2

The CC license under which SO posts are made requires attribution.

https://stackoverflow.com/help/licensing

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

As explained at the Creative Commons link, attribution must be given.

However, users' profiles deleted by moderators or staff (without the user asking for said deletion), are anonymized and do not have their names attached to material that remains on the site, erasing their attribution. The placeholder does not provide any attribution, as there is no way to identify the author from it.

How is SO in compliance with this license in these cases?

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    Specifically see Section 3(a)(3) of the license Commented May 13 at 13:55
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    By deleting the account the user effectively asks for the pseudonym (as per Section 3(a)(1)(A)(i)) being used for them to be removed, so that gets removed and replaced with another generic pseudonym for them if you notice (Something like user1234). Commented May 13 at 14:01
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    @AbdulAzizBarkat It's not about deleting the account, but changing the attribution. For example, if user876sd87g6sd8fag7's account was deleted for moderation reasons rather than requesting deletion, the CC license would still require attribution to user876sd87g6sd8fag7. The difference would be that there would be no profile to link to. The question is if SO somehow retains the right to change the user name used to attribute a post without an explicit request from the copyright holder. Commented May 13 at 14:18
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    Though I have no way of validating it, I suspect that any accounts that are deleted for "moderation reasons" didn't actually contribute anything that adhered to the site's ToS, or the user account itself did not, @ThomasOwens . If there were a user that had contributed a large amount to the site before breaking the "rules", more likely the account would get a suspension that would run longer than a life time (there are some users who have their suspension ending in the 2200's, for example).
    – Thom A
    Commented May 13 at 14:27
  • 3
    @ThomasOwens Okay but is there any circumstance, ever, where a user gets deleted against their will but some of their content doesn't get deleted? I didn't think that was a real/possible scenario; the only context in which I've heard about involuntary user deletion is when accounts whose only contributions are spam or other kinds of abuse get "destroyed" and the entirety of their content automatically gets deleted as part of the process. Is there another situation I'm missing?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 13 at 14:30
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    @MarkAmery It doesn't matter if the content is marked as deleted or not. High rep users and moderators can still see it, which means that they receive a license to use it. I'd want to see what happens to the user name on those posts. If it changes to "userXYZ" instead of their selected name, that could be a violation of the license. Moderators do have the ability to "delete user" (as opposed to "destroy user") for violations, even for users that have high reputation and useful content. Commented May 13 at 14:32
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    @ThomasOwens here's an example of a spam post with the user deleted. Commented May 13 at 14:37
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    @MarkAmery, I did check. When a moderator performs the delete user operation, it anonymizes the user name and only deletes negatively scored posts. This means that SO changes the attribution without a request from the user, and any 0 or positively scored posts remain available to anyone under the CC BY-SA license. The negatively scored posts remain available to high rep and mod users under CC BY-SA. The only question is if something in the Terms gives SO the right to do this, since it's not inherent to the CC BY-SA license granted. Commented May 13 at 14:37
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    @AbdulAzizBarkat "This technically doesn't break the license as they are being addressed by a pseudonym" - lol, no. I don't buy that argument and I can't imagine anyone else buying it either. Making up a new name for a person that nobody will recognise as associated with that person and crediting the made-up name with authorship is obviously not actually crediting the person who authored the work. It's all the worse when the made up names are basically just random numbers and therefore difficult to tell apart or to recognise when they recur across multiple posts.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 13 at 14:39
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    @ThomasOwens or we can just edit the duplicate target to ask about moderator deleted users as well and that way we collect all answers related to that in a single question? Commented May 13 at 14:47
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    @AbdulAzizBarkat Considering the age of the question, I would think that the correct course of action would be to update this question to refer to that one and explain why it and the answers are incorrect or incomplete. It's not likely that any correct answer would get traction over the existing incomplete answers. Commented May 13 at 14:54
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    @user876sd87g6sd8fag7 - Suspended users rarely have their profile deleted since that defeats the purpose of their profile being suspended. As for users who violate the rules so aggressively that their profile is deleted, then who cares, those users contributes are likely just spam and almost never legitimate. Commented May 13 at 14:55
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    I've hammered it open so an answer can address "were a moderator or staff deleted the profile and caused anonymization without the consent of the user" as suggested by @ThomasOwens
    – rene
    Commented May 14 at 6:42
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    I've also edited the question to make it explicitly about the scenario that isn't covered by answers on the duplicate. Once this question has an answer we might consider a merge, when the answer turns out to be awesome.
    – rene
    Commented May 14 at 6:49
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    Cross site duplicate: meta.stackexchange.com/q/277440/287976 ?
    – Tensibai
    Commented May 14 at 8:06

3 Answers 3

1

To my understanding, content on SO is dual licensed. From StackOverflow's ToS, with emphasis added:

[Content you provide] is perpetually and irrevocably licensed to Stack Overflow on a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive basis pursuant to Creative Commons licensing terms (CC BY-SA 4.0), and you grant Stack Overflow the perpetual and irrevocable right and license to access, use, process, copy, distribute, export, display and to commercially exploit such Subscriber Content, even if such Subscriber Content has been contributed and subsequently removed by you as reasonably necessary to, for example (without limitation):

  • Provide, maintain, and update the public Network
    [...]

So even if your account is deleted, you gave SO a separate license to display your content as needed for the functioning of the site itself (among other uses).

Though, it's unclear to me how/if other users could make use of the content's CC license (such as copying code from an answer into their work) if they cannot see who to attribute it to.

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    While this is true, deleted answers are still presented to users as having a CC BY-SA license. It would be possible for the company use the second license, which only exists for content posted after approximately 2010-06-09 (link is to my own answer), in order to display deleted content, but not when they state when showing it that it's under CC BY-SA. In my opinion, they would need to prominently indicate that the content wasn't being presented with a CC BY-SA license in order to legitimately use the argument that the alternate license was being used.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 14 at 17:21
  • @Makyen "It would be possible for the company use the second license [...] but not when they state when showing it that it's under CC BY-SA" - I could be wrong, but I don't think stating the content has a CC BY-SA license means that also has to be the license the site is relying on to display the content. A repo's chosen FOSS license is not what the GitHub site itself relies on, for instance. It does however seem a useless declaration when there's no way for third parties to fulfil the terms of the CC license in this scenario (other than trying to dig out the author's name from archives).
    – SirBenet
    Commented May 14 at 18:30
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    By stating that it's under a CC BY-SA license, they are making a representation that the content they are displaying is under that license, when what they are displaying can't be legitimately under that license, due to the lack of attribution. So, while they may be using their second license, which does permit not having attribution, making the representation that what's displayed is under CC BY-SA false. Their making the representation on the page and in the timeline that it's under a CC BY-SA license also strongly implies that that is the license they are using when displaying that content.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 14 at 19:26
  • @Makyen That content really is still irrevocably licensed under a CC license (in addition to SO's exclusive rights being relied on to host the content) to my understanding, just that removal of username makes it awkward for people trying to make use of that license (have to figure out the author to attribute correctly). // "strongly implies that that is the license they are using when displaying that content" - I don't think that's generally the case for sites where content has a public license (GitHub, Newgrounds, etc.), and wouldn't invalidate their exclusive license either way.
    – SirBenet
    Commented May 14 at 20:35
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    No, no it's not. The original content, with attribution, is under CC BY-SA, but in order to obtain a valid license, you have to obtain it from a valid source, not just any source. Obtaining it from a source that isn't validly licensed doesn't grant you a valid license. In order to have a valid license, everyone in the chain from the original, valid license must have had a valid license, which is not the case when there's no attribution in the copy which you're copying.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 14 at 23:07
  • I don't see that "extra license" allowing SE to go on providing a post with the CC BY-SA license (the share button claims this) without violating the attribution requirement. While they are allowed to "distribute" the content, there is no provision to re-license the content to others; the only CC BY-SA license that applies is the original one, which was made with a given pseudonym. Commented May 15 at 9:26
  • @Makyen They do have a valid license; I don't think it's required for the license available to other users to also be what's currently relied on the display content on the site itself, only that the author allowed "Stack Overflow to [...] allow others to". Commercial sites may show CC BY-NC content, and GitHub shows arbitrary licenses, with the sites relying on a separate license rather than necessarily meeting those terms - but possible that I'm missing a distinction. Definitely an issue that it makes it hard for users to continue the CC chain, such as by checking an archive for usernames.
    – SirBenet
    Commented May 15 at 10:42
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    @SirBenet It is required that the displayed content be validly licensed under CC BY-SA in order for someone making a copy to obtain a CC BY-SA license when they copy that content from there. While SE does have a valid license, they are not using it for that content. Without attribution, the CC BY-SA license isn't valid (unless the user has requested removal of attribution). Thus, the displayed content isn't under CC BY-SA, and nobody can get a valid CC BY-SA license by copying that content from that source, at that time.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 15 at 15:43
  • @SirBenet Given that the original content with attribution was licensed under CC BY-SA, anyone can still get a CC BY-SA license if they copy the content from a source that is currently validly licensed under CC BY-SA at the time the copy is made (e.g., they might be able to obtain a CC BY-SA license by making a copy from archive.org from an archive date which still has attribution, and, thus, which still has a valid CC BY-SA license).
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 15 at 15:43
  • @SirBenet If SE was, in fact, relying on the CC BY-SA 4.0 license to display that content without attribution when the author didn't request the attribution to be removed, then SE would not, in fact, have a CC BY-SA 4.0 license, because they would have not complied with the attribution terms in the license, causing the CC BY-SA 4.0 license to automatically terminate, per CC BY-SA 4.0 § 6(a). Note that in CC BY-SA 4.0 the license will be reinstated if the breach in terms has been cured within 30 days (§ 6(b)(1)).
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 15 at 15:43
  • @Makyen "It is required that the displayed content be [...]" - Can a commercial site then not allow reuse of its content under CC BY-NC for instance, or is there a distinction I am missing?
    – SirBenet
    Commented May 15 at 17:15
  • @SirBenet Exactly what you're asking is unclear. The details matter. For example, it's unclear to me if you're asking about a company originally offering a CC BY-NC license on something or if the company took a CC BY-NC licensed work and then modified it (and wasn't using it for commercial purposes). However, it seems that question is well past what's on-topic for this question, and it should be a question on Law or asked of a lawyer.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 15 at 17:34
  • @SirBenet Only the author can publish the content under a new license, unless an existing license allows someone else to do so as well. The "special" license in the SE TOS does not include that. Commented May 15 at 17:34
  • @Makyen "The details matter" - Say a commercial content-sharing site to which the author has granted rights to host/etc. the content, a separate CC BY-NC license, and ability to allow others those rights. \\ "should be a question on Law or asked of a lawyer" - Intended the question to help me understand your belief, which to me doesn't seem consistent with how sites like Github function, but could be a good idea to ask Law.SE if a site can use their exclusive license to display the content despite showing a separate license (the terms of which they aren't necessarily meeting) for reuse.
    – SirBenet
    Commented May 15 at 17:56
  • I don't think this would stand up under UK law, for various reasons. The Red Hand Rule, the confusing nature of the conflicting licences etc. Commented May 29 at 10:10
1

Deletion of user accounts and following the attribution rules of the Creative commons content license are two absolutely independent functions of the site. The content license is not affected by the account deletion. Attribution should work exactly the same for deleted and undeleted user accounts.

Attribution of CC licensed content must contain the creator name given at the time of the content creation. Only exceptions are if the user wants to rename him/herself (gives consent to change attribution to previous works) or if the user renounces attribution in accordance to the CC license. An attribution name change by somebody else for whatever reason would not be valid and in my opinion (I'm not a lawyer, consult one for real advice.) and a violation of the license.

I assume that the company wants to actually use the CC license here and not any other license it might have obtained through the TOS.

Alternatives would be to completely delete all the content with an involuntary deletion of the user or leave the user name as it was but add a little "deleted" note.

Btw. rolling back user name changes by moderators might also be problematic in terms of CC license attribution requirements. SO can surely prevent me from choosing "You all go to hell" as a name but once I choose it that is what must be used under every content for all eternity, I think.

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  • Changing attribution is not an exception. There's no provision for attribution change in CC BY-SA. The only way a mutually-agreed-upon attribution change can work is that a new license is created with the new attribution (a separate, new license for each individual contribution). No, moderators rolling back username changes, as long as there's no new content, is not problematic. It is merely going back to the prior, still existing, irrevocable, license. If there has been additional content contributed under the new username, then, yes, it's problematic, but only for that new content.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 16 at 21:02
  • @Makyen Just went to my very first contribution ever on the platform. It's not signed with the user name I had at this time, instead only my current name is displayed. I thought that is okay, but now it doesn't seem so. By labeling older contributions with newer names, the platform itself doesn't abide by the attribution terms of the CC license. Hopefully the data dumps do it right. Commented May 16 at 21:15
  • @NoDataDumpNoContribution You updated your display name, thus giving SE permission to use the newly supplied pseudonym (because you specifically asked them to by updating it) with all of your existing content.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 16 at 21:20
  • @RyanM I agree, but then SE does not honor the attribution agreement of the CC license anymore as Makyen said above. Maybe they don't have to, but if they want to, they should change the mechanism and only update future contributions. At least in the data dumps this should not be done (won't check them). In the data dumps the names of the authors at the time of the content creation should be given as attribution. And also everyone else in the world should use these names. Commented May 16 at 21:26
  • No, that's not what I said. I said that by requesting a username change, you, effectively, re-offer every single existing contribution that you have made under new licenses that are created at the time you make the username change, or, at least, that's the only way I see the username change, which both parties want, happening that's consistent with the CC BY-SA license, which doesn't allow for attribution change, nor modifications to the license. It would be really beneficial if SE was substantially more clear on how such attribution issues are handled.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 16 at 21:45
  • @Makyen It could happen like this, although it's not overly clear that it's a re-offer. It would also not invalidate the original offer. And there are different versions of CC used. If I made a re-offer, under which version did it do it? The license information on the timeline to my very first post says it's still under the old version of CC but uses the new name. I don't mind really but people then should not use that information for attribution maybe. Commented May 16 at 22:15
  • I don't think there is, or needs to be, a re-offering under a new license. CC BY-SA 2.5 and 3.0 both require "the name of the Original Author (or pseudonym, if applicable) if supplied"; 4.0 requires "identification of the creator(s) of the Licensed Material and any others designated to receive attribution, in any reasonable manner requested by the Licensor (including by pseudonym if designated)". My reading is that the creator/author can by identified by multiple names or pseudonyms, and the licensee can choose among those it has been offered (since receiving the license, probably).
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 16 at 22:27
  • @RyanM You have a point that 2.5 and 3.0 handle it a bit differently. 4.0, however, very explicitly says in §3(a)(1)(A) "retain the following if it is supplied by the Licensor with the Licensed Material". The only time the licensed material is supplied is when it's posted and the license is created. Thus, the only time the attribution can be supplied with the licensed material is when the license is created. There is no provision in 4.0 for for the attribution being supplied at a different time or be changed.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 17 at 1:56
  • On the other hand, 2.5 and 3.0 only talk about "supplied" or "specifies" for different parts of the attribution. Thus, the parties could reasonably agree that a newly supplied/specified attribution be used. However, I expect that the licensee could, if they want, argue that the attribution supplied/specified when the licensed material was supplied should be what's used.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 17 at 1:56
  • @NoDataDumpNoContribution Yes, there's a lot that's not clear, which should be made clear by SE.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 17 at 1:57
  • @Makyen Hmm, good point; I didn't catch that. I think there's a decent argument that it still counts under 4.0: if identification was supplied with the Licensed Material, you need to have identification; however, you may update that identification, at your option, if the creator supplies you with updated identification ("any reasonable manner requested by the Licensor" does not exclude requests made later, though identification still needs to have been supplied with the material in the first place to trigger it). It's not as clear-cut as my original comment made it out to be, though.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 17 at 21:15
-1

Note: I am not a lawyer and the below is my personal interpretation of the license terms and the sites terms of service, an actual lawyer should be contacted for any legal advice.


Let me start off by quoting the relevant sections of the license here.

Section 3(a)(1)(A)(i) (Removed punctuation / newlines to easily quote specific subsection only):

If You Share the Licensed Material (including in modified form), you must retain the following if it is supplied by the Licensor with the Licensed Material: identification of the creator(s) of the Licensed Material and any others designated to receive attribution, in any reasonable manner requested by the Licensor (including by pseudonym if designated);

Section 3(a)(2):

You may satisfy the conditions in Section 3(a)(1) in any reasonable manner based on the medium, means, and context in which You Share the Licensed Material. For example, it may be reasonable to satisfy the conditions by providing a URI or hyperlink to a resource that includes the required information.

Section 3(a)(3):

If requested by the Licensor, You must remove any of the information required by Section 3(a)(1)(A) to the extent reasonably practicable.

For users requesting deletion of their own account Section 3(a)(3) applies as by requesting deletion they are agreeing to anonymize all their posts.

For users deleted / destroyed by moderators / staff the important point here is that when the user exists the attribution requirements are satisfied by the user's username (A pseudonym as far as Stack Overflow the company is concerned) and a link to their profile. Now when a user is deleted they no longer exist on the site, for the purpose of other legal requirements their username is also disassociated (The site used to keep them at one point of time), due to this the site must attribute them in some other way or as it is actually done by another pseudonym.

Here we need to consider that the username was one of the pseudonym's the user had on the site, another (much less used by public) pseudonym they also had was their user ID. What Stack Overflow is relying on here to meet those attribution requirements is this user ID, when a user gets deleted all their posts get attributed to "userXYZ" where "XYZ" is the user's ID.

They don't need to worry about using the user's actual name / username as section 3(a)(2) provides them plenty of leeway given it states that the conditions may be satisfied "in any reasonable manner". Furthermore another point to be noted is that there was no explicit agreement between Stack Overflow and the users about the manner in which Stack Overflow will provide attribution, so they can basically give a unique identifier to the user on the site and use that to attribute them.

To state it in other terms the original attribution was of the form: user on the site Stack Overflow having username "placeholder", with the link to their profile being "link". After deletion of the user this becomes: Former user of the site Stack Overflow that had user ID "XYZ". This given the "medium, means, and context" (from Section 3(a)(2)) can potentially be considered as a reasonable manner to satisfy the attribution conditions.

Obviously if a user sends the company a request asking them to attribute all their posts in a certain way, even if it is a deleted user Stack Overflow might be required to do so due to the "in any reasonable manner requested by the Licensor" part in Section 3(a)(1)(A)(i) (depending on what is considered reasonable).

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    @14991864 I don't see how a completely arbitrary ID that usually isn't associated with the person and not chosen by them is a "reasonable manner" of identification. Not to mention that if it were, that ID should be destroyed alongside with the account on deletion. Commented May 14 at 9:47
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    @MisterMiyagi That ID is identifying them on the site, the username we use is also isn't really identifying us reliably, while some people might use what's assumed to be their real name many also use pseudonyms which might not actually identify them anywhere else. As far as the site is considered they are just changing out one pseudonym for another (In fact moderators can reset our usernames as well and it is also set in the form of userXYZ). Also the ID isn't really personal data while users might consider username as one and hence the site doesn't need to delete that with the account. Commented May 14 at 10:23
  • @MisterMiyagi as mentioned in my answer also we need to keep in mind there is no explicit mention of how the attribution would be done in the terms of service, so it cannot be said that we chose the username for the purpose of attribution. If a user explicitly corresponds with the company and asks them to do so then your point can stand as it is (or can be considered) a reasonable request by the licensor. Commented May 14 at 10:27
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    The username is a pseudonym designated by the user (sufficient for the "including by pseudonym if designated"). It's not equivalent to a pseudonym unilaterally created by a separate entity; if it's personal data then it's not sufficient to identify the author and thus not sufficient for attribution. Commented May 14 at 10:28
  • @MisterMiyagi you forget that that part is in brackets right after "requested by the Licensor" so a user explicitly needs to request that (since it is not present in the terms of service as well). In general one could go to court with this but Stack Overflow will probably put up a defense along these lines. Commented May 14 at 10:31
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    Of course we can go the "law is worth zilch unless you sue" route, but that's hardly what this Q&A is about. Even if you want to go that route, you can do it a lot shorter. Commented May 14 at 10:46
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    Posting an answer or question automatically adds the chosen pseudonym, so "it is supplied by the Licensor with the Licensed Material", and since the pseudonym is explicitly chosen by the user it is a pseudonym "requested by the Licensor" "in any reasonable manner". The "in any reasonable manner requested by the Licensor" relates to the identity to attribute to; it does not mean whether attribution must be given nor that attribution must be requested. Commented May 14 at 10:49
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    There is nothing implicit going on here. I've explicitly requested the pseudonym "MisterMiyagi" for my identity as a content creator, for example. That identity is obviously and provably known to SE Inc. By CC-BY-SA, they are required to retain "identification of the creator(s) of the Licensed Material" (they know it's "me" since I logged in, i.e. provided identification) "in any reasonable manner requested by the Licensor" (my pseudonym, which as mentioned I explicitly requested to be used). Commented May 14 at 10:56
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    See also, generally, the concept of contra proferentem. You don't get to offer up a contract of adhesion and then try to poke loopholes in your own contract (yes, CC wrote the license, but SE is still the offeror and chose that unilaterally).
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 14 at 11:01
  • 3
    Please stop cherrypicking. Section 3(a)(2) allows "a URI or hyperlink to a resource that includes the required information". If they scrub the required information from the ID link it is no longer sufficient. Commented May 14 at 11:01
  • 3
    Your interpretation of the terms of the contract is, at best, not the most reasonable one. Consider, for example, CC's explanation: "If supplied, you must provide the name of the creator". Or Stack Overflow's own explanation: "Show the author names for every question and answer". The display name is (at least in the absence of any other request) how the author requests to be identified; this is clear from the fact that it is displayed next to the content they post.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 14 at 11:09
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    @AbdulAzizBarkat "so you'd agree that if you reset a user's username you'd be party to breaking the license conditions?" If I did so for no reason, perhaps, but I've never done that. The license terms state that the attribution requested by the licensor must be reasonable, which, as a recent example of a display name that was reset, "F*** STACKOVERFLOW AND [OTHER ENTITY]" (asterisks not in original) is not.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 14 at 11:22
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    Regardless of whether there may be defenses (unclean hands could be particularly relevant to sockpuppetry, which is a ToS violation), and even where you could argue that a particular requested means of identification is not reasonable, it would almost certainly not be a valid defense that the author's display name is not what they've requested "as identification to be used for the purpose of attribution of [their] posts".
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 14 at 11:40
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    @RyanM I personally consider "user having (or who had) ID XYZ on Stack Overflow" as reasonable attribution given the "medium, means, and context" of the site. Both the display name and user ID IMO are replaceable in terms of the attribution. As the user ID also is an identification (as it represents our account even more so than the username which can be duplicate) we have provided when posting content. Commented May 14 at 11:50
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    @MisterMiyagi well this is my personal interpretation and I do agree it can be wrong (I am not a lawyer by any means). Looking back now, I do feel MSO is probably not the correct place for this question, it would be difficult to get an answer from suitable experts here. This should probably have been asked on Law SE. Commented May 14 at 12:19

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