-74

Background. I'm a woman, I don't hide that fact and I also have opinions, just as you do.

There's been a total of 3 female candidates in Stack Overflow elections; I'm the third, I ran last year. This is relevant as this answer to this question is dedicated to my candidacy from the last election.

I want to clear up a few things.

Fact 1. I want to run as a moderator on Stack Overflow, because I'd love to be a moderator. I'm a moderator on Pets.SE and I enjoy it! This fact has nothing to do with my gender.

Fact 2. I think it would be good to have women represented among the moderators of the site.

How are these linked? These two facts are independent of each other, but the first one does support my second opinion.

From how I see it there's some undercurrents here that are not logical, but reveal an emotional reaction, as opposed to a logical discussion - read the comment threads to make up your own mind.

Screenshots of post and comments in question.

Answer + comment thread screenshot 1/3
Answer + comment thread screenshot 2/3
Answer + comment thread screenshot 3/3

The elephant in the room - positive discrimination. One issue as I see it is some people will positively discriminate and vote for me because of my gender and there seems to be some uncomfortability with this fact. No amount of campaigning and complaining will change how people vote, people will vote for whatever reasons they see fit.

Yes, voting because of my gender and not on my merits as a moderator is something to be concerned about, however positive discrimination still takes into account a person's merits and it does not mean I wouldn't be a good moderator.

So this issue prompts the following questions:

  1. Do you want me to change my avatar to something gender neutral and change my username to remove any advantage I have as a woman?

If not:

  1. Given it's obvious I am a woman, why is there a problem with me giving my opinion with reference to the fact I am a woman?

  2. Is it a bad thing to want to inspire women to program?

39
  • 59
    Yvette, please take a step back, think this through and then come back. You're completely taking that question out of context. To be (very) blunt, it's the same "knee-jerk" reaction you've had in the past, that I'm seeing here.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 8:33
  • 26
    Bugs made care not to mention you, specifically. He's asking about the general theme of nominees using their gender as a pro/con in an election. This isn't where that discussion ends, because as I've said a bazillion times before, Stack Overflow is not the place for a gender debate.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 8:37
  • 10
    I'm acting all outraged? Yvette, "please take a step back, think this through and then come back."
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 8:43
  • 13
    @Cerbrus: Can we just let Yvette and others have the discussion now?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 8:45
  • 18
    @BoltClock: Preferably, no. There's no discussion to be had here. Yvette is once again forcing a gender issue onto the site, in a place where we shouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 8:46
  • 7
    @Cerbrus Meta is the place for discussions. It's fine to dislike the discussion. You're not forced to participate. But it's not really fair to drag this out into a shouting match over why they've decided to start the discussion.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 8:48
  • 12
    @Cerbrus: It's going to happen sooner or later (it already happened the moment Bugs made that post), and there's not much you can do about it. My advice to you is to just do your best to ignore this Q&A entirely. Let those who want to talk about it, talk about it. Don't feel like you have to join, or be dragged, in.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 8:48
  • 44
    The compilers and linkers don't care about gender. Users get three pages of error-messages irrepective of their sex. Since the tools don't care in this technically-complex field, I don't see why we should either. Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 8:48
  • 52
    New mod question: "Some users just can't get used to the fact that this site is about questions and answers and not about the people that post them. How do you deal with them?" Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 9:03
  • 15
    Why are we wasting time on such a piss poor election question? Even if it was specifically about you (I'm not convinced it is), the community has shown its dissatisfaction by heavily downvoting it. Why legitimize it by further discussing it here? Just downvote it and move on, let it die in obscurity.
    – yannis
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 10:32
  • 32
    @YvetteColomb The thing is, it's not a big deal. It's just a crap suggestion for an election question, that had no chance of making it to the top 8. It only became a thing after you brought extra attention to it, without good reason (in my very humble opinion). If elected, you'll get exposed to way more offensive stuff than this. I'm very sceptical you can handle that, given your excessive (again, in my very humble opinion) reaction to something that isn't worth more time than it takes to downvote it.
    – yannis
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 10:48
  • 32
    You mention that you think it would be "good to have women represented". Should every group have their own moderator? Should we have an Irish moderator, a Buddhist moderator, a gay moderator, a trans moderator, an atheist moderator, a Caribbean moderator, a moderator who has been wounded in combat, a moderator who can complete the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs, a moderator who needs 18 parsecs to complete the Kessel Run because of a disability, or a moderator who attended Northwestern Lake District High School before 1990 but who was NOT selected for the football team? Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 14:48
  • 6
    Given that the SO yearly survey had 5 possible answers for the question "What is your gender?", I think discussing gender moral panic on SO might be perfectly in order. Now the real important question here is: what gender does the horse in your avatar identify itself as? I plan to cast moderator votes solely based on that.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 14:49
  • 9
    @RobertColumbia (And Lundin) arguments here are degrading fast. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the quote you've chosen, I too think it would be "good to have women represented", that doesn't mean gender will factor at all into how I vote, or that I would ask others to vote along gender lines. It certainly doesn't follow that every group should have moderator representation, Yvette didn't say or imply that. I'm not taking either side of this debate, but bad debating is something I feel obligated to call out.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 15:14
  • 10
    @meagar If the origin of the debate is making a hen out of feather, where the original topic had nothing to do with feathers in the first place, how can you expect "a good debate" to come out of it? This whole thing is a non-issue - anyone thinking we must have "gender debates" on SO should start by examining their own prejudices in the first place.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 15:42

6 Answers 6

52

The moderator question that sparked this debate is bad for two reasons.

  • it was clearly designed to sniff out those who may hold the view that gender representation is relevant. Whatever your position on the gender debates, that's wrong and petty.

  • it forces every moderator candidate to take a stance on a hot topic issue that has important and overdue elements but also disingenuous, authoritarian, and divisive ones and frequently brings out the worst in people on all sides of the discussion (cf. Twitter).

It should not become an official question for moderators and was rightly downvoted.

To try and answer your specific questions:

  • that you shouldn't hide your being a woman while running for moderator is obvious.

  • discussing the possibility of positive or negative discrimination here seems a bit fruitless. Both are going to occur and I don't believe that Meta discussion will change either. The best we can hope for is that most people won't fall for either but judge you as best as can on your moderating abilities. (FWIW, I don't think for a moment that positive discrimination is actually a big, needle-moving issue in this election.)

  • moderator candidates should be perfectly free to voice their opinions while running for moderator (within the confines of civilized discourse, but that's obviously not an issue here.) It's a free country. It's for the community to decide whether they want someone with those opinions to be a moderator.

    Personally, having attended a U.S. college quite recently and seen people use the gender debate and other topics in very disingenuous and disagreeable ways... a candidate's statement invoking gender is likely to make me look a bit more critically at them and take an extra close look at their track record. I wouldn't be surprised if others reacted this way, too.

    So from a purely vote-optimizing perspective, it might not be a good idea to bring it up. But if it's something you believe in, and you believe is relevant to the site or this election, you have to say it and it would be wrong to expect you to hide it.

3
  • 2
    thank you - really good answer. The more diverse answers the better. We can then agree to disagree and put this issue to bed. If people can comment and post answers here and not drag it all over meta and into the election it will be a positive thing - we can move on with what we all love - looking after the site.
    – anon
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 10:17
  • 7
    +1, the phrasing of the question was incorrect, instead of asking about what one believes, it could have asked for past actions, e.g. "Are you a militant activist that has brought political issues like gender discrimination on unrelated platforms such as Stack Overflow?". Prior actions are what makes a good candidate, not abstract beliefs IMO.
    – user000001
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 10:21
  • 14
    @user000001 that wouldn't have made a good question either. If an individual candidate did something we don't like, the right place to bring that up is in the comments in the election, rather than in passive-aggressive, leading moderator questions.
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 11:07
39
  1. Do you want me to change my avatar to something gender neutral and change my username to remove any advantage I have as a woman?

No. I'd argue that the assumption women have an advantage in these elections is false. Gender is irrelevant for a moderator, and as such, shouldn't be a selling point.

Sure, one can state what gender they identify as, but I'd advise any nominee not to say: "Vote for me 'cause I'm a <insert gender here>".

  1. Given it's obvious I am a woman, why is there a problem with me giving my opinion with reference to the fact I am a woman?

Because gender doesn't matter. It doesn't need to be pointed out. It doesn't need to be discussed in a nomination. You are you and that's what matters. Not the label that's applied to the nominee.

  1. Is it a bad thing to want to inspire women to program?

No. But that's not really relevant to the whole election. We can't inspire people to program from a programming Q/A site. That's something that has to happen earlier, during their education. Stack Overflow is generally visited by people that are already into programming (to some extent).

7
  • 4
    @Cerbrus I fundamentally agree with you, we can't even know what actually gender one is (I'm a unicorn, prove me wrong). However I think a moderator candiate can write what they like as long they comply with the be-nice policy Hence we can't forbid Vote for me cause' I'm a Unicorn . Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 9:16
  • 3
    @PetterFriberg: Sure, we can't forbid it. But asking for sympathy votes like that usually doesn't have a positive effect.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 9:17
  • 2
    well that's on the moderator candidate, not some official meta policy Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 9:18
  • 14
    Honestly, I fail to see the problem in saying even "vote for me because of my gender". It's a free country. Let the community decide if it's something they like for a moderator candidate to say or not. (Personally, it would nudge me towards looking at the candidate a tad more critically and take an extra close look at their track record, because it feels weird for a candidate for any office to highlight an immutable characteristic like that. Wouldn't be surprised that's the default reaction for many people.)
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 9:20
  • 1
    @Pekka웃 / Petter: I've slightly updated that part of the answer. Of course, what the candidate writes is up to them. It's not a rule, just my personal suggestion.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 9:22
  • 7
    I'd think if we want to encourage women to get into software development we should specifically ban them from being moderators. What would a new female programmer think, seeing a woman being berated as a Nazi who has guns in there hands, being cursed at and called terrible things in retaliation to closures or suspensions? They might think "well, I'm not welcome here", which would be counterproductive.
    – user1228
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 18:44
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 11, 2018 at 4:17
19

Yvette, firstly I'm sorry if you feel targeted. That was not my intention.

The question was inspired by gender being brought into the election last year. Whether or not it was you who did it is really of no concern to me. It's in the past and I would have been very interested to see the response from the running candidates in this election. It was not constructed to harm anyone, but to provide an opportunity for people who feel it is important to discuss their views. It really is as simple as that.

The question was poorly worded, I'll admit that. Next year I'll steal Petter's question.

1
18
  1. Do you want me to change my avatar to something gender neutral and change my username to remove any advantage I have as a woman?

No. You are who you are. There are other SO profiles where people has used a picture of their own as avatar. But there are also other SO profiles around with a different avatar. Look to mine. It only represents the food culture of my country. I really do not care about the avatar. It is more about what you are doing to contribute to SO.

  1. Given it's obvious I am a woman, why is there a problem with me giving my opinion with reference to the fact I am a woman?

Look, the world ain't perfect. There is always a group males that performs misogyny or another group females that performs misandry. I agree that your gender has to come from far, but please do not misuse emancipation in that way. It is becoming a discussion about political correct-ism IMHO. For me, the #metoo campaign is a good sign. It shows that each woman deserves to be treated with equal values as a male.

  1. Is it a bad thing to want to inspire women to program?

No. Hell, I encourage diversity in many things. When I did my university courses, there were barely woman in colleges. Out of 60 people in my last years before I got my master diplome, only 3 where female. It is not a secret that the male presence in the IT sector is very high. Lots of friends/student-colleagues/professors knows about my stance concerning having women in IT: they are welcome. (I have to admit that it made me popular among many women in engineering/science departments)

But that should not lead to use your gender as part of the SO moderator elections. I care about the content, the activities of the person, what they have contributed to SO. Of course there will be individuals that care about the person, but it is their choice. I want to point on what you have said:

some people will positively discriminate and vote for me because of my gender and there seems to be some uncomfortability with this fact.

Then further:

Yes voting because of my gender and not on my merits as a moderator is something to be concerned about, however positive discrimination still takes into accounts a person's merits and it does not mean I wouldn't be a good moderator.

Be aware that "positive discrimination" is still a form of discrimination.

2
  • My point isn't really about whether or not positive discrimination is a good or bad thing - but that is does happen. This is from the feedback from the last election. I'm a little confused about but please do not misuse emancipation in that way. I'm unclear what you are meaning. Much of what you say is good. I also want to make it clear - I'm a feminist, but I love men. I think some people assume that a feminist hates men - not at all, it's about understanding the struggles of being female and trying to educate and elucidate - easier said than done.
    – anon
    Commented Mar 7, 2018 at 9:58
  • 2
    your avatar makes me hungry...
    – NH.
    Commented Mar 14, 2018 at 16:59
0

The other answers have covered in length the questions posed by the OP in the body of the question regarding the validity of worries expressed about becoming a moderator as a woman, I just feel the title question also needs to be answered.

What can we do to resolve debates about gender?

Gender debates shouldn't exist in the first place as mentioned in other answers, however, if they do ever begin, there is a really great way to resolve them. Just stop replying.

The wonderful thing about Stack Overflow is that it is a Question and Answer site, not a message board. So if you ever find yourself in a comment war about whether gender matters for doing x, or someone claims that men/women are worse or better at y, etc., you can just close the tab and not look back. Since this isn't a traditional social network (there aren't friends or followers or private messages), then when you leave a comment, the person can't keep following you. If they start to post things about the debate you were having that you left in another area, it's off topic and you can report it as such.

Questions about gender that provoke debate (Actually, basically any question that provokes nothing but debate) will eventually get closed as opinion based, and answers that are just debating are likely to not really be an answer to the question at hand and will probably get deleted in time.

So debates, especially debates about gender, can be resolved just by leaving the page, and the rest of the site is safe from the debate. When things are off topic for stack overflow, like an nonconstructive opinionated debate, just flag them, don't fuel the debate by arguing.

-2

When I am developing software, the IDE, the compiler, the OS, whatever, really doesn't care about my gender. Also, when asking or answering questions on SO, no-one reading my questions and answers cares about my gender, just as I don't care about anyone else's gender. At no point on SO have I ever revealed mine, it is irrelevant, because, basically, programming works the same whatever your gender.

Moderators might, from time to time, be asked to clean up or remove sexism on SO. I assume they do a good job because I've never seen anything sexist on SO myself. The ability to to this, and other parts of the moderator role, has no baring on gender.

You must log in to answer this question.