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I just finished looking through the 2019 Developer Survey and I was disturbed by how much of the focus was on gender. Up front are 11 questions in the demographics section with gender as a focus or stratification option, and several more in the other sections. The take homes:

  • Women suffer from feelings of inferiority (Feelings of Competence By Gender)
  • Women don't feel as welcome on here (Do Developers Consider Themselves Part of the Stack Overflow Community?)
  • Women have more feelings overall (Developers' Perspectives By Gender)

I know you are getting these answers from the surveys, but I am quite surprised at the narrative that is being implicitly built off those answers.

Personal Anecdote:

As a professional female developer, my biggest gender-related challenge at work is being taken seriously. It's not even a big problem since I work with awesome people and my work is appreciated. But it does come up, most often with the topic of how I express work-appropriate emotions such as frustration, irritation, and anger. I don't express them in the same way my male colleagues do and so sometimes it makes my co-workers uncomfortable and they act weird.

This reaction itself can be irritating. However, I figure I'm teaching them how to work with someone different than themselves, and I know it's not my problem if they don't like how my face looks when I'm frustrated. They can deal with it.

How this relates to the survey:

I think this survey could help reinforce the problem I've just described. My impression while reading it was that, once again, women are the "other". This survey and its takeaways re-highlight what tender little flowers we are that get our feelings hurt all the time. This isn't true. The whole problem is that people communicate differently and that one type of communication has been prioritized in programming for a long time.

The only question that got close to this problem was "Developers' Perspectives By Gender" and yet the word choices used came across as somewhat immature, suggesting younger or newer users. To me, it is immature (in its strictest definition - someone who hasn't had a lot of life experience yet) to assume rudeness of someone where directness was intended. Again this goes both ways - the way I express frustration about code not working is also not an indication of mental instability or weakness.

My actual question:

What, if anything, has SO done to reach out to professional female developers with experience? I would be interested to know what other women who use the site, and have 5+ years in the industry, think would be helpful towards this site's clear aim to be more welcoming to women. I don't need it to be any different - but someone, somewhere, obviously thinks there is a problem. If SO is going to try to "fix" this problem I would prefer they do it in such a way that doesn't push a really unhelpful narrative.

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    The best way to be more welcoming to women is to not specifically be more welcoming to women but to be equally welcoming to everyone.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 8:10
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    I'm not quite following your thoughts about the survey. Do you have a problem with the questions themselves, Stack Overflow's interpretation of the answers, the answers themselves (i.e. the state of the world), how others might interpret the answers, or something else? Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 15:21
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    @Dukeling thanks for asking. I could have been more clear. My problem is with the presentation and interpretation. When I answered the questions, I didn't know a priori that my answer for gender would be used for stratification of other answers. The decision to pull women out separately and present it to the world helps reinforce a refrain about women in the workplace that I have found, in my work experience, makes my life harder. I guess I would have preferred that the SO staff keep the demographic binning to themselves and use it internally to guide their business decisions.
    – HFBrowning
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 15:26
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    Or, barring that, I wanted some reassurance that they have done something to reach out to other women working in the field to help guide these kinds of decisions. A lot of the discussion about this topic (as well as the bizarre conversations on this very thread) to me seem very ad hoc, emotionally-driven, and designed by one group for the benefit of another, without including that target group's input. I wanted to know I was wrong. It seems I am at least partially wrong if SO is interviewing women as Shog9 says, which is something. And helpful to know.
    – HFBrowning
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 15:29
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    I actually wonder if they even looked at 2019 VS 2018. Why so much focus on women and minorities if the entire community feels much less welcomed since the Welcome Wagon? Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 18:25
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    Thank you for posting this. It's always nice to hear from someone in the actual group being discussed, rather than the usual virtue-signaling folks that think they know what's good for some other group.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 18:26
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    A data point to consider: Julia Silge worked on the survey results Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 18:34
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    "most often with the topic of how I express work-appropriate emotions such as frustration, irritation, and anger. I don't express them in the same way my male colleagues do and so sometimes it makes my co-workers uncomfortable and they act weird." Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm fortunate enough to work with quite a few software engineer women, none of them appear to express such work appropriate emotions in an alien way.
    – Krupip
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 18:38
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    "Be welcoming to everyone" sounds nice...but "everyone" hasn't been un-welcomed. Why would put resources into fixing an issue for everyone, when everyone doesn't have an issue? You wouldn't treat everyone for an illness if only people named Jill were sick, right? It would be nice to shoot for the goal of "everyone being healthy" but when there's a systematic issue that is targeted, the treatment needs to be targeted. Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 18:56
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    I should add that while SO has been toxic for women for a long time, it's unfortunately becoming toxic for everyone of late, which is really unfortunate because this has been a very solid community for a long time. Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 19:03
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    @KevinPanko while Julia, by all appearances, belongs in the target demographics, one individual does not amount to a consensus over a large group of humans. Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 19:11
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    This post is a perfect encapsulation of the issue. I'm a avid meta user, but some of the comments on here make it perfectly clear that we are divided as a community and that meta is getting yet more combative still, over everything these days. Why?
    – Magisch
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 6:31
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    @Magisch because we are forced to take a stance on issues we believe we shouldn't take a stance into. Also, there conversation is way too emotionally loaded. Check out the announcement of changes to the HNQ. There wasn't any whiff of negativity. Instead check out the welcoming thingy. One of them was something that the community wanted addressed, the other thing wasn't something we considered a bug but a feature.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 11:07
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    @Gimby Your comment is very much like #alllivesmatter, you're technically correct, but someone is raising an issue that needs addressing. What you are saying is women shouldn't get special treatment (because everyone is equal) however the current system supposedly does treat everyone equally, and is not working, hence the issue was raised. At this point, your comment risks coming across as "nothing further needs to be done to remedy the issue you've raised".
    – Troyseph
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 13:42
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    @HFBrowning I wanted to say that I really appreciated this post, and the idea as a whole that it drives forward. I hope I didn't misinterpret your intent in my answer. Thank you for being such an important part of "us." Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 15:01

5 Answers 5

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I wanted to comment on this:

The whole problem is that people communicate differently and that one type of communication has been prioritized in programming for a long time.

I don't know if that's the whole problem - these situations tend to involve a lot of distinct problems and folks just pick the ones that they feel they can discuss comfortably. But... It is definitely A Problem.

The same factors that make someone like me more comfortable on a SO-style Q&A site than in, say, Slack... Are undoubtedly making a lot of the folks who find themselves drawn to Slack supremely uncomfortable on SO. But why is this a problem? Let's go back to Stack Overflow's charter...

Programmers seem to have stopped reading books. The market for books on programming topics is miniscule compared to the number of working programmers.

Instead, they happily program away, using trial-and-error. When they can’t figure something out, they type a question into Google.

[...]

Jeff Atwood and I decided to do something about it. We’re starting to build a programming Q&A site that’s free. Free to ask questions, free to answer questions, free to read, free to index [...]

It's easy to forget, but that's still our goal here - to facilitate the transmission of good, useful information on programming. But right now, that only happens when the folks with that information are comfortable using SO-style Q&A. It doesn't happen when that information is trapped away in Slack, or in Twitter DMs, or SnapChat stories or whatever kids today are comfortable using. That information is effectively lost. And with it, the hope of saving all those folks typing programming questions into Google from a fate worse than reading books...

So yeah. We need to learn to communicate differently. I need to learn to communicate differently. And then we need tools to help other folks do so more easily, and ideally without being forced to use Slack until their eyes bleed from all the emojis.

But, you ask, enough about Shog and his problems with Slack - what do women say about Stack Overflow?

Talking to women about SO

Anecdotally, we've been hearing for years that some women feel uncomfortable participating on Stack Overflow... Or in the field of programming in general. And it's not a great leap to assume that the two are probably related in some way. Heck, over three years ago now, Yvette kicked off a fairly massive discussion about this - I'll leave you to read that at your leisure, but here's a particularly relevant bit:

When there is an even mix of men and women it is very different than when I am acutely aware of the lack of women, and am usually the only woman in all my sets of interactions on most days on SO. And I do become very defensive when I know there's a bunch of men and if I don't communicate well and then there's discussion, it quickly leads to me being very defensive. Is this your fault? No. Is it my fault, but I'm also doing my best, as it is really difficult. I'm making this appeal, so that the tiniest changes can be made to ease the way for women to come into the field and succeed.

This is something we've heard echoed over and over again as we've talked to women who want to participate on SO, but don't: they feel alone, surrounded by people who don't speak the same way, don't react the same way, don't have the same expectations... It's stressful and intimidating in a way that isn't as true for men.

We've conducted a bunch of these interviews over the past year to try to better guide efforts like this survey; we'll probably do a lot more before we're through. We've talked to recent grads, experienced professionals, self-taught and lots of variety in between. The population of people who don't participate on SO is enormous; there are no doubt countless reasons, and many of them aren't things we can or should address - but it is our mission to identify the problems that we can and should be fixing.

Not all women

I think it's safe to say that no one involved with the survey wanted to do anything to make women reading it feel patronized or "othered", or to imply that the experience on Stack Overflow is the same for all women. That doesn't negate your feelings upon reading it of course - but consider this: one value of a survey like this is to illustrate just how diverse the opinions and experiences are even within similar groups.

It is, frankly, dispiriting at times to read some of the results from these surveys. But there is hope too: through exercises like this we may become better informed about the needs and desires of the folks using these sites, and once again strive for that noble goal laid out so many years ago...

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    The focus on women and minorities is, IMO, distracting. The far bigger problem is that Meta & the SO culture is toxic and hostile in a way that makes everyone feel unwelcome. I am a white, male, senior developer and I never in my life encountered a nastier online forum than SO Meta. And I've been an open source developer for years. This place reminds me of Usenet in the 1990s. I expect that women/minorities are misinterpreting general nastiness as something racist or sexist, when it probably mostly is not. Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 4:53
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    Can I add that the world's a strange place? We still have recognised countries (by the UN) where they've only just got the idea that a "woman" can actually drive a motor vehicle. It's saddening. SO does its bits towards equality - but we must recognise SO can't shape the world -- but it tries its best and I've seen it trying to. (just a mod on the site - not official).
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 5:04
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    @JonClements, that would be more relevant if SO was dominated by men from those countries, rather than men from the United States and other western countries. Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 5:10
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    @AlexHarvey '[...] and I never in my life encountered a nastier online forum than SO Meta.' - First of all, that statement is unbelievably hyperbolic and within it is one of the reasons why so many new users get a bad reception, SO is not a forum, it is a Q&A site, a subtle but distinct difference. To address your quite frankly, ridiculous statement, you've turned to meta for many issues which may or may not have been resolved, however, after that, were you trolled? Doxxed? Insulted (I mean, offensively, not just disagreement)?
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 8:47
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    I highly doubt it, but, the aforementioned things are what happens on other forums. Can we stop flogging the dead horse in regards to making it seem as though SO is the most noninclusive place on the internet and that we've, by nature of our behaviour have made it such. This non-inclusivity drivel is just people hurt at the fact that their questions get closed because rules are enforced.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 8:49
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    Honestly, people should try to create a platform similar to SO while not enforcing the rules that SO has and see how that turns out. The amount of crap you'd have wade through to find a decent question or answer would be unintelligible.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 8:56
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    @Script47 My impression is that such a concept for a platform has been tried over and over without reaching a wide audience, which kind of speaks for itself.
    – E_net4
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 9:36
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    @Script47, you write (to others in this thread), "This non-inclusivity drivel is just people hurt at the fact that their questions get closed because rules are enforced"..."The amount of crap you'd have wade through to find a decent question or answer would be unintelligible". Do you think you could be any more dismissive? It is not surprising that you can't understand why others perceive an issue with inclusiveness. Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 10:21
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    @AlexHarvey You don't seem to understand, if you come out with statements to provoke, as you have done several times, expect to get dismissed. Also, what did I say wrong? IF another platform was created and they did NOT enforce rules like SO then you WOULD be wading through crap, that is FACT. Look through the queues that get handled by the curators and see the sort of stuff that gets closed, deleted, handled and see how "bad" it is, the only reason you don't see it is because it gets handled by people who care about quality.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 10:33
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    Again: 'It is not surprising that you can't understand why others perceive an issue with inclusiveness.' - You constantly throw accusations around based on assumptions when you clearly took two different comments out of context. In context, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. As for your opinion regarding my understanding, let me make it easier for you: Everyone should follow the sites rules, that includes the be-nice policy. The reason why I feel this won't help is that I don't see what else could be done. Rules won't stop people who want to be racists or sexist.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 10:42
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    @Luuklag Ironically, 4 years later after that post by Yvette, she is now a diamond mod with 20k+ rep. So there you go.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 11:28
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    What if we don't ask questions about gender/race/ethnicity on future surveys and just stick to programming topics? Commented Apr 10, 2019 at 18:05
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    @AlexHarvey no! Stop drawing assumptions where they don't exist. Where I differ is that I don't believe criticism is intrinsically "bad". I don't take it personally and I use it to learn and grow as a developer and more importantly, a person. Again, you are conflating criticism with nastiness.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 11:49
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    @AlexHarvey there we have it. Your issue is with the core premise of this site, that is, closing and anonymous down-voting. So my question to you is, should the whole site change to suit you? Why can't you fall into place with regards to how the system has ran and is being ran in the same way so many people before you have? People can masquerade this unwelcoming stuff however they want but the simple truth is this, it always tends to fall back to questions being closed or down-voted.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 12:53
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    Ok, yeah... I like having the discussion in public, but if it's just gonna be you two going back and forth all morning maybe take pity on my poor inbox and jump into the tavern?
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 13:21
3

In reading your question I'm seeing 3 main points:

  1. There is a disturbing amount of gender focus
  2. Women are treated as outsiders, or "the 'other'"
  3. You'd prefer that SO didn't push this unhelpful narrative

And your question as I'm reading it is: What, if anything, do female industry veterans think should be done to improve the way SO welcomes women?

I should first clarify that I have no minority status, so I'm in no way qualified to answer to your actual question. However as a I member of the SO user base, I am an important part of the enactment of any solution that may be found here. And as a member of the SO user base I resonated very strongly with what I understood your 3 main points to be. I feel those points provide a framework for giving some direction on how to welcome women, minorities, and really everyone. I've taken the liberty of distilling these points into 2 suggestions for SO as a whole:

1. Be welcoming to all users

I think Gimby's comment sums this up nicely: "Be welcoming to everyone." Women, and all minorities, are part of the SO user base, they should be greeted with the same hospitality we show to everyone. They should not be treated as outsiders, as I cite in your point 2. This throws slurs, and really derogatory comments toward anyone, right out. Such comments are an insult against the user base as a whole; because women and minorities are insiders, or part of "us". (As an aside I've been really proud of the SO leadership in driving this directive forward this year.)

2. Eliminate focus on gender, or minority status

I agree that the focus on explicit protection of females, and other minority groups, delivers the unhelpful narrative I cite in your point 3. These groups are not presented as part of "us", not some "tender little flowers." I'm seeing 2 primary problems with this: 1st it plays what I've cited as your point 1 and it enforces fragmentation; the removal of women, and minorities, from us. 2nd It feeds the perception of reverse-racism where one group, minorities, get special treatment over "us." (I should clarify that there is no actual preferential treatment offered by SO, just an unhealthy focus.)


I'd like to close this post by stating how much I appreciate you driving forward what I feel is a healthy cultural perspective on women in the SO user base. I have a young daughter who is wonderful at math, and I'm really hoping to encourage her into Computer Science. I'd like to think that she'll be a part of SO, and the industry as a whole; and will be seen as part of "us."

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    'I should first clarify that I have no minority status, so I'm in no way qualified to answer to your actual question.' - This is a fundamental mistake in our thinking. Why is it assumed that you aren't qualified to answer a question because you aren't apart of a minority group? For example, and a rather extreme example, do I have to be a jew from the holocaust period to empathise with their situation and describe the feelings they must have felt? Absolutely not. It is precisely this sort of thinking that creates echo chambers.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 15:10
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    I would like to emphasize that part of rationale for focusing on underrepresented groups is that a lack of presence of a particular group can act as a deterrent for getting more of that group to participate. If I'm the only [insert protected class] in a setting, I'm not necessarily going to feel part of that community. It's kinda Catch 22, which is why focusing on welcoming minority groups has some merit. Obviously this shouldn't take all the bandwidth of development focus, but just leaving it alone can leave such groups marginalized and cut into the overall size of a userbase.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 15:19
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    @ryanyuyu 'If I'm the only [insert protected class] in a setting, I'm not necessarily going to feel part of that community.' - I guess this is the biggest contention I have. I believe, from my experiences, that SO is color blind / gender blind. You are merited for good content and punished (sounds too harsh?) for bad content. Period. Your "feeling" of being apart of this community is down to your contributions and I sincerely believe that. Anything else is your misjudging / assuming the motives of the community which is nothing but speculation.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 15:26
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    @Script47 As a member of at least one minority group, I'd first like to confirm that SO is pretty good at being the meritocracy it claims to be. But no one (and no system) is perfect, and it's naive to think that the users don't have unconscious bias based on cultural influence that leak into their interactions on SO. SO users are still people. Also, by selection bias I do feel like part of the community (else why would I be on meta). This comment is for all the potential users who don't feel included.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 15:31
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    I would like to upvote this 1000 times. SO does not have problem in particular with women or any other groups. Personal feelings cannot be denied, but that is all they are: personal feelings. Something bad happens, and people will jump to all kind of conclusions that it happened because of this or that, while in fact it did not. Emphasizing wrong problems - that women (or any other group) have more problems participating in SO, will only make that imaginary problem worse. I say imaginary because most of the developers I know that are reluctant to participate are experienced white males.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 12, 2019 at 7:57
  • @Script47 I do agree with your comment, and have modified my statement somewhat. While I still see myself as not addressing the actual question, I do see myself as addressing the fundamental barriers to being more welcoming to women. And this should at least provide a foundation for any improvements deemed necessary. Commented Apr 12, 2019 at 12:54
0

The things that I take away from this discussion is that:

  • Participants that don't consider themselves to be (straight) white males [1], the majority of the SO users, often feel misunderstood and alone.

Now there are a few things off my head that I can think about to "resolve" part of these issues, but am I in the right spot to voice my opinion being one of the majority? Usually one of the arguments in these debates is that we (straight white males) are not, but nonetheless I'll give it a go. I hope no one takes offence at my honest attempt to improve the SO life, and if you do please let me know. I'm more than willing to remove my post if needed.

Feeling alone on SO
For me feeling alone usually entails that I don't find people I identify with around me. If we generalize that to women on SO, I don't see them around that much, and heck I can't blame them. I saw the comments some of us leave on posts from profiles that go with a photograph of a woman as their avatar. It definitely ain't pretty.

I know we get rid of this garbage quickly, but in almost all cases the damage is already done and the comments are read by the one it was addressed to. And quite frankly I can't blame anyone for not wanting to show that they are a woman on SO. Unless we can find a way to stop anyone and everyone from leaving these comments, as unfortunately some can't find the decency to treat others with the respect they deserve, I don't expect women to make their profiles identifiable as such.

Only the quality of your posts count
Now I know there are people who think that it is only the quality of the things we post that should count, and I was stuck in that paradigm for a long time as well. But reading posts like this makes me think twice about that. Quality is in the eye of the beholder, and that is where things start to go downhill. What the concept of quality entails for me, one of the majority, might not be the same for anyone from a underrepresented group. I think we can all agree that a factual post with a correct answer is something we strive for. But quality is not only in the code in a post, but also in the way we write a post, in the way we communicate. And frankly no two groups communicate the same, hence we can easily feel misunderstood.

Language
There is an underlying assumption under what I covered so far, which is we all speak the same language. And yes we all speak English here on SO. But my, non-native, English isn't the same as your (non-)native English. And as I like to think my English is decent, there are others that struggle a bit more, and we can often feel misunderstood simply by this fact.

Getting yourself out there Now I could simply shout that everyone that doesn't identify themselves as a straight white male should let themselves be found as what they identify. Which is easy for me to say as part of the majority group. I think we should strive for a SO where this can happen, but for now I'm at a loss. We want people to not feel lonely, but we can't really provide the safe haven in which people can show who they really are and let others know that they are not alone.


[1]: Lets not generalise into women only, but lets take into account all groups under-represented on SO

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  • "...What the concept of quality entails for me, one of the majority, might not be the same for anyone from a underrepresented group.... but we can't really provide the safe haven" But we could, I guess, kind of create a "white-male SO" (the existing one) and a "everything else safe haven SO". That may be one potential solution if you already say that quality in in the eye of the beholder. The other way is to try to become more inclusive, which is what I think SO currently tries but the inertia/resistance is rather big. Such changes probably take some time and lots of effort. Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 8:48
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    @Trilarion I'm genuinely baffled by what you said, what does "white-male SO" even mean? As for the "resistance", I don't think anybody is against being more "inclusive", I think they are against the push of being "inclusive" ("welcoming") at the expense of quality.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 10:53
  • @Script47 You are really baffled? White male and SO are common terms by themselves and combining both should mean something like an SO where users are predominantly white male. Doesn't it? Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 10:57
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    @Trilarion but... what has that got to do with anything? That's why I'm baffled, I don't see how the "white-male SO" is such a problem. If I get my answer from a white person or a black person or a pink person, why should that matter? That same question, can be posed for questions too, who cares who's asking? What is wrong with having a predominantly white site? Are we here to play identity politics or curate high quality Q&As through which all can benefit from, freely? The content is the important part, not who's contributing.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 10:59
  • @Script47 I guess I understand you now. You probably disagree with this answer then. I started from "..What the concept of quality entails for me, one of the majority, might not be the same for anyone from a underrepresented group..", which would mean that the representation of the content matters too. In the end, it may be somewhat subjective what high quality Q&A actually is and how to best contribute to it. Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 11:24
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    Like it or not, male privilege and majority privilege are real things. Survey says: Native-English-speaking men are the majority on SO. That makes it easy for us to assume our outlook goes beyond normal to normative. That is, we fall into the trap of measuring other peoples' attitudes about quality as if ours are correct, and theirs aren't. You mentioned that there's more to a community than the quality of posts. You're right!
    – O. Jones
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 11:55
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    @O.Jones well, it's a english speaking site. If you go to es.SO or to pt.SO, or to jp.SO, I am willing to bet that demographics may be different.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 12:50
  • "...(straight) white males [1], the majority of the SO users..." Is that known? Is that part of the developer survey (never taken it myself)?
    – ouflak
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 13:41
  • @ouflak both ethnicity and gender are selectable, yes.
    – Magisch
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 14:03
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    @Script47 I was just as baffled by the comment from Trilarion. I think he has his analysis sound, however his solution is way off, into being racist/sexist. To go further into the concept of quality. Its not about the content of the message (the code, the solution) but the way it is presented. Some people value the bits some of "us" call noize, and seeing those getting edited out hurts them, and might make them feel unwelcome. So as of today I decided to stop removing salutations from posts, period.
    – Luuklag
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 18:34
  • @O.Jones : regarding "ours [attitudes about quality] are correct, and theirs aren't" - let's make it a bit more practical. how do men and women differ in their attitudes towards quality? do you have an example of a question that is good from a male point of view but bad from a female point of view? Or vice versa? To be honest: I'd be very surprised if anyone can come up with a decent, practical example. And if you cannot provide an example, the whole point becomes irrelevant.
    – Michael
    Commented Apr 12, 2019 at 16:04
-6

I think almost everything that could have been said here has been said. But still I want to make a suggestion on how SO can support women in the industry. It's just a small thing but I think a women coders chatroom could be a nice thing.

I am aware, that this to some extent enforces a certain level of exclusion, however that's not nessecarily a problem. I absolutly agree that the discussion needs to be an open one and male developers need to be involved. However it is a simple fact, that women are a minority in the coding industry and it will take a long time for this to change. Meanwhile you can make the best out of it.

Let me outline the advantages I see for such a group:

  • Beeing in a minority can be challenging if you are feeling alone. So while this might be the case at the workplace it doesnt need to be the case on SO. While here are relativly few women, in absolut number there are many. So utilise this and exchange yourself about challenges and solutions regarding how to address the problems implied by beeing a minority. This ultimatly makes the group stronger and can positivly impact our environment for both women and men.
  • A smaller group can help you to be more open minded, talk more to people from different backgrounds, both personanlly and professionally. This can make you a better person and a better coder.
  • and finally it can be fun.

Summarising: While the discussion needs to be open and men not only need to get used to women as team members but also value, women in the team, an internal perspective can contribute to this change. And I belive that SO is a platform that can supply an environment to help women become stronger and ultimatly overcome the differences. After all, its sad but true, that in cases of suppression/discrimination/etc. mostly the suppressed group needs to work harder on a change than the surpressing group

5
  • 8
    IMHO, I'm not sure giving minorities exclusivity will make us more inclusive, rather, it might divide us further. If the goal is to make people color blind / gender blind then I don't think this exclusivity will help.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 12, 2019 at 9:24
  • 1
    Well ultimatly, this might be true, but this is a long long way to go (and I am not sure if this is desirable to 100% but anyways). Menawhile, any supprt can help. ANd also i want to point out that the exclusive part is not a substitute for an open discussion/ a process for finding a solution that involves everyone.
    – Lucas
    Commented Apr 12, 2019 at 9:31
  • 1
    I understand where you're coming from, that being said, 'any support can help' can also lead to detriments in the future. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't rush into something to try and solve a problem and as a result, create more problems.
    – Script47
    Commented Apr 12, 2019 at 9:51
  • 1
    Anyone (with a certain amount of rep?) can create a chat room I believe.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 12, 2019 at 12:48
  • @Lundin Yes, they can, but Im neiter a woman nor have I the required rep, after all it was just a suggestion :)
    – Lucas
    Commented Apr 12, 2019 at 12:53
-9

I mostly ask questions, I don't use Meta (which appears to have a life of its own).

I don't particularly care about the age, gender, sex, skin color, religious creed, political bias, __________, or whatever characteristic of the person who answers. Most of the time I don't even read the names. I still think that on the Internet no one knows you're a dog.

All I care is that I get a polite (and this is subjective, as someone pointed out we don't all speak the same language even though we all use English); informative, clear, well-documented, technical, competent, informed answer.

Most of the times I do get such answers and this is why I like Stack Overflow; sometimes my questions go unanswered -I don't feel left out, it's life in the Internet- sometimes I can even contribute, which is great.

It seems as though all this fuss could easily be generated replacing "women" with whichever is the trendy "minority" these days. This is a technology-oriented site, the social aspect should be irrelevant (I'm sure there are other Stack Exchange sites for that).

Why Stack Overflow decided to discriminate in this year's poll is beyond be - again, I don't frequent Meta, I'm just an average user. It does seem like an exaggerated signal-to-noise ratio on something that on this site should be a non-issue.

8
  • 8
    I liked your first three paragraphs, then you drifted off. Sad :|
    – hellow
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 13:35
  • 6
    I don't see discrimination in polls tbh. Polls about specific demographic groups are done all the time, and there's no obligation to investigate all categories evenly or even at all. The whole point of this exercise is to find interesting and valueable data for SO to interpret, it makes sense they'd focus on underrepresented group.
    – Magisch
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 13:49
  • 4
    I started reading this thinking "ah, an echo of my thoughts", but then it went a bit sideways. I really don't see the need to ask about sexuality or race in a poll for a Q&A developer site (I'm on the fence about gender). It's very politically correct, sure, and it's certainly big issues in the world. But on here, on SO, we're perceived through our avatar, nickname and score. I don't see myself as belonging to any specific group. If anyone feels unwelcome, or treated badly, this should be dealt with of course. Do we need to categorize it?
    – Mackan
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 14:25
  • 12
    Probably worth noting that we've caught flak for years over the representation of women in the survey - specifically that because a higher proportion of males respond to the survey than would be indicated by the general population of working programmers, any conclusions drawn from the results are suspect. It's a valid criticism (though hardly the only source of skew, it's a big and obvious one), and feedback that we've taken extra care to try to listen to this year; we're not doing it to be trendy or hip, we're just trying to do right by the folks who take the time to participate.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 14:27
  • @Mackan sums up what i said it less characters.
    – vesperto
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 15:04
  • 1
    @Shog9 the "trendy" bit comes from the fact that there's been a lot of attention on women lately in the news, starting with #metoo, but i see your point, thanks for the clarification.
    – vesperto
    Commented Apr 11, 2019 at 15:07
  • 4
    @vesperto the #metoo movement and recent surge in efforts to achieve a more equal place in the world for women is not a "trend" anymore than the civil rights movement was a trend, or the women's suffrage movement, or the abolition of slavery, etc. (of course these are all US-centric events whereas #metoo itself is worldwide). These things may be trends in that lots of activity starts happening in that direction, but they are not "trendy" as in "a passing fad".
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 12, 2019 at 13:59
  • @TylerH those were/are all important milestones in society and, to an extent, they're ongoing processes. By trendy i mean that most of #metoo is not actual serious content but just noise. Yes these issues exist and should be tackled, most of what i see though is just attention-craving. And now i see that if "anything" can even remotely be framed as women vs men then it's immediately blown out of proportion 'cos #metoo. That's noise and it won't help. Maybe i didn't convey my thoughts well but, meh, English is not m native language.
    – vesperto
    Commented Apr 18, 2019 at 8:50

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