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Background

I am trying to solve a problem related the web app that I build for a client, involving Google Analytics failing to display data. I searched across all Stack Exchange sites and found that Stack Exchange had by far the largest number of questions about Google Analytics. And since GA definitely fits within the category of

software tools commonly used by programmers

I went ahead with it (despite having expected that there might have been another site that would turn up as the preferred place to ask about it).

So in short:

  1. It fits within the stated criteria.
  2. There is precedent for asking those questions on that site instead of another one.

Had the general practice and precedent been to ask on another site, I would have gladly posted on that other site, but clearly the precedent was to ask on Stack Overflow. I was simply following the established practice.

I explained all of this, including the stats comparing the question count, since some people might also be surprised to find out that SO is the place where such questions are asked and answered, and I know some people have a habit of closing questions without actually making an effort to look into whether a question belongs on the site or not. So I thought I would save them the effort and lay out all the information for them.

Problem

Instead of accepting the facts I presented, one user deleted all information about why the question fits within Stack Overflow's bounds, and then proceeded to close the question with no explanation of why he didn't find the facts I offered compelling.

Info that was removed:

enter image description here

This seems to me to be both dishonest and abusive.

  1. Dishonest: deliberately hiding the facts that contradict the act of closing, so that subsequent viewers with the power to close are not likely to recognize the illegitimate close vote.
  2. Abusive: using one's power to close something while knowing why it should not be closed is an abuse of power.

It is a normal part of Stack Overflow's process that a user who asks a question can explain why their question does fit the site, but if someone else suppresses that information, the user's ability to state their case is effectively revoked. In another similar situation, I was locked out of editing my own question to make the case. This effectively allows a high-power user to almost unilaterally decide that they don't like a question and they don't want any other users to see the evidence to the contrary. I say "almost" because although they need some other close votes, the way many people close as a knee-jerk response makes those votes easy to come by. Especially when the high-power user can distort the question in any way they wish, they can virtually guarantee that if they cast a close vote others will follow.

What I propose as a solution includes a few things:

  1. A person who votes to close a question should never be able to also edit that question.
  2. A person who asks a question should never be blocked from editing their own question, especially not by anyone voting to close it, and not by anyone who is editing it to be something other than the question the OP asked.
  3. Anyone voting to close a question should be required to look through the history of edits. If the current version of the question deserves to be closed, perhaps a previous version does not. If any version is suitable, then the solution is to revert to that version, and not to close the question.
  4. Anyone closing a question that gives reasons for being where it is should be required to explain why those reasons fall short, and not simply rely on the generic text that appears on closed question.
  5. If there is another site that is determined to be more appropriate, there should be a simple way provided to repost or migrate the question to that other site, and historical questions should either be also migrated or should have a banner displayed like "this question would belong on XYZ site, but XYZ site didn't exist when it was asked" (or whatever the reason actually is should be displayed).
  6. Users who close questions should be required to actually know and understand the guidelines for what does and doesn't belong, and those who repeatedly vote to close questions which should not be closed should lose their ability to vote to close questions.
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    I commonly use a web browser as a developer, that doesn't make questions about them necessarily on-topic. A question about GA would be on topic if it's a problem about developing with the SDK, but this seems to be about their control panel, which isn't really a programming problem.
    – vandench
    Commented Mar 22, 2023 at 20:40
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    I think those edits were appropriate as the deleted parts were simply noise for the question. You were campaigning to keep the question from being closed in the prologue of your question. Commented Mar 22, 2023 at 20:40
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    Just because you fail to understand what is on topic does not mean that the question is on topic.
    – JK.
    Commented Mar 22, 2023 at 20:46
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    You may want to clarify why the text that you claim was incorrectly removed was related to problem you were trying to solve - to me the edit look garden variety fluff removeal and in no way related to closing of the question. You also may clarify how the second update that was removed by mod was supposed to clarify the original question. At this point I feel you justify FR with unrelated events. Commented Mar 22, 2023 at 21:18
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    "Instead of accepting the facts I presented, one user deleted all information about why the question fits within Stack Overflow's bounds" - This absolutely was a valid edit. Commented Mar 23, 2023 at 5:42
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    Do you believe that a user who tries to find information from a web search and lands on your question is required to read about where you believe a question should be posted? For reference, I believe the answer is "no". I'd be curious to see if and why you would think otherwise. Because questions are as applicable to other visitors as they are to the question author. The reason to post a question should be to share it with all future visitors. A very large portion of those land on questions after a web search and might not even have an account on the site.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 23, 2023 at 7:23
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    This is why I very much dislike the way it is written in the helpcenter - it promotes selective reading. The full line would be "software tools commonly used by programmers; and is a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development" . The last item in the bullet list is an and, not or.
    – Gimby
    Commented Mar 24, 2023 at 16:13

2 Answers 2

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The explanation for why it is relevant to SO wasn't relevant to your question. Editing it out was the correct move. Nothing about this was dishonest or abusive, and it was entirely transparent as edits are all visible on non-deleted questions.

A person who votes to close a question should never be able to also edit that question.

I disagree, closure is intended to be a temporary state; editing a question that might be able to be further edited by the OP to make it on topic should be encouraged. Editing questions that can't be edited to be on topic should not be encouraged.

A person who asks a question should never be blocked from editing their own question, especially not by anyone voting to close it, and not by anyone who is editing it to be something other than the question the OP asked.

Agreed, and this is already the way things work. (Unless an elected moderator steps in to stop a rollback war)

Anyone voting to close a question should be required to look through the history of edits. If the current version of the question deserves to be closed, perhaps a previous version does not. If any version is suitable, then the solution is to revert to that version, and not to close the question.

There is nothing stopping someone from looking at the edit history, however we close questions based on their current state, not the state they were in in the past. If an edit occurs that you think makes the post off topic or worse, you as the OP can roll it back.

If there is another site that is determined to be more appropriate, there should be a simple way provided to repost or migrate the question to that other site, and historical questions should either be also migrated or should have a banner displayed like "this question would belong on XYZ site, but XYZ site didn't exist when it was asked" (or whatever the reason actually is should be displayed).

In a perfect world I'd agree, however we are not experts on these other sites and can't reliably determine whether or not an off topic question on this site is on topic elsewhere. The poster should instead go to the other community and read their rules/guidelines and make that determination themselves.

Users who close questions should be required to actually know and understand the guidelines for what does and doesn't belong, and those who repeatedly vote to close questions which should not be closed should lose their ability to vote to close questions.

Question closure is a privilege that is unlocked at 3000 reputation. It is expected that users at this point should know what closure is for, however, in cases where the privilege is abused, anyone who witnesses such abuse can flag for a moderator.

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    We used to have easy migration paths to other exchange sites. Most of these were removed at the request of the folks who frequent these other sites because of the glut of crap we sent them. If you're not a regular participant at a site you're recommending an asker self-migrate to, you probably shouldn't be sending folks there. Commented Mar 22, 2023 at 22:25
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I searched across all Stack Exchange sites and found that Stack [Overflow] had by far the largest number of questions about Google Analytics.

Yes; Stack Overflow has many questions about how to write code to use Google Analytics. Your question, on the other hand is about the data that GA gave you. That data came from code that you

  • did not write
  • did not run on your own machine
  • do not show in the question
  • do not have available to you
  • are not actually asking about.

Explaining the result is out of scope for Stack Overflow. It is a tech support question. The cause is either something idiosyncratic to GA (which, if not documented, could only possibly be answered by a Google engineer, even in theory) or else a common consequence of how the internet works (e.g., something to do with caching and CDNs) - this would possibly be on topic at Server Fault, but not here. (Even that seems unlikely to me, unless you're trying to become a competitor to Google and are studying their implementation for reference.)

software tools commonly used by programmers

  1. Would you say that a refrigerator is an "appliance commonly used by plumbers"? Common sense dictates that we mean "software tools commonly used by programmers as a part of the process of programming".

  2. Note carefully the "; and is" part. The question needs to meet one of the first three criteria in the bullet-point list. It also needs to meet the last one:

[is] a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development

This last point is not negotiable.

Anyone who owns and operates a web site (even one created with a codeless site-builder) - or, say, a marketing employee at a company with an online presence - could plausibly check Google Analytics, get a result like this, and wonder why. The only software development involved here is on Google's end.

Instead of accepting the facts I presented, one user deleted all information about why the question fits within Stack Overflow's bounds

There are two problems with this assertion.

  1. As established above, the question does not fit within Stack Overflow's bounds.

  2. Questions are not supposed to be prefaced with a justification for being there. This is not a discussion forum, so questions should not contain anything "meta".

Posting a preface like this strongly suggests that you expect someone else to wrongly-in-your-view close the question. If you actually do have an on-topic question, there is no good reason to worry about this ahead of time. If that does happen, the correct place for extended discussion of the matter is here, not in the question itself. Or at least, start with comments on the question, and then see whether a Meta question is necessary.

Keep in mind that questions exist to help build a Q&A library, not simply to resolve a problem that you personally are experiencing. Give some consideration to how a preface like this would look to someone who found the question with a search engine.

It is a normal part of Stack Overflow's process that a user who asks a question can explain why their question does fit the site

Not in the question itself - except for editing a question that was closed so that, e.g.:

  • if it was closed as a duplicate, it is now clear why the question is different from the target;

  • if it was closed as unclear, it can now be understood;

  • if it was closed as opinion-based, it now includes objective criteria;

  • if it was closed as not about programming, it has been rephrased so that it is now about programming.

In most cases, however, the latter is simply not possible.

A person who votes to close a question should never be able to also edit that question.

This would seriously inhibit vital curation tasks that already have a massive backlog (perhaps hundreds of person-years of work).

A person who asks a question should never be blocked from editing their own question

Having your question closed does not block you from editing it.

The reason you cannot edit the question is because a moderator (one of the 27 users out of about 23 million on the site with diamonds next to their names - not the person who closed the question) locked the question after rolling back your edits.

This was (from what I can tell from the edit history) done because:

  1. You edited an inflammatory argument into the question, calling the closer "a special kind of bully". You should count yourself lucky if you didn't get formally disciplined by the moderators for that (this can include a reputation penalty, a formal message from them using an otherwise-inaccessible messaging system, and possibly a suspension).

  2. You made an unjustified assumption about the closer's motivations (i.e., that the closer was expecting the question to contain code). Questions don't need to contain code - both you and the closer have 20k+ reputation and should understand this well - but they do need to be about code.

  3. You made this edit in an "update" style, which is distracting; and you did nothing to actually clarify your stance - you merely reiterated it and complained that the closer didn't agree. These things make the question worse, not better.

If the current version of the question deserves to be closed, perhaps a previous version does not.

This is vanishingly rare. It certainly did not happen in this case.

Anyone closing a question that gives reasons for being where it is should be required to explain why those reasons fall short

Absolutely not. Same reasoning as not expecting people to comment on downvotes. But worse because the question should not do this in the first place.

If there is another site that is determined to be more appropriate, there should be a simple way provided to repost or migrate the question to that other site

There used to be, for certain limited cases. It turned out that basically every other site we tried this with hated our guts for sending them low-quality questions that we were wrong to think were appropriate for their sites.

Users who close questions should be required to actually know and understand the guidelines for what does and doesn't belong, and those who repeatedly vote to close questions which should not be closed should lose their ability to vote to close questions.

They do. The person who edited and VTC'd your question has reviewed more than 47 thousand close votes in the review queues. I think expertise is well established here.

You would do well not to approach meta discussions with the attitude that you know policy better than everyone else, particularly when you are motivated by personally being affected by someone else's application of policy, and particularly when you don't even know all the facts (e.g. about editing and locking).


I'm going to put my conclusion in h1, because I really think you need to meditate on the deeper implications here:

Stack Overflow is not a discussion forum.

Don't take a combative attitude.

Take it seriously when we interpret topicality strictly, because we are trying to build a library, not operate a help desk.

Keep in mind that your question is part of that library from the moment it's asked. Read How to Ask and think about what you'd want that to look like, if you came across it with a search engine.

Put meta stuff where it belongs.

Edit to improve clarity and the flow of posts - do copyediting, not updating. Remove noise, don't add it.

You have been around the main site for more than 13 years. We should be able to expect better of you than this.

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    Karl, I've been noticing your very strong treatment of bad questions lately. Well done, keep up the good work.
    – JK.
    Commented Mar 22, 2023 at 22:46
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    @JK. It's partly so I don't pour that treatment into questions from new users on the main site, and also partly drafting/brainstorming some things I want to write about on my blog. Commented Mar 23, 2023 at 0:14
  • Blog? Where is it? Commented Mar 23, 2023 at 0:27
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    @PeterMortensen Haven't meaningfully started yet. I'll definitely mention in the Python chat room when I do. Commented Mar 23, 2023 at 0:39
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    Good luck. It only took me 13 years to really get started. Embarrassment-driven blog post writing seems to be working for me: Schedule a blog post every week on a particular weekday (they are automatically published). If I don't finish in time, I will be so embarrassed that I need to bring it to an acceptable state ASAP (but hopefully before the automatic publication). Commented Mar 23, 2023 at 1:12

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