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I have noticed a common pattern:

  • Someone's question(s) on the main site is/are not well received

  • That person comes to Meta to ask about how to improve the question(s), perhaps due to seeing a warning about the algorithmic question ban

  • By way of demonstrating and verifying the issue, the Meta question mentions that the main-site question(s) was/were downvoted

  • The Meta question almost always receives a strongly negative score, even if OP:

    • is polite
    • does not appear to be complaining of unfair treatment
    • is not proposing that the fault, in any way, lies with others
    • seems to demonstrate a basic awareness of policy including e.g. reading the question-ban FAQ
    • seems generally interested in asking better questions and becoming a better contributor to the site

I am not entirely certain as to whether the mention of downvotes is the cause of the poor reception, but it does seem to correlate strongly in my observances. In cases where the OP doesn't mention receiving downvotes, the Meta community may wonder why the feedback about question quality is being requested in the first place. (In one recent instance, information about downvotes was edited in after a comment exchange suggesting that the need for feedback wasn't clear, and things only seemed to get worse from there.) It also doesn't seem to play out in the same way when a question is closed and OP asks how to make the question more clear, more focused, etc.

Why does this occur? It comes across that many Meta users view such questions on Meta as inherently disagreeable; but I can't see a good rationale for this. Meta has tags like for a reason; I would have thought that it's specifically so that people who want to improve their questions can figure out how, and get advice tailored to those questions (or, at least, explanations of faults in the questions that they overlooked and which were not already pointed out to them).

This is not asking about the "Meta effect"; this only explains increased attention to questions that are referenced. I am asking about the Meta discussion itself - not about what happens in these cases to the corresponding main site question(s).

This is also not asking about Why isn't it required to provide comments/feedback for downvotes, and why are proposals suggesting this so negatively received? ; the phenomenon seems to appear whenever downvotes are mentioned, even when OP did not propose anything of the sort. As much as we don't require main-space users to comment, Meta seems like explicitly the place to solicit such feedback - not a place to receive the message, in effect, "you ought to know already what's wrong with the question", or even "don't worry about the looming question ban; people have arbitrary and capricious reasons for downvoting and it's wrong to seek out explanations or try to do anything about it".

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    Inspired by How can I improve this question about parameterizing a test fixture?, by any chance?
    – Thom A
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 15:49
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    The ones that tick most of the boxes in your list for "good" specific question questions are often positively scored. there's currently more than 1150, out of 1773 total (obviously not including deleted) that have been positively scored. Sure, there's probably way more deleted that weren't well received, but i'd guess the majority of those fail most of the points of your list.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 15:50
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    @ThomA and also the follow-on, and by Are these questions really bad enough to get ban on stackoverflow?; but more generally by a memory that it has generally always worked out this way. If there is a good reason for it, then it should be explicitly stated somewhere for reference. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 15:50
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    Well, surely the one Thom linked was poorly received because it was posted so soon after the main site question. 2023-08-31 15:00:25Z vs 2023-08-31 15:17:23Z Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 15:51
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    @KevinB if you have sufficient statistics to refute my premise then I would be happy to see it as an answer. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 15:51
  • 3
    @KarlKnechtel i can't be bothered, :shrug:
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 15:51
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    My subjective impression is that questions asking about how to improve a single question are usually received well when they aren't a rant, a complaint or lazy. But it could be that I miss some of the heavily downvoted posts. What's often not received well are users that basically ask for a full review of all there questions.
    – BDL
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 15:55
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    The score also seems to correspond with the value of the specific question. If it's one that should be reopened, undeleted, or has a negative score but "shouldn't", or has a positive score/is open and should be closed and that's what the question is asking for, it'll be positively received. Effectively, the score of the question reflects the "correctness" of the request. Asking for an off topic question to be reopened will nearly always be downvoted, as opposed to asking to reopen an on topic question that was incorrectly closed.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 16:00
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    I will freely admit I downvoted that question I linked to before as the OP posted their question on meta within 15 minutes of their question being posted on Stack Overflow, after it had received no more than 3 views from other users. They also offered little to no insight as to why they felt it needed improvement. It felt more like they were trying to get views on it, a "free bounty" as it were.
    – Thom A
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 16:05
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    There were no votes on the question until after their post, @KarlKnechtel . I was the 5 visitor to their post.
    – Thom A
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 16:08
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    As an FYI, this can also actually be evidenced on the user's reputation page, @KarlKnechtel . Notice the first downvote is at 15:37:29Z, however, their meta post was created at 15:17:23Z (a full 20 minutes prior to the first vote).
    – Thom A
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 16:11
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    @KarlKnechtel i downvoted their initial request because i saw no reason for them to be concerned with the quality of their post. My interpretation was the post was made to draw attention rather than to honestly request feedback. they provided no reasoning within their meta post to be requesting feedback, so at best it was unclear.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 16:11
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    Too preoccupied to come up with the stats for an answer, but anecdotally I've seen constructive "how do I improve my question" questions on Meta scored positively more often than not. In this case, I'm a bit confused. Sometimes experts in a tag are heavy-handed.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 16:13
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    Related search for data: "how can i improve", though possibly affected by survivor bias, because most of the bad were also deleted.
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 17:06
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    @KevinB Including deleted in specific-question, there are 2,493 questions returned for [specific-question] deleted:any is:q and 1,188 for [specific-question] is:q deleted:any score:1..
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 19:02

1 Answer 1

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Possible explanations include:

Selection bias

For example, this small sample of questions that would seem to be of the sort described, was quite well received overall: the median score is +5, and only 20 of 87 stand at a negative score at the time of writing. Although I can't easily see an obvious issue with most of the downvoted questions here, some of them do clearly violate the complaint and fault-finding guidelines I mentioned.

Inappropriate sensitivity

In one recent example (not captured by the above query), a closer examination reveals that at the time the Meta question was initially posted, the main-site question had not actually even been downvoted yet, and had barely been seen by anyone. This could make it appear that OP was simply trying to draw more attention to a question due to not receiving a rapid reply (which is not expected in general).

"Needs more focus"

Although it's rare to close questions on this basis on Meta, it can be argued to apply to questions where OP is nearing or has reached question-ban status and thus sees fit to ask about several main-site questions. It's not too likely that they all have the same problem, and even if they do, it would be necessary to explain how the problem applies, to each question in order to be truly useful. This is a lot to expect from Meta commentators (even if I'm personally willing to roll up my sleeves for it).

There is a bit of a tension here. Ideally, people would ask after their first poorly received question, in a way specific to how the question was closed (and ideally, downvoted questions would get closed, at least in ordinary cases - as the suggested reasons for downvotes on questions ordinarily are either directly also reasons for closure, or would naturally cause a question to be close-worthy). Ideally, unsuitable questions would be closed promptly, even though immediate answers aren't expected here. (In fact, it would explicitly be good to be able to close the close-worthy questions before they can inappropriately get answers from people who don't care about the question guidelines.) This would entail Meta discussions that happen promptly - just after the question has been thoroughly judged as lacking. On the other hand, there is no realistic way that the Meta site could handle that kind of volume.

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    There's a bias in your selection: Many of the downvoted questions are deleted too.
    – Laurel
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 19:26
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    as the suggested reasons for downvotes on questions ordinarily are either directly also reasons for closure, or would naturally cause a question to be close-worthy - Lack of research effort is a common downvote reason but not a close reason. I think that's true of other things like being very specific to one use-case (e.g. a lot of code, so probably not helpful to future readers even if they're working on the same type of program). Other than lack of [MCVE] (because it's too far from minimal), there isn't a close reason that fits well. Too broad (answer = book) can often be closed, though. Commented Sep 2, 2023 at 3:13
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    @PeterCordes many of the best and most important questions on the site are things like stackoverflow.com/questions/522563, which could have easily been answered by research even in 2009 - it's explained in the tutorial built in to the official Python documentation, in essentially the same spot where it's been since 2.3 (dating to 2003). Commented Sep 2, 2023 at 3:39
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    My finding has been that when lack of research effort makes a question bad, it's generally because the question needs more focus. The point of such research effort is to identify the specific problem that... actually causes a problem, and where and how it is causing a problem. Commented Sep 2, 2023 at 3:43
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    That's a good point. Another reason when lack-of-research makes a question bad is that it's a duplicate. Or basically the same debugging question, but sometimes it's very hard to find a good enough and close enough duplicate (for the combination of bugs in their assembly program) but totally uninteresting to future readers since many like it already exist. Commented Sep 2, 2023 at 4:26
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    (Assembly language is perhaps a bit special because putting together different sub-problems into a working program is harder than in most languages; you have to understand things better to stick them together. So by convention, non-MCVE close reasons rarely get used when people post their whole program that (tries to) read input, do something, and print output. If I can find good duplicates, though, I still close as a list of multiple duplicates if I spot problems in multiple parts, if the whole program is still small enough and readable enough to at least look over the whole thing.) Commented Sep 2, 2023 at 4:27
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    "Or basically the same debugging question, but sometimes it's very hard to find a good enough and close enough duplicate (for the combination of bugs in their assembly program)" If there only appear to be two or three bugs and they're all "classics", I don't mind multi-dupe closing (ideally, such questions will get deleted, as they're entirely useless as signposts). But this is admittedly stretching policy a little in the interest of expediency. By the book, if you are saying "combination of bugs" then you have already acknowledged that the question Needs More Focus. Commented Sep 2, 2023 at 13:07
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    @KarlKnechtel I agree, I think lack of research effort is more oriented towards lack of effort in specifying what the problem is (as you said, needs more focus) or is a duplicate. For example, I wrote this question and the answer turned out to be quite explicit in the documentation but since it's often difficult to find what you need in documentation, and it's not very google-able like SO questions, I see value in it. I guess I also showed that I did try to look for an answer which is worth something and perhaps why it didn't get downvoted? Commented Sep 3, 2023 at 18:25

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