the reputation of the current users?
  • Two reputation scores = Double the reputation problem?

Example scenario

Reputation

As an example editing or accepting would increase your moderation reputation, while writing a good answer or question will increase your contribution reputation.

Since in the current system you get very little reputation for editing or accepting we would of course need to redefine for what and how much reputation you get for specific actions.

Privileges

As an example for the review queues you may need a lot moderation reputation and just a bit contribution reputation, while for the ads free privilege you may just need some contribution reputation to unlock it.

Migration of old Reputation

I think transferring the current reputation into two different reputation scores will be very complex and need to be very well thought out. We would need to define what parameters count as moderation and which as contribution score. We would need to define how much reputation each parameter is worth in the new reputation system.


This question is a discussion, not a feature-request and should be a discussion about the basic concept of having two different reputation scores. About the advantages and concerns of such a reputation system. I want to gather different opinions and ideas on this.

Why aren't moderation tools given to people with a history of good moderation? Is a very similar question. And while I talk about the same thing here, I have an idea of how this could be managed with the idea of having two reputation scores. So this question might bring some fresh air into the same thing as the linked question, but it should go further and be a discussion about dis-/advantages of the concept of two reputation scores.

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  • 20
    I'm always open to ideas for change (however unlikely they are to be actually implemented) and encouraging the moderation aspect (after all it's part of being a good citizen), but I'm still unclear what problem this would solve? It doesn't seem like we have a lot of high-reputation users who aren't competent to moderate (and those who are, can simply abstain). There's been talk about a "citizenship score" that includes more than just reputation, but that would unify contribution and moderation scores, not separate them
    – Pekka
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 11:45
  • 7
    Just do away with the current system entirely and appoint Jon Skeet as the Almighty Rep Distributor. Only his few faithful followers are worthy of such a call for moderating/contributing anyway.
    – Sam
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 11:57
  • 22
    @Pekka웃 It will solve a few things. For example, I am not a very good contributor to the site, but I moderate it well. Flags, Reviews, Edits, etc.. If moderation rep is there, Users who moderate will be able to moderate it even more. Right now, Moderation doesn't have any advantages. Even If a user moderates SO a lot, he will still not get privileges. This method will solve it. Basically, moderation right now is a heck of waste to the user. You don't get any privileges for moderating, but you get rep for contributing. I don't think SO will be able to stand without moder. seeing the crap coming Commented May 14, 2016 at 12:06
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    Can I support the Jon Skeet suggestion? I can pay by direct debit. Commented May 14, 2016 at 12:22
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    Do we get Mod reputation for downvoting homework vamps and 20k+ repPersonalServicesWorkers? Commented May 14, 2016 at 12:24
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    If moderation rep becomes a thing, will that need its own moderation, as well? With its own review queues, and voting procedures? I mean, how else could one lose moderation rep and the privileges granted thereby, other than a diamond mod revoking it? As you said, "a mod could just take away their rep", but is that another responsibility they should be tasked with? Shouldn't that be - at least partly - a community responsibility, just like the regular moderation?
    – Mike M.
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 12:44
  • 2
    @MikeM. That is a thing we can discuss about. What I have in mind right now is that you can always flag a user when you see weird moderation patterns, as you also do right now just that the mods would now reverse mod rep. How much and how the community can moderate moderation is an open question right now, since we already have problems with robo-reviewers and the community can't moderate/handle those by their own, I hope that with that new system it would be easier to implement something to moderate the moderation.
    – Rizier123
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 12:51
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    I generally agree, but IMHO it's a way too big change to actually get implemented. Commented May 14, 2016 at 14:40
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    Id be against a split of the "old" reputation. You could extrapolate the new moderation reputation out of the current reputation without depleting it. Of course that wouldn't matter for new users. To be clear, the old reputation would be equal to the new contribution reputation.
    – Knu
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 14:50
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    I'm with @Gothdo. In principle I can't disagree with anything you've said, and your proposal seems like the obvious fix from an abstract standpoint. I'm not sure I can picture it in practice, though, both as a system in its own right and as a system that's been migrated-to with 5.5million existing users. Sadly. However I fully support further discussion on this point and evolution of the proposed idea. In particular, I'd love to see some way of making crappy robo-reviewers get tae f@ck. Commented May 14, 2016 at 14:57
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't think we should just stop discussing and thinking about the idea, just because we think it won't get implemented. Stack Overflow also wasn't as it is right now with one implementation from the start. Stack Overflow started with something somewhere and evolved. I can see the same thing for this idea, that we need to start somewhere and always a bit more and a bit better.
    – Rizier123
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 15:08
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    @Laurel: That's precisely what was suggested, isn't it? Commented May 14, 2016 at 15:23
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    @Laurel: Well, I suppose, but technically speaking the answer "zero" is valid answer to "We would need to define how much reputation each parameter is worth in the new reputation system." ;) But, more importantly, the idea is indeed to have a new score wholly affected by moderation actions. FWIW I think I support starting from scratch with the moderation stuff. Ish.. Commented May 14, 2016 at 15:32
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    Possible duplicate of Why aren't moderation tools given to people with a history of good moderation?
    – gnat
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 16:31
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    I retracted dupe vote but honestly, your explanation is not very convincing. Consider re-checking that question and its answers more thoroughly, maybe you will change your mind (note as an asker with 50+ rep you can unilaterally dupe-close your question). Another discussion you might find related (at MSE) is Replace accept rate with citizenship level by Jeff Atwood
    – gnat
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 17:07

4 Answers 4

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While I do think the moderation tools need some improvement, I don't believe this is the correct way to solve the problem.

This might surprise you as I (like Michael) would have a high moderation score from this new reputation program. However, let's go back to the start: what was (and is!) the purpose of Stack Overflow? From the about page:

Stack Exchange is a network of 150+ Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the preeminent site for programmers to find, ask, and answer questions about software development. Founded in 2008 by Joel Spolsky and Jeff Atwood, the company was built on the premise that serving the developer community at large would lead to a better, smarter Internet.

Note here that nothing about moderation is mentioned. That's not to say moderation isn't important though -- many times has it been mentioned how important moderation is to the success of Stack Exchange. But the fundamental actions on Stack Exchange are asking and answering; everything else comes along for the ride.

Your proposal would elevate moderation to the same level as asking and answering. But you can't put the cart before the horse: asking and answering must occur in order for moderation to occur.

Similarly, the whole premise of moderation is grounded in the fundamentals of asking and answering. If a person starts to solely be involved in moderation tasks and meta-work, they start to lose touch with the actuality of a site (one reason being they just keep looking at the worst posts all day long). That's not good for the long-term health of a site.

Furthermore, this system just seems complicated to me. While I do think we need some changes in moderation, let's look towards improving the tools we already have -- not changing the entire system.

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  • I agree with your point about the system being complicated. But I do not agree the thing about SE is meant for asking and answering. I agree that it's SE's main goal, but without moderation, that will not be achieved. There is so much crap in SO these days, and if moderation doesn't happen, it'll be no better than other websites. Commented May 14, 2016 at 15:59
  • For such a huge and growing site like Stack Overflow moderation needs to scale with the growth of the site. Asking and answering is linear it is always the same, while moderation grows with the site, so it needs more attention. And right now moderation tools aren't made for the size of SO, so moderation reputation would give us a foundation and flexibility to get moderation as much attention as needed to moderate SO at such a huge size.
    – Rizier123
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 16:00
  • But we already know that very few people with moderation privileges even use them, @Rizier123. If the number of people who have those privileges is increased, will we really see a large increase in moderation activity?
    – hichris123
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 16:04
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    Well for one it will create a way to moderate the site without needing to just only contribute to the site to get moderation privileges. And second we can give specific privileges to those who want and know how to moderate. So we won't give out moderation tools to someone who doesn't know how to use them, which we do right now and we see what we get from it, robo-reviewers.
    – Rizier123
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 16:08
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    You quoted the "about" page, that indeed doesn't mention moderation. But there is the review page that says Stack Overflow is moderated by you., which means it's really an integral part of the system.
    – Tunaki
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 16:26
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    @Tunaki Sure, but you need questions and answers to moderate. The point I'm trying to make is answering and asking have to come before moderation -- moderation is polishing up the content; asking and answering actually creates the content.
    – hichris123
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 17:19
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I would have a relatively high "moderation score" from editing posts (and eventually I will climb out of the review queue), but a low "contribution score" mostly derived from answering really old questions with low traffic. Your system might recognize that and give me better moderation tools without FGITWing my way to 10k.

Even so, I still think that your system would be more trouble than benefit:

  • Two privilege tracks
  • More complicated user cards
    • Split badge display on user cards?
  • Communicating to everyone that this is happening
    • Communicating that it is important
  • Splitting existing reputation

Whereas the problem you are trying to solve (as Pekka points out) is unclear. We've all seen poor moderation: bad edits, bad flags, bad reviews; but the systems in place to deal with them function pretty well in a broad sense.

In summary: As someone who would probably benefit from your hypothetical system, I am still against it.

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    Would require an awful lot of work to get the system underway, and even more to maintain it, maybe? IMHO, the current system is good and shouldn't necessarily be changed, as you have pointed out in your post. Leave aside this fact :). Commented May 14, 2016 at 15:30
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    I would have a relatively high "moderation score" from editing posts Yeah, because you edited 240 posts. It's nothing in comparison to 42k posts edited by Peter Mortensen. Commented May 14, 2016 at 15:35
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    @Gothdo: I'm not saying I'm a superstar, just that my moderation score would be high relative to my contribution score. And congratulations to Peter for doing God's work. Commented May 14, 2016 at 15:37
  • Well changes always bring potential risks, but they also bring the chance to change something and make something better. And I don't think it would be complicated to explain the new rep to everyone, just explaining to a new user how they should ask a question on SO is already a lot harder than explaining this. As for splitting the current reputation I think that we would find a way how we can do it.
    – Rizier123
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 15:42
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No.

There are lots of reasons to dislike this proposal, but let's look at this part specifically:

Contribution reputation will indicate how useful your contribution is to other users and how much the site trusts you about your knowledge

What does that mean, exactly? The first part, we already have: all posts are judged in isolation, on their own merits, through the voting system. We already have a reasonably good mechanism for providing this indication. (The exception being that at least initially, the questions and answers that get the most up-votes are typically the worst…but over time, genuine usefulness overtakes this effect.)

And who cares "how much the site trusts you about your knowledge"? The site isn't who's using your answers, so the only reason the "site" would care at all is with respect to moderation. I.e. technical knowledge is required to effectively accomplish many of the moderation tasks users are able to perform.

If we were to split reputation into these two pieces, we'd actually wind up with three different categories of privileges: those that depend on moderation reputation, those that depend on contribution reputation, and those that depend on both. And of course, we'd have to figure out how to balance the two reputation scores for that combined-reputation category. Does one weight more heavily than the other? Is the weighting dependent on which of the scores is higher for a specific user? How do we rectify weighting/balance issues going forward, now that we have two different scores to deal with?


In other words: for one of the two categories of reputation proposed here, neither of the stated functions of that category of reputation are useful. One function is already provided for (i.e. voting on posts), in a much more effective manner, and the other function doesn't do anything useful if you divorce a person's technical skills from their moderation privileges (i.e. the reputation category is self-defeating).

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Great post, man! A lot of explanation, I love the advantages/disadvantages breakup as well.

Speaking about the idea... Not quite good. SO is for asking and answering questions, users don't really have to improve other posts, they don't really have to moderate the site.

And having two different reputations is already bizarre, because the word reputation doesn't even have a plural form, does it?

What's more, it's hard to earn reputation. I've been here for quite a while now and I've got a bit of rep. I started StackOverflowing when the standards here were very high already and it was difficult to earn that rep. It will be even more difficult to earn two reputations at the same time.

I answer questions and ask my own because I wanna learn programming better. So I do that and earn rep not even because I wanna earn it so much. Now answer me: why would you like to earn that second type of reputation?? Something like I enjoy editing posts and I do that a lot, so I'm earning a ton of rep, my edits are so great that I could earn a hundred for a single edit. This is kinda ridiculous.

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    Didn't expect to get a downvote that fast.
    – ForceBru
    Commented May 14, 2016 at 18:44
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    Hopefully everyone actually read the entirety of your post before voting, but starting off with commentary like "Great post, man! ..." definitely makes it look like it's not going to be a real answer.
    – jscs
    Commented May 16, 2016 at 0:51
  • @JoshCaswell, I was hoping that everyone'd read all of my post... Also, the OP is not bad at all, however, the opposite can be said about the idea itself.
    – ForceBru
    Commented May 16, 2016 at 11:59

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