19

I think the answer to this question is No(t like this).

Based on my experience in review queues, we create more harm than good by letting low-rep question owners decide whether an edit is applied. If their posts need to be edited in the first place, they probably don't know how to format a question - how can we expect them to decide over an edit?

Furthermore, any edits by >2k rep users get applied instantly and at least 50% of what I see in the review queue (edits by <2k rep users) should be rejected. So it's not like the false-positive-rate is very low. Now, I don't think question owners generally shouldn't have any say about edits on their posts, but I suggest the following:

Question owners with low reputation can vote to approve edits to their questions BUT these votes are only counted as normal review votes. This ensures that at least some other, more experienced user looks at the edit before it gets approved. Up to which reputation threshold someone counts as low-rep is up for debate but I would suggest 125 as a starting point. However, question owners CAN reject vote any edit without further approval by others no matter their reputation.

This also removes the burden (I actually think most new users are overwhelmed by this task, e.g. My Stack Overflow question is in a strange state) from the question owner and relieves pressure off the moderators which are called into action if these edits are found and flagged.

Here are some bad edits approved by low-rep post owner to illustrate my point:

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    Interesting idea... I'm going to think on it before saying I agree, which is my first reaction :-) Second reaction: I think the OP should be given a "text box" where they could describe why they reject the edit. It is their question, after all... Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 18:30
  • 1
    One case that needs to be considered (but I have no opinion on it to provide answer): how to deal with edits that can only be approved by OP (i.e. significant code change) - they should be rejected by review but likely approved by OP... Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 18:57
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    @AlexeiLevenkov Should significant code change by someone other than the question owner themselves ever be approved? I can't think of an example
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 18:59
  • @leonheess Sometime there are solid good edits - i.e. one can edit wall of code into true MRE - it could be rejected by review (one needs to be expert in the topic to know if that's what being asked... and only "accept and edit"). OP on other hand can look and say "that's exactly what I wanted to ask" - approve! Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:03
  • @AlexeiLevenkov That is a good example! But the chance that this happens and the expert doing it is not over 2k rep is kind of an edge case of an edge case, don't you think?
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:06
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    I don't find your argument convincing enough to say "You're right, they shouldn't be able to just accept them," but I'm upvoting this because I think it's useful to discuss it and the question is presented well.
    – Davy M
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:09
  • @DavyM That's the spirit! My idea of solving this is just what I came up with on the spot and might be flawed. I'm certain this should be discussed tho.
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:11
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    If the owner doesn't have a binding vote they would still have the option of blindly copying the edits from the suggestion and making the edit themselves with no approval needed at all. Because they can blindly make any edit they want to their own posts I don't see what good preventing them from approving edits would do.
    – Joe W
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:16
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    @JoeW Of course they can! It is their question. They can, however, not "smuggle" edits past the review queues and hand out reputation for it. I also agree with Dharman here: Users get pushed to decide this and are overwhelmed by the task.
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:20
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    Maybe but shouldn't the focus be on preventing bad edit suggestions in the first place instead of preventing users from accepting edits to questions they posted? Afterall I would guess that the number of users with edit privileges that accept bad edits outweighs the number of users without it accepting them.
    – Joe W
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:34
  • @JoeW Again: Of course. But how would we prevent bad edits before they happen? Best we can do is check those that are suggested which, right now, is put on the backs of new users which lack the expertise for this task.
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 20:17
  • I would rather look at preventing bad edits than require more users to review good edits.
    – Joe W
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 20:39
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    @JoeW How are you going to prevent bad edits without reviewing them? o.O
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 21:07
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    THE TITLE AND THE BODY OF THIS POST ARE DIFFERENT QUESTIONS! I initially voted up based on the title - because yes, I absolutely agree that we should allow people with less than 2k rep to unilaterally accept edits. They might be wrong in doing so sometimes but other times they are correct. If anything, maybe there might be more guidance around this. At any rate, the body of the post asks whether post owners should not be allowed to accept edits - just act as an outsider. No, I absolutely disagree with this. Which way do I vote this post now?
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 7:48
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    Anecdotal account a question of mine on a different stack was edited to improve the grammar. To be clear, the edit was absolutely correct. Two reviewers rejected it for being too minor. I overruled them and accepted the edit after the rejection because correctness shouldn't be "too minor" an improvement. I have less than 1k rep on that stack - were this to go into effect, the only recourse I'd have is to make the edit myself. In this case - sure, easy enough. But what if it was more? And why should the editor be penalised?
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 7:49

3 Answers 3

9

I agree with this idea.

I believe that users <2000 reputation do not understand the meaning of suggested edits. They view it not as a proposal, which they should evaluate with a grain of salt, but as something that they have done wrong and another user had to fix. They do not know what it means when they approve the edit. This is basically blind leading the blind. This leads to some really bad outcomes. Let me give you an example of some of the worst ones:

If we do not let users with <2k review the edits, then we should also forbid the author from approving it. Only the authors with the Edit questions and answers privilege should have the unilateral power of approving/rejecting the edits to their posts.

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    This is basically blind leading the blind. I could not have put it better.
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 18:50
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    You might add to this that the post author relinquished ownership of the post under the CC-by-SA license, and is now owned by "the public". Thus, giving the individual who posted this a binding vote on any edits is at the least at odds with that.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 18:53
  • The author of a post can blindly copy and paste all of the changes from a suggested edit into a new edit of their own so what does preventing them from approving edits do other than add more work for reviewers who will now have to look at the suggestion?
    – Joe W
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:18
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    @JoeW They can, but when do they do that it is their decision. Whereas if an edit is suggested they think that this is the right way and they must accept. I would argue this would make less work for reviewers in the end. Right now we have to go through all the suggested edits which were approved by OP and check if they need to be rolled back or not. This is a manual task outside of the review queue.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:21
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    So it is their decision to manually redo potentially a lot of work to mirror an edit but it is not their decision to accept an edit to their post? Seems like a lot of work to change the review system when the real problem is the person suggesting the bad edit in the first place.
    – Joe W
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:33
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    @JoeW So what is your counter solution? How do we fix the problem of bad suggested edits, which get approved by the OP?
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:34
  • @JoeW They can still approve the edit and within minutes it will get applied. The review queue is fast and one vote is already down!
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:35
  • Work on keeping all the users with edit privileges who keep approving horrible edits from doing that so that bad editors can be prevented from making them? I would wager that the number of bad edits approved by other users outweighs the number of them approved by people who can't on their own posts.
    – Joe W
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:36
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    @JoeW Not from my experience. Usually they are approved by OP with or without rejection votes by reviewers. Finding two bad review decisions is more difficult than finding an edit approved by OP. Also, you can mod-flag such situation and they would get review ban, but how do you review ban OP?
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:38
  • @Adriaan "Thus, giving the individual who posted this a binding vote on any edits is at the least at odds with that." yet at the same time, we expect the poster to supply relevant information even if the public can reverse engineer it. Isn't that also at odds with the policy? Should we stop urging for a MCVE if we can produce one ourselves? In reality, even if the poster is not technically the "owner" in many respects we do consider them one. If "owner" is no to your liking, then you can call them the subject matter expert (SME) for the post. I think edits come under the purview of SME.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 8:12
  • I edited my proposal away from the 2k-limit to any limit at all. In case you still think this is a good idea you might want to reflect that in your answer as well (:
    – leonheess
    Commented Nov 17, 2020 at 14:23
20

You're looking at this from the wrong direction.

The OP accepting the edit doesn't really know that this didn't help much - they see some changes to bold text and they believe that a Good™ edit has been made.

I believe our path is more reactionary; any time we catch someone making bad edits, we should flag and get a moderator involved. The OP is truly both innocent and ignorant of this, and it's really up to human exception handlers to step in and play a more significant role here.

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    I would also argue that many (especially low-rep) users get presented with the choice to approve/reject an edit without understanding the concept at all. I actually think we'd ease their stress with this change, as stupid as this may sound. I know, I certainly would have been overwhelmed by this choice on my first question.
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 18:36
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    @leonheess: I never said anything about repealing the edits. I meant that the moderator would have a conversation with our editor buddy here. Besides, any mortal can roll back bad edits and I don't see why this isn't an option here when it's spotted.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 18:39
  • @leonheess you can always roll back the edit. Doesn't revoke the reputation that the editor received, but you can restore the post to the previous state Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 18:44
  • @psubsee2003 That's true but only if I come to spot it by chance. It doesn't show up in the review queue, so it is likely to not be spotted.
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 18:47
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    An edit can be revoked by a mod including the subsequent loss of the +2 rep gained by the approval of the edit suggestion @leonheess
    – Adriaan
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 18:49
  • @Adriaan I know, but first the bad edit has to found, reported and then steals precious time away from mods. Why fix when you can prevent?
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:04
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    So, we should wait until the barn has completely burned down and cooled off before we let the horses out? I mean this wouldn't even inconvenience new users or the OP much; they would simply need to wait for the process to complete before they'd see a beneficial edit take place. Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:08
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    What the flip side here. How many good edits are approved by the post owner that would otherwise need review by additional people and slow down the process? Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:10
  • @psubsee2003 I actually think: Not too many. Keep in mind it's only reviews by <2k users that are stalled and the review queue mostly only takes a few minutes aynway.
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 19:28
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    @leonheess: 'funnily enough' I was that moderator; I went in and reverted what bad edits could be reverted and applied an editing ban and a pile of review bans, because someone flagged this editor.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 20:01
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    @leonheess: there is a balance to be struck here: many good suggested edits also get insta-accepted without wasting community review time. On the flip side, this editor managed to continue longer than was necessary because reviewers were enabling the editor with bad reviews (and I'm not talking about <2k post owners here). It's unfair to blame newbie post owners in this! Don't be afraid to have this handled by us moderators, there are not that many bad editors and reviewers that we can't handle a few more of these.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 20:04
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    @MartijnPieters Yeah, I know because it was me who raised that flag. After seeing the flag had been marked helpful I went back, went through the edits again and realized that often the "culprit" was the question owner instead of the review queue. That's why I created this question.
    – leonheess
    Commented Jan 27, 2020 at 20:21
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    @MartijnPieters How long do these flags take to handle roughly? I tend to check user accounts to see how guilty they are and generally only flag the ones consistently making bad edits, but that still ends up being every few days, if you (mods) have to go through maybe 10+ reviews handing out review bans and edit bans it must take a fair amount of time Commented Jan 28, 2020 at 12:50
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    @NickA: we are fairly on top of the queue at the moment, I'd say we currently handle custom flags within a day or two, tops. But, it fluctuates, it depends on the number of active mods, the current flagging rate overall, the weather, the number of goats sacrificed, and the number of beer, chocolate, loose-leaf tea and other such comforting products that are within reach of those moderators at any given time. Or at least some of those factors.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jan 31, 2020 at 19:23
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    @NickA it’s not one of the time-consuming flags. It takes me a couple of minutes, we have good tools. It depends on the number of edits to check, at any rate.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2020 at 8:30
9

This suggestion would introduce inconsistency in SO system. Question owners can edit their questions as they wish without any need of approval. Allowing them to make any change manually, but preventing them from accepting suggested edits seems counter-intuitive to me.
If you think that they do not understand well enough how suggested edits work, maybe the message presented to them should be more descriptive? Something like

Some user suggested a change in your post. If you think it's an improvement, you can accept it and the change will be visible to everybody. If you think it does not improve your post, you can reject it and the change will not be applied. If you are not sure, you can leave it as it is and some experienced community members will take care of it.

The suggested edits you linked to did not degrade edited questions (at least not too much). The main harm that comes from such edits is that it wastes reviewers time. Removing a binding vote from question owner will result in more time spent by reviewers. Sure, bad editors will get stopped sooner, but the system will stop them anyway, sooner or later.

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