45

In a probably unprecedented (and definitely antidemocratic) move one of the moderator candidates of the current (2021 Fall-on-the-Northern-Hemisphere) election posted their nomination 53 seconds before the nomination phase ended.

There are three main problems here. The first is that comments can only be posted on a candidate's nomination page during the nomination phase, so this "tactical" move prevented all kinds of discussion (most importantly, scrutiny) from all the folks who bother to look at nomination pages.

The second problem is that the user didn't even bother to answer the questionnaire, which could've been addressed in inquisitive comments -- if the "tactical" move hadn't prevented leaving comments, see previous point about scrutiny.

Finally, intentionally gaming the election system is the most antidemocratic thing I can think of. It is a slap in the face for both the community, and fellow nominees who have made the effort of submitting a legitimate nomination with ample room for discussion and criticism.

So my question is this: what if the candidate (sporting a 40/40 candidate score; voting masses love that!) gets elected? How can we trust a moderator whose very first action even before being elected was gaming the very systems we have in place to try and ensure democratic elections? And can we do something to prevent such abuse of nominations in the future?

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  • 17
    It might be unprecedented, but it certainly wasn't unpredictable... Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:21
  • 27
    @Nick I understand why someone would want to game the system. But allegedly we're looking for mods who are "patient and fair", "lead by example" and "show respect for their fellow community members in their actions and words". Kind of the opposite of "gaming the system". We expect better from our mods, or at least we're supposed to expect better from them. Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:24
  • 50
    One might assume good faith: the candidate didn't know that the comments would be locked.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:26
  • 28
    One might assume good faith, but I don't feel terribly gullible today. Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:26
  • 25
    I think it's awfully clever. Some candidates have gotten some rather nasty accusations that couldn't really be backed up, any way.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:34
  • 36
    Only candidate with the Sportsmanship badge, isn't it ironic. Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:36
  • 23
    Something in me says this is the perfect candidate. He knows the system well enough to game it ... might be handy for hunting down sock puppets.
    – rene
    Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:47
  • 35
    Some might argue that anyone foolish enough to volunteer for a non-paying job (for that is what it is), one where the amount of responsibility greatly outweighs the amount of power isn't quite fit for any job :D Perhaps the greatest punishment would be to win the election Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 22:19
  • 68
    Meh, if there is an expectation that nominations must be submitted a certain time period before voting opens this should be enforced by the system Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 23:21
  • 36
    @CodyGray Assuming good faith is important. We should do so here. However, I'd be surprised if the candidate didn't know comments were locked once the election began. They ran for SO moderator in 2018, and were elected on Data Science in 2019. The old election system also locked comments once the election began, or at least that it did so in both 2019 and 2020 (I don't recall personally testing it in other years). So, I'd give the explanation of "didn't know" a low probability. That doesn't mean we shouldn't still assume good faith.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 1:11
  • 27
    My good faith assumption here is simply that they were on the fence about nominating themselves, and were rushed to squeeze in a nomination before the deadline. If this was purely strategic, I imagine they'd have included answers to the questionnaire. Otherwise, it seems like a pretty poor strategy; I can't imagine someone who didn't take the time to answer the questionnaire getting much traction. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 1:18
  • 21
    @SomethingDark And that's the most appropriate response to this: if you don't like the action(s), vote accordingly
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 3:11
  • 19
    @AndrasDeak, sorry I have caused so much consternation. Mondays are the busiest day of the week, and I am not a fast writer. Was there some philosophical point in this year's questionnaire that you did not find at least somewhat covered in my 2018 questionnaire?
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 4:19
  • 40
    This post is not nice. This is totally within the rules. There is a line, he was on the right side of it. Any line will necessitate some being closer than others. The point of the line is to decide the point in which it's no longer acceptable. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 4:48
  • 27
    So wait a sec, Stephen vows to spend at least 30 minutes per day to SO, but didn't find time to complete the questionnaire and self-nominate for the whole week until the very last second? Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 7:29

10 Answers 10

117

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Is this even an issue? You can look at their nomination post/sales pitch for why they think they'd make a good moderator through the end of the voting phase. If everything they've done and said in the nomination post would otherwise lead you to believe that they're alright, then there's not much other reason to vote differently on their nomination.

In the end, this doesn't really change a whole lot - you're voting on who you think would be best as a moderator. If their action to get their submission in literally as the door was closing reflects poorly in your eyes - which, I need to stress, is still entirely allowed, even if it leaves a sour taste in your mouth - then you should take that into consideration when you vote.

Remember: An assignment that is due by 11:59PM Sunday evening can take submissions all the way up to 11:58:59PM.

Edit: Looks like they got full credit for the assignment too. Guess there really is no such thing as "bad publicity", is there...?

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    I'm trying to vote for who I think would be best as a moderator, but I can't find your avatar! What am I doing wrong?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:33
  • 20
    Yes, it's an issue. No, just because it's "legal" doesn't make it ethical or acceptable. It's not about my opinion. I know what I think. But surely you're aware that elections are largely decided by uninformed swarms of users who see notifications on the main site telling them to vote. If we don't even try to uphold the appearance of giving a fair choice, what are we even doing with the elections? But of course, if the community (by which I mean meta for want of a better forum) thinks this is fine then it's fine, and the site will be in the kind of hands that it deserves. Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:33
  • 12
    @CodyGray I hate you, take my upvote <3
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:33
  • 17
    We fundamentally disagree so I don't want to drag this thread out any longer, so just one last point: the "tactical" move I object to is not along the "capable mod" axis, it's along the "responsible mod" axis. If (when) a moderator screws up, they'll have to answer to the community. They should. Some always do, some never do. I want the ones that always do. A mod candidate who sidesteps meta scrutiny for selfish reasons (because there can only be selfish reasons) I expect to give the same cold shoulder when they need to be held accountable by the community. Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:38
  • 6
    @AndrasDeak: It sounds like you've got the data points you wanted from this candidate's nomination. I literally do not know what else I can tell you here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:39
  • 25
    "Remember: An assignment that is due by 11:59PM Sunday evening can take submissions all the way up to 11:58:59PM." This is not really a good metaphor. A homework assignment typically does not affect the future of your classmates in the class or school system, and your classmates don't typically review your homework assignments before you turn them in.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:48
  • 27
    @TylerH: My point is that everyone here is making a whole big deal over the technicality of when the assignment was submitted, not what was in it. My point is for people here to make a concerted effort to evaluate the candidate on their merits, not when they nominated themselves. Note that I'm being meticulously careful on this point, since I feel like a lot of people want to jump on a bandwagon and either laud or crucify a candidate for some specific reason, when the simplest thing may be to...just...not vote for them...if you think this is unbecoming of a moderator.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 21:51
  • 3
    @user4581301 why exterminate, when you can assimilate? We have perfectly serviceable Collectives.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Oct 18, 2021 at 22:11
  • 7
    To extend on the closing remarks: Personally, if an assignment is due by 11:59PM Sunday evening, I'll likely submit it at 11:58:59PM—even if, in practice, I actually completed the assignment a week prior. That gives me every opportunity to reevaluate my answer. (Acknowledging that self nominations can be edited.) (Of course, just last week, I attempted to submit an assignment at 11:58PM, only to encounter a technical roadblock that prevented the submission from going through. YMMV.) Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 1:06
  • 7
    I would take this behavior as a useful signal for determining how to vote on the candidate, rather than a call to pitchforks.
    – cs95
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 9:21
  • 3
    @Makoto Personally I suspect the issue is not just "when", but a combination of "when" and the fact that, due to "when", no commentary was allowed due to comments getting auto locked, preventing anyone from criticizing/requesting elaboration on a particular candidate's lackluster nomination.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 15:47
  • 4
    Those concerned with impropriety may consider such a tactic underhanded, a behavior that's really not appropriate in a moderator... and something that most people who visit the election page will be blissfully unaware of. Note that users who are not eligible to self-nominate don't get a notification about the nomination stage... they only get a notification about the voting stages. Some folks are recommending we allow commentary during the voting stages, which I generally support, along with other adjustments to the process.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 15:49
  • 7
    @TylerH: The natural thing is to not vote for the candidate who you believe did something underhanded. It's like...that's really the only real recourse here. So what if they got their nomination in just before the buzzer? Read up on them to see if they're otherwise qualified, and if they aren't, just don't vote for them. I just really cannot see the point in shouting about this when honestly the fix is to just not vote for a candidate you don't believe is fit for the role.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 22:04
  • 3
    @Makoto "The natural thing is to not vote for the candidate who you believe did something underhanded." This misses the entire point. You may sit comfortably in your ivory tower knowing you diligently exercise due process, but those interested in ensuring the system is safeguarded from potential abuse have to worry about the lowest common denominator. "It's like...that's really the only real recourse here." Sure, if you... ignore the existing of this and several other questions on MSO and MSE putting forth other options for recourse.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 14:01
  • 4
    @Makoto Argumentum ad absurdum? Really? One can notice a problem and want to solve it without it being a "grave sin threatening to unleash anarchy". You're just doubling down on the position of it being fine just because you can't be bothered. That's fine for you, but get out of everyone else's way, please.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 22:29
100

... intentionally games the system?

I think this assumption is all wrong. I find it strange that it can be considered as such. The system had a deadline for nomination, and the nomination was done before that deadline. So there is no gaming involved.

Where do you read that a nomination should be done X seconds before deadline? And what is this X? Here X was 53 seconds which you apparently dislike. Would 120 seconds be okay. 3600 seconds? ... And if X isn't written anywhere, who decides its value? You?

It's simply incorrect to call this for gaming. A deadline is a deadline.

Further, why do you assume that it's an advantage? Maybe it's really a disadvantage as the candidate didn't get any time to discuss with voters and convince voters to vote for the candidate. Perhaps it's simply a missed opportunity due to a late decision. Something that will hurt the candidate more than it will benefit the candidate.

And a missing questionnaire is not "gaming", either. No way. It might hurt the candidate, as voters would have liked to read it. That's the candidate's problem, though. But "gaming"... no, it's not.

If anyone is to blame, it must be the system. Maybe there should have been a time period after the nomination deadline where comments were still allowed. But that's a different discussion.

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    It’s also worth noting that the early feedback offered in the comments gives candidates an opportunity to refine their candidate statement in order to address weaknesses or misunderstandings—an opportunity this candidate did not receive. Those improvements are almost certainly more visible to most voters than the comments themselves. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 5:27
  • 7
    "Maybe there should have been a time period after the nomination deadline where comments were still allowed." Sounds like the obvious way out. In many real life elections, there is such a time period. Not saying that we strictly need it here. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 15:25
  • 1
    Exactly. It's not gaming the system; it's simply a broken system. The fault is entirely on whoever designed the system. To even conceive of the question requires switching your brain out of programming mode and into social politics mode. Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 17:11
  • 4
    @TechInquisitor: Gaming a broken system is still gaming it. Saying it's not is like saying "I wasn't hacking that server! It's their fault for having vulnerabilities." Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 17:34
  • 1
    @user2357112supportsMonica Outside of laws written by technologically ignorant legislators, there is no distinction between what a system allows you to do and what that system implies you are authorized to do. Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 18:32
  • 3
    @TechInquisitor: That is absolutely false. A system that allows me to, say, log in as another user by putting ' or 1=1; -- as my password does not imply I am authorized to do that. Even if it were true, it would have no bearing on the point about gaming broken systems. Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 18:47
  • 2
    Easy solution: Next time make the deadline 5 minutes earlier. That'll fix the problem! (My friend Zeno suggested this, he's thought about this kind of thing a lot.)
    – davidbak
    Commented Oct 21, 2021 at 17:49
37

I'm hesitant to add another answer saying essentially the same thing as the other two, but as a candidate in this election who is directly impacted by the at-the-wire entry, I figure my perspective can add some insight to the discussion.

And rather than repeating what Makoto said in his answer, I'll just quote the most eloquent part of it:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Speaking for myself, I'm glad there is another strong competitor and will fully support their election if they win. After all, the two moderators elected will have run against four competitors, a much harder challenge than being in the top 40%.

I'll also quote in agreement with another candidate's response in chat immediately following the last-minute entry:

Well Played!

My only disappointment is that there were not more last minute entries.

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  • 33
    I suppose if I ever run, I'll self-nominate at the last second too so that I don't get roasted like Zoe did in the comments. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 7:36
  • 6
    @mickmackusa make sure you let me know when you nominate so I can get an umbrella to protect me from the flying pigs... :)
    – Nick
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 7:42
  • 5
    @mickmackusa Maybe you won't get roasted. I nominated myself early and it wasn't so bad.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 8:16
  • 3
    Fortunately for you, we have very different personas on SO. @Dha Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 8:22
30

I don't know whether or not they "intentionally gamed the system", but I don't really care. All I care about is the end result. Before seeing this meta post, I read through their nomination statement and I noticed three things:

  1. They didn't fill in the questionnaire. (bad)

  2. They aren't very active on meta. (bad)

  3. They're the only candidate with a score of 40/40. (good, arguably)

So, I wanted to ask the candidate about #1 and #2 (I didn't know/remember that comments are locked after the nomination phase) but I couldn't. I don't know whether or not they did that on purpose and as I said above, I don't really care. The end result is: neither I nor other users had the chance to address those two points with the candidate. And specifically for that reason, I decided not to vote for them.

21

I don't see how posting the nomination at the last second could possibly have a positive effect for Stephen.

People who really care about the questionnaire and the comments on the nomination won't like that he did it that way, and probably won't vote for him because of it.

People who don't care about the questionnaire and the comments on the nomination won't have read them anyway, and they'll vote however they would have voted regardless of when the nomination was posted, if they vote at all.

Maybe it's just me, but the nomination post is not the most important thing to me anyway. Looking through the person's profile to see how they normally act is more valuable to me than reading a carefully prepared example of their best behavior. (If there isn't much there to see either, that's not a good sign for me.)

5
  • "I don't see how posting the nomination at the last second could possibly have a positive effect..." Agreed. But maybe the rationale of the candidate was that posting the nomination at the last minute would not have a decisively strong negative effect either. It could have been some kind of I don't think it's worth the effort consideration. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 15:34
  • @Trilarion I think that's definitely a reasonable interpretation. Maybe it really won't have a strong negative effect. I do think any effect at all will be negative, though. Giving people the impression that they don't think it's worth the effort doesn't seem like it would add much appeal to a candidate. I don't know, though. Some people probably like the idea of a moderator who won't really do much. ;-) Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 16:02
  • "People who really care about the questionnaire and the comments on the nomination won't like that he did it that way, and probably won't vote for him because of it." This is exactly how I felt and what lead to my vote. I put my trust in the people voting; we all know the rules, too. The candidate didn't really thrill or stand out to me so it was a fairly easy pass. This is like a billionaire from NYC running for US president and does nothing but throw money at the system, only for the system to go "Uhh..what? No thanks." and said candidate shrugs and walks away.
    – chrisbyte
    Commented Oct 21, 2021 at 0:20
  • @chrisbyte Huh? I thought that billionaire won in 2016..
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 21, 2021 at 0:25
  • @Scratte I'm talking about Bloomberg, sorry, I should have clarified!
    – chrisbyte
    Commented Oct 21, 2021 at 0:30
18

If you believe this nominee's actions were disingenuous, you should take that into account when casting your vote.

You make a good point that drive by voting is mostly influenced by candidate score - and this is highly unlikely to change depending on how early or late the user nominated themselves.

For those of us in the know, we can make an informed decision based on the user's actions and the content (or lack thereof) of their nomination now. Since no rules were technically broken, you are unlikely to see any action taken against the user regardless of election outcomes, but there are a couple of things we can do before the next election:

  1. Make it compulsory for the user to submit a questionnaire with non-empty responses. In the (unlikely) event of someone responding to the questionnaire with chum, those can be reported as "joke nominations". We want to make sure nominees adequately convey what they stand for and what issues are important to them.

  2. Make comments available and within immediate eyeshot at all stages of the election. Comments provide additional helpful information, allow better clarity into the user's thought processes and help make more informed decisions by vetting candidates. Comment vote counts can be hidden if required.

Simple tweaks to an already pretty good system can go a long way in transparent and fair elections (especially to candidates) in the years to come.

3
  • 1
    "Make it compulsory for the user to submit a questionnaire with non-empty responses." Not sure this will increase the number of applicants if we require a filled questionnaire. Isn't not answering the questions also an answer? Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 15:29
  • 2
    @Trilarion if it were an answer but didn't answer the question, it should be flagged NAA :p
    – cs95
    Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 5:35
  • But that's special for Q&A, i.e. the production of meaningful content. Elections are political and producing words is not the same as producing content. If politicians would be paid by the amount of words they produce they would all be millionaires. I'd say that in this case no answer is a very clear answer. Commented Oct 20, 2021 at 5:48
16

It's a good observation. However, I think you are little bit fast to assume malicious intent. I'd say that it is quite possible that Stephen just remembered the last minute that he had forgot.

Your last point about being antidemocratic by following the explicit wording of rules but disobeying the obvious intent behind them is a valid point. However, it does require that it was done intentionally. And a philosophy that is (or perhaps was) strong here is "assume good intent until proven otherwise".

But the fact that you cannot post comments is an issue, but I think it's more of a problem with the rules rather than the candidate. The comment section should be open for a time period after the deadline.

2
  • 3
    Indeed, perhaps if there would be no possibility for comments putting you on the chopping block this person would have posted the nomination a lot sooner; I would have also been taken aback by the comments under Zoe's nomination to be honest, that might have been a trigger to make this decision.
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 9:55
  • 6
    "it's more of a problem with the rules than the candidate". I agree 100% with that! There should be at least a 1 week wait period between the nomination period and the election period.
    – Nike
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 19:26
15

There are other possible reasons for that. I submitted my nomination for an election on one of the other sites I'm involved in less than five minutes before the end of the nomination period; I wasn't trying to game the system, I was just conflicted about running at all because of what happened to Monica.

2
  • 3
    Did you half-ass the nomination, even though you had known full well from earlier election attempts how nominations work, and what content is required from a successful candidate? (Just to judge context/relevance here.) Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 16:01
  • 10
    @AndrasDeak I wouldn't say that it was the greatest nomination of all time, but I did put effort into it. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 16:19
9

Stephen Rauch said he was busy that day: that's good enough for me. He knows the system and wants to help: why would he be turned away from volunteering on this site? It is a very large turnoff to be presumed guilty of some perceived violation of ethics when in fact one is not at all. It is unfortunate that this question were created in this manner - instead of simply recommending a change to the rules to either

  • require posting all facets of a nomination
  • allow comments after the nomination deadline

The candidate in question wants to help out: he was aware of the deadline and met the requirements. I'm a heavy [end]-user of this site and appreciate interested volunteers. Bashing one of them that does want to help the community is a tough thing to see.

2
  • 2
    Nominations started on October 11th. Election started on the 18th. You, just like him and me, got a notification of both. He said he was busy because Mondays are always busy. To quote: "Mondays are the busiest day of the week, and I am not a fast writer". It's almost like he didn't have to write the full nomination on the day he knows is busy. There was a whole week to do so. And he's parcipitated in elections before. But I agree, his saying that he was busy absolves him of all responsibility 😌 Commented Oct 21, 2021 at 13:39
  • 9
    So .. don't vote for him. But painting him as "gaming the system" is an accusation that appears to be unwarranted. Commented Oct 21, 2021 at 14:02
-34

As you said in the comments:

elections are largely decided by uninformed swarms of users who see notifications on the main site telling them to vote.

Absolutely agree. I think general voting is a misguided approach. Many (if not most) voters' thought process will likely go something like this:

I see an only candidate with 40/40 score; my choice is clear. I'm giving my first priority vote to mr. Rauch, and I don't care whatever happened during nomination stage.

9
  • 21
    Err, what? You agree that "elections are largely decided by uninformed ... users", and yet you're going to base your decision solely on a single, flawed numeric metric? I am not trying to tell you that Stephen Rauch is a poor choice of candidate, but I feel that your answer is self-contradictory, and I think it represents the epitome of "uninformed" to not at least avail yourself of the information that was provided (e.g., his answers to a previous year's questionnaire), much less reading the other candidates' answers.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 7:45
  • 7
    @CodyGray I'm just vocalizing what I assume is a thought process of many if not most voters Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 7:52
  • 7
    I see. I still think this answer is confusing, then. Maybe you should consider rephrasing? It sounds like you are advocating this approach, rather than just describing what you think is an unfortunate reality (and consequence of displaying a nearly meaningless numeric metric).
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 7:57
  • 9
    So who is your second choice? The next highest candidate score? Why did I bother writing a nice nomination summary?
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 8:14
  • 2
    @Dharman I often ask myself that about the documentation I write for services built :)
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 10:13
  • 2
    @CoderinoJavarino I've rephrased the answer to what appears to be how you intended. Feel free to rollback or edit further if you think it doesn't reflect your point.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 10:41
  • I am not sure about uninformed swarms of users. Why would uninformed swarms of users bother to vote if they have not invested (time, mentally, or otherwise) in the site? For the stinking badges? (That page, by the way, leaks who voted and the exact time (resolution approx. 5 minutes) they voted (in a highly convenient place). As of 2021-10-19T164414Z+0, about 14500 users have voted (60 users per page, break at page 242 (is not stable))) Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 16:43
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen a bit like "don't go to this link or you will crash Wikipedia", people like to click buttons when given a choice. People also like when others ask for their input. It's very human to go vote, and people don't usually bother making informed decisions when they can make uninformed decisions (especially the users who don't want to invest time etc. in the site). I only have anecdata to back this up: a while back I saw a clearly joke candidate get startlingly close to being elected. I blame the masses. Commented Oct 19, 2021 at 17:37
  • @PeterMortensen I nearly considered voting. But then I realised I'm waaaay too ignorant of what Stack Overflow needs and decided I won't even visit the election page.
    – Clockwork
    Commented Oct 28, 2021 at 14:13

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