16

OK, do we really need all this in the Help Center?

This is called creating a minimal, reproducible example (reprex), a minimal, complete and verifiable example (mcve), or a minimal, workable example (mwe).

The use of “reprex” for Reproducible Example was inspired by Jenny Bryan’s reprex package for R.

You may have been told to include an MCVE – Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable examples is what they were referring to. MCVE was also the former name of the page you're reading now, occasionally misspelled as MVCE, before it was renamed to Minimal, Reproducible Example (sometimes called “reprex”, “min-reprex”, “repro” or just “example”).

This text doesn't add any value to the Minimal, Reproducible Example page. It just adds noise and confusion to an otherwise informative article.

I propose a simple change: just strike all of this text from the page.

17
  • 2
    In my opinion it is useful to keep the text, because people may be asked in comments to provide an example using either one of the abbreviations mentioned here, and if they end up on a page that does not mention the requested acronym then they may be confused and think the page does not apply or there is some error with the link or the people in the comments got it wrong etc.
    – Marijn
    Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 15:33
  • 3
    Considering this was changed to MRE from MCVE (which it had been for many years) just a few short months ago, I think it's appropriate to leave it in for a little while longer... Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 15:40
  • 3
    @charlietfl I also don't think they are particularly interested in history or acronyms, but if someone tells you "do X" and you are directed to a page that says "how to do Y" then you might be confused if you don't know that X and Y are the same thing.
    – Marijn
    Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 15:47
  • 1
    The reason MCVE is included is for historical purposes. I personally still use the term MCVE, mainly because of muscle memory, but also because it's a habit. It's probably also left as a reference for the many comments and posts that still reference MCVE. I'm guessing reprex is included because it was still used in the short time it was around, so some users might prefer that for their own personal reasons. Everyone wins? Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 16:02
  • 11
    I've never seen any of those acronyms actually used anywhere else than on SO and I doubt explaining them benefits anyone new to the site. Explain what we expect them to do, instead of introducing them to a bunch of esoteric TLAs.
    – ivarni
    Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 16:03
  • Couldn't agree more, just tell them what is needed rather than using an unnecessary and mysterious abbreviation! It's a barrier, I am sure.
    – MandyShaw
    Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 16:25
  • 2
    How about let's take a rest on all of the deletion for a while, yeah? Seems like we keep removing things and people get upset. HMP gets removed, people get upset. Comments get deleted, people get upset. Let's pause for a month or two. If you want to delete something, I'm sure there's plenty of questions and answers out there that can be deleted and no one will bat an eye :-). Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 18:25
  • 2
    @HereticMonkey: psh. People get upset anyway.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 18:29
  • 1
    @RobertHarvey Sure, but I for one could use a vacation from Meta Angst. But you know, still get my Meta Fix ;0). Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 18:30
  • 3
    I agree. First it gives three names, and second it says what the user should do. It emphasizes the names over the description. Does anyone need three abbreviations/names for this? It reminds me of volleyball in middle school where the first few days are learning the history of volleyball. (Did you know it used to be the inside of a basketball?) The stuff that doesn't matter distracts from the part that does. Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 23:35
  • 2
    I still disagree on the MRE being an intuitive abbreviation. If somebody is indeed familiar with "Meal, Ready-to-eat" and they go on a programming website and are asked for one, I can see confusion as a very likely outcome from that request. Why are people asking for food? To me this sounds about as clear as asking for a "trailer" of the problem - it's a short preview that shows the major details, after all.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Aug 14, 2019 at 6:52
  • 3
    @VLAZ: I'm not committed to any specific abbreviation. Given the problems we've had with abbreviations so far, I'd be more inclined to just get rid of all of them.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 14, 2019 at 14:22
  • 3
    I'm gonna need an example.
    – Someone
    Commented Aug 14, 2019 at 14:29
  • Is reprex used anymore? Just for fun: are there statistics of the real usages of these terms? Commented Aug 15, 2019 at 10:55
  • @Trilarion: reprex, mcve, mwe, sscce, mvce
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2019 at 14:26

3 Answers 3

21

Having twenty different terms/abbreviations for the same thing is far more confusing/unwelcoming than having a single standard term/abbreviation, regardless of how opaque said term/abbreviation may be.

In the context of stack Overflow, the standard term is MCVE (or its slightly retarded cousin, MVCE). It was established long ago, it's familiar to veterans and has fantastic SEO (seriously, just Google "mcve") so it should be easy for newbies to pick up.

Any and all other abbreviations/acronyms/BS should be killed with fire, then killed again with more fire, preferably by being dropped into the Sun. That includes MRE (try Googling that, even "stack overflow mre" comes up with irrelevance) or reprex (this is not R Overflow, it's Stack Overflow).

Once again, stop trying to make up solutions to nonexistent problems. Nobody cares if you don't like the standard and think you can come up with something better, because the legacy behind that standard almost certainly means your proposal will never get enough inertia to displace said standard.

One would expect that since this site is supposedly run by programmers they would know and understand how standards work, but apparently not - or perhaps it's more a case that in software an unwanted standard dies alone in a dark corner because nobody uses it, but on SO certain individuals with power are using said power to stroke their egos by getting their personally-favoured standards inserted into the mainstream. It's BS, it's unhelpful, and it needs to stop.

3
  • 5
    Obligatory xkcd Commented Aug 14, 2019 at 7:51
  • @ThomasSchremser Obligatory upvote.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Aug 14, 2019 at 8:49
  • 2
    One would expect that since this site is supposedly run by programmers they would know and understand how standards work -- Well, first of all, none of these abbreviations are standards, including MCVE. Programmers are a pedantic lot, and they work with names and abbreviations all day long, so their instinct to create an abbreviation for this shouldn't be all that surprising, even though it's clearly unnecessary.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 14, 2019 at 14:35
15

There are a few different problems here...

  • There are a lot of different names for what we're asking for here. Repro, test case, SSCCE, MWE, MCVE, Reprex... And as terdon notes folks did and still do use different terms when asking for it.

  • Before we had MCVE, folks referred to SSCCE - we chose MCVE largely to make a clean break from that, as our needs didn't cleanly align with the intentions of that guide. That worked! But unfortunately we chose a sequence of letters that lent themselves to transposition by folks who are used to typing "MVC" - and there are a lot of those folks around.

  • If we don't use the terms in the article itself, our on-site help center search won't find them.

For years, I just had a little footer with "MVCE" in it to address the search problem. That helped... But it didn't go far enough. As part of my belated research into naming, I realized that there were numerous places on Stack Overflow where folks were referencing or linking to the article under different terms. That's not only a problem for search, it's a problem for understanding: if you're sent to a page with instructions to write up an "MWE" or a "Reprex", and you don't see the term on the page... There's potential for confusion.

And the last thing we need is folks getting sidetracked by terminology when we need them to learn this stuff. So I think it's worth being clear about the naming problems up-front, so that folks can get past it and move on to the good stuff.

4
  • 7
    I prefer the little footer.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 16:27
  • 3
    Putting the terminology before the description does exactly that - it sidestracks users with terminology away from the stuff they need to learn. Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 23:39
  • I just had a little footer with "MVCE..." Did you mean "MCVE"?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 14, 2019 at 7:16
  • 4
    No, I added a footer with MVCE so that folks who misspelled MCVE could find it, @cerbrus
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 14, 2019 at 15:20
12

I think the text shouldn't be changed. It's useful because there are still loads of comments and probably answers or even questions scattered about the site that refer to MCVE, or MVCE, or MWE (although I haven't seen that one). The main point being that if I am a new user and see one of these weird acronyms, I would expect to be able to find it in the Help Center. So I think the text does add value.

Also, it's only there as an afterthought, all the way at the end and under a horizontal separator:

zoomed out screenshot of the relevant help center page

At the very least, this text doesn't seem to be doing any harm and it may be doing some good and helping folks who are trying to figure out the jargon we use on SE.

Let's leave it there.

0

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .