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Recently, I asked a question on Stack Overflow about the implementation details of Last-Level Cache found in today's typical mainstream GPUs made by Intel, AMD, and Nvidia - "Which GPU architectures have Persistent Last-Level Cache Across Kernel Launches?" - Knowing the answer would be helpful for optimizing cache temporal locality of GPU kernels. In the question, I explained my motivation, cited existing answers and references (and showed they were all unclear), and finally asked my question.

The question remained unanswered for a while. Several weeks later, Robert Crovella - an experienced GPGPU developer at Nvidia - helpfully answered the question and even demonstrated it with some example code using hardware performance counters. Although it's specific to Nvidia GPUs only, but I considered it good enough and accepted the answer. So far, so good. Several months later, answer expert on SO, Greg Smith, also answered this question with some additional information. Since this new answer bumped the question back to the SO home page, the question attracted renewed attention... What happened next is a truly an O. Henry-style ending, it was soon closed after being voted as "off-topic", because "This question is not about programming or software development."

Since I've already received a satisfactory answer, I'm not particularly concerned about reopening it. But I find this response is baffling and confusing. Although I'm not active on Stack Overflow (and more active on EE.SE), I've been reading and writing on various Stack Exchange sites for over a decade, and I personally I believe I'm pretty familiar with the norms here, and I know that some questions (including some of my own) are not the best fits for Stack Overflow. But of all possible questions that can be considered off-topic, the least likely one would be a micro-optimization question. It comes as bizarre to me: On Stack Overflow, there are pages after pages of questions on the implementation details of mainstream CPUs. Some random examples include:

I've personally learned a lot about CPU micro-architectures just by reading the related tags and sorting them by upvotes, and quite a few SO personalities are known for answering questions based on their extreme knowledge on hardware implementation details.

In my opinion, my question is fundamentally not different from the hundreds, if not thousands, of questions on hardware and micro-optimization questions (if I must find a difference, I'd say that it's about GPUs, so it's a niche even more arcane than CPU optimizations). A few other observers also pointed it out in the comment section, but they have been removed after a further review found the question remains an off-topic one.

It suggests a few possibilities:

  1. My question was fundamentally on topic, but it was just poorly worded. It's possibly on topic if the question can be rephrased to ask "Do Mainstream GPU architectures (Intel, AMD, Nvidia) have Persistent Last-Level Cache Across Kernel Launches?" instead of "Which GPU architectures" have them.

  2. Only CPU performance characteristics are considered legitimate, not GPUs, because SO has many CPU gurus but few GPU gurus - If one wants to learn how Intel Skylake works, SO is the right place. But not if you want to learn about AMD GCN or Nvidia Ampere.

  3. All hardware performance characteristics questions are arguably off-topic, but SO has many influential CPU gurus, so they get a pass.

I hope the answer is as simple as No. 1. Otherwise I would consider this a rather strange and alarming situation.

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    I don't really see it hitting any of the points in the op-topic help page the closure reason links to. This looks more like a hardware question than a programming question... I'm not sure how wording it differently would change that. The fact that there are older questions on this subject on SO isn't necessarily a indication they are on-topic. They have relatively low view counts, and rules have changed over the years.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 31 at 22:18
  • @Cerbrus Unfortunately, your comment suggests the reason is No. 3 (realpolitik) - all questions about hardware details are arguably off-topic, but many (including experts) find them interesting, so they get a pass anyway. What exactly is allowed depends on current community interests. This is why a question like Which cache mapping technique is used in intel core i7 processor? can be answered with 47 votes even without a software-based motivation... Well, I have no disagreements if it's acknowledge by everyone to be the official unwritten SO rule, and I would follow it in the future too... Commented Aug 31 at 22:36
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    No, they're not "getting a pass". That question you mention is 6.5 years old. As I mentioned, rusel have evolved over time. Those 47 votes really aren't many.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 31 at 22:49
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    @Cerbrus I consider "legacy questions" to be those from 2010s (e.g. things like: what books to read, what is your advise on programming X). But I feel that 2017 is still recent to me... Furthermore, I've just checked the rules from 2017 and I didn't notice any obvious differences, including the "no hardware unless it's about programming" rule - which was identical to today's rule. Sn at least on paper, the rules remain the same, but many questions received de facto acceptable anyway, at least at that time. Commented Aug 31 at 22:56
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    "but many questions received de facto acceptable anyway" just because a question isn't closed doesn't make them "de facto acceptable". It can also mean that the majority of users who have seen them don't care enough to close-vote. 5 years is a lot in programming. And no, that rule hasn't changed, so those questions were basically also off-topic.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 31 at 23:34
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    @Cerbrus I did this exactly in response to your criticism that the example questions I originally listed were too old, so I worked harder to find newer questions that would better satisfy your demand. Unfortunately, this is perceived as "disengenous." I'd like to point out that, due to limitation of SO's Web front-end, I'm unable to find questions that are both scored and recent at the same time, but I'm pretty sure these questions are still numerous, there are at least 100 of them from the recent 3 years. I'm willing to download the SO metadata and run a SQL query if you insist. Commented Aug 31 at 23:49
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    Seems like the subject matter is "unique to software development" to me (I find it hard to see how its not). Certainly not all questions about hardware are on-topic, but cache effects, numas, and other CPU architectural decisions should definitely be allowed; they directly affect the software executing and are very relevant for target platform optimizations.
    – kmdreko
    Commented Sep 1 at 0:46
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    The title of your question "Which GPU architectures have Persistent Last-Level Cache Across Kernel Launches?" indicates that it's off-topic, as it falls under "Questions asking us to recommend or find a book, tool, software library, tutorial or other off-site resource are off-topic for Stack Overflow". Just based on that title, you're effectively asking an open-ended shopping question.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Sep 1 at 1:03
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    While the actual text may or may not indicate that it really asks that question (I would need to read it in detail to check), I note that at the end it asks "Does anyone have any information about any of the GPUs/architectures below?" and lists 10 GPUs/GPU architectures, which is way too broad.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Sep 1 at 1:03
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    @Makyen Asking about the technical characteristics of mainstream products is not necessarily an act of asking buying advise. In the same sense that a question like "Which countries are tropical?" is obviously an attempt to learn the definition of "tropical", rather than an inquiry of immigration. So according to your interpretation, the original question just had a wording issue, but it can be reworded to better highlight its focus. If so, this confirms my original expectation - in contrary to Cerbrus's view that hardware implemantation details are always off-topic. Commented Sep 1 at 1:39
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    @比尔盖子 Your question does, at least, have wording and scope issues. I provided two interpretations of your question which indicate it's off-topic, so two other potential reasons for the close-votes. I did not argue for or against any other reason why your question would be off-topic. It's often more productive to add additional viewpoints, rather than to pile-on and state if I do or don't have an opinion on something that's already been stated. Comments are, inherently, relatively short, which means that they are rarely comprehensive. Please don't make assumptions about things I didn't say.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Sep 1 at 3:44
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    And there is point that StackOverflow community standards change. For example, a question that was considered on on-topic 8 years ago can be considered as off-topic now. This is not either alarming or surprising ... just like it is not alarming or surprising for community attitudes to change rapidly in the real world.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Sep 1 at 8:24
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    And I think that the (short) answer to your question is: "Hardware performance characteristics questions are arguably off-topic, and SO was less strict about this 8 years ago than they are now."
    – Stephen C
    Commented Sep 1 at 8:28
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    Asking about hardware implementation details is off-topic, but asking about programming related problem and question that may be explained or solved by knowing hardware implementation details would be on topic. So if you could edit the question show what specific programming problem you are trying to solve with this question it would be easier to keep it open.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 1 at 9:06
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    While I don't think hardware questions are a great fit for the site, I'd take a thousand in-depth hardware questions over all the low quality visual studio code questions we're getting daily. The editor questions are deemed on topic (in general - lots of them are closeworthy for some reason or another) because it's a "software tool commonly used by programmers", but IMO the "software" part feels arbitrary and I don't see why hardware should not be included.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Sep 3 at 9:51

1 Answer 1

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Look for reasons to rule questions in rather than out.

Just like any grey area, it really depends on where the burden of proof lies. We should be closing questions when they are not just off-topic but beyond easy salvaging. Goodness knows we have plenty of those to choose from.

In this particular case, hardware for hardware's sake may be off-topic but glancing over that question I'm frankly struggling to get a context other than programming where it would make sense, although I'm not a hardware person so take that with a grain of salt. IDK, I generally try to be a little reluctant to close questions outside my areas of expertise, but maybe that's just me.

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    re: "beyond easy salvaging". outside of this specific discussion's context, not sure if I'm behind this wording. if something should be closed now, ideally (barring personal preference to work around system quirks like not being able to dup-vote after needs-details-voting), vote to close it now.
    – starball
    Commented Sep 3 at 21:25
  • @starball yeah, but I generally try to give OP a little time to address feedback in the comments before I VTC though. Especially if it's borderline and I'm hefting Mjolnir while pondering the question. Commented Sep 4 at 12:14
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    The standard philosophy on SO, as I understand it, is that if a question is not appropriate in its current form, it should be put on hold to force it to be fixed before it gathers answers. Delaying putting it on hold is not doing the community a favor, as it often leads to accumulation of a variety of answers that offer different variants of the question or answer older versions of the question. The 'on hold' mechanism already gives OP time to address the feedback, and then the question can be re-opened once those issues have been resolved.
    – D.W.
    Commented Sep 4 at 21:55

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